I give a lot of credit to Mike Moffet of Schiit. I first spoke with him in the early '80 when he founded Theta Audio. He had developed pretty much the first functional CD player. I wanted to buy it but he steered me away since he referred to it as the Frankenstein since it was quite gerry rigged. I wound up getting his ultimate DVD/CD transport, the Compli which I use to this day. Mike has really taken the industry by storm with Schiit Audio. 250,000 amps sold? I have only heard those kind of numbers describing decades of sales of a venerable product like the original Vandys. Schiit has established products, marketing and philosophy that have revolutionized the industry. I was so impressed that Schiit recently introduced a super affordable and good quality TT that gives so many folks the opportunity to dive into vinyl. Really good, affordable "stuff". Bravo Schiit!
But George, what about the fact that every year there are at least a decent handful of components that don’t measure very well but are subjectively loved by the reviewer and they get put into the class A category? What are we to take from that?
That's why I said way back
"And measurements will tell you far more than "just the review", and "could" show you if the reviewers full of it also."
Thanks to @mesch for additional measurments/factors creating better synergy in system
My purchases are typically a process of elimination - budget, specs, appearance, and most importantly, how it sounds in my system in my room. My "dealer" is mostly "brand agnostic" and reps mid to high-end gear at many price points. He's an engineer by education and goes to all shows and visits factories of all brands he carries, so I lean on his judgment considerably. But I really want to better understand the numbers.
For example, my current speakers Raidho TD2.2 are 88 db sensitivity, but I had a 3 week in-home demo to really check them out. So like you say, I learned my amplifier was capable of meeting the demands of those speakers to make them shine. Same result when I changed phono cartridge to a Lyra Kleos. I was provided with Delos for a 1 month while awaiting arrival of my Kleos. SQ improvement big time, and of course measurements/specs were significantly better than the predecessor.
Awesome system, by the way. Noted significant devotion to vibration and cable shielding. Also note your Herron phono pre, and I'm wondering if that would be an upgrade from over my Aesthetix Rhea Esclipse. I've heard nothing but great things across the board....but there I go again....So anyway thanks!
Either Stereophile reviewers are imbeciles with cloth ears, taking bribes or:
1. Measurements don‘t necessarily correlate with subjective listening impressions. 2. You also need a pair of ears to successfully design an audio component.
But George, what about the fact that every year there are at least a decent handful of components that don’t measure very well but are subjectively loved by the reviewer and they get put into the class A category? What are we to take from that?
The ATC SCM11 V2 has been an absolute no- brainer in its price class for a long time (and not just in my opinion). I don‘t know whether it has made the Stereophile recommended list at some time, but if it hasn‘t I think gpgr4blu may have quite possibly made a salient point.
It‘s one thing publishing a good review, it‘s another making the list, which as a previous poster correctly noted, acts as a buying guide for many consumers. No list, no interest from the dealers. Shame really.
At some point, I was really interested in ATC speakers, but found out that it was a dead-end project. They are so underrepresented on the market that it is hard, not to go to virtually impossible, to hear and see them in person.
Dealers who cary them did not have much in stock.
As close as I could get to them was musicdirect.com with some (unknown at the time) wait time and no returns. Which would mean spending unheard and sight unseen.
Even today, one dealer listed on your website does not even mention that they cary the brand on their website.
It is a pity that speakers universally thought of being good are so hard to check out.
lonemountain Absolute Sound, Stereophile (and several other online magazines) have reviewed and recommended our our ATC products without one dollar of advertising- ever.
Lonemountain: ATC makes great sounding speakers but not very well known in the U.S. home audio market. Maybe an advertisement in Stereophile should be considered. ; )
WRT to measurement based assessment. I can recall instances where Stereophile reviewers have waxed lyrical over a product, only to have Atkinson pull out a pretty woeful set of measurements.
Border Patrol springs to mind. Class A recommended There are others.
High efficiency speakers limit your choice of speakers. Plus many high efficiency speakers have very limited bass. That’s how they achieve high efficiency. So there is more to it than that. Unless you must have high efficiency speakers to enable some otherwise limited amplifier. Most speakers even lower efficiency ones with modest power amps will go loud enough for most.
Your explanation above (starting with "Such a speaker will limit your amplifier choices...") is even nicely written.
However, tangentially related to the matter, you seem to continually ignore the fact that some people can actually afford to buy an amplifier.
It could be beneficial if you reposted your statement from above every time you wanted to explain benefits of higher-sensitivity speakers. Usually, you just come across as talking garbage about it. Like this, people would actually understand what the ground for your thoughts is. Then they could decide if they want to be frugal, or they may not care about spending more money for an amplifier. And you would get some points for advice.
To the dude with limited reading comprehension, never said there are no good speakers with less than 92dB. What I did was answer a question, what if any measurements are important? Speaker sensitivity surely is one of them. Notice, since I actually do read and comprehend, I do not twist your words around into something you never said. I take what you actually did say and show how you completely misunderstand the message.
Anyone looking to build a great music system will do well to exclude from consideration speakers with low sensitivity. Such a speaker will limit your amplifier choices. Since the sound you get is not all due to the speaker but is the sum total of everything in the system, then things like choosing hard to drive speakers exact a price in terms of having to spend more money on amplifiers. Therefore, if you want the best sound you can get for the least money you will do well to avoid such problems. Is that so hard to understand?
To the guy who said to stay away from speakers below 92db. Between that and all the writers who say Stereophile is all payola, this whole thread couldn't be more depressing. Dude - if I may call you dude - listen to Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers, well below 92db, and tell people to stay away from them. Sheesh. What is wrong with y'all?
I have read Stereophile and TAS since the early 80s. I enjoy them for what they are. To me a source of exposure. I do not purchase them to find fault. There is so many good to great products available today why not review those that can be recommended. Cause no harm. (That said I have/had components in my system that have not been reviewed.) The collective sonic merits of a component is so subjective. It remains that one can put together great components at any price level and end up with a system that represents far less than the sum of the individual components.
From my viewpoint two technical aspects that could be better discussed in equipment reviews are: 1)The relationship between speaker sensitivity and the impedance/reactance curves with reference to power requirement. (Usually covered well by JA in Stereophile.) 2)Compatibility concerns of the component under review with the upstream or downstream component as influenced by impedance or gain particularities.
Reactance and gain structure compatibility across a system is very important. This includes, however is not limited to, speaker sensitivity and cartridge output. I do believe as transducers they do contribute a great deal to the character of a system.
I would love some tutorial on the most important measures for primary components and how they link - e.g. impedance/loading MC cartridge to phono pre - line stage...etc. And if stuff like that isn’t really important, I need to know that too.
Gotcha covered.
The most important measurements are speaker sensitivity and cartridge output. Get those right and you can safely ignore all the others they will have zero impact on your ability to create a fantastically musically satisfying system. Don’t believe me? Come and hear mine. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Speaker sensitivity matters because you can use it to screen out speakers that will be hard (read, expensive) to drive. Anything much below 92dB you are better off to leave for others. There are so many fantastic speakers 95dB and up, they all can be driven beautifully with anything from a handful of watts and up. This one measurement, speaker sensitivity, eliminates all concern over how many watts your amp has, whether it is tube or SS, impedance, all that jazz. Drives people who spent years memorizing all this stuff batty to think all they had to do was avoid anything under 92. Oh well. Their problem. Not mine. Not yours either, if you follow this most important of all advice.
Cartridge output matters for the same reason. This more than anything else determines what phono stage you will be able to use, whether or not it will need a step up transformer, how easy or hard (read, expensive) it will be to find a good quality low noise phono stage, on and on.
That’s it. All the rest is window dressing and bragging rights. Guys love to toss the word salad, pour on the dressing. Watch. Pages will follow! Speaker sensitivity. Cartridge output. All else is noise.
@georgehifi - I find it very sad that most of the Stereophile basher’s here, are also too technically inept to understand the measurements.
George, I admit I don't understand how many technical measurements translate to (or create) something audible to me. I wish I did, because about the most I can do it to compare measurements between components I'm interested in - and compare to those I own, since I know how my system sounds.
The flaw in my analysis (like someone mentioned above about a "who's who" system that didn't sound great) is it ignores any synergy between components, or in my mind, how one component's measurements can capture the best qualities of another. I guess it's years of experience listening, comparing measurements, and knowing (and being honest about) sound preferences in the context of budget.
I would love some tutorial on the most important measures for primary components and how they link - e.g. impedance/loading MC cartridge to phono pre - line stage...etc. And if stuff like that isn't really important, I need to know that too.
I do so much reading in work, when I'm done, all I want to do is listen to music.......
I know I'm off topic. But many aspects of this post to consider.
Stereophile's Recommended list was something I so looked forward to receiving and reading over and over....learned a lot over the years. I just received the latest and it is pathetic, mostly their advertisers....ZERO integrity remaining at Stereophile. My biggest beef is how many "Golden Ear" products can they possibly list???? I have heard their products, good but not great and their subs pale in comparison to my JL f-112 or e-112. End rant.
Stereophile and TAS reviews are way more credible than the opinions expressed in this forum. All three can be useful, however. The fourth source, of course, is direct listening at a dealer. But dealer equipment is limited, and dealers are rare in some areas. As a member of LAOCAS, I get to hear equipment every month at a different LA area dealer. (Befoe Covid, that is.)I will admit that my very latest acquisitions were from forum suggestions. Just let your ears and wallet be your final guide.
@georgehifi - the measurements can be useful and I’m glad that Stereophile takes the time to do them, but they don’t tell the whole story. That’s why subjective reviews exist and are generally useful.
They actually tell more than 50% of the story.
And "if" the reviewer "was truthful", the measurements "can" explain why he may say EG: say the bass sounded a little thick and uncontrolled, measurements may show poor damping factor (high output impedance) poor current ability.
Or the highs of an amp sound distant and recessed, measurement could show early rolloff in the HF because of poor HF bandwidth extension even phase shift, or inability to handle low impedances creating it to become a tone control, like the bass problem above.
So many things can be read into an amps potential performance by looking at the measurements.
After all, every amp ever made was designed and made primary by using measurements and the laws of electronics, if you find one that wasn’t, then your looking at a piece of unreliable junk. There is no "snake oil" or "voodoo" in the design of high end audio, or even low end mp3 players.
@georgehifi - the measurements can be useful and I'm glad that Stereophile takes the time to do them, but they don't tell the whole story. That's why subjective reviews exist and are generally useful.
I also find it disappointing that Stereophile no longer really explores a product's weaknesses, and has eliminated negative reviews. I used to really enjoy TAS and SP back in the late 70's, early 80's when Harry Pearson and J Gordon Holt were at the helms.
But I do agree that most products available these days are pretty good. With the amount of information shared on the internet, it's all but impossible for a company that makes truly bad products to survive.
But every product has strengths and weaknesses, and the biggest challenge of building a great sounding system is figuring out which components play well together. That's really where the professional reviewers should come in - trying a product with a variety of other components and describing what worked well and what worked poorly. Some reviewers do a better job at this than others.
I recognize that most reviewers are working out of their home and are either doing it as a second job, or living fairly frugally on a writer's income. So it's challenging for any reviewer to have a wide variety of products to test with.
I consider SP and HFNRR to be about the best of the lot. I used to think that HiFi+ was just as good...until they sold to TAS. HiFi+ retains a higher standard than their overlord but one can see some negative impact. HiFi World is interesting, a vinyl and vintage forward bias, but their over the top promotion of Icon Audio equipment begs the question of a commercial connection. TAS ? No thanks. Too many lists, too many non review recommendations, too much of a documented history of pay to play, and a senior editor with a public record of unethical behavior.
SP and HFNRR are carefully written and provide thoughtful commentary. Both provide measurements that are correlated to what one hears, or does not hear. One can gain an understanding of how a piece of equipment sounds, and the biases of individual reviewers.
I find it very sad that most of the Stereophile basher’s here, are also too technically inept to understand the measurements. I just did a search and beside me, the only ones that mention Stereophile measurements are two that admit they don’t look at them!!! And measurements will tell you far more than "just the review", and "could" show you if the reviewers full of it also.
I borowed both the Saga, Freya, and Vidar for several l months. I really liked that Shiit and it was Quality gear for its price and more. I ended up with a Tube integrated which sounded better on my speakers. I have not looked back. I think for the non-weathy group it has a definite place with high end gear.
Several folks here apparently believe they are in on a big secret that ads buy good reviews. I personally haven’t found that to be true. And if it were, what do you think the people at Big High End Advertiser think when gear costing 90 percent less gets the same “A” ranking? Isn’t that a problem, too? Do you really think the staffs at Stereophile or The Absolute Sound accept kickbacks? That the whole thing is a con? Or could it be that people just have different opinions and hear sounds differently. The alternative is to maintain that you yourself are the font of all right thinking. Ever had a salesman diss your preferred model? “Don’t believe those idiots at Consumer Reports, listen to me!,” is his pitch. As if he only has your interests at heart. Folks, didn’t we just through the “Fake News” phase? The only faking going on there are the charlatans that want you to accept their “alternative facts”.
I do read Stereophile. I do find objective statements that make sense. Also you learn particular reviewer's preferences and incorporate that filter in reading them, though a mag's reviewing guidelines help minimize the bias. Hearing equipment (best in your own system) is the most enlightening review. When I've done that and I read a reviewer who matches my impressions then validation of the product review occurs. The mags choose items of audiophile interest to review. They cover a lot of ground. But they actually review only a smidgen of available products. Thus their "recommended" lists only draw from reviewed products.
I've read Stereophile and TAS for decades. One criticism I hear is that there are no longer any bad reviews. Stereophile has directly addressed this.
Stereophile leaves it up to the reader to make sense of the measurements, so he/she can make their own decision (less liable) if it's junk or not for his or her use. Measurements don't lie or do poetic licence.
Stereophile was great when I first got it back in the mid-80s it was the size of a Reader’s Digest and this was the first time I read in a magazine or they were reviewing a very expensive piece of equipment and they actually said it was a piece of junk and don’t buy it
"they actually said it was a piece of junk and don’t buy it"
But "say it" with the measurements instead, if readers can understand them, which to me is even better. Because if you just "say it" your just taking the reviewers word for it like Absolute Sounds.
I was more curious about the fact that the Marantz 30 integrated made it to their class A list at $2499 - this is a class D integrated without gan fet technology...maybe there’s something special about it or is this just a Marantz loving reviewer. Always find it funny that they like to put the KEF Ls50 in class A and the KEF Reference In class B lol - I’ve heard them both extensively, including the Meta version. The reference is for sure and by far the better sounding speaker.
I think the reviews in these publications CAN be useful if one picks and chooses what to pay attention to. Objective discussion of features is something I'll note. "This competes with <fill in the blank> 3 times as expensive!" I will disregard. I find message boards and forums to be much more useful as I get a variety of opinions to look at. And I couldn't care less about measurements - I never even look at them - the only measurement I care about is that provided by my ears and brain.
I think it's interesting that nobody has mentioned the obvious - that the sound quality of modern gear is getting closer and closer. To us mortals with normal hearing modern components sound very similar to each other. In other words, they mostly all sound good.
OK, I know that there are those of you who can hear a dramatic difference in cables and that one solid state boutique amplifier "blows away" another SS boutique amplifier of similar price. It does not surprise me, however, that the Schiit amp with a well designed circuit path using good quality parts, and sold direct to avoid a whole level of markup, sounds really good. Did it deserve a Class A rating? Maybe, maybe not, but I trust the reviewer that this is a good sounding amp.
I've read Stereophile and TAS for decades. One criticism I hear is that there are no longer any bad reviews. Stereophile has directly addressed this. Their position is that they don't want to waste space on a bad sounding gear - there's more than enough excellent gear to fill their magazine. I also suspect that it is getting harder to find a truly bad sounding piece of equipment.
Lastly, I happen to be one of those people who have assembled a system of mostly Stereophile Class A and B components. The heart of my system is 90's vintage (Krell, Thiel) and part of the reason I bought these components was because they were well reviewed in the audio press. The idea that a system composed of Stereophile Class A components is somehow inferior or sounds bad or that I am an audio idiot because I didn't buy non-reviewed esoteric gear is flatly offensive. The level of arrogance, self importance, and narcissism on the part of a few of the regular posters on this board is truly amazing.
I have some direct experience to offer on this. Absolute Sound, Stereophile (and several other online magazines) have reviewed and recommended our our ATC products without one dollar of advertising- ever. While all of us want to make the link between reviews and revenue (I know I do with car magazines) they really are not as related as one might think. Magazines aren't some collection of people in an office somewhere, plotting how they move forward in big editorial meetings. They are a company that hires writers that likely work from home writing something they think people will want to read. They want to read it bad enough they will subscribe-that's really how it is. The people I know in the magazine business, pro side mostly, none of them are getting rich or making anything more than a living. My observation is the people left in it are sincere and love the business of audio.
We've had several products make Stereophile's list and Absolute Sounds' list. I'm always really proud of the gear ATC engineers and builds because I know it IS unique; I'm thrilled that someone besides me recognizes that. I know for a FACT no one ran an ad or series of ads to get that recommendation. Since there's no advertising in it for them, the suspected motive of rewarding advertisers is clearly not the reason its on the list. Someone actually liked it.
I was surprised to find that Stereophile gives a three-year lifetime to these products. If there is truly a reference product with a great design that does not need revision every three years, you lose. You won't see it on this list. The other choice is the manufacturer has to re-submit the product for a new review which is not too interesting. These reviews are specifically looking for what is new and interesting.
stereophile was great when I first got it back in the mid-80s it was the size of a Reader's Digest and this was the first time I read in a magazine or they were reviewing a very expensive piece of equipment and they actually said it was a piece of junk and don't buy it I have yet to hear them criticize any component they reviewed since then they have turned into stereo review and to be quite honest with you I don't trust anything they say
See this is a bit of a dud, as the measurements show, severe tone tone control mimic, on the 8ohm tap 6.5db variation from flat!!! with simple Kantor simulated speaker loading, and only gives 11.5w tested, and the lower taps will be even far less wattage.
Bet Absolute Sounds would wax lyrical over this, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but Klipsch-Horn owners.
Sad to see so much hate on the site coming from consumers who think that the first qualifier into their world is price paid!
True, it’s the mag that gives the full gamut of measurements for "those can can understand" them, that "can" backup the reviewers listening comments. And those measurements can be linked to, to show the non technical here what their problems are when they ask for help..
And it’s usually this magazine’s "hateful ones" that have no idea about measurements and usually believe in "snake oil" and voodoo to fix their problems.
If not your left with just what the reviewer heard and listen to him waxing lyrical with his poetic licence like in the Absolute Sounds do, and asked to believe it.
Also reviewers comments and opinions maybe somewhat colored by the benefit received from manufacturers who simply gift the product being evaluated to the reviewer.When is the last time you have read a negative review of any component.
Reviews are opinions. I let my ears be the ultimate judge. For reviewers, it is best to be totally independent of the manufacturers which means subscription supported.... It is very difficult to come by hence they need advertising revenue.
Kessler has a pathological hatred of anything Linn or Naim. They obviously must have had some sort of contratemps in the past, because he becomes mentally unhinged whenever their names are mentioned.
Mention Marantz and he can‘t stop the sycophantic platitudes. Mention Ken Ishiwata and he loses the plot.
I enjoy Stereophile, TAS and HiFi News and Record Review. I do not find Harley, Valin, Fremer, Reichert, Kessler or other prominent reviewers in any way dishonest. I do not believe that the magazines provide great reviews for ad money (although I know of one reviewer who will remain nameless and is no longer in the business who would provide a great review, unbeknownst to the higher ups at the magazine, in exchange for keeping the item reviewed at no cost to him--which he would later sell). It is obvious that a brand with consistently great reviews will advertise in the magazine as their advertisements will reach their target audience and influence purchasing decisions. One has to know the type of sound that each reviewer prefers and judge their reviews accordingly. Furthermore, a reviewer will rarely report that a component sounds terrible, but you can usually learn the character, strengths and weaknesses of each item reviewed even if the weaknesses are not set forth in bright lights. I've come to appreciate Fremer the most as he is not afraid to be more direct than most about the character of the sound of an item and precisely what he liked and disliked about it.
"...I am not saying Schiit is the best best all end all of audio but they allows for average people to dip a toe in the water of high end audio..."
The best part of this hobby is finding gear that is really good but also affordable but don't discount the heavy hitters there is another layer above mid-range gear.
I would also add that the new crop of youtube reviewers are following in the same footsteps. Almost all of them start with good intentions and fair and balanced reviews. Before long, they realize that this could be a lucrative business and at that point it’s pretty much downhill from there. For instance, watch some of the older videos from the likes of Zero Fidelity, Thomas and Stereo, NBT Studio, John Darko, Tarun the Brit Audiophile, etc. and compare them to what they’re publishing nowadays. You will see an incremental improvement in production values but the opposite when it comes to providing unbiased opinions.
I think the only place to get information that is not influenced by ulterior motives are forums like this one, barring a few dealers and well-known shills here and there.
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