Hello, my name's Chris and I'm the Western Regional for Paradigm and Anthem.
Woofer72; Not sure who you called at Paradigm, but I can clear up this confusion on Persona - The treble and mid-range is same from the 9H down to the 3F. The tweeter and the mid is exactly the same. The clarity, resolution and detail is the same. The difference lies in the size of the speakers and the crossover and the woofers. What changes is the size and scale of the presentation you're given with the 9H's being the most efficient and effortless. However, the 3F's are still incredibly efficient.
The 9H's are like a full symphony with the 7F being about the same, less the built-in amplifiers with Anthem Room Correction, and two rear facing woofers. The 5F and 3F are more like smaller chamber orchestras. The 5F is a little more efficient with a little greater output that the 3F. The 5F will sound like it's not working as hard as the 3F in a bigger room. Not any different than series of Mercedes or BMW's with varying engines taking you up a hill at 75mph - the bigger engine is going to do it easier.
To Helomech's point about 2-way vs 3-way, it's hard to get all those drivers sounding like they're working together and not here's the highs and here's the lows and we're trying to just make them work in tandem. Many manufacturers can't get that right, but there's a lot of factors involved in that - but we build everything in house. We're soup to nuts where many smaller manufacturers are at the mercy of what they can get and afford.
Many out there will say that they think our Persona B has the best mid-range, but I truly feel that the towers are superior. Depends on a person's taste though. Some people can't afford the towers or have space for them. It affects how they choose their words in what they say.
Speakers are no different than instruments really as they are the instrument in playback. You might prefer the sound of a Taylor Guitar over a Martin, Gibson, Fender, etc. Depends on who's playing it - that would be the gear you choose. Hand that guitar to several different people, it'll sound different, just like Tubes vs. Solid State. Not one more right than the other, just what do you like or prefer...
I don't think our products ever become obsolete. They're always good, just other technologies come along that allow for improvements. We have a team of engineers and that means there are a lot of different ideas along with materials and technologies we experiment with. There are some materials that companies use right now in their speakers that are well into the tens of thousands of dollars that we're looking at implementing into things that cost hundreds of dollars. We have the ability to purchase in quantities that other companies cannot. If more boutique brands were to build Persona, I'll leave them nameless, a model like the 3F would be more around the $25k/pair price range than at $10k/pair.
Please don't hesitate to direct message me and I'd be more than happy to help answer any questions or give assistance in any way I can.
Cheers,
Chris |
Correction, If I recall correctly, they said the 3F and 5F will have a similar resolution and the ones above that are higher resolution. The issue I have with companies like these is that their products become obsolete after a decade or so, whereas companies like ATC, Lipinski, Unity Audio etc. allow upgrades whenever they engineer an improved component.
Incidentally, Dynaudio is releasing a new active monitor that boasts a very high resolution midrange driver. The model is the Core 59. The crossover points in these are interesting. |
@t66suprai
Interesting observation. I actually called Paradigm and they said they 5F and 7F will have a similar midrange resolution but the 9H will be superior. Of course, I'm sure they want to promote the more expensive models, so your observation may be quite accurate. |
@gosta
Thank you for taking the time to make a comparison! I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the outcome, but I have to admit I was a bit biased based on the higher cost of the ATC (I know cost doesn't always correlate to quality though).
May I ask what kind of amp/preamp you used with the L707? Also, what kind of preamp did you use with the active ATC?
Based on your excellent review on the L707, I wonder how much better they would be with the upgraded drivers.
"And the winner is Lipinski L707. For their dynamics, resolution, 3d imaging and beautiful sound. But you need to xo them them to good subs. And they are hard on bad recordings. A little eq-ing down 3db in the 2-4 khz region will help. I use the ATC 15" basses."
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It was mentioned before but its worth repeating - prob some 3 way design in which one driver handles only the midrange. Sure there may or may not be integration / crossover issues but you can't get a purer midrange than that. My experience has been quite the contrary. I believe the multiple filter slopes and phase issues involved with a dedicated midrange are of a bigger detriment, especially when the crossover is right at the middle of the mid freqs where our hearing is most sensitive and music is most energetic. Dollar for dollar, I find that a good 2-way nearly always outperforms a 3-way in the midrange. |
Another vote for the Personas. And to answer a question farther up, I did not hear a difference in midrange resolution up and down the Persona line. They were all spectacular. The main difference was in mid bass, and bass energy and of course overall SPL capability. |
It was mentioned before but its worth repeating - prob some 3 way design in which one driver handles only the midrange. Sure there may or may not be integration / crossover issues but you can't get a purer midrange than that.
ATC, Harbeth, Linkwitz and PMC all have obvious examples but there must be many others. |
I am using Vandy 5A's and truth be told, my earphones are more detailed...though they don't have the depth, air, bass, etc.
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Below $12,000.00...
1.Sonus Faber Electa Amator III...
2...Harbeth M30.2...
ONLY when driven by a good tube amp... |
And the winner is Lipinski L707. For their dynamics, resolution, 3d imaging and beautiful sound. But you need to xo them them to good subs. And they are hard on bad recordings. A little eq-ing down 3db in the 2-4 khz region will help. I use the ATC 15" basses. |
I would go with the ones you like the best.I have never heard many of the speakers mentioned but I am sure the pro acs or ATC would be killing it in the mid range.For more classical music or jazz the Harbeth's would be very very nice.
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The Paradigm Person 5F that I heard with SimAudio amp has an excellent midrange, very clear and was non-fatiguing to my sensitive ears. I know a lot of folks cannot stand them. I have a feeling I would not like their choice in speakers based on my preferences for detail and clarity (another persons harshness). The mid-range of the Persona 5F sounded a bit like the Audience 1+1 V3 that I recently sold. The Persona is a heck of a lot better speaker, I am just comparing mid-range.
The Vivid Kaya 90 I recently heard was very detailed. I am considering that too because I like how fast and clear the Vivid’s sound. The Vivid’s drivers are all aluminum (I think). The sound coming from that speaker was very coherent. It sounded like live music.
The 3rd speaker I am considering is a mystery speaker to me because I cannot hear it in the USA. It is the Yamaha NS5000. Everyone I spoke to, a dealer in Canada, audiophiles in Australia, magazine reviews from all over the world, all compliment the mid-range of the NS5000. All 3 drivers are made from a lighter material than of the Persona and Vivid. It is also has a dome mid range, which is supposed to be unique (been told that, I ain’t technical). It is rumored to be coming to the USA this summer. I may buy it from Canada and import it down if I buy before the summer.
BTW - the Persona are supposedly going on sale in Feb 2019.
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Have you folks that have heard the Paradigm Persona ever heard ATC? If so, any thoughts on comparisons regarding midrange information retrieval/detail?
Also, does anyone know if the higher priced Persona models offer higher resolution than the lower models (like the 3F)? Or do the higher priced models just have a bigger sound stage and greater SPL? I believe the top of the line Persona model is a sealed enclosure. Too bad the others are bass reflex.
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Came here to post Paradigm Persona. Best midrange I've ever heard. Unfortunately 90% of people here have heard them in an apparently awful setup. They are very hard to position properly in the room, which I think is most of the problem. NOT cables, NOT amps, etc. |
Quad Z3 in the lower part of your price range sound truly special to me in the mids and highs - maybe as good as anything under 10k that I've heard and more listenable than most. I think that's the special part to me - the amount of detail retrieval is unbelievable yet there is not one iota of harshness, just totally natural and lifelike tone. Really stunning. |
Completely agree with sfcfran about the Paradigm Persona 3F’s...
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4krow, the Dunlavy midrange is very special. I own a set of his SC-IVa’s. |
Anyone who has heard the RCA field coil 1428/1443 drivers will tell you they are the best for midrange reproduction. With a wide frequency response of ~300 - 7500 Hz, they reproduce everything from the subtlety of a finely nuanced passage to the complexity of a massive orchestra.
They are built like a tank, weighing about 50 LBS per driver, and that’s without the horn! They don’t make them like they used to.
They come up on eBay every so often for about $7500 for a pair. Horns (conical are best - no coloration) run a few thousand. And you need to add an upper bass and sub.
Don’t know how to insert photos here, or I would show you my 3 way system that is based on the 1443s.
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celander,
Never heard Dunleavy speakers before, and always had hoped to do so. |
I can only vouch on those products I’ve heard; ATC and Dunlavy showcase midrange nicely.
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I have been working with the Decware FRX2 driver for years now. I like the midrange that it produces with tube amplification, but not the bass so much. So, I am going with SS power amp driven by a hybred tube pre. AS expected, I have to watch the midrange more, per the SS amplification, and am working towards some kind of balance. In short, these drivers reveal a bit too much on some of the recordings such as rock, and will give up recordings that were 'impressive sounding' through other systems. Given a good clean recording, I prefer these drivers. They have some unusual design concepts, such as a special transformer mounted behind the driver, that adjusts the midrange for better transparency. It affects the frequency response as well as the impedance response? Sorry, you would be better off reading the white papers at the Decware site. In short, you sometimes have to be careful what you wish for. Listening to Jethro Tull right now is great, but an old Fleetwood Mac album before that just made the midrange bite more than it always does with this album (Rumors). Last note, drivers MUST be broken in or you pay the price of hardness and little/weak bass. |
These MPD tweeters (micro pleated diaphragm) are very fast. If you listen near-field as I do at the moment the transients may be a bit to much. They’re hard, almost hurt. Maybe you can call that "un-musical" or as Shadorne means the highs are standing out from the mids. In that perspective they may be different from what ATC monitors give you. I’m not sure that’s a good thing, but very much a good experience and reference. They don’t have the power and authority of the ATC. I wouldn’t play the Studios very loud. To enjoy these you must prefer a very detailed and revealing sound (also in the upper bass) that adds nothing and leaves no prisoners. I do, mostly, but wouldn’t have these as my only monitors. You need something more "organic" besides them for a rest. Will do some A/B soon. |
@willmacc
I've read really good things about Salk as well.
Do you know when the Seas Graphene drivers are going to be available? This material sounds really ideal for diaphragms. |
@gosta
Thanks for the suggestion of the Monitor Audio Studio. Interesting that they are so highly detailed and revealing. How do they compare to the ATC midrange as far as detail goes? I ask because this is my point of reference.
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@shadorne
My ears are becoming more and more accustomed to the MA Studio. Or am I burning in the speakers? Well, I believe the first.. Listening to Charlie Musselwhite tonight "One night in America" (Telarc) and "Sanctuary" and I think the Studio’s doing a great job. His harmonica sounds just fine. Great imaging. It might be that MA eventually have succeeded here to part the very fast tweeter with two small 4" woofers in a d’appolito setting. The woofers are "free". Not screwed in the front baffle. Technique taken directly from their top model. One thing is clear. With these ribbons you hear more percussion and cymbals on some records than you possibly want. Listening nearfield at my desk at 1,20 meters. DSPeaker Anti-mode 2.0 to reduce interference from the desk (also DAC), Crossed 80hz to two JBL 310 subs, XTZ edge2 amp 300w d-class driving the Studios, no-name cables. Not a bad experience for rather low cost! |
@gosta
Interesting. I have tried to like Monitor Audio. Certainly the detail is there but the lack of driver integration makes them sound so artificial. Just so obvious that you are listening to two or more drivers.
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I think the OP is asking about detail - not necessarily the most neutral/accurate (Harbeth)
What's your amp. If its a flea powered amp - then you need an easy load such as an Avantgarde Horn - but by the same token very sensitive speakers pick up and play amp noise. Something like MAgico's need power but the amps that drive them have low noise - from that you tend to have more 'blackness' from which more details emerge (that is in-simplicita)
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Bose 901 vI 18 31/2" drivers per pair add a couple subs and supertweeters and call it a day. lol |
Monitor Audio Studio.
Standmounts. Borrowed over the weekend. May be the most clear and revealing dynamic speaker I’ve heard. Sold in hifi shops but this is more a working tool for the studio. Easy to integrate with subs while they don’t give you much below 80 Hz. New technology from top end MA range. Good on Bjork recordings (which are not easy). You hear and see every layer of sound. Extremely fast transients (folded ribbon tweeter). Try Garrett Brennan "These knees". Probably miss warmth in voices you’re used to. Yes, you will hear every recorded sibling. And every.....everything. Rather inexpensive. |
My favorites were my TC-50 Spicas |
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When the new Seas Excel Graphene drivers are out, maybe we'll have a new champion mid..
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In the Pro world PSI monitors are regarded as a Swiss precision intrument. Still a fantastic listening but may be a bit fatiguing if you sit for long hours.
For very high precision but also a beautiful organic and very balanced sound you don’t want to leave - try Quested monitors (passive or active). Trad. British sound but on a Pro level.
(havn’t yet had time for my ATC/Lipinski duel)
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I have harbeth 30.1 which I really love but just ordered tannoy legacy Ardens with 15 driver ..., supposed to have fabled mid range but I’ll have to report back.
also my wee falcon ls3/5a have great mids and higher but lacking bass as you would expect from pint sized speakers.
older kef 104 used for speaker tv duty but they have a dirty dark mid to them .... fabled in their time |
Accuton mids are pretty detailed. Salk Song 3 |
Alon V MKII speakers with the Alnico magnet was the most beautiful mid-range sound I ever heard. Fast and musical.
Happy Listening.
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I would not accuse Wilson W/P capable of “hyper detail retrieval”. YMMV. |
The Kithara $6,000Read the all new review of the Oskar Heil Kitharas by the legendary Wayne Donnelly at enjoythemusic.com under the "Superior Audio" section of the site.Here's a link<This link's target cannot be found>
"The Kitharas recreate the performing space — especially on naturally mic'ed recordings — extremely well. Specific vocal and instrumental images are stably located within a nicely dimensional sound field, but without the laser-beam imaging precision and hyper-detail retrieval that are characteristic of imaging “champs” such as the Wilson WATT/Puppy and ambitious minimonitors. As someone who attends dozens of live concerts every year, I can testify that listening to the Kitharas is much closer to what I hear in the concert hall than with most audio systems, even those with much more expensive loudspeaker systems""The Kitharas are real right brain loudspeakers — as emotionally seductive as any loudspeaker I have heard. And in that sense they are, as declared in the title of this article, greater than the sum of their parts."
How the devil does this thing make such beautiful sound!The Heil AMT driver!Enter your text ... |
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I bought Thiel CS2.4SEs about a year ago because I wanted greater transparency and resolution in the midrange. Wasn’t disappointed other than a subtle glassy quality on vocals. Replacing the resistors with Mills MRA-12s fixed that issue. More recently, I rebuilt the boards with Clarity CSA caps and upgraded the coils.
Now, the resolution and transparency are stunning. There is superb intelligibility on lyrics and much more. Gotta be close to SOTA from the mid bass up but I suppose I need to relisten to stuff like TAD Ref Ones and Vivid Giya to say with full confidence. Regardless, these are my last speakers!
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I'm a fan of the Classic Audio Loudspeakers (+$12K).
They employ a beryllium diaphragm that has a Kapton surround- and thus the midrange driver has no breakups until 35Khz. It runs from 500Hz in my speakers to 12KHz. The driver is also field-coil powered so it has speed like an ESL, and for the same reason- when current is applied to the voice coil, the magnetic field does not respond in kind by getting weaker as in permanent magnets. So its faster and more revealing, while at the same time very smooth since there are no breakups.
The larger Classic Audio Loudspeaker (T1) has the midrange horn going down to 250Hz. This is possible due to the Kapton surround.
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I just chanced on a pair of Usher BE-20 dmd dancers and like old time missions they have a very high xover, around 3.5 khz that covers most if not all of the vocal range so 1 driver with no xover in the critical mid range makes for a very good mid range. The ease of placement of these speakers makes me think there's something fundamentally right about them. worth a listen. Revel salon 2 with a completely different approach can be found used at your price and have amazing mids also. I don't care for speakers that exaggerate the sound at one fq and go for clean balanced response. |
@gosta,
What kind of amps are you using with the Lipinski? I have read of people using them as mid-field speakers with appropriate amplification. I agree, crossing over at high at 70hz (or even 80hz) seems like a good idea in order to avoid bass frequencies distorting mid frequencies. If I recall the surface area of the two 7" woofers equals approximately that of a single 10" woofer.
I've never heard the ATC subs but I imagine they are really nice, and yes, expensive! I currently use the Rhythmik E15HP which is fantastic.
Regarding your yellow glass fiber cone drivers on the L-707, not sure if you knew, but you can upgrade them to the newer black cone woofers. The upgrade is available through Lipinski dealers. I forgot what material the black cone woofers are made out of.
I'm really looking forward to your A/B test! Thank you for being willing to do that!
Also, thank you for introducing me to the XTZ speakers. They look very intriguing. I see that they are ported but it seems it may be possible to block the ports. I wonder if these speakers are voiced "flat" in a more pro audio sense or if they are voiced for home hi fi use? They are priced very reasonably.
Have you ever heard beryllium driver based speakers?
Some still swear by the Infinity Kappa 9. I've never heard them. There is a pair being sold used on another website. Enjoy! :-)
"@woofer72
I actully use two ATC c1 subs to the Lipinski's. Functions very well, but again they are near-field and not sure designed for very high SPL's like the ATC. ATC subs are very musical and plays the bass lines very clean. No distortion to hear. Using them with the Lip's makes a very fine full-range system. The Lip's works best I think as a closed monitor crossovered around 60-70 Hz. The C6 Sub is on my list but expensive also used and not sure I need it. You sell me yours Shadorne :-)
I have the older yellow one's. Actually I got three (one read).
Will hurry up the A/B test :-)
Have a look at the new XTZ Divine Delta speakers. Using Accuton and Mundorf. Nice price. Think I will try these. I bought their new Edge amp recently and am very satisfied with it. Cheap fine power. Sorry, no SALKs around here.
Shouldn't say this....... but will probably invest in some Infinity Kappa 9 soon. I mean they are legends. Also heard them in a store some time ago and thought the mids and tops were beautiful and very life-like and also worth a lot - you could stand up to them."
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@shadorne
I'm not sure which tweeters were in my SCM100 either. They were a late 90s edition (home version), that the previous owner upgraded to SL spec. I don't believe he ever upgraded the tweeters. Thanks for the info on the tweeters. I knew about the Vifa tweeters, but did not know about the Excel tweeters. I'm guessing mine had the Vifa. I'd really like to hear the ATC tweeters. They surely do not release anything until it is as close to perfect as possible.
I forgot to respond to your comment regarding the SL woofers. I agree that they are amazing and they contribute to a clearer midrange. When A/B comparing the bottom end on the ATC to Dynaudio, I found that I could hear the actual tone of a kick drum in addition to the punch. The Dyns would only reproduce the fundament punch, without the tone. I felt like I was sitting behind a drum kit and was able to hear the decay of the resonant side drum head. Truly amazing.
"@woofer72
Not sure what you had in your old SCM 100 - there have been several tweeters over the years. The old Excel millennium tweeter was excellent - one of the best. The older vifa tweeter was sibilant but my quite old pair of SCM 100 may have lost ferrofluid (it dries out after a few years hard use with any tweeter). Not sure about the even older Audax...
The newest tweeter just integrates perfectly. It has no ferrofluid. I no longer think about a tweeter in a separate way like you would do with other two ways or three way speakers. It just sounds like sound even if your eyes know there are three drivers there ...the sound is just completely integrated.
I guess the tweeter was the last thing they eventually had to build in house to get the kind of quality they require. I find it surprising they could do better than Excel Millennium. I think it took ATC about 10 years to develop so it just shows you how very good Excel/SEAS products are!"
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@gosta
Yes the Excel line is SEAS premium line. It has a copper ring waveguide - so rather unmistakeable. Used in Linkwitz Orion and by Joseph Audio. It is a very expensive unit costing more than most high end speaker woofers/mid range and 5 to 10 times what most dome tweeters cost - probably why it is so rarely used - most people have never heard it. |
Why not some (new?) music to crank up your systems:
Lukas Nelson @ Promise of the Real
yes, son of Willie..
ATC EL150A...wow! |
@shadorne
Would like to upgrade to the new tweeter for the 150's. Have a version of it in the new ATC 12 and like it a lot (desk top system). Though of course not listening at the same SPL.... The Excel tweeter you are talking about is that the SEAS tweeter I got or is it a much older tweeter?
@woofer72
I actully use two ATC c1 subs to the Lipinski's. Functions very well, but again they are near-field and not sure designed for very high SPL's like the ATC. ATC subs are very musical and plays the bass lines very clean. No distortion to hear. Using them with the Lip's makes a very fine full-range system. The Lip's works best I think as a closed monitor crossovered around 60-70 Hz. The C6 Sub is on my list but expensive also used and not sure I need it. You sell me yours Shadorne :-)
I have the older yellow one's. Actually I got three (one read).
Will hurry up the A/B test :-)
Have a look at the new XTZ Divine Delta speakers. Using Accuton and Mundorf. Nice price. Think I will try these. I bought their new Edge amp recently and am very satisfied with it. Cheap fine power. Sorry, no SALKs around here.
Shouldn't say this....... but will probably invest in some Infinity Kappa 9 soon. I mean they are legends. Also heard them in a store some time ago and thought the mids and tops were beautiful and very life-like and also worth a lot - you could stand up to them.
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@woofer72
Not sure what you had in your old SCM 100 - there have been several tweeters over the years. The old Excel millennium tweeter was excellent - one of the best. The older vifa tweeter was sibilant but my quite old pair of SCM 100 may have lost ferrofluid (it dries out after a few years hard use with any tweeter). Not sure about the even older Audax...
The newest tweeter just integrates perfectly. It has no ferrofluid. I no longer think about a tweeter in a separate way like you would do with other two ways or three way speakers. It just sounds like sound even if your eyes know there are three drivers there ...the sound is just completely integrated.
I guess the tweeter was the last thing they eventually had to build in house to get the kind of quality they require. I find it surprising they could do better than Excel Millennium. I think it took ATC about 10 years to develop so it just shows you how very good Excel/SEAS products are! |
@shadorne
I have read that the new ATC tweeter is a great upgrade. I can certainly see that, as the only real shortcoming I found in my SCM100's were the high frequencies displayed sibilance and they lacked air (rather boxy sounding). This caused a bit of a dead sound. I'm really curious to hear the upgrade. |
