Speaker positioning: why do audiophiles neglect this so much?
Went to a recent seminar featuring Jim Smith, well known author of the book "Get Better Sound" and hi fi set up guru.
The basic gist of the discussion was that the most important elements of a high end stereo installation are listening position and speaker positioning, in that order. The actual hardware (speakers, amplifiers, source, cables etc) are of less importance relatively speaking.
Yet it is clear from this web site and it's contents, that set up is discussed much less than the actual hardware.
When I look at the Virtual Systems page on site, I'm estimating that, maybe, 10% of the systems posted are close to well set up. Thus, hardly any of the featured hardware is performing close to it's maximum potential.
Shame, and why is it so? Not sexy enough to talk about system set up in depth? Lack of knowledge? Or is it simply too hard to do and too complex a subject?
Just my 2 cents ...
@mahgister said:
My wife puts up with acoustic panels on walls and I have autonomy in speaker and listening position - but don't think I'd get away with the experimental room tuning you've got going on:
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The photos in my virtual pages dated back in the months before my systematic listening experiments in acoustic few years ago... My actual dedicated room is my music room and laboratory... Not a living room...And way more "silly" than in these past images... Nothing is esthetical because all is homemade with low cost materials... Then some may mock me, but i laugh last... My wife would have divorced if i had put anything in our living room...But think about that, if my wife had accepted my system presence in the living room i would have never experimented and discovered acoustic powerful impact...Most audiophile think that it is only an icing on the cake...Sorry but it is the reverse, most upgrades are only icing on a bad or on a good cake , acoustic experience and science is the cake itself.... It was fun to experiment, fun to learn how to listen and tune the speakers/room and at peanuts costs...i am proud to not be a gullible passive consumer of audio only but also a creative learning student of audio and acoustic in particular.... Some of my experiment could inspire some more crafty people than me and can be tried in a living room...And my experience can spare useless upgrading to some and oriented them toward low cost acoustical experiments...This is the only reason for my posts....If it is not useful to some then i am nut for sure.... But the fact is and will not change because you would want it so : acoustic matter more than a piece of brand name gear at the end... And a dedicated room is the only luxury in audio not the price tag of the gear....The fact that these two claims are inconvenient truths to spell in an audio thread dont matter... 😁😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😁😎 My deepest respect to you....
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@mahgister said:
I tend to agree with this in principle, though I acknowledge there are gains to be had with well designed premium equipment. I'd rather have low cost equipment properly setup in an acoustically sorted room than the most expensive gear thoughtlessly setup in problematic and untreated room. I've read descriptions of gear I'm familiar with that are quite laughable because people are describing the problems of the setup or listening environment. |
Thanks it feel better to be understood than being alone with common place fact and acoustic science... Pointing to this truth dont negate the scaling differences between gear design... i only claim that we must learn acoustic BEFORE throwing money on not so useful upgrade... In my experience acoustic treatment and mechanical acoustic control exceed most upgrade of any piece of gear by a great margin most of the times and may cost nothing in a dedicated room......
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@mahgister said:
Well, don't get too excited. I'm on board with traditional absorption/diffusion treatments, bass traps etc. Not even sure what I'm looking at with your room treatment experiments - but who knows, you may be onto something :-) What I agree with is the principle that the thoughtful application room treatment can have a profound positive effect on sound quality - and is potentially far more cost effective than endless merry-go-round equipment changes. Of course 'room treatment' doesn't have to mean commercial products, decor and furnishing changes will have an effect - not to mention DIY treatments. However the nice thing about commercial products is that that properly engineered ones are pretty predictable and consistent in effect and this can be helpful in achieving good results - experimenting, adding/subtracting etc. |
Is there anyplace online where basic guides mentioned throughout this thread on speaker placement, room acoustics, and related subjects are delineated? I read up on this when I first got my new system and meant to get a book or two, but never got around to it. If there was a good guide online somewhere to be followed, or maybe even a Youtube video, it would be interesting to revisit this subject. Especially something with information on how to optimize performance within the limits of a furnished, existing listening space. It would also be interesting to figure out how much more performance could be wrung out of your current set-up or how far from optimal it’s currently operating at. When purchasing my system I wondered about how much getting a pre or integrated amp with room acoustic software like the Lyngdorf would compensate for room deficiencies and improve the listening experience. Good thread. Mike |
There are lot of crystals, beads, pyramids, copper foil wrapped gizmos, and bottle resonators in that room. Even beads against cables and copper discs on power connectors. It conveys a sense of the arcane. I do not think I would run the scheme by the Haus boss. |
The speaker-room interface is the most important aspect in getting good sound from one's audio system. It is really the first thing that needs to be attended to when setting up an audio system. Here are some links to the best places to start on this: 1. The Wilson Audio Setup Procedure (W.A.S.P.) - YouTube This video from the late David A. Wilson gives some good background information in the first 5 minutes of the 20 minute video. The actual procedure is not something one can do on one's own, so forget that. 2. Sumiko master set-up process - AudioAficionado.org The Sumiko/Master Set procedure is an outgrowth from the research by Sterling Trayle when he owned Sumiko Importers in Berkley California. This is pretty DIY friendly that anyone can do by following the steps in Post #2 in the thread. The most difficult part may be obtaining the setup disc/files. But the setup song does work really well for doing this. Better than anything else. 3. Master Set & Rational Speaker Placement How To For GREAT SOUNDSTAGE - YouTube This is a really long video of one person's experience in setting up his speakers. It is quite helpful. 4. And then there is full on DSP, such as DEQX. |
The optimal placement, aka "points of the living sound" where it all jumps to another level, requires a dedicated room in most cases. There you can place it to a millimetre exactly where it should be, and often it's about 1/3 from the back wall and well away from the side walls. It is simply unrealistic in a family living room with its' furniture, TV sets, kids and your better half. |
The optimal placement question is the most complex to evaluate because there is 2 method to do so... One with the help of a microphone and an electronical equalizer... Another way is instead of using a precise tested frequency response, to use instead a large bandwidth response like a singer voice timbre for example and replace a microphone by your ears and replace the electronical equalizer by an Helmholtz mechanical equalizer made of many bottles or tubes which will act like resonators and diffusers at different locations in the room .... The two methods are complementary, the E.Q. adress the speaker response to the unmodified room with a microphone an a single tested frequency , the other the M.E. adress the modified room response to the speakers with your timbre perceiving tuning ears... The E.Q. equalization will ask for a MILLIMETER exact location for golden spot... The M.E. tuning process will give a larger spot for location in inches for golden spot... it is better to use the two methods... But it take a dedicated room... |
I will add that yes speakers positioning is the most important factor to adress first BUT this matter is not so much the straigth forward RECIPE many people think it must be... It is relative to many factors: speakers type yes, but also the acoustical state of the room and the PRECISE relation between a chosen type and the way the room must be organiszed to answer for the speakers needs... In my room 13 feet square with 8 feet 6 inches high... I enjoy TWO sweet spot : one at 3 feet and another one at 8 feet from the speakers... One spot is slightly more clear and detailed like headphone and rival any headphone ...The other sound more natural with a more encompassing bass...The two positions give me an englobing soundscape encompassing the listener with, relatively to the recording, even a sound almost coming from behind my head sometimes...The two positions give me an intimacy like with an headphone but out of my head with an astounding depth imaging in near listening and with a sound filling the room and around me in 8 feet listening position, according to the acoustical cues of the playing recording for sure...
Impossible to prefer one position to the other.... I listen half time in each one... 😁😊 Then there may be many sweet spots, at least two , not only one in a controlled room... And in small room any change in the room is audible even at three feet from the speakers... Then those who claim near listening eliminate the need for room treatment and room control are completely wrong... But to know it, someone must EXPERIMENT it and dispose his room to experience it to begin with... There is many myth in popular audio acoustic threads...One is near listening eliminate the need for room treatment and control... Another myth is about speaker position, any bad position CAN BE to some extent compensated by acoustic mechanical control over the pressure zones of the room by modifying them ...For example one of my speaker is pressed into a corner of the wall , the other speaker is not...Is it not bad enough? It is... it take me one year of acoustic control experiments to compensate acoustically to a great degree for this bad positioning...my soundscape is almost the same now coming from the two speakers without imbalance... Then reading that a speaker in a corner is bad means something in a non controlled room and dont work the same in a controlled room...And for sure it is relative to the speakers type, mine is a box two way speakers with a port hole in the front... Acoustic is not a list of ready made recipes to blindly apply but a list of priciples to experiment with...
I am not an acoustician at all only a "nut" experimenting with a dedicated room for 2 years non stop....I only know a few things but i learned them in listening experiments ... |
Ah, now getting somewhere. Yes, if you want optimum speaker positioning it is going to be in a room where music is primary and you sit and listen to the music. For background listening, nothing is very important. The methods of using microphone and instruments sound intriguing, as I suspected all along that this could be done somehow. Perhaps some more writing to detail the procedure/process could be helpful. FWIW, my room is 13 x 14 x 10. The room is a bit irregular with a bay window on one side and a fireplace in the middle of the back wall sticking out in to the room. I sit to the right of the fireplace, pretty much in line with the right speaker. My perspective is like I am sitting in symphony hall in a seat on the right side aisle. I set my speakers as described in my post following the instructions exactly. The area of sweet listening is pretty large, even in this small room. |
I spent a good amount of time positioning the speakers in my dedicated room. I ran strips of masking tape on the floor at 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 room width. Then perpendicular strips every six inches from the front wall. I tried 19 different positions, making note of the impact on sound at each position. Once I found a spot that sounded best, I adjusted toe to taste. I then dialed the position in with a laser measure. I now have the speakers positioned equally within an 1/8" in all directions. Oh, and the listening chair is precisely placed as well. Small adjustments can result in a big difference. |
Sonic79, Well 19 positions and 19 different sounds. How did you decide what you liked best? Did you have some kind of reference sound for this. And the precisely placed listening chair????? I assume it is on some kind of centered axis between the speakers and you sit precisely on that axis as best you can. You are working on a perfect symmetry model, and it has to be perfect with left-right symmetry to be close, both in dimension and room furnishing. This is usually hard to achieve, though not impossible. The Dave Wilson video mentions very early that it does not take much to throw off methods using ratios, as you are doing.
Secret Guy, It is not all that complicated, but it is necessary for the best sound. As I mentioned, for background listening or just sound in the room, nothing matters. |
I'm another of the stuff between the speakers culprits. I have a dedicated listening room but it's small. One wall has a door in it two walls are pretty much entirely covered with record and CD storage. So there is nowhere else for the hi fi to go except between the speakers. The wall between the speakers has the window in it, so the record/cd storage can't be moved to there. I also have big speakers in this small room - and they do work well following careful attention to setup and room acoustics. (I do have some pictures on the wall with the door and could probably make a small improvement by eliminating them and putting in some treatment. But I enjoy looking at the pictures. Would I do it differently in a lager room - naturally. But I'm not going to move house for the sake of the hi fi - or eliminate my music collection to make space in the room to move the hi fi from between the speakers. |
If you are not able to hear with this album the soundscape OUT of the speakers, especially completely outside of them SIMULTANEOUSLY by the left and by the right, with this recording, you have a problem with the relation between your speakers and your room size and geometry or a treatment problem or a mechanical control problem or the three problem at the same time... Dont try with an electronical equalizer it will not work ALONE to solve this problem like wrongly claim some here...An E.Q. is a useful tool yes but not the solution by itself alone here... For example in some piece of the album there is three harpsichords, two outside of the speakers completely by left and right and the third in the perfect center...The voices comes in front or sometimes at left or right in the thirty pieces of the album...... Acoustic and psycho-acoustic are sciences with principles with which we can experience and devise experiments and from which we even may create acoustic devices and tools... I know it because i did it... The timbre perception , imaging, listener envelopment , dynamic, soundstage are not MAGICAL events created by the gear pieces by themselves alone by the power induced by the BRAND name, 😁but MOSTLY acoustic phenomena which are TRANSLATIONS of the original recorded acoustical cues in your own room, which acoustic information the gear ONLY convey but do not FULLY produce it by itself and did not optimize it by itself either, we need to determine by acoustic treatment and acoustic mechanical control the specific Ears/ Room relation to the speakers/gear for that... If the sound image and soundstage are confined here BETWEEN the speakers plane your relation speakers/ room is far from being optimal...Sorry... And the culprit is probably not some brand name piece of gear itself, or the system itself which is not probably the problem , save if your gear is of a bad design for sure, but usually the problem will be the relation between the system and the room lack of or unbalanced treatment and lack of acoustic control ... The speakers type must be chosen for the room size and geometry but the location of the speakers and their precise postioning will not be enough either in most cases...You will need at least room treatment and probably some degree of room mechanical control with Helmholtz devices to gain an OPTIMAL result... By the way this is part two of a very beautiful original Columbia album titled "Moondog" which i purchased when i was 24 years old and i am almost 71....
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Starting with the speakers in a sub-optimal position, it's easy to discern improvements in the sound. As the speakers approach a more optimal position, the sound improves. It was absolutely something I could hear. Detailed note taking supported the optimum position, as three different times I preferred that location. The 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 room width markers were simply guides, just like the perpendicular strips placed every 6 inches. The final speaker position did not fall exactly on those markers. And no reference sound was targeted. I am trying to get my system to sound the best it can in the room it is in–my ears being the barometer. 19 different positions is what it took to get one step closer to that goal. My room is symmetrical, thus why I used a laser measure to precisely place the speakers, and yes, the listening chair too. |
I found that with detail to set up and positioning (using measurements and tape tape to mark changes) and by positioning with the tweeter section of my Maggies to the outside rather than inside, I was able to get very good and detailed imaging and a stable wide and deep stag - wether setting or standing, in or out of the favored listening position. If I change either or both speakers, even by 1/2", the imaging and stage, especially off axis, will somewhat diminish. I agree with wolf_garcia, regarding your listening space being part of your home. I have no desire to turn my audio room into an anechoic chamber - it is a comfortable and integral part of my home, furniture and all. Since my floors are carpeted and ceilings soft fiber tile, about the only thing I needed to do was to cover the wall behind speakers with acoustic drapes and use one corner bass trap and it all looks, works and sounds great to me .....Jim |
Speaker placement is tricky. Of course having nothing between the speakers would be preferred but long cable runs or equipment placement may prevent that from happening. I tried multiple placement configurations based on several "mathematical" models. There are too many variables with furnishings to make it truly work but can be used as a general guide. I found the most effective placement technique was to use the Wilson audio set up guide with the room furnished as you plan to use it. I also found it effective to use the Jim Smith guide relative to the speakers and listening chair. The distance between the speakers are 83 to 86% of the distance from the speakers to the listening chair. Just my two cents worth. |
I like a good tweak like the next guy. But those photos make me think someone is teetering on the line of mental illness.
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Mental illness i dont know.... i will repeat here that what i speak about was recommendations which are the results of my experiments in my dedicated audio room : a laboratory...These photos dont give an idea they are old...The actual room contain a grid of 100 Helmholtz tubes resonators AND diffusers with a double screen in wood with many acoustic devices on it for example... And i dont describe it all here... Then yes i look like "madness" way more than what you think... 😁😊😎 My dedicated room is an acoustical laboratory...Not a living room..Then spare me insult...
But who is mad or perhaps "deluded"? A man with a 500 bucks system whose sound quality rival system costing 100 times more created by his own low cost homemade devices ?
Or a conditioned consumer who buy and plug many costly brand name gear in the wall and called it hi-fi ? Your own virtual system in an empty room is a "buy and plug" one then...I prefer my " madness" and acoustic research to your laziness sorry ...
By the way if you want to insult me speak it clearly with my NAME spelled, not indirectly and with hypocrisy with an old photo from my virtual system page... i prefer discussion to be frank....When people cannot argue about acoustic they chose insults, the first to act like that was the bullying boss of an audio company who sell costly devices here who never answered my inconvenients arguments and resorted to sarcasm about my old room ... Is it clear?
By the way describing an acoustic distortion to mock my system and attributing it to my system/room is not a fair description... i listen to a quartet like you did, but the sound is not between the speakers plane at all but in front of the speakers in the case of Auryn Quartet playing Haydn for example .... The soundscape is relative to the recordings the sound is around the room,outside speakers in many cases, but ALWAYS reach to my ears like in an headphone and better than in an headphone filling the space between the speakers and my listening position with an intimacy like in headphone because the soundscape INCLUDE ME... In psycho-acoustic science it is described by the LISTENER ENVELOPEMENT factor or LEV. / SOURCE WIDTH factor or ASW. it is a RATIO to be acoustically controlled...I bet you have no idea of what i spoke about nor the way to control it at all... Then sarcasm is your way to chase away your ignorance and scapegoating my room at distance to do so .... It is not the first time ... Then spare me post that describe your own fantasy projected onto an other room you never listen to .... I read acoustic book not audio magazine fantasy reviews publicity ...
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I guess there are folks who are audiophiles and have the luxury of having a great space for their systems and a wife or significant other or maybe they are solo so there is no "wife factor" involved. They are the lucky ones concerning setting the listening and speaker positions up well along with all the sound treatments their rooms need. I believe this is a small group of people. Then I believe the majority of the rest fall into the category of trying to scratch out a space for their systems, too many duel purpose spaces or given a tiny space off in a corner or repurposing a bedroom but the furniture must stay, going into an attic space with all sorts of weird ceiling configurations or a basement with great dimensions for width and length but that column sure is in the wrong spot and a 6’-8" ceiling is kinda low isn’t it? The bottom line, I believe most audiophiles realize how important the room is and the acoustics of the room along with the positioning and only wish they could hit all the tics correctly but have to be satisfied with the areas they have control over, which might not be many. They do have nice speakers and great equipment that they spent way too much on with lots of tweaks and expensive cables and conditioners but just can’t get it to sound great. No where near what they heard in that fancy showroom. Oh well, we live with what we have. |
Wise post! But most people spend money on costly tweaks and costly upgrades BECAUSE they dont understand basic acoustic power... The wife factor and a living room for most people cannot distract us to spelling the truth here in audio forums because it is an INCONVENIENT truth for most... Acoustic treatment and mechanical control is the key not the price tag.... Even with a wife and in a living room we need the truth not the market conditioning of our consumer habits....
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Good to have this discussion and all the responses. A few responders have mentioned that they do not have dedicated rooms, with a bit of lament. A dedicated room is not necessary, but dedicated music listening is. In other words you need to just listen to the music and not do anything else. As I have mentioned a couple times, for background listening, nothing really matters in the speaker positioning. If you are set up in a multipurpose room, it's best to not move the furnishings around. Everything in the room affects the sound. And if you move things around you need to adjust the a speaker setting to get back to the optimum sound. The Sumiko/Master Set method that I referenced in my first post is said to work with any speaker in any room. And thus it can be tried in a multipurpose room, some times quite successfully As to "Optimum Sound", there is likely a few definitions of that and with a lot of divergence. I will only say that optimum sound is the perfect summation of the two speakers to be as if they were one speaker. A good way to check for that is to listen to a mono recording, and mono recording will do. By definition there is equal music in each channel and each speaker. The two speakers will automatically sum together to give sound perfectly between the speakers, no matter where you sit in the room. If you do this with your speaker set and go to one side and the sound also goes to that side then you are getting more sound from the speaker on that side. That should not be and you do not have the speakers set for optimum sound. This is a good check because the mono recording can be a reference as to what you are trying to do with the speakers. |
Very well said @sharri 👏👏👏👏👏 |
I will add that not only a dedicated room is not necessary but music itself is not necessary, silence in any position is the only necessary fulfillment... But being in an audio thread i will repeat that a dedicated room acoustic is the only luxury...not the price tag of gear at all... Saying that we can enjoy music anywhere from any system even in an escalator is common place fact from which NOBODY can argue against... 😁😊
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@sharri - thanks for the de-escalation :-) |
It seems rix know me better than myself ! For sure like true friend knows us... You make me smile thanks....
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LoL @ebm . Im only limited by my rooms and wallet. I don’t give a s… about anything else. Great sound is my number 1 priority. Form follows function but it can be beautiful too. |
The system components give you potential, realising it is another matter. At least that’s been my experience. I’ve tried Sumiko Masterset for speaker placement but always get lost after the first speaker is set, nevertheless I did achieve its goal of a walk around stereo image the first time I used it so keep trying it when I have suitable speakers. My current speakers are not suitable, they’re designed to go as close to the wall behind them as possible, which needs to be a solid one, 5.5cm seems to balance the bass about right and with the aid of some if Herbie's Gliders I can adjust them to the mm. Lateral placement seems to have a big impact on the sense if scale. Current setup sees two adjacent chairs, as I don’t listen alone a lot of the time, a couple of m from the wall behind them. Speakers are against the front wall, there’s 1.2 and 1.5m to the side walls and a wall mounted TV between them. The system’s off to the side, and yes one of the racks is in a corner but this is mostly power supplies, the sensitive stuff is on the adjacent rack. The stereo image goes back into the wall, enough to give a pretty good impression of a symphony orchestra in there with the right recording but more importantly the music can swing and has a life to it that draws me in, It’s sounding the best it ever has. And now I’m about to blow it by moving, and the house I’m moving to has dry lined walls throughout. I think I’ll need to change speakers but at least the living room, though asymmetrical, is a decent size so both speakers and listening chairs can be at least a metre from the nearest wall. I’ve a feeling this will take some sorting out. |
Perfect speaker and listening position may not be inexpensive in the long run… it could end up costing half of everything you own plus alimony ;). Nearly all systems require some compromises to be made (budget, room size, placement limitations, home electrical system, etc etc etc)…we make those that we have to and do the best we can to work around them.
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Speakers produce sound wave by using electromagnetic field. Amplifier is used for increasing the intensity of sound. Sound signal travels form amplifier to speaker through wire an analog signal. Any resistance can damage sound quality. It is think that, sound wave make collision and sound wave quality is damaged. More explanation is in Headphonicity. You can read there for abidance for this. |
I don’t think it’s so much “neglected” as it is “reasonably located” within what is, normally, a room used and shared by other members of a household. Not many are lucky enough to have a dedicated listening room. Now take that small group lucky enough to have a listening room - the majority of them will be utilizing a smaller room or a weirdly shaped room that’s difficult to make into a nice listening environment. Not many have the wherewithal to have the spacious listening rooms with the proper acoustic treatment that most on this forum fantasize about. But folks are still proud of what they’ve accomplished (to their ears) in what they’ve got to work with and share via photos. And to them, it probably sounds really great!
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