Speaker size and soundstage

The mastering engineer can mix any sound/instrument recorded in only three ways all the volume in the right speaker, all the volume in the left speaker then anywhere in between. Unless he resorts to staggering phase and other tricks the sound is going to come from the right speaker, the left speaker and anywhere in between. If an instrument images outside of the stereo pair it might sound cool but there is an acoustical problem with the room. This is the only way that can happen under normal circumstances. Forget about how the recording was made although it is nice to get the acoustic ques of the venue into the recording it is because of their low levels that reflections can compete with them and make it seem as if you are in that venue but the high level of the instruments themselves should always come at or between the speakers. There is no other way to mix them without tricks. This is not IMHO Magister is a matter of fact.

You describe here the recording process forgetting that it is not a description of the acoustic experience you just did...

I listen to the "Gabrielli" album from Empire brass ensemble for example...

The sound comes from the external right and external left OUT of the speakers simultaneously with a very good deep front/back imaging...

I listen to many album and many present a deeper front/back imaging sometimes filling the room and between me and the speaker.... I am among the players and not sometimes in front of them at distance...

In general more than half of my albums make me forget the location of my speakers because the piano for exemple may sound in my room with a chord distibution from front near me,to back behind the speakers....i am near the piano able to touch the instrument....

Example: Moravec Chopin Nocturnes or Feltsman Bach Well tempered Klavier...Try these 2 and if the piano dont fill the room few inches from you , your system is boring and not acoustically very impressive... Sorry...
Buy these  2  albums very well recorded and if the sound dont fill your room your acoustic control is bad ....Simple....

Must I called it a sound between the speakers because you think that it is the norm? The sound is AROUND or coming way out of the space between the speakers and sometimes the 2 at the same times it is relative to the mic location in the initial event... ....


You forget that acoustic is NEVER perfectly seized by the recording process but the recreation of the 3-d atmosphere of the initial recording is most of the times possible IF we control the room....It is not magic it is science....

BEFORE my acoustic controls were in place the sound was always between the speakers, never outside them by the right or left and never near me, and never with a great front/back distribution in space....

After with the SAME components the situation were completely different...

Then acoustic controls explain it most of the phenomena ( with vibrations control for some degree)

The only way that an instrument can appear to come from outside those boundaries is if enough early reflected sound comes back to the listening position from outside those boundaries moving the image to the outside. So by definition you have acoustic interference and distortion of the signal.

You miss the fact that the recording engineer placing his different TYPES of mic at different location INTERPRET the acoustical settings of the recording hall or room and TRANSLATE them in a specific atmosphere...

This atmosphere is RECREATED with plus or minus success in the acoustical settings of the listener room...

Then well controlled a listener room can recreate this atmosphere with an impression of spatiality encompassing the room itsef in some case....



The timing controls of reflections and their ratio early/late coming from not only the side but from the back and front is ONE of my KEY factor to control my imaging/soundstage and source width/ envelopment factors... The other KEY factor is diffusion/absorption balance with the Helmhotz resonators not only with passive material treatment....

What you call an acoustic "distortion", when controlled, is what i called a piano or an orchestra sound OUT of my speakers laterally or/ and in the front/back dimension in my room....It is related also for sure to the way the recording engineer make his acoustical choices ....But the sound ,save in bad recording, is  never  ONLY between the speakers....



Read this abstract second paragraph attentively:

2aAAS. A new physical measure for psychological evaluation of a soundfield: Front/back energy ratio as a measurefor
envelopment.M. Morimoto (Environmental Acoust.Lab.,Facultyof Eng.,KobeUniv., Rokko,Nada,Kobe,657Japan)and
K. Iida (Kobe Univ., Kobe,657 JapanandMatsushitaCommun.IndustrialCo., Ltd., Japan)
Broadeningis oneof the importantcharacteristics for the psychological evaluationof a soundfield.Severalinvestigations
indicatedthatbroadeningwascomprisedoftwoelemental senses, i.e.,auditorysourcewidth(spaciousness) andenvelopment [M.
Morimoto et al., Proc. 13th ICA, Belgrade2, 215-218 (1989); J. AcoustSoc.Jpn.46, 449-457 (1990); and Hidaka et al., J.
Acoust.Soc.Am. 92, 2469 (A) (1992)].


«They inferred that the degree of interaural cross correlation of late reflections correlated
with envelopment. This paper, however, shows the results of psychological experiments that envelopment is affected by the energy
ratio of reflections coming from the front of the listener to those coming from the back of the listener,even if the degree of
interaural cross correlation of the late reflections are equal.Namely,envelopment grows as the energyof the reflection coming
from the back of the listener increases. This result suggests the need to measure the ratio which has never been measure...»


Peace and love !

Go Mahgister! I am impressed.

You are right about the use of the adjective "stupid".... It is too much and i apologize...


BUT

Why do you claim something about MOAB speakers you dont own yourself?

Why do you claim that ALL people listening to a sound out of their speakers and not only between them are in a collective illusion or ignorant?

Why do you claim acoustical falsehood and proclaim them truth : absorbing waves at first reflection point cannot be a universal rule, it is related to each room and speakers relation....The use of reflective panel can be also a tool at these points.... It is related to the precise timing of waves in a specific room and the duration of reverberation time...

Why do you think electronical equalization is a solution, when it is at MOST a tool ?

My post was a reaction to these 4 points in your post....

This is ignorance and very boring arrogance putting many people testimonies in the same deception  bag.....( if you read cautiously my post "egotistical" was not directed against you ) I call your arrogance "boring"....

I cannot apologize for this adjective....

Tektons, at least the ones I have heard image poorly. But so do a lot of speakers. This is political incorrectness at it's best but, most people have never heard a system that images at the level the source is capable of and that includes those that would characterize themselves as audiophiles. They parrot the terminology used in the literature which is frequently stupid like "pace" and "timing" and think that echo is the third dimension. It is not. Some speakers like the Tektons are incapable of the best image by design. But, many are capable if managed correctly. What is correctly? The speakers have to be set up in a symmetrical situation.All first reflections need to be dampened with sound absorption. The speakers have to be within 1 dB of each other from 100 Hz to 10 kHz.If they are not all is not lost. You will have to apply digital EQ to make it so. This also allows you to adjust the overall frequency response to produce the sound you like. Doing all of this does not insure you will get the best image. That depends on the speaker's design particularly the crossover. How do you know if you have the best image or not? You have to have heard a system that images at this level. Once you do you will never forget it. If you do not have it now it is all about the speaker and the room. If you are sure you have the room treated correctly then you need to change speakers. I can count the speakers on one hand that I have heard make the magic. Most of the speakers that I have owned did not and only two have really had it.

 I dont know Tektons...

 But i know what is acoustic control....


You prove yourself  to be an ignorant because you judge all people with ONE experience : yours...

 This is  your sentence:
«They parrot the terminology used in the literature which is frequently stupid like "pace" and "timing" and think that echo is the third dimension.»

 You apply this judgement AGAINST all people indiscriminately, even if  each of their experience is different...

What arrogance ! And  arrogance could be colorful and egotistical, but arrogance could be also  grey and boring like  stupidity is.,..

 And  what do you say after these are your words :

«
Some speakers like the Tektons are incapable of the best image by design. But, many are capable if managed correctly. What is correctly? The speakers have to be set up in a symmetrical situation.
All first reflections need to be dampened with sound absorption. The speakers have to be within 1 dB of each other from 100 Hz to 10 kHz.»

 First you dont have experience with Tekton and claiming that they are "by design" unable to image correctly  is  a claim so stupid that anybody reading that need no argument to judge you like you are ... I will not use any word... 

Almost ALL relatively correctly designed speakers are able to image correctly...

 You affirmation that first reflections must be "dampened with sound absorption" in ALL circonstance and for all room reflect your TOTAL ignorance of acoustic .....


 I am surprize by your stupidity because in some other post you reveal that your own  speakers electronically  equalized image ONLY  with a sound between the speakers....

 This is very poor experience....

 Imaging and soundstage, and source width and listener envelopment are all acoustical factors linked together when any room is under control....mine is and my experience is not a distorted echo, but an orchestra in my room or a piano completely out of the speakers... And my speakers are average good speakers....

 NO electronical equalization can do this.... Awake yourself....