I cannot argue with the use of a proper mono cartridge, but that is not what the OP was asking about.
And if the avoidance of surface noise is the prime consideration, then proper record cleaning is the sine qua non.
As for satisfying MC sound with a $600 price limit, I doubt if there is a good answer. Any MC at that price is probably (here goes!) inferior to an MM/MI of the same price. I admit I have not dabbled in cheap MC cartridges, but I have gone up into the realms of 3-4k MC cartridges to find competition for good MI cartridges, and 5k before I was convinced I had found something superior.
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Why would a spherical stylus be safer for LPs? Maybe in part because zenith error is not an issue. Safer yet is to leave your valuable LPs on the shelf. Don’t play them at all! This is getting ridiculous.
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lewm
the idea of an advanced stylus being MISALIGNED can cause more damage than a spherical/conical Stylus. Thus they consider spherical as ’safest’.
Properly aligned, advanced is LESS groove wear, and LESS stylus wear, and better sound.
amateur/novices without the simple tools and skills to properly align advanced stylus do run a higher risk of misalignment.
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The tank and brushes is supposed to be filled with the cleaning fluid, the brushes doing the cleaning.
I scrub aggressively with the baby scalp brush, and the tank is just distilled water for rinse, then light cloth dry holding the LP over the tank (so excess distilled water drips back down into the tank. Then on to the drying rack, they dry faster that way, off to the next batch of 10.
I position myself centered between the speakers, for quality listening while cleaning, add a bit of joy to the task. A folding table with a plastic sheet would work for other setups.
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@elliottbnewcombjr I have a method where my Wife goes out, I then go for it in her Kitchen. I clear all work surfaces in the and protect them with News Paper, I have a Pump Up Spray Bottle for Distilled Water Jet Nozzle Rinsing.
Lab Sponges and Micro Fibre Camera Lens Cloths are great for excess water removal.
Apart from her OCD on placement of items, I am not usually captured in the act🤣
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dogberry
There are some great cartridges $700. or below
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=mc+cartridge&_sacat=0&Type=Moving%2520Coil%2520%2528MC%2529&_dcat=64619&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_udlo=250&_udhi=700&_sop=16&_pgn=2
here’s my AT33....for a great price these days, returns accepted
Microlinear on Boron, great separation, tight channel balance for superior imaging.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/122981575515?epid=27032781048&hash=item1ca245eb5b%3Ag%3AcoEAAOSw9T9iRAvE&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwBuz7HXAPjwo7y1PnHJp4p62tAXI9hINNB8lBF108SrA91aOEpNijhQ2tfMjPuemg7G6Tg7SCgLHavNg8hdjtGVfuKTp4abDqy7gxGs%2FihsBJNgIAEsxn0mXgHK2JSxDGfqB07yBbIU5RUajMbJWf%2FsOIMCVDI3Qfeh2%2Bg1Zp6mhZFJKAgPjTgwX77bo%2FSRVwXH9Uk%2BQl6Iud9jLaFpBisDNuUkMLV4v5Z8hq%2BwMMNaCpDdH%2B29cXR6EiiyzukOFWg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6jE-sL6Yg&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=1000
I’ve listened to many other cartridges in my system, mine and friends. It’s my first MC, I just made a lucky choice. Others here on the forum think highly of it.
Many people prefer elliptical, typically on aluminum, new Denon’s are aplenty, here’s a Benz Micro
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275395465794?hash=item401ed95242%3Ag%3Ad70AAOSwoMli2hxj&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4LXhsTBSVMcwp%2F5hDO5iaN551Syb4U895lGpJ1tKE6qh%2FtmseGVBYeiBrrmvXkauVaMlkUlFCB%2BzThnkRO64jSFeqiTgA4L4vTOWKRi5Rw7pYd77nJ25E6l%2BMSA%2BqBhXdy2YPVS85mztASO0rG%2BCBg5S2YGgTqFiq0P%2FwlYv1bxBMBaj%2BAx90%2FQHqTfI703iAyeEZll9wu3UjcT48LDu969J7GDMVjHJy%2BZ9%2FUC3QQAWh0Mala2kh2Uoy03sQEnIXiklqb66wD9yziwfxKWvna2yeXSJDrpSbNV8%2BddkS1vb%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6jE-sL6Yg&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=1000
Near me, come listen, bring yours 07062
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I think I may order the new version of my broken Dynavector. Although I hate to throw $1200.00 into it, it doesn’t seem like the cheaper cartridges will do what I want. I was really hoping to get out of this for $600 to $700 bucks. I will have to check with member “Kron” as he sells new Dynavector cartridges at a small discount.
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Neither you nor I nor most of the rest of us, regardless of experience, have the capacity to account for a zenith error; there are no readily available tools to use for that purpose. I have a feeling there soon will be, from either Wally Tools or elsewhere. And yes, no zenith error with a spherical stylus. At the CAF, the person at the Wally Tools kiosk (not JR, who was taking a break at that moment) told me they will take your cartridge, measure for zenith error (and every other possible parameter), and sell you a shim to correct for the zenith error. He showed me an example of a shim, but it didn’t make sense to me how the shim he had on hand would do the job. In any case, Wally do understand the problem it seems. Unfortunately, there current solution costs $500, which pays for a thorough assessment of the cartridge, not just the zenith shim.
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With 28,500 LPs and 60 years experience, I prefer the Dynavector 20X2 L cartridge. It works great with my modified SME IV, with the Zesto Allesso SUT as well as EAR 864 and EAR 912. It is so highly valued by friends and myself because it permits us to enjoy ALL our LPs, from 1948 monos to current production. I had higher end cartridges and they made newer (post direct to disc era) LPs sound fantastic but not as good with early stereo and mono (I should purchase a mono cartridge though as that is better suited to mono 1950s LPs grooves). My best friends also own the Denon 103 in both plastic and remodeled ceramic body versions. Both great choices.
This is the indisputable truth that so many don’t want to hear or believe. I have spent somewhere north of 50K on various cartridges and have a few set up professionally by Brian Walsh (whom I can not recommend enough). The hard truth is that the exotic cartridges set up optimally will not convey audio nirvana upon your lap and ears. Yes, there are incremental improvements, but only with optimal pressings which are few and far between. The sweet spot for me is with the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze and the Benz Glider SL. I have two of each just gathering dust and I am presently wearing out my Lyra Etna SL and Van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius XGW. When they are worn out I will "revert" to the Ortofon Bronze and Glider with zero regrets.
This is just my take, I don’t claim it is right DESPITE my strong introductory proclamation. It is my truth, not yours. A very short comment on pressings-it is amazing that nothing can be assumed. I have purchased expensive boxed re-issues that were only "good" and small indy pressings that are amazing.
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To place a fly into the ointment, consider this:
- Fine line contact styli have FAR greater surface contact area versus conical styli. When balanced for equal VTF, this means the fine line will be far less likely to cause groove damage.
- A fine line contact stylus has a greater angle of attack on groove perturbations. This heightens the risk of groove damage vs conical styli but is heavily influenced by the deflection of the groove wall under the stylus. A record with higher quantities of plasticizers will deflect more and therefore be more at risk from damage from high angles of attack from the stylus. This issue has not been conclusively studied in the scientific literature, but we intend to do so starting with heavy use on lacquers.
My experience and my gut says that groove damage is primarily a function of tonearm horizontal forces being out of control and very secondarily by excessive VTF and dirty styli. At 33rpm and at innermost grooves only, conical styli *MIGHT* retain a small advantage but otherwise fine line styli are safer. Again, I cannot yet prove this due to lack of data on deflection/angle of attack.
Get your tonearm under control and you’ll have less to worry about (and sound better too!)
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I agree with @lewm.
If the owner cannot set up a cartridge correctly, then they shouldn't try to set it up at all. MicroLine, Shibata, Line Contact and similar stylus profiles are MUCH more desirable than spherical stylus. Spherical stylus wear very fast and can do irreparable damage to records before their wear gets discovered. That also results in a higher cost of maintenance since most MC carts require a full cartridge replacement when a stylus is shot.
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I hope my comment about using a spherical stylus because it’s safest for LPs was taken as facetious. That was the intent.
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I'm very satisfied with my Umami Red.
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I’ve owned a couple of Dynavectors in the distant past and have recently spent time with the 10X5 II. They IMO are nice but not special, if that makes sense.
Like the OP, I’ve got a Technics G that I dearly love. Mine is set up with a Funk Firm 5mm Achromat, the KAB arm damper and A/T Headshell wires on the factory headshell. Setup with a Vinyl Source Arc Protractor and a first generation Fozgometer. All records are ultrasonically cleaned.
Im currently running a low output Grado Reference3 wood body and couldn’t be happier. At $1500, it’s out of the OP’s comfort zone. Before I spent $1200 for another Dynavector, I’d seriously look at a Grado Master3 which comes in at $1K.
The Grado Timbre series comes in both high and low output- either 4.7 mV or 1 mV. Both load at 47k, but not every phono stage can run 50-55 dB gain at 47k loading. If yours can, the low output is the ticket. If not, you want high output.
The Grados can also be replaced or upgraded at roughly 33% off when worn or damaged which is pretty strong compared to the competition (except Soundsmith).
MI cartridges have lower moving mass than either MM or MC.
I listen to about 70% classic rock, 25% classical and 5% jazz and the Grado excels with all of them.
Tonight’s spins so far:
The Beatles- Abbey Road MoFi
Jethro Tull- Songs From The Wood 40th Anniversary
On deck next:
David Bowie- Ziggy Stardust
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@stereo5
I am an MC fan as well. I would not recommend the grado offerings, except that you can replace the stylus. However, I have experience with replacing the arm/stylus of a Benz micro mc (two of them) thru a vendor in New York. He does a great job. $300-400. Yes, the sound is slightly different, but excellent nonetheless. Feel free to email me to get the info.
Your Dynavector is better than the recommended grado, particularly with a new rebuild. Have you tried the Dynavector 10x5, mc high output? It's very good with rock. In your price range.
Finally, 2juki (Hong Kong) on eBay offers great deals on cartridges and accepts returns if the cartridge arrives damaged. He's been dealing in high end cartridges for 20 years, at least. Very credible. I have bought two cartridges (10x5 & Audio Technica ART9). FWIW, the ART9 is excellent but the same price a the dv20x
Goodluck
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My Hana SH has blown me away more than once on many of my older rock albums. I have maybe 100 hrs on it now and I think it took about 10-20 albums to come into its fullest potential.
Tonearm and set up are a big factor. I used a high end stylus gauge to set it at 2g and then went though a couple of test records to get some anti skate and other adjustments corrected. If someone does not have proper tools then I think best to have it done by a pro.
I do find the Hana SH amazing! Very solid imaging with fine detail, no perceptible coloration and not favoring or flavoring any particular type of music. Of course bad recordings sound... bad.
For me this opens the imaginary door to wondering how much better something like the Umami Red is... I'm tempted!
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Lively discussion on this one! The Hana cartridges are great. I had an ML and really enjoyed it. I’ve since upgraded a couple times but the shibata stylus in the SL will be a good match for your listening habits and is somewhat forgiving regarding noise. Another great option would, as others have said, be an Ortofon MM, perhaps the LVB. This is a little more than you were speaking of but I’d a great match to that table.
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+1 for the Grado
If you haven’t listened in a while to a MM cartridge in your system, I encourage you to give the Grado a spin. I currently have the Hana ML mounted on my TT. I like it, but it demands a good deal more of my phono pre than the Grado to which I am comparing it. Unless you have a really well designed and implemented phono section, you may find the Grado more satisfying than the Hana. Bear in mind, I’ve always preferred MM to MC, so my bias is showing. I’m sorry I can’t make useful comparative statements about the Grado and Hana because the Hana has only about 20 hours on it right now. I can say that potentiated by a PS Audio Stellar phono pre the Hana is warmer and more coherent, two features of MM that strongly appeal to me, than I expected. Very promising.
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MC carts have fundamental problem of coil wire' affecting moving part resonance etc. that’s why MC carts typically require higher tracking pressure, which is no good for diamond needle etc.
try to find M Audio Technica AT-ML170 for heavier on bass content cart, or AT-ML180 for Jazz/Classical music, and if you're lucky, you will discover huge improvement in overall “air-ness” and accuracy of sound!
Other MM cart to try is AT-150MLX. |
Near me, come listen, bring yours 07062
Thank you, but I'm in Nova Scotia. I send my cartridges for re-tips to a zipcode near yours, but that's as close as I get!
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@hce1
Watch out. You maybe know that Grado cartridges are MI, not MM, but the analog police may come for you.
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Thank you for your vigilance, dogberry.
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"MC carts have fundamental problem of coil wire' affecting moving part resonance etc. that’s why MC carts typically require higher tracking pressure, which is no good for diamond needle etc." I am not a big fan of low cost MC cartridges, either, but the hypothesis expressed here requires some evidential support. Otherwise, it strikes me as yet another case of connecting a cause with an effect, without any real basis for the connection. This is an all too common practice in our hobby. Not to mention the fact that "higher tracking pressure" is not necessarily a correlate of increased stylus (or LP) wear; you want the VTF to be high enough to prevent mistracking, but not higher, for a given stylus shape.
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If you are now considering forking over for a new Dynavector 20X2, that opens up a whole different price range of cartridges. You should look at the Hana ML (on sale now everywhere for $960), the Ortofon 2M Black LVB as mentioned previously, Clearaudio Maestro V2 Wood, and the Audio Technica AT33Sa or AT-ART7 cartridges. elusive DISC currently has a number of cartridges at discount.
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@knownothing , Thank you very much for the tip on Elusive Disc. I haven't been to that site in years, forgot about them. Not a big fan of the Ortofon 2M Black but the AT cartridges look promising.
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@stereo5
until it got ruined by a curious little boy.
Back in the late 80's another curious 6 year old boy trashed my Micro Seiki LC-80w MC cart.
His Mom said at the time "I'm not surprised he wanted to play with it..... he has one just like it at home".
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@stereo5 why MC in the first place? MC requires to invest a lot of $$ in SUT, phono-pre etc, and uses higher track force g settings (2g MC vs 1g MM).
if you have $$ to spend, check Phasemation PP-200 MC cart
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Mostly because I have a very excellent MC phono pre built into my Mac C2500 tube preamp. I decided to go with a MM phono cartridge and purchased an AT VM540 cartridge. It came in around $300 on a factory mounted headshell. My Rock records really sing now and I couldn’t be happier. Thank you and everyone else that contributed to this thread.
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I just read through this thread and was surprised to see that you ended up with a 540ML. As I was going through I kept thinking that's what you need.
I'm sure this cart gets ignored just because of its price. I can enjoy all my records with it, with others carts there were albums that I would not listen to, including with an MP-500 that I currently have on my SL1200gr.
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@newfzx7,
It certainly was under my radar. I got a couple dozen PM singing the praise of the AT MM cartridges, especially the VM 540 and their more expensive siblings. I purchased a mounted AT direct from AT and only had to slide the cartridge back a bit to set the proper overhang. I was truly up a running in less than 10 minutes. I can’t believe how great this cartridge sounds, it is just what my Rock records needed. It was like putting premium gas in my old 360 Duster back in the day!
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I like the sound of Goldring carts. I have an Eroica XL MC cart on my P3 in the basement, I enjoy it. My Main system is the Ethos. I am looking to upgrade that to the New Ethos Se cart.
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@elliottbnewcombjr Apologies, I didn't see your question.
The Decca Maroon was refurbished by John Wright and a line contact stylus fitted.
when you say rebuilt Decca Maroon, does that mean an upgraded Stylus from the standard Spherical?
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@stereo5 vm540 is good for everyday use, replacement stylus not expensive etc.. look for NOS AT-150MLX or AT-ML170 (AT-ML180) to open your system horizon! Other good professional grade AT cart is AT24 (AT25 with headshell), which is very neutral and can drive higher capacitance phono cable, w/o degrading sound.
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@westcoastaudiophile
Thanks for your help. In addition to the VM540, I also acquired a Shure V15-IV with the top line Jico stylus for it. I am using it most times and it sounds amazing!!!
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@stereo5 I just acquired two V15V MR cartridge bodies. I will order two Jico SAS/R styluses and sell one of them. I got stuck by sentimentality.
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@mijostyn,
Before you post an ad, send me a pm, I am VERY interested.
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@stereo5 sort of against Agon's rules. I can tell you when I am about to post it then it is up to you to be first:-)
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