Just want to thank everyone that answered my question and actually suggested specific speaker models. I didn't want to disclose it initially in order to avoid biasing responses but I am seriously considering a pair of ATC SCM50SL (passive). I'm quite familiar with the ATC midrange, as I used to own a pair of SCM100SL. Just was wondering if anything out there can rival the amount of information these speakers produce but in a smaller enclosure. I've been searching for a rival for years with no luck. I have no horse in the race for ATC as I'd much prefer something smaller, but I just can't go back to smeared/obscured audio reproduction after having ATCs.
dodgealum- May I ask what speakers you've heard that have the extraordinary detail that you refer to? |
dodgealum- Fist off, I appreciate your response.
I agree that everyone hears differently, there are different room characteristics, different ideas of what great sound is etc. Ultimately there are many variables and even the environment in which a recording was made influences the final output at the end users set up. Based on this premise, I believe that we all have to figure out what works for ourselves. For me I need something extremely revealing that will allow me to analyze musical passages. I am willing to give up some fluidness to achieve this goal. So for me speakers are a tool. I get that you are looking for something else and totally respect your goal. I think it would be great if we all respect one another's needs, viewpoints and uses and accept that we have different paths that may not evolve in the same manner. I have a friend that has a pair of Martin Logans, they sound beautiful, yet they are not speakers I'd personally want to own but I can still enjoy his system.
Regarding Harbeth, I've heard great things about them but never actually heard them. It would be great to check them out.
"Woof--I would prefer not to name specific brands/models out of respect for the unique listening preferences of different folks who frequent this site. Everyone hears differently, has different room characteristics to work with, and different ideas about what constitutes great sound. My post was merely to point out that certain trade offs might come into play with designs that prioritize detail through the midrange. In my experience, a speaker that is balanced overall and gets the midrange "correct" will tend to satisfy over the long haul. One that emphasizes certain frequency bands in pursuit of "more detail" may impress initially ("WOW, I could hear the air pass between her teeth") but over time maybe not so much."
|
Has anyone had a chance to hear Lipinski L-707's? They are supposed to be extremely revealing.
By the way, regarding comments like "depends on associated equipment":
When performing a scientific experiment, as many factors other than the one being studies are to be kept as similar as possible in order to isolate the phenomenon being observed. Therefore, comments like "depends on the room" are not relevant as we should use an anechoic chamber or at the very least the same exact room. All associated equipment should similarly be the same. |
Dave and Troy,
Lipinski is still in business as far as I know.
I like Dynaudio midrange, but I find the ones I've heard don't have the same level of detail the ATC has. I've also read that the Harbeth mids are balanced and natural but dont have ATC level detail.
Which KEF and Paradigms surpass the ATC (SCM50SL) in detail/transparency? I'm really surprised at your statement. |
gosta - sounds like you have an awesome selection of speakers. The SCM150s are mammoth!
How would you compare the midrange detail on the Lipinski's to the ATC? Do the L-707s have the ability to separate the many layers on congested recordings and reveal micro-detail like the ATCs?
Thanks for the other suggestions. I have pretty much completely ruled out bass reflex speakers. The only bass reflex design I've heard that was ok was the PSI A-25M. They sound fast despite being ported. However, I've read that at higher volumes even their bass frequencies start acting up. I was excited to check out the Unity Audio Boulders because of the sealed cabinets, but when I finally heard them (I think mk2), I was disappointed that the midrange was not as detailed as the ATCs. The Boulders had fantastic drive though.
PS- No offense to anyone about my thoughts on bass reflex designs. They are just not my preference now, even though I've had a few bass reflex design speakers in the past that I've thoroughly enjoyed. |
@gosta You may also want to check out Accuton driver based speakers. Salk uses them. I've heard fantastic things about them. Supposedly the newer drivers aren't as fragile as the older designs. There is also a driver from Raven that looks interesting. I believe Nola uses them: http://ravendesignstudio.com/line-source/I'm just a bit wary of getting too much into obscure drivers and speakers. I'm also curious to hear the ESS speakers with the Heil AMT. Thanks for your detailed response and information! |
@shadorne
I have read that the new ATC tweeter is a great upgrade. I can certainly see that, as the only real shortcoming I found in my SCM100's were the high frequencies displayed sibilance and they lacked air (rather boxy sounding). This caused a bit of a dead sound. I'm really curious to hear the upgrade. |
@gosta -
The Kii Three wouldn't have the SLP capability I'm looking for unfortunately. From what I've read about the Dutch & Dutch they are a bit shy of the ATCs in mid detail. The big attraction about them is their ability to adjust to rooms. Cardioid bass etc. I know you can't go on what you read but I find its a good starting point to reduce the amount of speakers one has to audition. I would still like to hear both of these.
You make an interesting point on the Unity Audio Boulders. I think perhaps the room I heard them in was not treated well as the bass was a bit too much and the mids were very obscured. I was very disappointed. That mid/tweeter coaxial driver is certainly interesting. Elac uses it in some of their higher end speakers. I've never heard those.
If you ever do A/B compare the Lipinski to the ATC, please let me know what you think. I would be very curious of the outcome! Since the Lipinski is based on the Dunlavy/Duntech design, it really is a world class speaker. Do you have the yellow cones or the newer upgraded black cones? The newer versions have thicker and larger cabinets for better bass. They also claim a smoother midrange, but I'm not sure how they achieve that. Perhaps an upgraded capacitor in the crossover. I think a pair of Lipinski with a sub or two would be fantastic. In a two way design, I'd be concerned about the distortion on the mid frequencies at higher volumes.
Regarding smaller speakers in conjunction with subwoofers, I'd be curious to hear the Magico Q1 as well as the newer Paradigm Persona B with the beryllium drivers (!). Personally I refuse to pay the money Magico is asking for the Q1 for bookshelf speakers but I would be curious to hear them and see how detailed they are compared to ATC. The Paradigms seem very interesting, unfortunately they are ported bass reflex designs. I can't deal with unfocused bass. One trick I have found useful to bypass the bass reflex design is to crossover to the subwoofer at a higher frequency than the frequency the port is tuned to. I did this with my Dynaudio Air20s and the bass tightened up drastically. |
@shadorne
I'm not sure which tweeters were in my SCM100 either. They were a late 90s edition (home version), that the previous owner upgraded to SL spec. I don't believe he ever upgraded the tweeters. Thanks for the info on the tweeters. I knew about the Vifa tweeters, but did not know about the Excel tweeters. I'm guessing mine had the Vifa. I'd really like to hear the ATC tweeters. They surely do not release anything until it is as close to perfect as possible.
I forgot to respond to your comment regarding the SL woofers. I agree that they are amazing and they contribute to a clearer midrange. When A/B comparing the bottom end on the ATC to Dynaudio, I found that I could hear the actual tone of a kick drum in addition to the punch. The Dyns would only reproduce the fundament punch, without the tone. I felt like I was sitting behind a drum kit and was able to hear the decay of the resonant side drum head. Truly amazing.
"@woofer72
Not sure what you had in your old SCM 100 - there have been several tweeters over the years. The old Excel millennium tweeter was excellent - one of the best. The older vifa tweeter was sibilant but my quite old pair of SCM 100 may have lost ferrofluid (it dries out after a few years hard use with any tweeter). Not sure about the even older Audax...
The newest tweeter just integrates perfectly. It has no ferrofluid. I no longer think about a tweeter in a separate way like you would do with other two ways or three way speakers. It just sounds like sound even if your eyes know there are three drivers there ...the sound is just completely integrated.
I guess the tweeter was the last thing they eventually had to build in house to get the kind of quality they require. I find it surprising they could do better than Excel Millennium. I think it took ATC about 10 years to develop so it just shows you how very good Excel/SEAS products are!"
|
@gosta,
What kind of amps are you using with the Lipinski? I have read of people using them as mid-field speakers with appropriate amplification. I agree, crossing over at high at 70hz (or even 80hz) seems like a good idea in order to avoid bass frequencies distorting mid frequencies. If I recall the surface area of the two 7" woofers equals approximately that of a single 10" woofer.
I've never heard the ATC subs but I imagine they are really nice, and yes, expensive! I currently use the Rhythmik E15HP which is fantastic.
Regarding your yellow glass fiber cone drivers on the L-707, not sure if you knew, but you can upgrade them to the newer black cone woofers. The upgrade is available through Lipinski dealers. I forgot what material the black cone woofers are made out of.
I'm really looking forward to your A/B test! Thank you for being willing to do that!
Also, thank you for introducing me to the XTZ speakers. They look very intriguing. I see that they are ported but it seems it may be possible to block the ports. I wonder if these speakers are voiced "flat" in a more pro audio sense or if they are voiced for home hi fi use? They are priced very reasonably.
Have you ever heard beryllium driver based speakers?
Some still swear by the Infinity Kappa 9. I've never heard them. There is a pair being sold used on another website. Enjoy! :-)
"@woofer72
I actully use two ATC c1 subs to the Lipinski's. Functions very well, but again they are near-field and not sure designed for very high SPL's like the ATC. ATC subs are very musical and plays the bass lines very clean. No distortion to hear. Using them with the Lip's makes a very fine full-range system. The Lip's works best I think as a closed monitor crossovered around 60-70 Hz. The C6 Sub is on my list but expensive also used and not sure I need it. You sell me yours Shadorne :-)
I have the older yellow one's. Actually I got three (one read).
Will hurry up the A/B test :-)
Have a look at the new XTZ Divine Delta speakers. Using Accuton and Mundorf. Nice price. Think I will try these. I bought their new Edge amp recently and am very satisfied with it. Cheap fine power. Sorry, no SALKs around here.
Shouldn't say this....... but will probably invest in some Infinity Kappa 9 soon. I mean they are legends. Also heard them in a store some time ago and thought the mids and tops were beautiful and very life-like and also worth a lot - you could stand up to them."
|
@willmacc
I've read really good things about Salk as well.
Do you know when the Seas Graphene drivers are going to be available? This material sounds really ideal for diaphragms. |
@gosta
Thanks for the suggestion of the Monitor Audio Studio. Interesting that they are so highly detailed and revealing. How do they compare to the ATC midrange as far as detail goes? I ask because this is my point of reference.
|
Have you folks that have heard the Paradigm Persona ever heard ATC? If so, any thoughts on comparisons regarding midrange information retrieval/detail?
Also, does anyone know if the higher priced Persona models offer higher resolution than the lower models (like the 3F)? Or do the higher priced models just have a bigger sound stage and greater SPL? I believe the top of the line Persona model is a sealed enclosure. Too bad the others are bass reflex.
|
@t66suprai
Interesting observation. I actually called Paradigm and they said they 5F and 7F will have a similar midrange resolution but the 9H will be superior. Of course, I'm sure they want to promote the more expensive models, so your observation may be quite accurate. |
@gosta
Thank you for taking the time to make a comparison! I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the outcome, but I have to admit I was a bit biased based on the higher cost of the ATC (I know cost doesn't always correlate to quality though).
May I ask what kind of amp/preamp you used with the L707? Also, what kind of preamp did you use with the active ATC?
Based on your excellent review on the L707, I wonder how much better they would be with the upgraded drivers.
"And the winner is Lipinski L707. For their dynamics, resolution, 3d imaging and beautiful sound. But you need to xo them them to good subs. And they are hard on bad recordings. A little eq-ing down 3db in the 2-4 khz region will help. I use the ATC 15" basses."
|
Correction, If I recall correctly, they said the 3F and 5F will have a similar resolution and the ones above that are higher resolution. The issue I have with companies like these is that their products become obsolete after a decade or so, whereas companies like ATC, Lipinski, Unity Audio etc. allow upgrades whenever they engineer an improved component.
Incidentally, Dynaudio is releasing a new active monitor that boasts a very high resolution midrange driver. The model is the Core 59. The crossover points in these are interesting. |
