Speakers versus Balance vs Amplifier


I’ve been leaning towards a Pass amp to try the magic of Class A but couldn’t commit to an amplifier without a “balance” adjustment. Love the reviews of the new Int-60. 
 

Yet, when I listen to my Mc 252 through my SF Olympia IIIs, I find the “balance” feature is NOT the same as moving my seating position to the midpoint on my loveseat. I always sit on the right side and try to “balance” the sound by increasing the left side volume. 

Should be good, right ?  Most definitely not !!

But, If I just shift my body 15” to the left, center if the of the loveseat, ALL manner of magic happens . . . the music and singer are now right in front of me . . . wide, deep, tall . . . amazing !  No sense of sound on the right or left . . .  mostly just right at me !

I cannot achieve this effect with the “balance” adjustment and I’ve been trying for 4+ years ! ! !

So, maybe I’ll try the Pass amp, forget the balance control and just sit in the middle!

And, yes, I’ve had the speakers and JL subs toed in, straight, toed out, baffles aimed inwards, aimed outwards, etc, etc, etc  

My seat is about 8’ back from the amp (in the center) with the speakers about 5’ to each side !

I guess Nelson knows “balance” adjustments controls just don’t get it . . . . center listening position does ! 

So, do others agree or am I just not smart enough to use the “balance” control feature.

All feedback welcome  BTW, tonight, 54 years since first listened to, I find the musicality of AquaLung still awesome !  The louder the better . . . being 72 still has its benefits . . especially when you’ve got the house to yourself !

Thanks for reading this ramble !

 

128x128teboerio

@aewarren 

Say What ? ! ? 

Can’t wait to try this . . . how can it be ?

Feedback to follow . . but not til first weekend in Nov. 

Thank you ! 

 

OP,

 

Before the move, give your wife a huge bouquet of flowers… or if wealthy… some elaborate gift. Make her very happy. Then make the move. Or half the move.

 

My partner knows this trick (she has a PhD in cognitive psychology)… and looks around to see what is new or moved when I do an unusual gesture… but we laugh about it. It also works. It’s called preconditioning.

@hickamore - most hearing aids have multiple programs, or different EQ settings, for different circumstances. This will be given names, sometimes like 'music' or 'hi-fi' or some such. How accurate the names are remains to be seen or heard. Whichever you use will still need to be tailored to your specific needs by an audiologist or hearing program.

I’d first rule out you don’t have an equipment problem if you haven’t already done so. If you switch the speakers and the problem switches sides then there’s likely a speaker problem. Not sure if it works the same with electronics (maybe someone else can chime in here), but I’d think if you swap the R/L inputs on your amp or pre and the issue doesn’t switch sides that might indicate an imbalance there. I tend to doubt that’s the issue, but it’s good to rule it out before trying other things. You should also get your hearing checked to rule that out as well.

As others mentioned this could well be a room issue, and if both equipment and hearing issues are ruled out I’d try both absorptive and diffusive sound treatments as sometimes one works better than the other depending on your room and personal preferences. I’m thinking a half-round absorptive column against the wall between the speakers might be one of the first things I’d try along with some form of treatment at first reflection points, but that’s just a rough guess and unfortunately every room is different and thus usually requires some experimentation to ultimately find the right solution — well worth it in the long run though. I’d start by talking to at least a couple established room treatment companies (GIK, etc.) and describe your issue and your room and see what they say and recommend. Hope this helps, and best of luck in solving this!

Simple. Either move your loveseat 15" to the left or move your speakers 15" to the right. Or if you think your wife will notice, move the loveseat AND the speakers 7 1/2" to the left AND right respectively. As you have already deduced, the balance control knob will not solve your sweet spot issue. Or you can just listen in the dark. You will automatically move to the sweet spot.

@hickamore Phillips. Sold and fitted through Costco.

 

Actually I think a lot of hearing aid manufacturers are realizing younger people with only minorly degraded hearing are starting to wear hearing aids (like glasses) and are starting to off these features and others.  

I also thought what about your hearing.

For years I sat on a couch on a crack to be centered when listening The crack is a poor place to sit so I got a recliner

 

Balance adjusts the VOLUME of one channel vs the other.   Moving your seating position changes the TIMING of the sound waves arriving at your ears.   You can’t adjust timing with a balance control.

As other have suggested, you might be able to change the toe-in to get better imaging, but that is changing the received dispersion from your speakers, again, that doesn’t affect timing.

Your best be is to move you or your speakers so the timing is appropriate.   Then you can adjust the other things to dial it in.

Wow . . . some really great responses. Thank you all . . . think I will attempt to move the loveseat 15” to the left so the right side seat is dead center. Wonder if I will get away with this as my wife is bound to notice . . . who wouldn’t.   
We shall see.

No XLR cables. Thanks again ! 

@carlsbad2 What brand of hearing aids has the "HIFI music" setting? Can't wait to try them . . .

@teboerio 

Do you use XLR’s? If you do, check the continuity of whatever side sounds the softest.  I was going crazy for months thinking my hearing was going, so I had it checked and happily that wasn’t the problem. I switched my speaker cables and the same side was slightly softer. If I moved about 15” to the left it sounded correct. I brought in another amp, same problem. Turns out one of the wires in the XLR from my DAC to my integrated amp had come away from the connector. After months of going nuts, five minutes and a bit of silver solder, everything was as it should be!

All the best.

I would measure each speaker from the seating position one at a time and see what you get. REW is a free software package. Just look it up. You will need a mic. 

OP. FWIW. I misread your post. I now realize that your reference to 15" was to bring you to the center, not 15" off center. The 49ers and the Eagles lost today too! :-)

OP,

I think you get it. The sweet spot is the sweet spot, and it is in the center between the speakers. It is way more complicated than just boosting the power on one side. If at all possible… sit in the center. I have owned Pass amps for nearly forty years. The most recent have significantly improved in rhythm and pace. They convey more natural detail than Mac. You are likely to be very pleased.

I agree with the OP. Long standing, peer reviewed science tells us that the ear/brain system uses both phase, as well as volume, to determine location of a sound. Changing the volume of one speaker vs the other only addresses the volume. You must be seated equal distance from both speakers in order to perceive a solid center and good stereo image. If practical, move the loveseat so the right side is centered.

 Addressing side wall, ceiling and floor reflections is often a good idea so as to reduce late arriving reflected sound from making the brain have to work harder to enjoy the stereo image.

I realize I am a member who has been remiss in posting photos of my humble room/system. Will address soon.

 

If my image isn't centered I move my speakers further/closer and usually it is only an inch or less.  this is how I make sure my speakers are the same distance from me.  If one were 6" closer, I'd suspect a problem.

Indeed have your hearing checked.  a new set of hearing aids with HIFI music setting is like having 25 yr old ears again.

Jerry

Have you had your hearing checked?- No, I don't mean it as an insult. Sometimes you hearing can change. 

I have a similar experience, mostly due to an upper frequency loss in my left ear.

Bob

FWIW I find your findings reasonable except for your description of the soundstage when you are sitting 15" off center. When you are sitting 15" off center is the center of the image in front of you or does it remain centered between your speakers?

I think the balance control was designed more for use when you encountered a recording which was not balanced and just needed a small tweak. When I had one I never found it useful in correcting a set up issue. I don't really miss it now.

You need better room acoustics.  Absorbers and diffusion on both sides will widen your sweet spot considerably.

No doubt, you’ve checked the speakers are equidistant from the seat & that the toe-in angles are identical.

In my case correcting a tiny difference (1 degree!) in the angle of the left speaker made an astonishing difference to the sonic coherence.

BTW, reading your message got me to play Aqualung again!