Speaker size and soundstage
corelli689 posts06-05-2021 8:30amSpeaker size has a lot to do with bass response ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I mean if you are running 12 or 15 inch woofers well then of course you will get rock solid bass, But I expect upper bass is not very musical, So witha single SEas Graphene Excel W22 in a 24x24x12 inch cabinet you can get all the musical bass you need, close to sub bass effect. So true and not true about size cab makes all the difference. |
redwoodaudio274 posts06-05-2021 8:39pmOverall size of the soundstage, specificity/precision of the soundstage, dimensionality of the soundstage, scale of the soundstage are, in my experience, distinct and dependent on multiple variables including electronics, isolation, noise, room, speakers, etc. The only one I’ve found to correlate with size of the speakers/drivers is soundstage scale (eg. musicians and instruments sounding larger or smaller). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WEll yes, my system ina room 2x's the size i have , 10x12 8 ft ceiling, would most likely grant the soundtage air to breathe, more open *larger stage*. Which is why I listen very near field and preamp vol never more than 9 oclock. So yeah, like the only other way to grant larger sound stahe either small, mid or extra large size rooms is via the best option, Yeah you know its comming, thats all I talk about these days is <<Sensitivity> You just KNEW it was a comming. Every time I notched up the sens values on the full range, (tried 4 cheap chinese FR's) each offered a different soundstage size. The lower the distortion = the sweeter the soundstage = more open. Right now i am using the DavidLouis 4 incher as low mids= low highs. Its not bad, = you get what you pay for. = You are not going to get Voxativ quality ina chinese clone at $200/pair, Not going to happen. Livable? eh, maybe, I mean fatigue free for the most part. Sure beats all the other chinese FR and the Seas Millennium tweeter at $700/pair, thats for sure. Its was a a nice lil experiementation in testing dif FR , I have no plans to ck out other chinese made FR, I'm going after the *Real Deal* No not AER, out my budget, as the Thor upgrades broke my budget at $1400. The other *Real Deal* Won;'t mention lab, as *best kept secret* til time comes when I upload a YT vid for you guys. It will be a 3 way. Seas W18E001/dual+ Mystery driver+ Magnovox 1963 tweeter horn, which may be the best tweeter ever invented. = New is not alwasy better. If the mystery speaker performs highs with minimal roll off, I'll take out my fav Magnovox (pulled from Richard Gray's stash room collected over the past decades) as being un-needed. Bottom line = higher you sgo up the sens scale = larger will be soundstage in whatever size room you have. Now why is this? I know the answer only by experiementing with different sens speakers past few months. Everyone should buya cheap FR chinese speaker and test in their system. DavidLouis has many options. Then you can list it on ebay at a 40% reduction. At least now you can compare to what you have. Now you can determine which FR on the high end you can afford. |
@fstary, "I suppose having a system sound like a grand piano in the same room does not mean the system is perfect in all ways, but that memory stuck with me as well." As it should. Most (ok virtually all) of the systems that I've heard had no chance of even getting close to start with. Other genres of music can place serious demands upon your loudspeakers but few make their shortcomings as obvious as piano can. For some speakers it's a risk not worth taking, as I once found out when one of midrange drivers began to make some strange noises when playing back some Glenn Gould. No jokes please. |
In front of or behind the speakers is fine although in my experience the instruments and stage tend to be behind the speakers but this is volume sensitive and will vary depending on the type of speaker you have. If you like the experience you have with instruments imagining outside of the speakers then don't change anything. But, it is an aberration of acoustics and not a product of the reproduction process in 2 channels. I suppose you can get this in a 5.1 system but I wouldn't know as I have never taken them seriously. It is really only useful for theater. Getting two speakers to work in unison is more than enough. |
The mastering engineer can mix any sound/instrument recorded in only three ways all the volume in the right speaker, all the volume in the left speaker then anywhere in between. Unless he resorts to staggering phase and other tricks the sound is going to come from the right speaker, the left speaker and anywhere in between. If an instrument images outside of the stereo pair it might sound cool but there is an acoustical problem with the room. This is the only way that can happen under normal circumstances. Forget about how the recording was made although it is nice to get the acoustic ques of the venue into the recording it is because of their low levels that reflections can compete with them and make it seem as if you are in that venue but the high level of the instruments themselves should always come at or between the speakers. There is no other way to mix them without tricks. This is not IMHO Magister is a matter of fact.You describe here the recording process forgetting that it is not a description of the acoustic experience you just did... I listen to the "Gabrielli" album from Empire brass ensemble for example... The sound comes from the external right and external left OUT of the speakers simultaneously with a very good deep front/back imaging... I listen to many album and many present a deeper front/back imaging sometimes filling the room and between me and the speaker.... I am among the players and not sometimes in front of them at distance... In general more than half of my albums make me forget the location of my speakers because the piano for exemple may sound in my room with a chord distibution from front near me,to back behind the speakers....i am near the piano able to touch the instrument.... Example: Moravec Chopin Nocturnes or Feltsman Bach Well tempered Klavier...Try these 2 and if the piano dont fill the room few inches from you , your system is boring and not acoustically very impressive... Sorry... Buy these 2 albums very well recorded and if the sound dont fill your room your acoustic control is bad ....Simple.... Must I called it a sound between the speakers because you think that it is the norm? The sound is AROUND or coming way out of the space between the speakers and sometimes the 2 at the same times it is relative to the mic location in the initial event... .... You forget that acoustic is NEVER perfectly seized by the recording process but the recreation of the 3-d atmosphere of the initial recording is most of the times possible IF we control the room....It is not magic it is science.... BEFORE my acoustic controls were in place the sound was always between the speakers, never outside them by the right or left and never near me, and never with a great front/back distribution in space.... After with the SAME components the situation were completely different... Then acoustic controls explain it most of the phenomena ( with vibrations control for some degree) |
andy21,365 posts06-16-2021 6:46pmIn general the bigger the speakers the bigger the soundstage. ~~~~~~~ Cavat The bigger the speaker = more likely to be LOUDER vs a 4 inch FR in midarnge, but certainly more likely to have distortion, fatigue. WE are not after huge massive wide soundstage via high db/loudness. Not at all. We are all after the delicate nuances hidden within all music and produced ona level that sparkles with fidelity/clarity. This can only be achieved via high quality full range. Due to its super sensitivity. All speakers under say 92db may produce a huge loud sound stage, but most assuredly will lack the fidelity we all demand. Big speakers, heavy speakers have never impressed me. Back then, nor now. |
Well, I’m no expert, but can only report what I recently heard. I listened to three levels of Focals: Aria, Kanta, and Sopra at a dealer with all the same electronics. While there are other differences of course in design, they all are from the same manufacturer, and all step up incrementally in size. All very good speakers, but without question the sound stage increased by big steps. For me at least, there is a threshold for speakers where they disappear and I am just immersed in the music. So far in my limited experience, the bigger the speakers, the more they “disappear”. Interesting, on my second visit to the listing room, the Sopras were so much smaller than I had remembered because they through such a massive enveloping sound that in mind they had to be huge, but weren’t. When I returned home, I listened to my Electons. They completely fill the room like the Kanta, are less detailed and smoother, and a bit darker. Mind you I have a hybrid amp and my vintage tubes are definitely smoothing the sound. As an aside I recently added a x10 Paradigm sub to my Electrons and it really improved the overall depth of the music and my engagement. |
Mahgister, I did not miss that fact at all. I went out of my way to explain it. The mastering engineer can mix any sound/instrument recorded in only three ways all the volume in the right speaker, all the volume in the left speaker then anywhere in between. Unless he resorts to staggering phase and other tricks the sound is going to come from the right speaker, the left speaker and anywhere in between. If an instrument images outside of the stereo pair it might sound cool but there is an acoustical problem with the room. This is the only way that can happen under normal circumstances. Forget about how the recording was made although it is nice to get the acoustic ques of the venue into the recording it is because of their low levels that reflections can compete with them and make it seem as if you are in that venue but the high level of the instruments themselves should always come at or between the speakers. There is no other way to mix them without tricks. This is not IMHO Magister is a matter of fact. |
One of these is not like the others: "The soundstage starts a few feet behind the speakers, and extends well out into the room, seemingly surrounding you. I've never (in a true two speaker setup) felt so enveloped by the music as I was last night." "The imaging was so good that I felt like the vocalist was performing right in front of me and that I could reach out and touch them." "so far above any system I had heard ...because of the detailed soundstage." "They certainly did not image well when I heard them and I do not think you can get them beyond what I would call standard imaging." Wonder why? |
Since the audio comes out of the speakers, many seem to think they control everything
~~~~ Some of us here do believe Spaekers reign as The Kings in our system,. Power = power. cd player = DAC Phone gets a tad edge vs CDP, Not much. Speakers rule The Crown Jewels I have a 4 inch clone on the Lowther/Fostex design. Its ok, nothing great, at a miserable 91db. I us it for low mids-low highs, Although a tiny 4 inch cone, this lil driver puts out huge massive soundstage that will blow you away in near field/small room acoustics. . = Size does not matter, db sensitivity is all that matters, db sens is the Holy Grail in speaker design. This lil fullrange will match the masssive 300 lb Wilson speakers in midrange soundstage. Size is not materail, Efficiency is all that matters. In mids/highs, Bass is different. |
Electronics and detail matter but It’s mostly about the room acoustics and how the speakers use it relative to the listener. The sound radiation pattern and dispersion being a big factor. All you need to do to prove the room and acoustics is the key is set your system up outside and see how big your soundstage is there regardless of recording. |
The only way that an instrument can appear to come from outside those boundaries is if enough early reflected sound comes back to the listening position from outside those boundaries moving the image to the outside. So by definition you have acoustic interference and distortion of the signal.You miss the fact that the recording engineer placing his different TYPES of mic at different location INTERPRET the acoustical settings of the recording hall or room and TRANSLATE them in a specific atmosphere... This atmosphere is RECREATED with plus or minus success in the acoustical settings of the listener room... Then well controlled a listener room can recreate this atmosphere with an impression of spatiality encompassing the room itsef in some case.... The timing controls of reflections and their ratio early/late coming from not only the side but from the back and front is ONE of my KEY factor to control my imaging/soundstage and source width/ envelopment factors... The other KEY factor is diffusion/absorption balance with the Helmhotz resonators not only with passive material treatment.... What you call an acoustic "distortion", when controlled, is what i called a piano or an orchestra sound OUT of my speakers laterally or/ and in the front/back dimension in my room....It is related also for sure to the way the recording engineer make his acoustical choices ....But the sound ,save in bad recording, is never ONLY between the speakers.... Read this abstract second paragraph attentively: 2aAAS. A new physical measure for psychological evaluation of a soundfield: Front/back energy ratio as a measurefor envelopment.M. Morimoto (Environmental Acoust.Lab.,Facultyof Eng.,KobeUniv., Rokko,Nada,Kobe,657Japan)and K. Iida (Kobe Univ., Kobe,657 JapanandMatsushitaCommun.IndustrialCo., Ltd., Japan) Broadeningis oneof the importantcharacteristics for the psychological evaluationof a soundfield.Severalinvestigations indicatedthatbroadeningwascomprisedoftwoelemental senses, i.e.,auditorysourcewidth(spaciousness) andenvelopment [M. Morimoto et al., Proc. 13th ICA, Belgrade2, 215-218 (1989); J. AcoustSoc.Jpn.46, 449-457 (1990); and Hidaka et al., J. Acoust.Soc.Am. 92, 2469 (A) (1992)]. «They inferred that the degree of interaural cross correlation of late reflections correlated with envelopment. This paper, however, shows the results of psychological experiments that envelopment is affected by the energy ratio of reflections coming from the front of the listener to those coming from the back of the listener,even if the degree of interaural cross correlation of the late reflections are equal.Namely,envelopment grows as the energyof the reflection coming from the back of the listener increases. This result suggests the need to measure the ratio which has never been measure...» Peace and love ! |
I have listened to Moabs and examined the enclosure construction with a woofer removed not to mention the design issues are obvious to look at. IMHO it is a speaker designed t do one thing and one thing only, make as much money as possible. They certainly did not image well when I heard them and I do not think you can get them beyond what I would call standard imaging. Next, I think your description of what I said is a bit harsh. Unless the recording engineer resorts to studio hocus pocus all instruments and voices are recorded within the confines of two channels. If the engineer mixes an instrument hard left (nothing to the right) that instrument will appear to come directly from the left speaker. It is impossible under normal circumstances for an engineer to mix an instrument beyond the confines of the two channels. The only way that an instrument can appear to come from outside those boundaries is if enough early reflected sound comes back to the listening position from outside those boundaries moving the image to the outside. So by definition you have acoustic interference and distortion of the signal. Ideally that should not happen. It is a problem that needs to be fixed. This is different than ambience extending outside the boundaries of the speaker, the sensation of being in a large venue or room other than the one you are in. That information is low level and the late reflections in the room send it back with even more delay simulating a room that is even larger. So, your soundstage extends into the larger venue and you feel as if you are right there in front of the stage. Very cool when it happens. But, instruments do not come from beyond the speakers. If they do you have an acoustic problem as nothing else in my experience will do that except maybe a vivid imagination. I prefer terms that actually describe what is happening. Saying a turntable has good pace to me is ..rather ridiculous. The pace and/or time is determined by the musicians. It is part of the art of music and determines the feeling of the song or music. Nothing in the audio chain is responsible for this unless it is malfunctioning. A turntable or speaker can be dynamic. I know exactly what that term means. Sometimes it is difficult to describe what you are hearing which to me means you have to be even more careful in the way you describe it. Peace and love |
Go Mahgister! I am impressed. You are right about the use of the adjective "stupid".... It is too much and i apologize... BUT Why do you claim something about MOAB speakers you dont own yourself? Why do you claim that ALL people listening to a sound out of their speakers and not only between them are in a collective illusion or ignorant? Why do you claim acoustical falsehood and proclaim them truth : absorbing waves at first reflection point cannot be a universal rule, it is related to each room and speakers relation....The use of reflective panel can be also a tool at these points.... It is related to the precise timing of waves in a specific room and the duration of reverberation time... Why do you think electronical equalization is a solution, when it is at MOST a tool ? My post was a reaction to these 4 points in your post.... This is ignorance and very boring arrogance putting many people testimonies in the same deception bag.....( if you read cautiously my post "egotistical" was not directed against you ) I call your arrogance "boring".... I cannot apologize for this adjective.... |
Go Mahgister! I am impressed. I am; "Ignorant, arrogant, indiscriminate, egotistical, boring, grey and stupid." I don't think you missed a thing. I have no idea why you would expend so much energy on an idiot like me. Seems like a waste of time. In the end Mahgister all one has is experience. Whether or not that experience is applicable to others is for them to decide. I stand firmly behind everything I said. If someone can show me I made a mistake I will be more than happy to apologize. |
In The Absolute Sound Issue 317Jonathan Valin wrote a book review. On page 25 he recalled experiencing Magnaplanar I-U loudspeakers with Audio Research amplification. The year was 1973-1974. He said the system sounded just like the grand piano in the same room. I had a similar experience at the University of Missouri in the living room of a Physicist there in the same time frame. I suppose having a system sound like a grand piano in the same room does not mean the system is perfect in all ways, but that memory stuck with me as well. My Magnepan 1.7i speakers sometimes sound real on rare recordings but cannot compare with that memory. They also needed two subwoofers to be acceptable. Frank |
| Post removed |
Tektons, at least the ones I have heard image poorly. But so do a lot of speakers. This is political incorrectness at it's best but, most people have never heard a system that images at the level the source is capable of and that includes those that would characterize themselves as audiophiles. They parrot the terminology used in the literature which is frequently stupid like "pace" and "timing" and think that echo is the third dimension. It is not. Some speakers like the Tektons are incapable of the best image by design. But, many are capable if managed correctly. What is correctly? The speakers have to be set up in a symmetrical situation.All first reflections need to be dampened with sound absorption. The speakers have to be within 1 dB of each other from 100 Hz to 10 kHz.If they are not all is not lost. You will have to apply digital EQ to make it so. This also allows you to adjust the overall frequency response to produce the sound you like. Doing all of this does not insure you will get the best image. That depends on the speaker's design particularly the crossover. How do you know if you have the best image or not? You have to have heard a system that images at this level. Once you do you will never forget it. If you do not have it now it is all about the speaker and the room. If you are sure you have the room treated correctly then you need to change speakers. I can count the speakers on one hand that I have heard make the magic. Most of the speakers that I have owned did not and only two have really had it. I dont know Tektons... But i know what is acoustic control.... You prove yourself to be an ignorant because you judge all people with ONE experience : yours... This is your sentence: «They parrot the terminology used in the literature which is frequently stupid like "pace" and "timing" and think that echo is the third dimension.» You apply this judgement AGAINST all people indiscriminately, even if each of their experience is different... What arrogance ! And arrogance could be colorful and egotistical, but arrogance could be also grey and boring like stupidity is.,.. And what do you say after these are your words : « Some speakers like the Tektons are incapable of the best image by design. But, many are capable if managed correctly. What is correctly? The speakers have to be set up in a symmetrical situation. All first reflections need to be dampened with sound absorption. The speakers have to be within 1 dB of each other from 100 Hz to 10 kHz.» First you dont have experience with Tekton and claiming that they are "by design" unable to image correctly is a claim so stupid that anybody reading that need no argument to judge you like you are ... I will not use any word... Almost ALL relatively correctly designed speakers are able to image correctly... You affirmation that first reflections must be "dampened with sound absorption" in ALL circonstance and for all room reflect your TOTAL ignorance of acoustic ..... I am surprize by your stupidity because in some other post you reveal that your own speakers electronically equalized image ONLY with a sound between the speakers.... This is very poor experience.... Imaging and soundstage, and source width and listener envelopment are all acoustical factors linked together when any room is under control....mine is and my experience is not a distorted echo, but an orchestra in my room or a piano completely out of the speakers... And my speakers are average good speakers.... NO electronical equalization can do this.... Awake yourself.... |
You have to have heard a system that images at this level. Indeed. You should try it some time. Redmond, WA. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
Tektons, at least the ones I have heard image poorly. But so do a lot of speakers. This is political incorrectness at it's best but, most people have never heard a system that images at the level the source is capable of and that includes those that would characterize themselves as audiophiles. They parrot the terminology used in the literature which is frequently stupid like "pace" and "timing" and think that echo is the third dimension. It is not. Some speakers like the Tektons are incapable of the best image by design. But, many are capable if managed correctly. What is correctly? The speakers have to be set up in a symmetrical situation. All first reflections need to be dampened with sound absorption. The speakers have to be within 1 dB of each other from 100 Hz to 10 kHz. If they are not all is not lost. You will have to apply digital EQ to make it so. This also allows you to adjust the overall frequency response to produce the sound you like. Doing all of this does not insure you will get the best image. That depends on the speaker's design particularly the crossover. How do you know if you have the best image or not? You have to have heard a system that images at this level. Once you do you will never forget it. If you do not have it now it is all about the speaker and the room. If you are sure you have the room treated correctly then you need to change speakers. I can count the speakers on one hand that I have heard make the magic. Most of the speakers that I have owned did not and only two have really had it. |
Tektons have a terrible image. Stay away. Those who have actually heard them beg to differ: The imaging was so good that I felt like the vocalist was performing right in front of me and that I could reach out and touch them. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
Lyndonbell. You are asking about “Crossover settings” on your AVR. YouTube had excellent vids on this subject. This forum is full of nitwits who won’t give a straight answer. As to speaker size, large floor standers xylene to have a rich full sound especially for large rooms. That is my wife’s preference. But nothing to do with soundstage and imaging. Personally I think Sonus faber make some of the best. https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/products/olympica-nova-i/ |
I agree with those who have pointed to adding a pair of Subs to increase your Soundstage, for your situation. Getting another brand of speaker in the same price point is more of a lateral move than an investment in achieving your goals. I have speakers that perform very well within a frequency response between 30/28Hz - 40KHz. That said, after a few years I found myself wanting a more dynamic soundstage without breaking the bank. By adding a pair of REL subwoofers, I was able to extract deeper, cleaner bass, fleshed out detail in the midrange and greater sense of spatial separation. I would guess that the low frequency is about 20/22Hz. Good Luck |
Check out Tannoy's. After a year of moving things around and learning more about speaker setup, I finally found the magical position for the Turnberry's. Since then, it's been heaven. Nice wide and tall soundstage and I have depth. Imaging is excellent. 15x20 room with not a whole lot of room treatment. My listening area is open and no clutter near the speakers or in front of the listening position. Gear is also down low and horizontal. It makes a difference. More room treatment and solid doors are next on the to-do list. |
You have gotten very good obervations; Flat repsonse speakers, on and off axis speaker repositioning. The record mixer was likely mixingat a nearfield, classical 30/30 deg traingle position room character upsetting that flat speaker head position aligned with the tweeter and/or mid intersection first wall reflections along that same ear level blur the original image near field = more direct orignally recorded clues and information versus more reflections from your room I have had 7' 6" line arrays and stand mounted two ways. The points above make the image, not the speaker size. Who listens 6" from your ceiling? And we aren't in control of the recording Mixer's sound field positioning. Sometimes they try to make that flute stretch 8 feet between your speakers??? Happy hunting. |
w123ale, you have to close your eyes when you listen to remove visual ques from the equation. Tektons have a terrible image. Stay away. There are only two sizes of sound stage, point source and line source. Line source speakers of which there are very few which are truly full range produce a large up front sound stage. Point source speakers, of which there are many produce a smaller "miniature" sound stage. You can adjust the situation somewhat with speaker spacing and listening position distance but if you like sitting in the first 10 rows you need to search for a line source speaker or partial line source speaker like Magnapans or any number of ESLs. The only full range line source that I know of on the market right now is the Sound Labs 845 or 945. Point source speakers are a dime a dozen, you have to chose your own poison. |
According to some comments it seems that Harry Potter was selling cables to some members of this forum ... I will never cease to be surprised by the capabilities that some people assign to a couple of cables. Soundstage, breadth, depth? engineers and years of studies to understand and build systems that offer specific characteristics to the sound like those mentioned above (and the interaction with the listening room) but it turns out that all this does not really matter ... you just have to change the cables! Yes baby!! |
Sensitivity is by definition the response to an input. The lower the sensitivity the more power required for any given input, the less sensitive the speaker. Since the magic of imaging resides in low level fine detail it stands to reason the low sensitivity speaker is other things being equal at a disadvantage. Other things never are equal, but to the extent they are, there you go. Not mentioning the room at all, just the loudspeakers, in regards to imaging. Assuming that imaging and soundstage are both married to the degree to which the loudspeaker can recreate the information captured in the recording and editing? ** I cannot identify that the two are not the same, either??** As I prefer the term spacial information, it is best conveyed when whatever type of speakers used, inject as little distortion and noise into the voicing of the music played. A presentation, that gets the speakers out of the way of the sound produced. This would include and not limited to, frequency response, cabinet resonances, driver resonances, breakout response of drivers controlled by the crossover, the electrical noise introduced by the crossover, the noise introduced by the drivers and the materials in their composition. In the case of multi driver designs, crossover points, anti-phase and matching drivers that work harmoniously together. One design in particular is considered an imaging and soundstage champion....and it’s not efficient. Case in point: Electrostatic panels. According to J. Gordon Holt’s audio glossary, “imaging is the measure of a system’s ability to float stable and specific phantom images, reproducing the original sizes and locations of the instruments across the soundstage.” J. Gordon’s description of “soundstaging” further elaborates the concept, “The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.”Source - https://audiophilereview.com/reference-speakers/on-imaging-and-loudspeakers/ And yes I am contradicting something I said earlier in this discussion, that may not have been entirely correct. |
Since the magic of imaging resides in low level fine detail it stands to reason the low sensitivity speaker is other things being equal at a disadvantag
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ **Low level fine details** Yes The nunances and subtilities spread throughout most classical music, require a high sensitivity speaker to voice these low level, quite often smothered over by blaring brass section. THe higher sensitivity you go, the superior the soundstage and imaging. These 2 are the same. Lets not split hairs, |
Hello, I am going to suggest Audio Physic 25 speakers. They are skinny towers but have an eight inch woofer inside the cabinet that is down ported. Due to the skinny design the midrange and tweeter can get around the cabinet. Due to the 8” driver you get great bass. The Tekton speakers that have the speaker array can do this also. The Audio Physics 25 speakers are semi cat proof due to the design. |
Sensitivity is by definition the response to an input. The lower the sensitivity the more power required for any given input, the less sensitive the speaker. Since the magic of imaging resides in low level fine detail it stands to reason the low sensitivity speaker is other things being equal at a disadvantage. Other things never are equal, but to the extent they are, there you go. Thank you for taking the time to explain it. The theory makes sense. The old Spica TC-50 comes to mind as a possible exception. I think they had a sensitivity rating of like 83db, but were well known as sound stage titans. |
Imaging is determined by the fidelity with which extremely fine and subtle details are reproduced. Sensitivity is by definition the response to an input. The lower the sensitivity the more power required for any given input, the less sensitive the speaker. Since the magic of imaging resides in low level fine detail it stands to reason the low sensitivity speaker is other things being equal at a disadvantage. Other things never are equal, but to the extent they are, there you go. |
Soundstage is defined by the sensitivity of the speaker and quality of materials used in construction (= engineering) of the speaker. Quality of materials is certainly a factor that I agree with, and think few would dispute. Sensitivity? ...as it relates to efficiency? I’m going to need some help understanding that one as an influence on the soundstage. |
I will assume that you have won the first battle involving floor standing speakers female approval. This is usually the first issue for most of us. Now onward and speaker size along is such a small part of this formula. Yes bigger can make a huge difference if you can cover an entire wall with drivers but it does have to fit the decor. Salk can produce some fantastic solution with moderate foot prints. Same with Vandersteen. I cant comment on others as they are the only two I know. |
knotscott90 posts06-06-2021 5:39amSound stage has more to do with phasing, crossover points, driver dispersion, driver placement, and the shape and size of t ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Soundstage is defined by the sensitivity of the speaker and quality of materials used in construction (= engineering) of the speaker. These 2 factors will determine soundstage. |
Wouldn't the end goal of loudspeaker design be to get as small as possible?
~~~~~~~~~~ This is the new science, The New 21wst C speaker is a lotttt smaller , much less weight vs the old models and is far superior in soundstage/fidelity. My Seas W18E001 are housed in a Thor cabinet, weighing like 60 lbs, I could easily build a cabinet from snaded plya from HD and build a cabinet that weighs ,,ohh say, 25 lbs, sound is equal. The new speakers in the future will be much smaller in size, weight and price. |
Many times a simple two way monitor will offer a superior and huge image
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Size again does not matter. Huge speakers always, always lose out vs a high quality 2 way,. Take a Seas W22 Graphene with Mundorf;'s SESGO caps + a massive Gertz copper coil and add a Voxativ 8 inch model. maybe add a tweeter horn or a AMT Neo tweeter and you havea speaker that weighs less than 50 lbs and blows away any speaker 10X;s its size. Size of speaker has absoluetly nothing whatsoever to do with huge massive gigantic sound stage, Sensitivity makes sound stage. |
I don't know if there is an agreed "package" that delivers the goods you speak of. Too many variables. I say this because of a past experience. I heard the Soundsmith Strain Gauge cartridge thru Peters small, average looking bookshelves which made HUGE music coming out of them. They didn't sound like wimpy little bookshelves. Never experienced that ever again. This was achieved with one of my "stampers" played on a VPI HRX. Really a "pedestrian" setup by audiophool standards. Recording will play a major part of getting that immersive experience. |
