Speaker shootout update; aggressive treble eliminating some (fairly?)
The room is tough, but you understand, how important it is to address, that is the key.. As much "CORRECT" room treatment, as you can handle. It's gonna be right over your head and corners, for sound anyways. Don't go to many directions.. Most speakers will work, just not to tall of a speaker, MTM will work better, if you can clock the tweeter, that's a big plus too. Regards |
As usual, there is a divergence of opinions. I agree with a lot that has already been said, but I'm going to try to tie together the best of it and add one or two other points.
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The problem is @hilde45 isnt willing to have his speakers retuned but still wants optimum sound quality. You cant have it both ways. The fact of the matter is the speaker crossover does make a big difference to how harsh it sounds and nothing else you do will mitigate that. The problem could be something as simple as the tweeter level being set too high. If you dont want to accept the answer to your problem theres no point in seeking help. |
When it comes to difficult rooms, less/smaller speaker is often the ticket to better results (with fewer room treatments). Once you have a handle on the frequencies where most of the music occurs, ie the midrange, then you might consider adding powered sub or two if needed/desired and have the flexibility of setup that approach offers. I am a big Dynaudio fan but will be surprised if those resolve the issue. I have heard my older Dynaudio Contours lean towards a tad bright with some amps which is exactly what the reviews indicated. I have heard Fritz Carrerra not Carbon and still assert you would be hard pressed to do any better than that (with low stands) in that room. The easy load of the Fritz at least helps assure that amp matching is not likely a problem. Not the case with Dynaudio in my experience. Dynaudio are wonderful but only with the right amp up to the task and that is not most tube amps. I have heard Salk and they have yet to catch my ear but not enough experience to know what to expect with those. I think the fast path to a solution will be getting things tuned in/optimized around the Fritz along the lines discussed. I would focus on that were it me before adding expense of other speakers, but I know rolling speakers is a lot of fun if you have the time, money and patience and you don’t know what you will get until you hear it. Once things were tuned in with the Fritz, it would then serve as a good reference I think to then perhaps try others, if still of interest. |
@dougsat Yes, it has been fun to try stuff! What's harder is uncovering one's own misconceptions and sometimes big blind spots. But it's all growth, so I feel fortunate. I have *some* notion that a smaller tower — a slim, shorter one like the Spendor or Dyn 30 — might work, but if not, I think the bookshelf option is a good place to head back to. @mboldda1 Interesting proposition but I really need speakers I can try and return easily for free. With The Music Room in my backyard, I have an ever-rotating supply of very good things to try. I just drive up there and bring it home. 14 days later, if it doesn't work, I drive back. 30 minutes each way. Free, from start to finish. @djones Gotcha. No headphones, please. I'll go with correction of some sort but first I need a best first foot forward with a speaker. @brownsfan Great points. The only things I'd add about the room is that there is a short entrance hallway along one sidewall which makes first reflection on the right side a non issue. On the left side, the side wall is also so far that first reflection isn't an issue. There is also a hallway in the rear which lets some energy out. In other words, it's not a hermetic box. I don't know what that does to the sound, but I thought I'd mention it. I will try the flutter echo test, though in my situation, the sound from the speakers is more or less direct given what I've mentioned above. I'll go get the REW software. @kenjit The problem is @hilde45 isnt willing to have his speakers retuned but still wants optimum sound quality. You cant have it both ways.The problem is you're not reading what I said. I am in the process of trying and returning. If you can't read what I've written, then don't respond to it. Otherwise, you're just scribbling graffiti on the forum wall. @mapman Think you're right about bookshelves. I do have a REL sub. I'm concerned about the Dyns needing power but these towers are 88 db, though they are 4 ohm. That said, anyone who knows the Quicksilver Mono blocks will probably testify to their ability to drive a lot of speakers. At any rate, this will be a free experiment with local pickup and return. |
@hilde45, With low ceiling, you may wanna consider low profile stand with your bookshelf speakers, https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa2ggb-custom-oak-speaker-stands-free-usps-priority-shipping-spe... |
I don't know if this will work, but here's a diagram: https://tinyurl.com/y26272p4 |
Shorter good quality towers is probably a decent option like monitors, as long as tweets are lower. I would often suggest someone having brightness issues and willing to try something completely different consider Ohm Walsh speakers, which tend to be more laid back and seldom ever exhibit brightness. The maker voices them to sound like what he hears in his favorite seats at Carnegie Hall and having heard both, I’d say he does a good job of that. A pair of microwalsh speakers would be a relatively low cost experiment and the liberal in house audition period and return policy would help. I think the smaller models would meet the height requirements for your case. Just having a discussion with John Strohbeen at Ohm about your specific room might be insightful. He tends to have a great focus of getting the right speakers into each person's unique room. Here are the stands I use with my small monitors in my wife’s acoustically challenged sun-room: https://www.guitarcenter.com/IsoAcoustics/ISO-130-Isolation-Stands-for-Studio-Monitors-Pair-1500000214884.gc?cntry=us&source=4WWRWXML&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=%5BADL%5D%20%5BGC%5D%20%5BLIA%5D%20%5BCurbside%20Pickup%5D%20-%20(Accessories%20-%20Studio%20Furniture)%20-%20%7BMQ%7D&utm_term=4578297733882292&utm_content=%5BLIA%5D%20Accessories%20-%20Studio%20Furniture%20(GC)&adlclid=ADL-9b30c280-0ba8-4008-9e9c-778a263ac543 Low, inexpensive and very effective. Can be tilted upwards slightly if needed. Just make sure you get the right size for any particular monitor. Also an amp may be up to the task of driving harder load speakers, but they will still distort less and perform their best with an easy load, which puts you in the best place you can be to help take that factor out of things. That’s typically where the Fritz excel. |
@mapman Thanks. I'm saving the page for those stands. Your point about amps not being taxed to do the work (even if they're up to the challenge) is good advice and I'll factor it in. I was very interested in Ohm for a while. (Kept seeing them on the Bosch TV show.) A lot of places that have home trial seem great but will cost more than a few $$ for return shipping. I tried the Martin Logans from Crutchfield rather than Music Direct or Audio Advisor because Crutchfield is free shipping to me and $10/speaker (I kid you now) for the return. Music Direct/Audio Advisor those speakers would be about $250 to ship back. |
I went through many speakers. Vienna acoustics use quality tweeters that offer exceptional resolution without being sibilant or ever sounding harsh. the Beethovens are hard to beat at the price.. Revel speakers didn't sound bright and are probably a great choice for ht. Kef can sound bright with the wrong amp. Usher was a great experience and I love meridian. The affordable Dynaudio's don't use the esotar tweeter and won't sound as resolving, but they make up for it in the bass. |
I am in the process of trying and returning.How does that affect anything I've said? You are seeking a speaker that has a specific frequency response. You are hoping that you come across a speaker that by chance matches your requirement. Whereas all it could have taken is a simple reduction in tweeter level by the designer. Can you not see why custom tuning is the answer and that mass produced speakers are not the answer? |
Meanwhile, back at the Millercarbon Ranch, one pair of speakers were ordered, delivered, set up, and there they will remain. Permanently etched, like the smile on my face. One and done. Coincidentally, at $4500 right at your budget. Of course they cannot be returned for free. Oh well. Good luck with your driving back and forth. |
One and done. That’s so much easier. How nice to just know what right is. I envy those who are decades into this hobby who don’t need to research, ask questions, buy and try and return. Then again, I'm kind of enjoying this process. Which I suppose is why anyone already settled with a good system is even online to talk about it in the first place. |
..except MC is not being forthcoming because on his thread about his new speakers he indicates he will be making various thus far undisclosed modifications so it does not appear to be etched and done at all. Which is it? Knowing MC it will be both at the same time as best serves him. Sorry to digress...... |
Dude, you’ve got a great room apart from the ceilings. I’d change the whole orientation Brother. You need to set your room up long wise, if that makes sense. Is the room strictly yours and mainly for listening purposes? you should set your equipment up where the bed is and put the bed wherever it ends up after you’ve set up your listening area. If it were me, I’d buy 6 panels and get to rearranging. Acoustic treatments come up on c-list sometimes but sell quick. I’ll keep my eyes peeled for you. I’d put the system where the bed is. Pull them3 feet out from the front wall, 2 feet from the side walls and sit 9-10 feet back. The room is a big part of what you hear with a system and you’ve got some great dimensions apart from the low ceiling but no biggie. If I were able to drive I’d bring the carreras up and help you re arrange but my clutch leg is down and I can’t drive 🤷🏼♂️ I helped a friend (well a few friends) and my brother with a set-up and they are pretty much identical. Kef LS50w’s and a sub. My friends set-up is one of the best I have heard, a 9 from 1-10, and my brothers is a 6. Same set-up, different room and execution. speaker placement, listening seat placement make huge differences. You could have your speakers pulled far away from any walls and have a listening position far from any walls as well and thats really the direction you should go, IF you can. |
“..except MC is not being forthcoming because on his thread about his new speakers he indicates he will be making various thus far undisclosed modifications so it does not appear to be etched and done at all”. @mapman, You’re spot on with your post about millercarbon.....if his new speakers as he says perfect he wouldn’t have grand plans to modify them in three phases. We all know the old saying "You get what your pay for". |
You’re spot on with your post about millercarbon.....if his new speakers as he says perfect he wouldn’t have grand plans to modify them in three phases.EMBEDDING speakers rightfully, mechanically, electrically, and acoustically is not the same than UPGRADING some of their parts( legitimate for those who want to improve the speakers)... All speakers NEED to be embed in these three dimensions.... We must then distinguish between modyfying, upgrading parts, and embedding them.... Decreasing vibrations from a crossover for example is a modification that is welcome in ALL speakers.... Using a device like my "golden plate" or a Emat to lower the electrical noise floor is welcome on any speakers even one million dollars one... No piece of gear, be it speakers, dac, amplifier, is at his true potential right out of the box without means implemented to embed them in these 3 dimensions...Thinkin that any piece of gear is what it can be right out of the box, without any work at all to embed them in the room, in the house, and with all the other gear, it is ignorance pure and simple.... Some knows that, most dont even understand what i speak about..... It seems to me millercarbon understand something.... That’s all.... |
@b_limo et al. Can’t really do the setup as suggested, as it’s a guest bedroom. Plus, set up along the long wall, I’ve got side wall reflections ping ponging all the way along. Short wall has a lot of recommenders, too, but I’m not ginning up that debate. I understand why you're saying it though, given the ceiling challenge I described. I will be able to move this system in a couple years to a larger room (35 x 25 x 11 ft. ceilings) and the wife’s given me a green light to work with the architect to make the room set up for audio. At that point, I’d likely go for different speakers. MC, how many speakers have you owned over the years? How many have you tried? |
@hilde45 Would it not be worth trying, though some work, just swapping the location of the gear/couch and the bed? Don't know often you actually have stay over house guest as opposed to how often you use your system but I don't it is in any way comparable. Also in reference to the new version of the Carbon 7 while still using a Scan Speak soft dome tweeter it is from farther down the line than those used in the higher models like the Rev 7SE and the LS 7 which use the Illuminator and Revelator tweeters. I own the Carrera SE with the Transducer Labs beryllium tweeter and it is not bright so I don't suspect the newer variation with the Satori Be tweeter is either. It may have just come down to a supply problem with Transducer Labs during the Pandemic. Also a help in that room might be to borrow an adjustable office/computer chair and adjust the height in small increments plus with the chair to the lowest setting you could use lower stands. The suggestion of the foward tilt is also a great suggestion as you won't have to tilt that much but use Blu Tak under the speakers for safety. That along with an adjustable chair might help you narrow the problem down a bit. The SS6 may in fact be the speaker for you but you won't know it unless you get some sort of handle on that room with the speakers you have access to now. |
hilde, The speakers are directional so the most higher frequency energy fires straight ahead. I’d expect way more distance to the facing wall to be beneficial in reducing reflections overall. That and/or lowering the speaks as discussed (combined perhaps with a tad of tilt back to increase distance to opposite wall even slightly)) to reduce ceiling reflection. Worth a try just to find out if possible. Then maybe just some treatment on side walls at prime reflection points to you main listening position to further damp the side walls if needed. Also listening nearfield sounds like a good idea even if just as a test to minimize effects of room acoustics, which is what you are striving for. |
1. If I understand correctly, the Fritz Carbon's did not cause any problems. Based on that, the VA's won't either. As the Fritz's don't seem to be your be-all end-all, the VA's would definitely be worth auditioning, as they are a very fine speaker cut, broadly speaking, from the same acoustic cloth. 2. I'm not sure what the difference is between, say, a 14" monitor on a 26" stand vs. a 40" tower. At all events, the VA's have adjustable spikes, so I suppose you could always tilt them a little down. |
“No piece of gear, be it speakers, dac, amplifier, is at his true potential right out of the box without means implemented to embed them in these 3 dimensions...Thinkin that any piece of gear is what it can be right out of the box, without any work at all to embed them in the room, in the house, and with all the other gear, it is ignorance pure and simple.... Some knows that, most dont even understand what i speak about.....” @mahgister, One look at your system and we get exactly what you speak of, just because most of us don’t go to the length of ‘Frankenstein’ our systems does not mean we don’t know what these three dimensions you often preach here. Give it a rest please and I mean no disrespect to what you have accomplished with your system! |
I can’t believe the unending debate on whether equipment breaks in or the ear accustoms itself to equipment. Equipment break-in-- particularly for electro-mechanical devices like speakers-- is for real. I’ll bet that most speakers that are put up for resale or returned to dealers never get through that process. At the moment I’m breaking in a pair of Purifi PTT6.5-W04 mid/woofers. They sounded fine out of the box, but get better and better and better and better out to a hundred hours or more. A delimited in-home demo of new equipment is mostly useless. |
Agree with other posters about relocating the audio system and speakers to the bed location area, lengthwise. Even for a short term period, with hefty AC romex extension cables - if required. Should help gain further insight to that room and what else may be possible. Or go rent a small hotel conference room and re-test there! :) Reconfigure, re-test, report changes. |
@jackd It would be worth trying that. I’m suspicious that 6.5 ft ceilings will be a problem wherever the TOWER speakers are, but if I don’t try, I’ll never know. That said, I am NOT having a problem with any bookshelves I’ve tried in the room, so it may already simply be conclusive that (a) big towers won’t work, (b) bookshelves do work, and (c) small mini-towers might work. @mapman See above. The tweaks are a good idea but not really applicable to towers. I’ll try that on stand mounts if I notice an issue. Listening with the speakers along the long wall almost creates a nearfield listening situation, by the way. But with towers, at least ones with AMT or Focal's metal tweeters, the ceiling interferes. I suspect it would interfere wherever I put a tower. I have two sets of stands to work with are: 25" and 20". Thanks for the additional option! @twoleftears Re: (2) you make a good point. Fritz’s tweeters are about 3 feet from the ceiling and the Martin Logans AMT tweeter is the same. But the energy coming out of those AMTs is probably greater and has a different dispersion pattern; I’m not sure how far the Focals were from the ceiling. Maybe it just comes down to the tweeter difference, given the room. No reason to exclude the VA’s, then — you’re right. There’s a store that carries VA stuff in Denver — Soundings. I might reach out to them if the current crop of possibilities dry up. @dgarretson I can’t believe the unending debate on whether equipment breaks in or the ear accustoms itself to equipment.While that issue surfaced momentarily in this discussion, it’s not really been the focus. Thank god. I have no desire to see it debated here. |
@hilde45 I don't think changing from the long wall to the short wall will do anything for tower speakers either especially if they are over the height of the average bookshelf and stand needed for proper ear level. It should however make the room issues easier to tame as the space will be more defined. Whatever bookshelf you end up with be it the Salk, one of the Fritz's or others a lower stand and a lower adjustable chair should help. A pair of bass traps in the corner, diffuser panels behind each speaker would be a start and then one of the cheaper rectangular panels for the first reflection point. Get the front baffle 36" from the rear wall and the sides two feet and work from there. Either the Salk's or the Fritz's should love your QS gear as both Jim and Fritz use tube amps at home though Fritz is prone to changing up a lot like I am. I have tried my Carrera's with six different amps and integrated's with two being tubes and they have shined with all of them. Though I certainly don't need more speakers I have been really tempted by the pair of LS-7R's listed on Audiocircle at that price. |
Dude, stuff that bed in that far back cutout, get a nice down comforter and pillows and your guests will thank hou for a properly set up 2 channel stereo, lol. serioudly, how often do you have guests? How often do you listen to your stereo? Besides, you don’t want them gettin too comfy; they may never leave. I think the issues you were having were tweeter material, not tweeter distance to ceiling. Slap your rig on that wall where the bed is currently. Pull the speakers waay out from the front wallso you get a nice deep soundstage. Pull them 2 feetfromthe sidewalls. Put your sweet spot equal distance from the speakers in relation to the distance between the speakers. Play with toe in. I’m surprised no one has mentioned trying to flip the bookshelf speakers upside down too. Another thing to add, don’t put a coffee table in between you and the speakers. Start looking at how sound is going to reflect off every wall, floor, ceiling, table etc. Its best to start with a naked room, treat the walls, set up your stereo and dial it in, then start putting furniture back in one piece at a time. If you are trying to accomplish the best possible sound with what you have, you have to be willing to make compromises with the other things in the room before making compromises to your stereo set-up. Anyhow, have fun and report back! |
Oh, to add to the Fritz info, I’ve also been tempted to buy those Ls7’s for sale right now... please, someone else buy them so I don’t have to eat Ramen for the rest of the year! He did switch to the SB Satori BE’s due to availability issues with the Transducer Labs BE, not covid related. I’ve heard both, I own the newer ones with the SB’s, and they sound nearly identical. Fritz is the Man and I love his speakers. He’s great to work with and has a true passion for building awesome speakers. He’s not in it for the money, fame or girls either, lol, just a genuinely awesome guy. I can’t say enough good things about him or his speakers. The more time I spend with the Carreras, the more I love them. I think Mahgister was just sticking up for MC in saying that you can squeeze more out of any product if you are willing to do so, and I agree. I think in orser to get to that top level of sound, you need to start doing some crazy things, and its not always about more money. I think MC knows what he is talking about and is extremely helpful to anyone who asks. He can come off as conceited sometimes, which is a shame because overall, I think he’s actually a good guy. And last, I’m not saying that changing the orientation of your set-up is going to solve the issue you are having with bright speakers but it should just sound better all the way around. I’m guessing that the majority of people here have their systems setup on the short wall, not the long. I would even go so far as to say that your low ceilings aren’t causing the brightness problem you are experiencing. I think that is due to speakers that are bright or that those speakers need more current. I also think that you, like many others here, don’t love bright speakers. Bright speakers sell in 5 minute demos, not 5 hour long listening sessions. You may prefer really laid back speakers like Harbeth. Just because they are laid back, does not mean they lack detail. It’s my guess though that you’re going to love the Salks. They are on a higher level thananything you’ve had in your room yet. When will they be there? |
I experimented by changing the room orientation. It made no difference in brightness of the sound. Many people talk about the non-harsh qualities of the AMT tweeter so I am not really sure where it is coming from if it is not the room. However, it doesn’t matter because those speakers, the towers, are going back. I would add that the soundstage and imaging along the long wall is perfectly fine and I cannot discombobulate the room anyway. This issue of long wall versus short wall is another one of those non-never ending debates so I do not want to invoke it here. Lots of arguments can be found on this threads on Agon, etc. So it’s on to the next thing! |
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@hilde45, Check out the bookshelf speakers in this video, if the sound impresses you then you may pursue the speakers at Taylorspeakers.com. https://youtu.be/kgaUQO4lvII http://taylorspeakers.com |
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Another very good value speaker model that just came to mind that I found to be most polite in the top end are Goldenear Aon3. Thing is the MLs, which I have not heard, appear to use a similar folded ribbon tweet like the Goldenear so it surprises me that they would be offensive but have never auditioned carefully so don’t know. Could be impedance/drive issues contributing to the problem? Stereophile reviews when available usually provide the measurements needed to assess properly. Given the Fritz speakers did not exhibit the problematic brightness I still suspect that is a contributing factor to some degree. It’s often not just one factor alone that sinks the ship. |
@lalitk I'll take a listen. Though I'm not sure how people make sense of a speaker which is through different electronics, in a different room, via a microphone, through my laptop and headphones. What of the original sound survives all that? Taylor speakers have a try at home possibility or not? @squeak I've heard good things about NHT but I'm pretty sure a tower with that many drivers is one main cause of the problems I've experienced. @mapman If deconey found that there is "a ramping response at 10k-15k with a notable peak," then perhaps we have identified a really important contributing factor, at least in *my* room. |
That would fit the bill. Also still worth checking impedance/phase curves for an easy load. Fritz should be a leader there and so far seems to be. It’s seldom just one thing. Could be at least three contributing factors to various degrees 1) inherent speaker brightness 2) more difficult load to drive 3) room acoustics/low ceiling. Wires used could also. I think I recall some kind of power conditioning being used so I would assume that is covered for now. hilde, is there a picture or some other more detailed description of the room here somewhere that I missed? Others responses lead me to suspect that. Nobody ever said good sound was easy.....especially with acoustically challenged rooms to start with and sensitive ears. Well, MC kinda insinuated that but he is special. :) |
@mapman mapman, here is a diagram: https://tinyurl.com/y26272p4 In front of my couch is a rug. No coffee table or other reflective surface. Agree, it's not easy. And notice, when I asked him how many speakers he'd had…radio silence. @twoleftears Different tweeters in different Fritz lines — got it. He sent these to me to review, so I didn't really choose these. @lalitk The journey is fun. Except for the part where I'm reboxing! (That's today.) But a $20 return shipping charge for $3500 speakers that weight 80lbs each, boxed? I don't know how anyone can compete with that. Still, Crutchfield has what they have and that limits things. (But not a bad selection, really — Focal, ML, Revel, more.) |
