@hilde45
"...a more detailed description is coming, but they are not harsh or aggressive at all."
Excellent. Reading posts, it seems the new monitor speakers are headed in a better direction for you and your listening space. And, with no expensive room treatments, no DSP or equalization tools, running all of the exact same electronics. Nice. |
@coltrane1
"Ha, why sample ML Motian’s. Hint: They’re not true ML’s. "
Why not? A ML rep called me out of the blue this week, happened to mention Martin Logan sells Motion series all over the world with success. The original founder of Paradigm purchased the Martin Logan company last year, including Motion series. Why?, Sales there too. Gotta sell speakers to make money. I own several Motions, along with other custom speakers I build. Tested Motions with various solid state and tube amplifiers. Decent AMT implementation, sounds nice when paired with some amps. Can be nice for folks with HT/Audio combos. Best for 2ch audio, maybe not, yet holding a position within the Martin Logan Co line now. Personally, I wouldn’t own any of the new ML panel planar magnetic speakers below the new ML ESL-9 model. Very nice. $2k above OP’s budget. "CLX Art", yes! Few of the older MLs under $10k sound right to me, kind of a blurred sound. Did you actually test the Motion Series speakers? Which models, and what amplifiers were used in your evaluation, if any? |
re: ML Motion 40/60 speakers
Yeah, they get kind of a bad rap when paired with mediocre home theater receivers and nests of cabling and switchers at Magnolia stores. A well used demo set at the store sounds different than a new pair not burned in.
I listen to them every night for home theater with a 200w x 5ch home theater setup. Great for movies, better suited and more transparent than my former Totem Acoustic Signatures for HT purpose.
For 2ch stereo listening, tested them with various Class A tube and solid state amps too. 10w, 50w Triode and 100w tube amps. They can sound nice with quality amps and good cabling in the right room, ymmv. |
Sure thing @hilde45. Fwiw, maybe hold off on the resistors for a while, and a little more time on the speakers (drivers, and caps on x-over inside). And, the tube change on the DAC might get you one splitting hair closer to taking a tad bit of the brightness off. You are getting closer now, the rest is fine tuning and some fun listening! |
Doing all of the up front evaluation work also allows one to appreciate the final decision that much more. Looks like the hard work paid off. Congrats! |
@helomech
The original Dr. Von Heil AMTs did mellow out some over time, and it was the crossovers/caps settling too, not just the diaphragms. I worked on the assembly line at ESS early 1980s, where it was all invented. Seen some variations since the patent expired on the AMT. My own ML XT40s did settle some over time for my HT setup. Smoother now for sure. I agree all AMTs are not created equal. My own current custom speakers with great heil amt units sound smoother with larger presentation than all mentioned here so far. Over time, messing around, learned it really comes down to a very high quality crossover and corresponding drivers to get the right tone and staging one might be looking for. One thing for sure, when you get the right AMT speaker setup paired with really good tube amps, with really good tubes, its very enjoyable to listen to. :)
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Rolled off is rolled off. Old trick. Works but you can build $500 kit speakers that do this.
Low ceilings pressure loads high frequency. Really good AMTs are magical in the right room and source/cable combos. AMT size is key too. A larger footprint amt can overwhelm if not rightsized for a given room setting.
Finding the right size and sensitivity speakers for your amps and “that room” will be key.
The incoming 8ohm 87db Salk monitors with the right tubes and caps in the amps may get ya closer to musical without sacrificing high frequency roll off with those beryllium tweeters. Worth final room, tube, and cable tuning from there.
Your persistence will pay off and nobody has your ears or your unique low ceiling situation. Keep up the good work. |
The room is the speaker :) |
For the Salk 6M SS, it's said to be the same Be tweeter used in the Salk 9.5, and the "b" is a 4 ohm, and the "bn" is the 8 ohm version -and- also 1.5db higher sensitivity too. With woofer and tweeters in the 92/93 range and the end result of 87db sensitivity on the graphs, maybe some padding going on there somewhere by design. Will stay tuned. |
Trying to help and chatting with Hilde45, here is what I’ve gathered since his speaker demo startup. May help for anyone assisting to analyze the gaps and opportunities. Hopefully these notes (or assumptions) might save some time for those chiming in late not reading prior posts on the gear, updates - fwiw.
Some fairly well knowns:
+warmish well known QS tube preamp, recently new, but burned in.
+warmish well known QS mono block tube amps, recently new
+warmish matched Brent Jesse vintage 1960s input/driver tubes
+neutral to warmish well known interconnect cables, med quality OFC
+neutral to warmish well known speaker cables, med quality OFC
+neutral to warmish well known MHDT Orchid tube DAC, neutral GE5670 Triple Mica (t/b replaced)
Some variables, and uncertainties:
-AC Power, non dedicated power circuit used, check as tbd.
-Room, very low ceilings, no room treatments yet, hard walls/floors
-Speakers with bright "ish" midrange and tweeters don’t gel well
-Speakers over 90db sensitivity are more in question so far...
-8ohm vs. 4ohm speakers may be a better match for the tube amps
-up to ~150-200hrs on preamp, amps, tubes, caps, in total, so far [est.]
-most demo speakers excluding Fritz demos are relatively new
-tube in DAC, pending replacement with warmer Telsa 6CC42 soon
If you believe some or all of these notes and assumptions listed here, what comes to mind to you first, ..1,2,3? :)
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Hilde45, A quick and dirty test to do and report back. Sounds really stupid and crude, no cost, but it works as another method for process of elimination and targeting some things with a particular speaker to get some ideas. Quick to try. 1. Put grilles on speakers if speakers came with them and note any change - at all? Did any etch, glare, or other disappear at all - report back. Remove grilles - if they were on...now for the crude part :) 2. Cover the tweeter with one layer of thin paper towel, stick on lightly with a small piece of painters blue tape, and report back. Any etch or glare disappear? 3. Next cover the midrange with thin layer of paper towel, barely tape on with painters tape, be sure to not double-up on it, report back. 4. Do 2,3 together, both tweet and mid, report back. Does it become fuller and more musical with 2,3 together? Just a simple test to get ideas with an overly bright tweeter/mid layout before trying any mods internally, or padding down either. I agree with prior assessments of exaggerated tweets/mids on some speakers, and the room can make it better or worse. You can add/remove the pt back and forth as you are sitting there listening. Extrapolate from here, Oh, note this and for AMTs, here is what Legacy does - trim buttons +/- 2db look here, old method from early days of AMTs because rooms and gear varies greatly. link: https://legacyaudio.com/images/made/images/uploads/products/Fronts-Mains/new_binding_posts_434_609.j... |
@auxinput sorry, but I disagree here in burn in. I have burned in so many different cables, capacitors, power cords, equipment, speakers. They all require burn in. Some more than others. I know that tweeters could have a slight bright edge when they are new and will smooth out after a burn in process. I have had some connectors and cables that sound absolutely nasty in the middle of the burn in process, but you need to be patient and wait. Sometimes my equipment is absolutely unlistenable in certain points of burn-in and I just have to stop and wait another few days.
+1 I’ve found about 50% of the people don’t believe it and don’t want to, or simply cannot hear a difference in their particular system and choice of source components and speakers in particular. And those with extra amounts of $ and impatience dump the gear prematurely. One can pick up some decent 2nd or even 3rd hand deals this way with components barely used a few months or less. A typical replayed pattern with Pass Lab amps, people panic’ing after spending big $. I have a new phrase for that " be a 2nd owner of a 90 day old Pass Labs amp, save time and money, haha!" Literally drove myself close to crazy again burning in some of the upper end SG Mundorf EVO caps (3rd set of amps) and brand new AP Crystal Solo OCC cables lately, thought I/we would never get there along with a few buddies doing the same in parallel. As a baseline check we’d swap back to former cables periodically to stop second guessing, then comparing back to other used sets of the same model. OCC copper is a rollercoaster too. Some days exactly as you described it, had to step away for a few days. Spot on. Patience can pay off in some cases with some gear known to have long burn-in cycles to finally settle in. :) |
@audioconnection I feel your pain because many of my customers complain about the same thing....
Hi John, ProAcs like tube amps, noting you also sell ProAc too, and Quicksilver amps. Perhaps something like a Proac D20 type smallish 2-way 8ohm floorstanders, w/soft dome. Perhaps another match with Hilde45’s QS Mono 60 KT88 amps, what say you - your thoughts? |
@b_limo ..The rest of your system is either neutral or warm, as stated by another member earlier. This may all be solved once you get your Salks. They should be the ticket!
Kinda what I was thinking now too, particularly after recapping what’s been too much or not enough with all prior speakers. Next, the smaller 2-way Salk monitor with fewer drivers, "Be" neutral transparency, maybe less forward with slightly less efficiency at 87db sensitivity, in a meaty slot ported cabinet, and 8ohms will compliment the QS amps well. Hopefully hitting closer to happy middle ground for you Hilde45! |
Agree with other posters about relocating the audio system and speakers to the bed location area, lengthwise. Even for a short term period, with hefty AC romex extension cables - if required. Should help gain further insight to that room and what else may be possible. Or go rent a small hotel conference room and re-test there! :)
Reconfigure, re-test, report changes. |
@b_limo The issue you have with those bright sounding speakers is that they are bright sounding speakers! Seems so. Following some test results data, found a ramping response at 10k-15k with a notable peak. On to the Salks and others I gather. |
"Try before you buy" sure is a nice option to have.
And "One and Done" is no fun. :) |
@jhills Of the speakers mentioned, I think you will be be very happy with the Salks. Also, as mentioned, the Harbeths, or my pick of all would probably be the Spacials jhills, Comparing the three, did you find the Harbeth to be a bit more midrange forward (generally) compared to Salks and Spacials you heard? A friend who purchased my former tube amp has tried several different amps with his Harbeth 40.1 speakers. While I enjoyed them, they were more midrange present in a smaller room (with 3 different type amps), like having headphones on at times. It was nice for 30 minutes, and after an hour the midrange fullness became a little fatiguing for my ears. And, now easier to listen to after moving them to much larger room with higher and more open vaulted ceilings. Lets say if the Salks are generally voiced more neutral with Be tweeters, where do you place the Spatials in the spectrum of neutral to bright sounding on your rig(s)? |
To Fritz Fans, Most agree Scanspeak and Satori drivers are good, ...I’ve used more than a few in DIY builds myself. Also owned older Totems and Signature Model One too for many years as a baseline reference speaker. Totem Acoustic has evolved beyond the few models listed so far, comparatively. Which ones? - KIN Monitor
- Skylight
- Sky
- Signature One
- Element Fire V2
If yes, can you share likes or dislikes and which Totem model, Thanks. |
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Hello @brownsfan, with REW, were you able to effectively use a simple USB microphone to your personal computer or laptop, or did you end up also buying a dedicated hardware audio interface too for improved results? Also, did you end up with a simple mic such as the Dayton or something more, for more accurate readings? Good helpful rec btw.
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Looking up the woofer used in the Wow1 Seas W12, the specs are consistent with the frequency response test and findings on this ASR site. Definitely makes a good argument for a better woofer driver.
@Hilde45,
If any of these graphs and tests are close to accurate, it’s probably a good thing you moved up to the Salk 6M SS. The published driver tests on the Satori 6.5 woofer used in your next speaker definitely looks better between 100hz and 2k so it really depends on that x-over. You’ll have to test and see.
A few colleagues in a different group who run 82db sensitivity ProAc Response speakers with 6-8w low watt triode amps, with nice transformers, specs don’t look great and yet its very musical and plenty loud for most folks. In your smallish room, might be okay. Its all in the transformers, good luck on the next chapter of demos :)
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Let us know when you are done sweeping up the room. :) |
@jhills ...remind me a bit of the smaller 1.7 Maggies (that I am using now) with a bit more base energy but with the same deep, broad stage.
Good to know. The Maggie 1.7.., the other one I recall a few members here on Agon with QS mono tube amps were running like @hilde45 has. Never heard them in a smaller room. Once tried 3.6 Maggies on demo in a wide/short space. They were way too big for that room, did not work well that way.. 1.7 would be fun to try with the QS Mono 60s or 120s. Do you run your 1.7s with SS or tube amp(s)? |
@jtcf
Heard my buddies Harbeth 40.1s with my former EL34 tube amp, sounded pretty darn nice, weighty transformers drove them fine in 50w strapped triode mode. Curious to know if you are running the 2-way or 3-way Harbeth’s, and if you have other output tubes for the Mid Monos to try, KT77, KT88s, other.
If you report out on the test results for your combo or make posts in a separate QS thread elsewhere, will be on the lookout for it. Thx.
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@jtcf
I learned I could bias KT150s between 40 to 55ma to produce a different type of sound stage fore/aft on my own QS mono 120 amps. Variation in tone from softer to brighter presents itself notably. If one did not know any better you would think you were listening to slightly different speakers with lower bias settings on output tubes.
+ @hilde45
Might be worth noting and trying different bias levels as both of you guys are demoing different speakers and cables with the QS mono tube amps. |
@hilde45, @jtcf
Well, yes it does on the KT150s with a spread of 15ma, and not as noticeable a change with only at 5ma spread. You’d need a multi-meter to use with pin jacks for manual setting. I see pin jacks on the Mid Monos, not on the Mono 60s. For Mono 60s you could set LED to go out and compare that to when it’s super bright. Best to check with Mike Sanders on that.
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@helomec
The ML Motion 60XTs had a very pleasant and balanced treble in my audition. Very surprised by your trouble with them. ... @helomec, did you audition the older "XT" or latest "XTi" version? Updates for the XTI version mention no tweeter or crossover changes, but I’m suspect. The woofer surrounds in the new XTi version are noted as upgraded and "stiffer". I’ve heard the older 60XT many times, and own the smaller ML40XT for another setup, and they are not overly bright, fairly neutral in fact. As noted before, found a spike on the response graph between 10k-15khz. Still kinda wondering if there was a change in material used in the AMT diaphragm or crossover with the new XTI version...no proof, just curious. |
ex·pe·ri·ence "direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge". There are members on this forum with strong opinions back to early 2000s and now at " ten amps ago" or " twenty speakers ago". Some could afford to buy and resell, others simply demo’d with good merchants. Never feel bad about demo’ing. If it’s right for someone, they will buy it. Each of us have different hearing and preferences. To each his own. |
