Speakers for aging audiophiles - What's with today bass emphasis ?

rhljazz,
It's a new room, it never sounded good, yes it's a bad room for listening, close to a cube in shape.

As it happens I am not in a position to change room. BM6 probably not the right tool as you say; though I am sad to depart from them as I truly love their imaging and sound signature.

Sealed box and EQ would be the next logical step I guess. Thanks for the useful comment / suggestion.

The professional answer is to use bass traps (including helmholtz resonators) in addition to EQ. I find GIK Acoustic’s Soffit Traps exceedingly helpful. Good treatment in the bass can make speakers sound tighter and bigger. Specially tuned resonators can work.... but I find broad bands (relatively) traps plus EQ the most convenient and best combination of features. 

They dampen the ringing enough to allow EQ’s to work both with peaks and nulls.

Yeah, I have measured +20 dB at 30-40 Hz in an average living room once, in a narrow band. Made turning the sub up impossible. Kill the peak, and you can bring the sub up to better mesh with the mains.

Best,

Erik

Actually, that’s what Helmholtz resonators are for, getting rid of bass peaks. For low frequencies a large Helmholtz resonator might be required. I once built a 15 foot long folded horn Helmholtz resonator to take care of a 70 Hz standing wave.

A couple of things:  No room treatment will be able to cure a bass peak as you describe.  So that’s out.

 I looked up your speakers and Dynaudio lists them as near field monitors.  You say you’re sitting 10 feet away.  Wrong tool for the job?  

Is this a new house or room?  If not, did the room ever sound satisfactory?  Unfortunately bad rooms will remain bad rooms.  You can put lipstick on the pig but it’s still a pig.

So, let’s say it is simply a bad room. Your best chance at improvement would be a sealed box alignment perhaps with a smaller woofer that would be less likely to energize the rooms 70hz bass mode.

Thank you all for all the exceedingly useful suggestions.

I have done some experimenting moving my speakers away from the walls up to some 40". Not much change ! It sounds as if the problem is the room. There' a very clear spike at 70Hz and another one at 140.

The one at 70 is really impressive. By alternating a signal at 70 and 80 it's like the 70Hz signal sounds 5 times louder than the 80Hz one !

I could use a parametric EQ or better still a DSP solution. Any suggestion on room treatment not too invasive ?
Thanks a lot,
Mark

What I have noticed with high end subwoofers (and I'm in the same age bracket) is that even when the music is not overly loud, you still greatly appreciate the "depth".  You can actually "feel" the bass, but also carry on a conversation with the person next to you.  It's really cool.

Some rooms just sound bad with ported speakers and in a way most compact two ways are worse than the bigger alternatives because it seems that the makers give them a pronounced mid-bass lift to try to disguise their unavoidable lack of bass extension.
I would suggest you try building some Meniscus Audio Kairos  DIY speakers in the sealed box option.Excellent sounding speakers that are devoid of that horrible and fake one-note ported bass.

Thought I would chime in on this subject as I have had the same issue. My current speakers are Focal L&R Utopia Be, 3 way with 2 ports on the back of each speaker. They are 45Hz to 40kHz.
Over the last few years I have owned them I have struggled with over ripe bass issues, tried plugging 1 port on each speaker, both ports on both speakers, toe in changes, on and on.
I am finally happy (I think) :^) with my current set up. Both ports plugged, JL Audio e110 subwoofer, crossover set at just over 60Hz then a lot of power cable and interconnect changes, also had to change out the Morrow SP 6 speaker cable to Mogami 3103. Does it ever end?
One thing I have learned is changes, especially as drastic as plugging speaker ports require patience and listening time to adjust. Try to avoid the nee jerk reaction (Oh that just doesn't work) and give the changes time to settle in, then work with them to fine tune things.

I have a SR Blue fuse coming latter today for my Moon 600i integrated amp and looking forward to hearing my system with that change.
Just my 2 cents, as always YMMV. Good luck.
Gary

Thank you sounds,
I have convinced myself that most of the problem lies in the ported speakers being positioned too close to the rear wall. I will experiment with positioning but in the end I won't be able to move them forward so I incline to get closed seal speakers as have been suggested. 

marklings

I am in the same boat. Looking for an enjoyable monitor speaker. I am looking at the ProAc Tablet. about two grand. I am planning on using a 300B amplifier. They are so rich sounding. I am 75 so I get the age thing, and I also get the BS#%&&  with the thin and harsh and to much bass. I will avoid that. 

Will let you know 

Totem or Rega

Hi, I've owned many monitors over the years  KEF , Paradigm, Nola etc. The best to my ears have been my beloved Salk Silk monitors. I just listed them for sale on US Audiomart for $2350 /they list for $3595. Use upgraded 7-20 RAAL ribbon tweeter and illuminator woofer. 
 WON best monitor at any price award from Audioholics.
Only selling as moving to Salk floor model Song3-BeATS ( $4500)
Link to listing below:
 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649452921-salk-silk-monitors-w-illuminator-driver/
Much Peace & happy Listening,
Ken

I have a pair of Rogers LS3/5a's. They have a 6 db boost at 120 hz to aid in the subjective impression of deep bass. And it works! 

Rogers LS3/5a?

I completely agree with another poster - Schiit LOKI EQ at $149 could be the answer. I am very happy with the unit. It will definitely allow you to adjust bass and mid bass and also bring up the mids and highs. Coupled of course with better speaker placement.
Sometimes when the bass from my ProAc Response 2.5 speakers is too much of a good thing I use the Loki to tame the bass, and it works very effectively. I mostly keep the mids flat but once in a while I raise the level a bit.
And if I don't really need it I just leave the unit off. 
You can buy it for a trial period. See what you think and maybe save yourself alot of time, hassle and money. You need an extra RCA interconnect and the unit can go between source and pre amp/amp or pre amp and amp. It's flexible and easy to use which for me was critical. I don't want to be fiddling around with equalizers all day long. Good luck.

@fleschler ,
That is what I told OP on " 07-20-2018 2:29pm". I hope he gives it a shot.

Cheaper silver cables.  That would unbalance a neutral audio system.  Open, extended highs, possibly more detailed mids and decrepit bass.

All recordings differ in some way (statement of the obvious # 1,324,587), including the jazz stuff I listen to primarily. I turn my subs up or down a little if something is too bass heavy, and eschew DSP as it seem to suck the mojo out of recordings...also, I rarely get to use the word "eschew." Eschew on that! I worked (live sound mixing) with guitar genius Julian Lage a while back when he was touring with Scott Colley and Kenny Wolleson (he still does from time to time). Kenny preferred to go without mics on his drums, although the guitar and bass amps were miked...no problemo, great sounding amazing show (although I would have preferred using a kick drum mic and single large diaphragm overhead for a somewhat more balanced thing, but still...everything worked out). I was psyched to get the first CD of this trio and man...the first cut has LOUD bass and drums to the degree that was somewhat surprising to me based on the band's preferred live sound, but hey...it's GREAT stuff...so is the second CD and both remain in heavy rotation in my rig.

It may be good to consider a hearing aid to level set what frequency range to focus on.  I understand from ENT specialist the new ones can be connected to a computer to fine tune for one's diagnosed frequency range loss.
  I am going through a similar experience and concluded that a hearing aid for my left ear is essential before changing my audio system.  My right ear is still normal so I still hear all the nice things happening in the right stereo channel more so than the left channel
  Hopefully, if the upper hearing frequency can be restored the bass will not sound over emphasized.
  
  

Totem Arro is a tiny tower that may meet your needs if your not a head anger. They work very well with tubes and solid state. Used pairs are readily  available  and easy to resell if not to your satisfaction. Model 1 are excellent  but demanding. Also
Reference 3a Decapo Be is superb

“Sadly, I can’t say I’m surprised by all the suggestions to simply throw money at the problem with another large, ported bookshelf speaker. For crying out loud, the guy has his speakers within 10" (that’s inches btw) of the wall!“

I agree and suggested a week ago eq, digital correction, and/or room treatment, as have several others. The OP is unwilling to work with the obvious choices of moving the speakers out (which can be easily done for listening and moved back when done given their size) or otherwise maximizing what he has. Unless he purchases speakers specifically designed to be put against the wall, or close to it (Vortex Acoustics, some totems, nearfield studio monitors, custom) changing speakers will not fix the problem.

After you try stuffing the port (experiment with full and partial stuffing) Experiment with toe in.
I have some old Boston Acoustics T-830 3-way mini towers that sound great very close to the wall. They are sealed (Acoustic suspension).
I upgraded to Canton Ergo 3-way towers that are ported in the front. They sound awesome to my 65 year old ears. Canton says their speakers can be placed 12" from the surface behind them, even though the Vento 826 bookshelfs are rear ported.

I believe NHT is back in business and they make highly regarded acoustic/sealed speakers. You could also focus on front ported speakers that are less influenced by the surface behind them. Some examples are Monitor Audio and SalkSound.

I must join those who have spoken of speaker placement.  At ten inches from your front wall bass is going to be overemphasized and you will lose most of the depth in the soundstage. Images will also be smeared by the wave coming off that front wall.   You are not going to get a good balance from almost any speakers that hug the wall like that except perhaps some of the on-wall speakers.  However,  all of the on-walls I'm aware of are designed for home theater, not serious two channel music.  I'm 74 and spent five of my younger years in Naval aviation so I have a significant high frequency loss but I get a very nice balance with extended highs from a pair of Canalis Cambrias about three feet out from the front wall listening fairly near field at about 12 feet.

Agree 100%, overbearing Bass kills any system.Speakers must be pure and true.Cover the complete spectrum in a natural way which does not rearrange the ornaments!

jimman2—Here is some good background FYI: https://www.kirkville.com/music-not-sound-why-high-resolution-music-is-a-marketing-ploy/

There are a great many audiophiles today who do not believe that basic "Red Book" (CD) 16 bit/44kHz digital sampling is sufficient. They want 24 bit/96kHz sampling or higher. (This latter technology was not economically viable in 1981-82, when Sony & Philips created the CD format.) Personally, I feel that there's zero audible benefit in going beyond 16/44 as delivered to the final listener, but then I don't subscribe to lots of other audiophile esoterica either. I like measurements.

Sadly, I can't say I'm surprised by all the suggestions to simply throw money at the problem with another large, ported bookshelf speaker. For crying out loud, the guy has his speakers within 10" (that's inches btw) of the wall!

I think there is some great and not so great information being offered here.  I am 63 and share some of your concerns.  I have older Monitor Audios which are fantastic, B&W 805S which are front ported and are even better.  I also have built LXmini and LXmini +2 speaker systems.  You might want to check out them out.  You can easily find the support forum for Siegfried Linkwitz designed speakers.  On the forum you can find people in your area that have systems that you can audition.  There is also a company that builds the complete systems for you.  In my experience, The LXmini system is the least sensitive to room placement of any speaker I have ever listened to.  You really won't believe what they sound like until you listen.  Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Reading your post reminded me of this exact dilemma about 18 years ago. I had some Klipsch speakers that sounded okay, much better with a receiver than separate components. I decided that I needed to update my audio system to a much more current with lots of bells and whistles. I ended up purchasing a B&K ST-140 amp paired with a PT-3 pre-amp also from B&K. The components were so much better in providing a clear audio image but after about three days I became displeased with this as well. I returned to the audio store and spoke at length about my displeasure after spending right at $1000.00 on separate components. The rep followed me to my home to look at my set-up and check for any mistakes. The only thing that he heard was my speakers were not sufficient to provide at the level that I am wanting.
Coincidently, the rep just happened to bring a pair of 1st generation B&W 805's. We hooked these speakers up to my system and I was just dumbstruck! The level of clarity was just astounding. After listening to these speakers for 15  minutes I was hooked. I bought the pair that the sales rep had brought. He did go back to the shop and purchase the appropriate cable to bi-wire the speakers as suggested by both the sales rep but by B&W as well. 
Hope this helps.

sfcfran - have you had the chance to listen to the KEF LS50 and if so how do they compare to the Paradigm Signature S2?  The KEFs seem to share most if not all of the characteristics you mention for the Paradigm, other than the cost.  I think both speakers would help meet the needs of the OP

vtvmtodvm - thanks for that very interesting info!  I'm sure this has been discussed but If we don't hear past a certain frequency why does it matter if those frequencies are omitted?  

May I suggest that rather than spend $ on new speakers check out the Schiit LOKI EQ at $149.  Look at the reviews on line.  In my H opinion, it provides an unmolested SQ that enables you to tune the frequency in 4 different ranges to your ear and interests.  Some fairly old salt reviewers are finding it a valuable addition to their system.  Its passive and in my case now has a permanent home in my system.  I’m 65 and agree with your assessment on some of the source recording bass.  I happen to like deep base but not if it results in eclipsing and hijacking the rest of the soundstage image because it drowns the rest out.  Which is why I love this LOKI, can tune each cut to my tastes without messing with SQ.  

Placement is critical. Also, is your room treated? You should look at the room 1st, treat for its problem areas. Initially corner bass traps nd 1st reflection points. Speaker placement would be next. If you have rear firing ports then distance between speaker and back wall will matter more than a front firing port. Put your speakers and listening chair at the null locations in your room. Start with using the 1/3 rule/guideline, speakers 1/3 of the length of the room from back wall, and your listening chair 1/3 out from the wall behind. I fought thi for a month recently with my new usher x-towers with front firing ports. Started at 9’ from the back wall and now have them sounding fantastic around 5’ from back wall

jimman2—Oh boy! I don't think that I've actually heard 20kHz (10kHz? 8kHz?) in more than 50 years! And probably more!

My comment about 20kHz was not related to its significance, but rather to the technical fact that 20kHz is the frequency beyond which Philips and Sony compromised CD high frequency response against cost. It's "baked in" to the "Red Book" CD specifications. (Refer cleeds' comment about that compromise.) I consider flat response to 20kHz to be more than sufficient, but some (perhaps many) audiophiles definitely do not. They want digital files far in excess of the "Red Book" CD standard.

I agree with you concerning speakers. You can design good or bad speakers regardless of whether sealed or ported. But my sweeping generality is applicable: Sealed speakers will provide a smoother and more natural bass falloff than ported reflex speakers, but ported speakers will extend deeper (go lower in frequency) than the equivalent sealed enclosure speaker. The key here is "equivalent". This is just a basic "given" in the course of speaker design compromise.

OP:
- Bookshelf 
- Analytical
- Detailed, natural, extended highs
- Balanced and Controlled Bass that is still solid 
- Neutral, but forward with VG 3d staging
- Outstanding lifelike vocals
- Good Air
- Very Fast and revealing Speaker will show you the magnificence of recordings and your equipment, but also let you know how bad a recording is, or system weeknesses.
- 2-2.5k pair
- 5 yr transferable warranty, built 2010 thru 2015, so can be purchased used with warranty in effect.
* Paradigm Signature S2 V.3, Berrylium tweeters

yo +1 - KEF LS50 without a subwoofer - at normal 60yo I am wondering if natural hearing loss at higher frequencies would thereby accentuate sensitivity to lower/bass frequencies (seems that would be the case).  The KEF LS50 to me is the little speaker that could.  I wanted to eliminate the need to use a sub woofer with them (LS50) and purchased Tekton CI.  Fit the bill for me. Not sure why at least one reply here indicated Stereophile didn't like the bass on the Tektons - without re-reading I thought he simply said that sealing the rear port was preferably on a certain amount type and also low percentage of the music he reviewed.  The Tektons certainly are not weak on bass response and are far superior to the KEFs in that regard.  Midrange frequencies on both is exceptional.

And vtmtodvin - at 60 yo we no longer hear >20kHz - lol. And your remark about sealed vs.ported speakers is entirely too simplistic - there are many great designed/sounding speakers with ported enclosures.  Your  comment might be construed that sealed would always be superior

cleeds—Hey, let's be fair, as well as merely accurate…

The cited CD hi-frequency "trade-off" actually involves frequencies > 20kHz.

Those "CD counterparts" that you reference are all pop market CDs that have been intentionally “hyper-comped”—meaning they’re mastered with gross dynamic range compression—to assure that they’ll peak the level meters (sound loud) when given airplay. This odious digital distortion will cause this freak CD to sound inferior when compared to its vinyl equivalent. Analog discs can’t be artificially despoiled to this same extent, so it's the CD that gets intentionally compromised.

And I didn't say that "…sealed speakers don't reproduce LF as well as ported." I said that "sealed speakers provide a smoother and more natural bass falloff."

vtvmtodvm

LP discs are the product of a 1948 compromise that traded fidelity for ...

Every engineered product is the result of compromise. The CD is the product of a compromise that traded high frequencies for the cost benefit.

CDs convey a dynamic range > 30 dB better than vinyl ...

In theory, that’s possible. In practice, rarely. In fact, newly released LPs often have greater dynamic range than their CD counterparts.

... sealed speakers will provide a smoother and more natural bass falloff than ported reflex speakers, but they won’t extend as deeply.

Not necessarily. You might want to give a listen to something like an Infinity IRS Beta system before you insist sealed speakers don’t reproduce LF as well as ported. It’s all about the implementation.

Banyanbull, good points you have made. I used to sell high end audio and more often than not people's tastes in speakers varies. There was not many 100% conclusions on which was best. There were many times I would be surprised on what a customer would prefer, you just won't know until you listen. Don't worry about what others think too much, a lot of good input to consider but in the end your ears will be the final arbitrator. .

Silverline Audio Prelude Plus Not a bookshelf speaker but, Lightweight for easy moving and placement, small footprint, easy to drive. Addicting imaging and detail, surprising bass depth that is light, well damped and tuneful not at all overblown, not to mention the finish is superb, I have a pair..

First let me say I've been in the audio business with a brick and mortar facility for over 40 years offering clients outstanding choices for speakers at all price points. We continue to provide a state of the art environment for auditioning speakers which also serves as our home base for custom design and installation.  Most of what you're reading here is misinformation offering little meaningful input towards you goal of finding a nice pair of speakers for your system.  Disregard comments like "the only good two way speaker is a 3 way speaker" which is absolutely ridiculous. Find a local dealer who can offer you an opportunity to do some real listening.  A dealer that does more listening (to you) than talking. Take along music with which you are familiar.  Ask for the possibility of an in home demonstration. Look for well established speaker manufacturers with significant R&D resources. Do your homework but most of all trust YOUR ears.  

I have Harbeth 30.1’s and they sound beautiful. In fact the big complaint about them is that they lack bass. Maybe so but I am not a big fan of bloated bass either. I am 63 and these are awesome speaker. I do have a small REL sub (T-5) hooked up when I feel like I might need a little more bass to round out the system. These are incredible speakers. Mine are set up in a small 9 foot by 12 foot room and the bass is not boomy at all. Ina bigger room like yours those speaker will really shine and definitely not have too much bass. The mids and highs are incredible and what I really am a fan of. I forgot to say I have Dynaudio X12's and Dynaudio Contour 1.1's. While both of these are great speakers the Harbeth is much better. The Dynaudio Contour 1.1's do not have the clarity in the mids and highs as the X12's. They are more boomy in my small room and why I went with the Harbeth.

marklings—Yes, you're likely correct about digital popular music mixes being more bass heavy than when intended for vinyl media, but that's for good reason. LP discs are the product of a 1948 compromise that traded fidelity for the means to fit 25 minutes/side onto a 12 inch record. Bass response was sacrificed to reduce groove excursion, and treble was boosted to mask surface noise. Complementary equalization is introduced during playback, but analog LPs still measure poorly when compared to standard “Red Book” CD media. CDs convey a dynamic range > 30 dB better than vinyl, with much flatter frequency response, far less harmonic distortion, and near-noiseless playback, so the bass will certainly be more apparent.

And, as noted, sealed speakers will provide a smoother and more natural bass falloff than ported reflex speakers, but they won't extend as deeply. That's why I prefer to use fully sealed mini-monitor main speakers with dual self-powered subwoofers for the low bass, with the main-to-bass crossover functions managed by an active electronic crossover control unit, e.g. Marchand XM66. This makes it convenient to set/reset a desired mains-to-subwoofer acoustic ratio from a single, central location; no need to crawl out to each individual subwoofer.

My desktop audio system is located in a bedroom/converted to home office (13 X 13), and by necessity the speakers/monitors are located w/in 10" of the front wall, similar to your situation.

I've tried 3 powered monitors here. The 1st was sealed but tiny and even crossed over the a sub, the mid-bass was suspect due to smallness of "bass" driver. The 2nd and 3rd were ported and bass was overly full in midbass.

I ended up changing the system quite a bit, improving the electronics and transition to the sub. At the same time, I installed a pair of passive ATC SCM12 Pro's (driven by Wyred4Sound ST 500 Class D amp, very fine sound). This is it for me--excellent sound, top to bottom. It turns out that w/close proximity to front wall, a sealed speaker is essential. I just needed a bigger better one than I had before--plus all the tweaks to electronics.

A 2-way can actually be very very good--but it must be a very very good 2-way for this to work. The ATC is one such speaker. If you had the space, the even larger ATC SCM19 is another.

Ryan R610

I own a pair of Harbeth P3esr speakers.  Nobody would ever claim they have too much bass (what bass they have, however, is well rendered).  I pull them out into my room for critical listening, but they normally are about 14" from the back wall.

The P3 speakers are unique in Harbeth's line in that they are a sealed box design.  They take a bit more power to push, but they are more forgiving when it comes to placement.  They have a signature Harbeth sound which you will either like or not.  They will not be as accurate and punchy as the near-field monitors you are using now.

I bought the Harbeths because I knew they would be near the back wall most of the time.  I also like their more natural, easy going sound compared to more strident speakers I have auditioned.

You will be able to get the BM6 speakers to sound much more balanced if you pull them from the wall.  I use Sound Anchor stands with carriage bolts substituted for the floor spikes, allowing me to move them around easily.  Depending on your floor and room, this may be a consideration;  the speakers do not have to be in the same place all the time, and they are easy to move.  Other good suggestions are acoustic room treatments, digital room correction, and equalization (in that order).

I agree that bass levels are more articulate in many modern masters and re-masters.  This is more a function of taking advantage of better playback technology than was generally available in the past.  I do not think there is some conspiracy to increase the bass to generate sales (see caveat below).  The program material and intended audience will inform the mastering.  I have been mostly very impressed with modern mastering on the music I listen to.

Caveat:  I do not listen to much Pop, Hip-Hop, Rap, or mainstream Country.  Those idioms appeal to a different musical audience – one that apparently appreciates high levels of compression and overwhelming bass (maybe because they are listening on ear buds, bluetooth speakers, or home theater systems).

Kef ls 50

marklings

Lots of good advice here.  I own the LS50s and was having some similar, but somewhat opposite, sound issues.  I ended up drastically changing the room arrangement. The speakers now sit 65cm from single pane glass wall and are 2.8m apart with a VHT sub in between.  I did a bit of research on the reflective index of different materials as I was looking for a "fuller" sound.  I also have the old, front ported B&W CDM1se and they are basier than the LS50s.  I don't use them much anymore.  I keep the sub volume at min.

With all that said, if I had to do it over again, I would get stick with Dynaudio and get the special 40s.   They are impressive, and I love the LS 50s.

Don’t abandon the Harbeths. In my experience they are incredible. I have the SHL5+ and they are the most open, have perfect midrange and the bass isn’t emphasized or bloated.

I believe any of their bookshelf models would serve you well.