@gosta You may also want to check out Accuton driver based speakers. Salk uses them. I've heard fantastic things about them. Supposedly the newer drivers aren't as fragile as the older designs. There is also a driver from Raven that looks interesting. I believe Nola uses them: http://ravendesignstudio.com/line-source/I'm just a bit wary of getting too much into obscure drivers and speakers. I'm also curious to hear the ESS speakers with the Heil AMT. Thanks for your detailed response and information! |
@gosta -
The Kii Three wouldn't have the SLP capability I'm looking for unfortunately. From what I've read about the Dutch & Dutch they are a bit shy of the ATCs in mid detail. The big attraction about them is their ability to adjust to rooms. Cardioid bass etc. I know you can't go on what you read but I find its a good starting point to reduce the amount of speakers one has to audition. I would still like to hear both of these.
You make an interesting point on the Unity Audio Boulders. I think perhaps the room I heard them in was not treated well as the bass was a bit too much and the mids were very obscured. I was very disappointed. That mid/tweeter coaxial driver is certainly interesting. Elac uses it in some of their higher end speakers. I've never heard those.
If you ever do A/B compare the Lipinski to the ATC, please let me know what you think. I would be very curious of the outcome! Since the Lipinski is based on the Dunlavy/Duntech design, it really is a world class speaker. Do you have the yellow cones or the newer upgraded black cones? The newer versions have thicker and larger cabinets for better bass. They also claim a smoother midrange, but I'm not sure how they achieve that. Perhaps an upgraded capacitor in the crossover. I think a pair of Lipinski with a sub or two would be fantastic. In a two way design, I'd be concerned about the distortion on the mid frequencies at higher volumes.
Regarding smaller speakers in conjunction with subwoofers, I'd be curious to hear the Magico Q1 as well as the newer Paradigm Persona B with the beryllium drivers (!). Personally I refuse to pay the money Magico is asking for the Q1 for bookshelf speakers but I would be curious to hear them and see how detailed they are compared to ATC. The Paradigms seem very interesting, unfortunately they are ported bass reflex designs. I can't deal with unfocused bass. One trick I have found useful to bypass the bass reflex design is to crossover to the subwoofer at a higher frequency than the frequency the port is tuned to. I did this with my Dynaudio Air20s and the bass tightened up drastically. |
Klipsch Heresy IIIs somehow get midrange right with their 1.75" titanium diaphragm driven horn. I was surprised by this as I'd never previously owned a horn speaker for my hifi rig needs, but there it is. These things are relatively inexpensive for a USA made item, and in my ever humble opinion are way underrated world class speakers. I use these with 2 REL subs that do a great job of fooling me into thinking I'm having more fun. |
@woofer72
I use ATC EL150A with their P6 amplifier and new ATC built tweeter. I also have the C6 subwoofer which I don’t use for 2 channel stereo (not needed even in a large room).
The new ATC tweeter is worth having. Having owned for years the SCM 20, 100 and C6CA, I highly recommend the 150. All ATC are superbly balanced but the 150 is IMHO their best. The ATC 15 inch woofer is just superb. Not many think about woofer quality with ATC because of their mid range but IMHO they have the best 15 inch woofer on the market. ATC actually got started with Supertramp, AC/DC and other stadium rock bands of the late 70’s - based purely on the quality of their woofers that were used in arrays of bass bins. The woofers in their hi-fi and pro studio speakers are massive short voice coils in a long gap - ultra linear response. A big part of mid range clarity is down to the woofer performance - don’t under estimate this factor!
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@woofer72
nice to find your comments. We seem to be on the same path. Wanting as much details as possible, but still a balanced and enjoyable sound - also sometimes at a very high listening volume. As far as I know of today ATC is the benchmark for this.
Since you are familiar to pro monitors, maybe try the new and highly praised monitors Kii three and/or Dutch & Dunn. I bought the Lipinskis from a master of cello with the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra that just had bought the Kii’s for himself.
I’m not sure the Bolders have less details in the mid/highs. They use an interesting Elac element with the Jet5 ribbon mounted inside a flat mid. Don’t know if that one exists in any other speaker? However, the Boulders produce plenty of bass from the two woofers and in a not perfectly treated room you need to take that bass down to hear anything above 200Hz :-). I use an Antimode 2.0 for this (and soon Sonarworks) but will ask Unity if it might be a good idea to decouple one of the woofers. As a matter of fact also the studio I bought the Boulders from did "upgrade" to the Kii’s!
I’m using the Lipinskis for a more near-field listening and havn’t really compared them to the big ATC. You need to do a qualified A/B test to be sure about any real differences. What I can say is that I haven’t heard The wild, the innocent & the e street shuffle more beautiful, detailed and with a better soundstage than through these. Also, sitting closer to speakers and listening at lower volumes naturally makes you hear more details.
I’m very satisfied with the idea I got a couple of weeks ago and that was to remove all subs from my main listening room (which isn’t that large at all) and instead use the ATC woofers as subs to the different monitors I got there. Favourite today actually is the combination of the ATC woofers and the Tannoy DC10a as a monitor with a crossover at about 140 Hz. Suppose I will try the Lipinskis in a while. Since a couple of months I’m intrigued by the Tannoy sound. Very dynamic, lively and fun to listen too. A little coloured compared to the ATC. Good luck and please report of your findings! |
gosta - sounds like you have an awesome selection of speakers. The SCM150s are mammoth!
How would you compare the midrange detail on the Lipinski's to the ATC? Do the L-707s have the ability to separate the many layers on congested recordings and reveal micro-detail like the ATCs?
Thanks for the other suggestions. I have pretty much completely ruled out bass reflex speakers. The only bass reflex design I've heard that was ok was the PSI A-25M. They sound fast despite being ported. However, I've read that at higher volumes even their bass frequencies start acting up. I was excited to check out the Unity Audio Boulders because of the sealed cabinets, but when I finally heard them (I think mk2), I was disappointed that the midrange was not as detailed as the ATCs. The Boulders had fantastic drive though.
PS- No offense to anyone about my thoughts on bass reflex designs. They are just not my preference now, even though I've had a few bass reflex design speakers in the past that I've thoroughly enjoyed. |
Another vote for ATC’s midrange. I have a pair of Proac’s that utilize that incredible mid-driver.
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Over the holidays I took delivery of a pair of Daedalus Apollo's. With the lion's share of the break in process complete, I can say with confidence that the midrange presentation hits that very elusive sweet spot where tonal fidelity, extraordinary detail and an overall balance meet. I'll be listening and writing more about these soon but as I shut the system down after a late night session the other day this thread came to mind and thought I would chime in once more.
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Thiel CS3.7's are pretty decent. Personally, I like Audio Physic (from the Joachim Gerhardt era), they tend to be very clean and clear in the midrange. |
I have heard Harbeth and could easily live with them although I use ATC.
Harbeth have a bit of coloration from the cabinet but it is pleasant. They don’t do full orchestral, big band or loud rock with quite the aplomb of ATC. Harbeth are however wonderful and easy to listen to! Great mid range and lovely classic FM sound.
You must audition Harbeth - they may indeed float your boat. The Compact 7ES3 is their best and most balanced sounding.
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Have ATC150 asl and Tannoy DC10a for main systems. Sometimes changing the DC10a for Gamut L3, Lipinski L707s or Westlake BBSM10. All of them using the ATC woofers for the low bass (Lyngdorf crossover). Having a good time? Can confess that the Lipinskis are beautiful speakers. Marketed as pro monitors, but i believe they are too good sounding to be working tools. You just want to listen.... Would like the active Lipinski monitors and often think of buying the smaller L-505. I think you can buy Lipinski new from Germany and Greece. Sometimes you find them used. For active monitors the Unity Audio Boulders mk2 (or mk3) should not be overseen. There’s so many fine speakers.... :-) |
Dave and Troy,
Lipinski is still in business as far as I know.
I like Dynaudio midrange, but I find the ones I've heard don't have the same level of detail the ATC has. I've also read that the Harbeth mids are balanced and natural but dont have ATC level detail.
Which KEF and Paradigms surpass the ATC (SCM50SL) in detail/transparency? I'm really surprised at your statement. |
The Lypinski were really good, I don't know if anyone sells them or they are even in business.
If you want a speaker with great midrange look at ATC, Harbeth and Dynaudio, all of these tend to sound wonderful in the midrange
Choosing a great set of speakers will come downt to what you value most and of course the pairing of electronics, source components, cabling and electronics.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Good recomendation on ATC we are an ATC dealer and the speakers have a very natural midrange with good detail, not as transparent as the KEF or Paradigms but they are supremely natural and very well balanced speakers.
You can go with a set of ATC SCM 40 for $7k driven with good electronics they will astound you great dynamics, tight punchy bass and a very big soundstage.
Their is a reason that many ot the top recordings made over the last 40 years or so have been mastered or mixed on ATC.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ ATC dealer |
Has anyone had a chance to hear Lipinski L-707's? They are supposed to be extremely revealing.
By the way, regarding comments like "depends on associated equipment":
When performing a scientific experiment, as many factors other than the one being studies are to be kept as similar as possible in order to isolate the phenomenon being observed. Therefore, comments like "depends on the room" are not relevant as we should use an anechoic chamber or at the very least the same exact room. All associated equipment should similarly be the same. |
That will depend a lot on your cables ,interconnects and amp selection . Just as much as speaker selection.
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Although I’m at the moment an ATC listener, PMC should not be forgotten. Their Fact serie speakers are very detailed and you can have them in all price categories. Naturally, as for ATC, also their big pro series. For ATC maybe the 20s are the best compromise for detailed (pro) sound at reasonable cost. Havn’t got it but would like to. When it comes to midrange details there are some singledrivers to investigate. Also don’t miss the studio standard Yamaha NS10 in its new creation. A tool used by most studios just to check out the midrange. Not to enjoy though! |
Gonna also endorse a 3 way. ATC SCM50 would be on my shortlist, for the legendary SM75 midrange driver. Spendy, though. |
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You can't even ask a question in here without
getting 40 different models ,makers damn
one guy even said, LISTEN TO B&W
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@prof
I can't speak for all their speakers, but the Bliss Silvers I own are very neutral. I've compared them back to back with my Spendors and the JMRs were only a tad more forward. They're certainly not anymore forward or bright than ATC or Harbeth. But I wouldn't be surprised if your description is apt to their ribbon tweeter models. I've encountered only a couple ribbons that were non-fatiguing. |
helomech,
Actually, upon auditioning the JMR speakers on several occasions, I actually found them a tad forward and bright. I found them more fatiguing over a long listening period. They do have an "up front" sound.
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Jean Marie Reynauds also have an excellent, neutral and detailed midrange without the all-to-common fatiguing excess in the upper mids. |
I have heard a lot of different speakers during my search for the perfect fit for me.... by far, the Bryston Model T signature with the PX1 outboard, massive crossover network. I am told that going to the BAX1 fully active crossover is even better; however I have not heard it. With the Signature, you can always migrate up to the fully active as the triple inputs are ready for the conversion if you are willing to purchase the amps necessary for three monoblocks per speaker.... I am happy with what I have :) The signature series will set you back around $11K with an enhanced wood veneer. If you go up to the fully active, all bets are off! Six monoblocks or the 21B3 amps.
The standard black ash wood veneer is beautiful if you only want to spend around $9K. BUT, you have to get the signature series as I started with the standard passive crossover and as good as it is, its not even close to the PX1 outboard. |
My Zu Soul Superflys sound pretty coherent , to my ears. As do my KEF Transmission Lines.They both display differences dependent on the source, of course. I like to swap amps around.
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Midrange on the ProAcs with their Ribbon Tweeters is magical.
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I heard the new KEF R3 standmounts today. Midrange and all the rest was very good indeed!
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The Magico A3 has garnered consistent praise. It offers a finely detailed midrange with well delineated and flushed out vocals. The all aluminum Cabinet contributes to a black background. $9800 |
+1 on ATC. I'm running a pair of ATC SCM12 Pros on desktop system (powered by a Wyred 4 Sound ST-500). The mids are among the most detailed, information-rich I've ever heard. A bit forward but not bright or peaky.
It's a 2-way w/enough bass & volume to shake the house. I don't know how ATC does it! |
dodgealum- Fist off, I appreciate your response.
I agree that everyone hears differently, there are different room characteristics, different ideas of what great sound is etc. Ultimately there are many variables and even the environment in which a recording was made influences the final output at the end users set up. Based on this premise, I believe that we all have to figure out what works for ourselves. For me I need something extremely revealing that will allow me to analyze musical passages. I am willing to give up some fluidness to achieve this goal. So for me speakers are a tool. I get that you are looking for something else and totally respect your goal. I think it would be great if we all respect one another's needs, viewpoints and uses and accept that we have different paths that may not evolve in the same manner. I have a friend that has a pair of Martin Logans, they sound beautiful, yet they are not speakers I'd personally want to own but I can still enjoy his system.
Regarding Harbeth, I've heard great things about them but never actually heard them. It would be great to check them out.
"Woof--I would prefer not to name specific brands/models out of respect for the unique listening preferences of different folks who frequent this site. Everyone hears differently, has different room characteristics to work with, and different ideas about what constitutes great sound. My post was merely to point out that certain trade offs might come into play with designs that prioritize detail through the midrange. In my experience, a speaker that is balanced overall and gets the midrange "correct" will tend to satisfy over the long haul. One that emphasizes certain frequency bands in pursuit of "more detail" may impress initially ("WOW, I could hear the air pass between her teeth") but over time maybe not so much."
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Since Harbeth has been mentioned several times here I'll chime back in on the whole "midrange detail" thing....Harbeth, to my ear, is a good example of a speaker that is very balanced and gets the midrange correct. Though it is not the last word in midrange DETAIL, I could easily live with any Harbeth model for the rest of time and be quite happy. (I owned Compact 7's for many years and have heard every model in the lineup at various stages of development).
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I sell various products. Vandersteen is one of them. I just came from the factory. Richard makes most of the drivers himself. It's pretty amazing.
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@smer319
.....you don’t happen to sell Vandys now do you?
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Vivid audio is a good bet if you want that experience of super clarity and detail in the mids/highs.
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I mentioned the NEAR 10m’s. To clarify, if hunting down a pair, the later versions (all black woofers and 1.1in inverted dome Ti tweeter) were ok, but to my ears, the earlier models with raw alu woofer dustcaps and smaller Ti tweeters sound more revealing (for whatever reasons i don’t know). I preferred these for small setups, however. They’re reminiscent of electrostatic headphones in the nearfield. Also, If NEAR ff suspension stiffens (from age or being over-driven by a high powered amp) that would definitely veil their sound. NEAR drivers are robust and last a long time if cared for (no rotting surrounds, etc.. just service the unique ferrofluid). Lewis still services the drivers (if he has the time, that is, he still seems a busy audio engineer).
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Zellaton’s
Vandesteen 7,Thiel CS 5 |
Try to audition Wilson-Benesch loudspeakers. |
sifter
I posted about ow happy I am with Emerald Physics KCIIs but neglected to post MSRP for standard flat black finish is $1995. Underwood is offering a pair with super cool finish for $1995 right now. My friend has those and hey look amazing |
Respectfully I think real magic works when achieving this ideal midrange with a speaker that a working stiff can afford, say under $2K instead of $12K... I'd be interested in those recommendations |
Best mid-range is found on the Vandersteen loudspeakers.
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Someone mentioned NEAR 10m monitors. Their driver technology was unique and based on patents from Bozak regarding cone construction and rigidity.
I have a pair and they were my primary speakers for several years. I liked the sound and they did have a nice midrange.
However, a pair of Celestian 100 monitors were a significant improvement in all areas except sensitivity- They need a lot of power.
The Celestians were replaced
by a pair of Triangle Titus 202. These are my current monitors. Outstanding midrange. Outstanding clarity.
Outstanding transient response.
Very sensitive and easy to drive.
Bass is lacking (rolls off below 60hz).
i set up a computer audio system in my office and initially tried the NEAR 10m pr. After not hearing them for several years I found them to be veiled with a vague soundstage.
I came across a pair of Spica TC50 at a great price and found these to be an ideal speaker for my computer system. Great midrange. Great clarity. Great soundstage- almost holographic in the near field.
While many have mentioned ATC monitors and various BBC related L/S derivatives, I am surprised no one mentioned the BBC LS3/5a. This is supposed to be the quintessential midrange monitor. It was explicitly designed for highly accurate reproduction of the human voice in a near field environment. Many listeners agree that the LS3/5a gets the midrange "right".
My vote would be for the LS3/5a, Triangle Titus 202 and Spica TC50
Good Luck. |
Salk Sound's Song 3A will do the trick.. Starting just over $4100 for the pair.. Super detailed full range speakers.. |
Very nice recommendations and interesting thoughts here. Keep on!
At the moment I am surprised how good sound I have at my working place since I placed my ATC SCM12 there powered by a paradigm AMP with ARC2 room correction. Source is Tidal from PC with an Oppo HA2-SE dac. Crossing at 80hz to a Cambridge Minx sub. Very simple and low cost. Fantastic sound. Don’t want to leave the desk. Can’t work. With the ATC also you have no SPL limitations whatever when you want to crank it up. The Minx sub has limitations though, but it is small enough for the desk.
For desk top listening you really need a good correction system because of all negative interaction from the desk, terminals etc. Cleans everything up dramatically. ARC is very handy because you can easily save and load different correction files, e.g. if you have more than one speaker to change between.I use several but the ATC is the winner right now. Very detailed but still smooth or easy to listen too. |
Woof--I would prefer not to name specific brands/models out of respect for the unique listening preferences of different folks who frequent this site. Everyone hears differently, has different room characteristics to work with, and different ideas about what constitutes great sound. My post was merely to point out that certain trade offs might come into play with designs that prioritize detail through the midrange. In my experience, a speaker that is balanced overall and gets the midrange "correct" will tend to satisfy over the long haul. One that emphasizes certain frequency bands in pursuit of "more detail" may impress initially ("WOW, I could hear the air pass between her teeth") but over time maybe not so much. |
I’m surprised why Salk doesn’t get recommended much here. It’s SS 8 with Accuton midrange, RAAL tweeter and crossover designed for Dennis Murphy gives excellent and smooth mid to high performance. |
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I currently own KEF105/2 Reference speakers, B&W 801Matrix Series 2 with the crossover mods they used in the series 3's, the series 2 crossovers had transformers that induced signals into each other, and all electrolytic capacitors have n ml been bypassed with Audyn True Copper Max capacitors, and any resistors in the audio path replaced with Mills non-inductive wire wound resistors. I also have Thiel CS-7s, untouched crossovers as shortly after I bought Audio Nirvana AN15 ALINCO drivers and haven't looked back. As for Vandersteens, unless they have drastically changed their speakers, the mids are lovely, bass too, but the highs sound like someone tossed a towel over the tweeters. I couldn't believe everything David, the owner of Audio Nirvana, said. Frankly I was sure that I would be returning the speakers under his 30 day return guarantee, but the instant I first heard them, the immediacy of the vocals mesmerized me. Don't get me wrong, just about everything else about the speaker sucked, but I knew that they needed a good 100 hours break in. Once they were broken in, I realized how badly crossovers, even with V-Caps and Mundorf Silver Golds, as in my KEFs, effected and muffled the sound. Thiels are famous for detail, the AN15's spanked them. You'll either have to have a local custom kitchen cabinet maker, a friend, you yourself build cabinets, but you won't be disappointed, shocked, but not disappointed. They will force you to upgrade if you have anything upstream that is less than adequate.
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I like proac so far but I need to spend some time with some harbeth. |
My bad, I confused 2 of their models. One pair of the 3.8s are on sale |
Have had a lot of great speakers over the years from JBL (4312,4311b) Snell (K2, A3i, C4,C5) Omega (Compact Hemp, Alnico 6 Monitor, Alnico XRS 8, all paired with Deep Hemp Subs) Shelby and Kroll monitors and subs, and various project OB speakers. The best most engaging midrange, highs, and bass I have ever experienced are the Charney Audio Tractrix Horns. I own a pair of Maestro with Omega RS7 drivers that sound great with SS and tube amps. At your price point the Companion Voxativ AC 2.6 would be the way to go! If your in the PA, NJ, NY, CT region it would be very worth your while to stop by and audition a pair. Beautiful works of art that deliver in sound quality and leave all box speakers in the dust! http://charneyaudio.com/ |
