This is aimed at understanding one particularly prominent posture on mapping out how to proceed in amassing a great audio outfit with speakers being the most significant ingredient, and initial purchase.
From the Audiogon pages alone, if you read between the lines, one can find that there are several approaches for how to erect an outstanding audio system as to which component should be the initial or by some accounts the largest system investment, or both everytime.
IMHO, The predominant system establishing camps are speakers first, amps first, or sources first. in deference to topologies such as panels vs cones, tubes vs. SS, analog vs. digital, as those preferences are options within options.
For the record, I’m not a card carrying member of the ‘speakers first’ organization. And see an eventually proud highly resolving great sounding system as a work in progress which begins where ever and endss when ever.
So, lets get to the lightening round…Questions:
1. why do you feel any system should begin life with speaker s the first building block AND its greatest investment?
2. which speakers were your first system build?
3. How long did you keep them?
4. were later speaker systems brought in prior to any other ‘component’ changes?
In other words, has the ‘speaker first and always’ theme been your blueprint forever, or at some later point, reveal itself as a much better plan?
A - I dont think that the speaker has to be the first piece to buy. when I was putting a system last year, the turntable was the first purchase. If in the market to put together a system, I am looking for things in a certain price range and if something is there, then I will contact the seller before someone else is also interested in it.
B : those speakers are gone....pair of Klipsch Forte 11's. gave them away for free....
C : had them since new.....1993. 24 years.
D : no.....
"
In other words, has the ‘speaker first and always’ theme been your blueprint forever, or at some later point, reveal itself as a much better plan?"
Everything is important cables, sources, amplification and speakers, however After many years I discovered that amplification is the most important part at the hi-fi chain .if you have good and powerful amplification it can make miracles even with modest speakers .In my current system the amplification costs more than double than my speakers and the cables cost almost the same as the speakers and I am very pleased with the sound.
Honestly if I will build a system today , speakers first, then the right amp, lately I bought 98db speakers I paired with tube amp, works well.i kept my speaker at least 15 yrs now..,
Amps and speakrs are more of necessity than a starting point, if indeed the notion its all about signal integrity and purity, amounts to anything..
The elements that make up the rig are all malleable. Changing. Especially if it is the ‘very first’ outfit.
There is no denying an amp and its relationship to the speaker is key. I suppose it could be argued everything else, as vital as it may be are just the supporting cast.
With experience I can readily see how one could alter or begin anew, picking out loudspeakers as the foremost purchase.
Daring to pursue niche speakers seems to carry even more perils, precautions, or limitations. similarly, some amplifiers warrant the same skill set as speakers.
Even though speakers are the main attraction when folks ask to look at your system, they’ll take in the loudspeakers first. Everytime. Why not? They’re usually prettier. Bigger. Flashier. And in inescapable.
Forgoeing the room itself for a moment, the soul of music comes from the power and source, if speakers are in fact doing their jobs properly, not the other way around. That essence has to be provided to them, they can’t manufacture it.
I’ll probably never see the why of speakers first all the time as THE better approach.
The crucial concept here is that of masking. The component in the chain with the greatest imperfections will mask the imperfections of the component with the least imperfections. Hence, focus on the component with the greatest distortion, the largest deviations from a flat frequency response, or the greatest noise.
The crucial concept here is that of the room & speakers. They will always have the greatest distortion, the largest deviations from a flat frequency response.
Everything prior to speakers have been R&D'd to the point where they can all sound good which makes it more of a matter of taste. Speakers, being the largest generators of distortion, require you to like their sound signature, or house sound, as it's known.
A well regarded speaker builder told me that the source and speakers are most important, with the nod going to the speakers. Amps were his least concern as long as they were fast.
Jim, I have found after many years of attempting to get a system I could live with in my retirement, I had to make some changes. Much of this mindset was an undying curiosity regarding tube amplification. To find out, a speaker change was necessary. I sold my beautiful Dynaudio Contour 5.4's, and since buying anything new was out of the question, I opted to purchase, on Ebay UK, a pair of vintage Tannoy HPD 315 drivers w/crossovers. (This was a return to Tannoys, I had my first pair of 12" Monitor Golds in 1971, and due to a major lifestyle change, away went the Tannoys in 1988).
I had a pair of 150 liter bass-reflex enclosures made, that was two layers of MDF laminated, for a net of 1 7/8', with a weight of 192 lbs. each. To my surprise, they have worked out well with either my SET 300B amp. or my kit-built Class D Audio (running two modules bridged for 500 Wpc) The Tannoys sound beautiful on either one. By this time I had already established a pretty good base of source components, making upgrades as necessary due to attrition (failure from age related issues).
So for me, it's been speakers first, to match speakers/amplifier, and then to upgrade source components as the need arises, until I've arrived at the destination that most pleases me. I have no desire to make any changes now, aside from those necessary from equipment failure.
It's an extremely comfortable place to be, listening causes absolutely no angst, just day after day of enjoyment. I hope everyone can reach this lofty goal.
Speakers alter the sound more than any other component, maybe, unless we’re including analog sources. This should not be surprising, because the speakers must convert the electrical signals to sound waves through mechanical means. Thus, they distort the sound far more than any DAC, amplifier or CD transport.
Whether it’s prudent to buy a particular part of the chain before the others is endlessly debatable.
The OP has it right with the thread title. The speakers' sensitivity spec and overall performance needs will inform your amplification. If you're in the ultra high efficiency mode then you can be looking at SETs that have those few, but glorious watts necessary for your speakers.
In my case, with low efficiency speakers, I knew that a higher power SS or perhaps prohibitively expensive tube beasty was going to be in house.
After that it's an allocation of available $ as to the sources, line stage (if needed), cables power conditioning, footers, yada yada yada. For me it's the yada stuff that's fun. Eaking out that last bit of musicality by attention to the minute details of the system and room is where the fun is for me. (With the obvious exception of opening the box of new gear for the first time). Hey...who out there doesn't love that new car smell?
Interesting topic as always. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Let me ask, when one becomes dissatisfied with the sound of their system, what do they change out first? Cables, amp, source, footers (giggle)? I'll bet speakers. Ultimately, that is where the sound (music) eminates from. It's the obvious choice. In many years of this wonderful and sometimes baffling hobby I have found all the links in the chain have an affect on the sound. Personally, I find the speakers have the final say. I've never had a source or amp (or cables) that I couldn't live with. I have had speakers that just didn't cut it (to my ears). Enjoy the ride...
Well, you have to start somewhere! First, you have to have a room. This seems obvious, but don’t laugh. Consider the size of the room, what other uses are going to be made of it, how much room do you have for audio stuff. For example, my all-time favorite loudspeaker for “realism” is the Magnepan. But that speaker has very demanding placement requirements and needs a lot of room. So, yeah, start with the speaker, considering how it’s going to work in your room, visually and aurally. And are your own speaker tastes a little idiosyncratic; I.e. are you “horny?” Then, think about the amplifier. How much power do you need to make your chosen speakers sing? If you’re a tuber, you should favor speakers closer to 90 dB @ 1 watt efficient and be aware that, as a rule, tube amps interact with conventional speakers idiosyncratically, so consider the speakers and amp as a package. With sources, your first question should be: which ones? Today, there are 3 choices: vinyl records, stored digital (including the shiny discs and downloads) and streaming audio. If you don’t own any existing media - or own digital only - I’d suggest a DAC, a network player/streamer and some sort of NAS (which, initially, can be your computer). There are also units that combine one or more of these functions, including a DAC/preamp which includes an analog input to allow for the possibility of getting into vinyl. Or you just cut the BS and buy a pair of KEF LS50 “wireless” (you still have to plug ‘em in). Add a streamer and some NAS and you’re good to go.
You and I have sort of discussed this a few times. For me, the first if you wlll, step, is speakers and amplification. When a speaker is matched with the most suitable amplification, it can do it’s job best. But if the source is not up to the task, you will still have subpar sound.
I don’t think the speaker has to be the biggest part of the budget. I heard a system a few weeks back that the amp/pre was over twice the cost of the speakers and it sounded pretty amazing. It was Sabrina/Nagra Classic. Add an amazing source and you really have something. This is just a personal example, not meant to be an endorsement.
Now to questions 2 - 4.
2. First speakers were in around 1974 or 75. I mowed lawns and saved and bought my first stereo, an MCS receiver and tape deck with a pair of small two-way speakers given to me by my uncle. Upgraded to an all-MCS system a few years later. It sounded great in the store and great at home.
3. Kept them a few years.
4. my next system in the 80’s was bought based on listening and specs. Bought parts of it from a military catalog. I got lucky and it sounded pretty good.
My speakers/amplification first approach has come from my many years of going to shows and dealers. I’ve heard speakers sound mediocre with the wrong amplification and very good with more synergistic electronics. Or another way to say it is when speakers/amplification are well matched, you know what that sounds like. It is not so easy to mix-n-match these days with so many choices.
Most importantly, let YOUR ears be the guide. I’ve listened to others recommendations for systems (speakers/amp/source) and at least some of them I thought didn’t work together well at all.
Room acoustics are perhaps the biggest factor to consider up front because that can only practically be changed to a certain extent. You have relatively little control over room acoustics compared to the gear you put in the room. Room acoustics affect how the speakers sound so getting that integration right should be priority 1.
Next most important then is having the right amp to drive the speakers. There may be many ways to get the amp speaker integration right. Less efficient speakers may require a beefier amp. A lower power amp will require larger more efficient speakers. Many ways to skin that cat depending on personal priorities.
I have always said that speakers contribute 70% of the sound of the system. If you don't like the basic sound of a speaker there is nothing you can do to substantially change it. I have put together at least 25 systems for friends in my life. It has always been speaker first. I would tell you to find a speaker that you really like, buy it and then worry about the rest. If you have a speaker you love it is perrty hard to mess it up. But you can have the best sources in the world and still wind up with a crappy sounding system. Remember the speaker is the only thing in your system that actual makes sound. All other components are heard thru the speaker Alan
I am of the opinion that the source is most important. Why well I build my own components as most of you know. When I built a better source that was the biggest improvement in my system ever. The source was what gave me better tone, space between instruments, vocals, soundstage, air, emotion, etc. The speakers I was using improved in everyway because of the source. Away went any bloat in the base, high end digital glare, separation was dramatic, micro and macro dynamic swings were excellent. I have yet to find a speaker that could do any of this by itself.
I know many of you will not agree with my assessment but again my learning experience for myself. When I bring the source I build over to another persons home for them to audition or just to hear how it sounds, it takes about 30 seconds for that person to hear what the source does. Many of these people have tried speakers, preamps, amps, room treatments, cables, etc. Why all of those parts have an impact, each of them by themselves cannot do what the source did.
One thing I can arrest to having owned a Hifi- Audio store until 07 is that audio cables are very much so overlooked as good enough. myself included. Even customers buying $40k in electronics ,not counting speakers even if money back to try decent cables $500-1000interconnects 2000 Speaker cables ,power cords make as much or more impact in detail ,performance. Myself and others have proved this, a $500 cable is very respectable but a cable 2x this allows a good speaker to perform at a much higher level on many levels. Yes over kill too is possible in $$ spent.15-20% of the whole system including Loudspeakers is a very respectable Average,nothing set in stone. with over 35 years and many $$ to experiment with in the store .as with anything some brands are just insane .synergistic $15k , or NBS Statement cables you can spend more on cables then your Mercedes . Balance is the magic word and buy cables that get out of the way, not flavor.I have found my own favorite cables lately and it is not from the Biggest advertisers ,which many buyers are swayed to . be diligent and educate yourself on Everything ,it is your $$ money being spent.
Due to a lifetime of revolving systems, changing rooms, and my changing tastes in sound, it was not until more recent times that the speaker first concept finally made some sense. However, I had to find "my sound" first.
With that said, I feel that it's most important to match the speakers that work in your room with your amp. Your amp choice must also match your room as well, so why a critical component. After that, whatever you replace upstream, should be revealed by your speakers. Kenny
How many long time audio geeks replace their entire system all at once? I suppose after a house fire…but a lot of my gear stays through speaker changes and other incidental swap outs (cables here and there…often for the most arbitrary reasons like, "I wonder what THOSE sound like"). I imagine most people in the Active Listening crowd simply are messing around in their gear pool when they discover some item they deem worthy of tossing into what they might feel is an already well sorted mix, with good or bad results…that’s the fun part along with the music discoveries. I recently tried a well regarded speaker brand without hearing it first (few retailers sell these things), mostly to match with a new SE tube amp…FAIL…the speakers I was trying to replace stayed.
Exactly. How many people start with a clean slate and a considerable budget? The reality is that most people end up with a system, or most of one, and then start tinkering with it, one component at a time. There's an ideal world, and the real world.
Well, the argument missing is the room. The room and how speaker friendly it is determines a great deal about what speakers you are going to be able to choose among.
From basic things like what size, and where you will place them come out issues about dispersion, dynamic range and then tuning.
A good sounding room plays well with a lot of speakers. A poor sounding room will demand certain types of speakers to sound good.
Whether you start with speakers, or amps, or DAC, I would spend money on room acoustics LONG before I spent any money on fancy cables of any sort.
it came at a later point, when I really got into the hobby, seeking knowledge, having experience, and using common sense!! get a bad speaker, and you're stuck whatever you do - sure can improve them with very expensive electronics, but the other way around is totally playable.
It is all about relative error. Distortion of even an affordable modern DAC is ultra low, and so is noise. Frequency response is amazingly flat, and better than the 0.2 dB limit of human hearing acuity. Solid state amplifiers are usually almost as good, and do not deserve much attention either beyond three issues that plague some: excessive input sensitivity, load dependent frequency reponse, and insufficient power. But it is not hard to get these right for a modest budget. Speakers are horribly bad by comparison. Distortion is often hundreds of times worse than for electronics, and frequency response similarly and audibly deviates from flat. A few dB plus or minus from 100-10000 Hz is already pretty good, but clearly audible. And that is in an anechoic chamber or in the open air. Put the speaker in a real room, and things get even worse. Such deviations are so large that they will completely mask any imperfections in the electronics. Therefore, the audiophile obsessions with electronics and cables is completely misguided, even if profitable for dealers. It misappopriates resources into areas where they make no contribution, and denies resources to where a real sonic contribution can be made: speakers in the room.
I remember reading an interview with a dealer where the dealer recommended spending most of the money on electronics for a new system and then upgrading speakers later. I thought about it for a while and realized that this is the best for a dealer because it allows them to sell legitimate upgrades down the road and they'll make more money. If they sell a perfectly adequate but not terribly expensive source or amplifier initially, the customer will inevitably be disappointed when the upgrade to a higher end unit later on makes little or no audible difference.
@addyson815 Thanks for the thoughtful reply. = = = = = = @itzhak1969 Agreed. = = = = = @ nonoise Many many thanks. = == = @islandmandan Congrats Dan. Tanks. @helomech > Whether it’s prudent to buy a particular part of the chain before the others is endlessly debatable.
Exactly. All the best.
@hifiman5 > where the fun is for me. (With the obvious exception of opening the box of new gear for the first time). Hey...who out there doesn't love that new car smell?
Unquestionably.
@beernut > when one becomes dissatisfied with the sound of their system, what do they change out first? Cables, amp, source, footers (giggle)? I'll bet speakers.
You lose. Pay me. Lol
The often prohibitive cost of speakers and the excentricities of their signatures, sonically and esthetically confound and frustrate folks enough I’d guess other avenues are put to trial and error before dem big ol’ speakers are ordered in. a side ways step in speakerage makes little sense unless a particular look or different color is needed in the exact same model.
Unheard speakers are very mysterious. ‘spensive too.
= = = = = = = = Willemj > Solid state amplifiers are usually almost as good, and do not deserve much attention ….. Therefore, the audiophile obsessions with electronics and cables is completely misguided
Blindjim > I just don’t get you man. Not at all. Reading thru a number of your posts wherein you can aim at electronics I get the impression from your words all we neeed are big box, no name and or entry level amps, Home Depot extension cords, a 400 CD mega changer, and the best speakers we can afford.
It was said here use your ears. Have you replaced your ears with measuring equipment?
I can dig if a thing measues well, and sounds nice, great! But the looks and sound are what speakers are all about. I look for a speaker which has significant potential as most often the gear I’m hearing it with ain’t what it will be married to. Thereafter its looks, and fit in size to where it will live.
Then its can I afford it/them. Yes. I’ve even bought into the update/upgrade path at dealerships on loudspeaker trade in or ups so I could eventually get the pair I wanted.
To each their own. = == = == == = = =
@dc_bruce > Well, you have to start somewhere! First, you have to have a room. This seems obvious
Very nice. Often overlooked. Tanks. = = = = = pokey77 > I don’t think the speaker has to be the biggest part of the budget. I heard a system a few weeks back that the amp/pre was over twice the cost of the speakers and it sounded pretty amazing. It was Sabrina/Nagra Classic. Add an amazing source and you really have something. This is just a personal example, not meant to be an endorsement.
Very likely here, the face under the mask being alluded to here.
Speakers don’t have to be world class. Many folks I have spoken with that became serious about SQ ushered out their first sets and brought in a few more before settling on something definitely more upscale. It was only then a number of these people went off on speakerage costing substantial amounts. Not their initial purchases. = == = = = @mapman > Room acoustics affect how the speakers sound so getting that integration right should be priority 1.
Wisdom filled! Tanks tons. Sure doesn’t seem that is job one for the vast majority though, does it?
Moving into this house when brand new and starkly appointed with nearly nothing in it but gear and speakers, my roommate said to me, “you have a perfect situation!” ‘there’s nothing in here to negatively affect your sound”.
Well, no, nothing but the near endless echoes, ringing and overly bright top end highlighting. No, nothing at all.
@ahendler > I would tell you to find a speaker that you really like, buy it and then worry about the rest.
That seems prudent enough. The caveat I continue to ruminate over is what span of time will it take to acquire the level of devices one wishes and or needs to get the most from these ‘destination’ loudspeakers. Will they still be relevant?
Or, will they by then have no value apart from being tools of education in system building and a complete financial write off?
bigkidz
vital input. Tanks much.
@ audioman58 > audio cables are very much so overlooked as good enough.
That goes under the heading of EVERYTHING MATTERS. And they do. Tanks a lot.
@kennythekey > it was not until more recent times that the speaker first concept finally made some sense. However, I had to find "my sound" first.
Exactamoondo. Thanks Kenny.
@wolf_garcia > How many long time audio geeks replace their entire system all at once? I suppose after a house fire….
Correct. I’m just examining which piece first, and giving creedance to the notion it is or should be speakers first for what ever reason. Its always been from the jump, amp of some sort, usually a receiver so I had a tuner at least, and a pr of speakers, usually floor standing towers. And always these ‘first items’ were of necessity tightly budgeted purchases. Like with a couple grand or so. A bit more at times. Then…. Came all else. Incrementally.
twoleftears
for sure. Thanks much. = == @kosst_amojan > No matter how you cut the cake you're trying to drive a pair of speakers. The sole reason for everything behind them to exist is to exploit their best attributes and potential.
Undoubtedly. = = = = @erik_squires > the argument missing is the room. The room and how speaker friendly it is determines a great deal about what speakers you are going to be able to choose among.
I don’t think this argument is missing, I believe its being avoided. Routinely. Thru numerous speaker swaps in fact. Regards.
@ hddg > get a bad speaker, and you're stuck whatever you do - sure can improve them with very expensive electronics, but the other way around is totally playable.
Very true. Tanks.
Very few people came at this from their own historical ‘very first’ don’t know nuttin much about it but I’m gonna get me some big ass speakers perspective.
Many if not all handed out what their experiences have provided them by way of education. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Those posters with low posting numbers saw it for what it is a bit more clearly. Or at least got out what I was thinking. Naturally all of the feedback provided immense insights into not just the chicken or egg conundrum, but the very integral and finer points of actually choosing speakers. I did not input one word which would have altered this design, ‘destination’.
When I first arrived here all I saw was get the most expensive speakers you can afford. Then buy other things.
I took it to mean buy the speakers you’ll be buried with or possibly ‘in’, first. Ala, destination speakers.
For sure one must fit speakers to the room and your eyes & ears. They may however, not be the ones in the final analysis.
Anything and everything then associated with your speaker selection is in flux, as much as is the speakers you just bought. Although them thar speakers will hang around thru numerous system manipulations and rearrangements.
Then, the beleaguered and beloved transducers must get kicked to the curb and new loves indoctrinated..
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