I'm hoping some of you with experience can help me evaluate my system. It is, of course, hard to put words on sonic character but sometimes it just isn't there. My system is quite detailed and can have a very nice soundstage but rarely does it grab me.
The system:Magnum Dynalab MD209 hybrid tube/SS amp, Manley Chinook tube phono preamp, Oracle Alexandria factory refurbished, Oracle Prelude tonearm Ortophon MC 20 super cart Joseph Audio RM22si speakers Audioquest Caldera speaker wire.
As I have been upgrading the system, I'm left thinking that either speakers or room treatment need attention next. My room is approximately 12x25with hardwood floor, hard surfaces including art and wooden furniture, two big sofas, and several doorways and windows. My wife won't take kindly to funky acoustic treatments.Of course the speakers and cartridge are just plain old. I find auditioning speakers daunting and worry that the showroom experience will not be representative of my home and my electronics. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Kevin
Room treatment is always important. Contact GIK acoustics. They have a variety of pretty panels including Art Panels you can have custom printed.
One thing to check, sit about 2' in front of your speakers. I know it's not how you listen, just try it. At that distance, are you hearing what you want? If yes, it's the room and speaker placement. If not, the problem is between speakers and source.
lobsterotter - Clueless as to what is missing for you. A couple of recent experiences might be relevant, however. Played around with added damping to subwoofers. Initially it seemed a few pounds (4-5#) on top of the cabinets tightened things up. Tried more weight. Put a 20# paver on top each cabinet. Found this seemed to kill the liveliness of the music. Went back to no added weight at all. Overdamping just sucked the life out of things even though the subs were crossing over at 100 Hz max.
Tried a new digital Coax between streamer and DAC. This used an all silver core wire. It gave a cleaner, smoother top end - especially at volume BUT, once again, seemed like the music was now missing life. Didn't enjoy listening as much. Restored the old coax. and the life came back.
High end extension seems key to liveliness. I also found addition of subs and improving the bass added greatly to musical enjoyment. Probably nothing too profound here. Just wondering if your answer might lie at the frequency extremes.
Thanks to all. Listening to Billy Holiday Body and Soul right up close. It's really detailed and nice but not spine tingling. The sound seem overwhelmed with full orchestration. Best with simpler instrumentation. Maybe separation of the various voices is lacking. It can get a bit muddy or even screechy to me, subtle. I agree withe frequency extension comment. I added a sub and do enjoy it more. I'm not sure lower midrange is fully pronounced. Finally my own high frequency loss could be an issue. Kevin
Make sure when you listen your speakers are away from walls as much as you can. :)
What you described is typical of a room that is far too lively. By pulling the speakers away from the walls and you moving towards them you change the ratio of direct/reflected energy allowing you to hear the system more than the room.
If you have a pair of headphones, also good to use them to see if you hear the same muddiness.
IF you are using subs in particular, be leary of floor interactions as a primary culprit for muddy or obscured sound. Could occur with mains as well. Bass may seem muddy or fat and obscure details higher up in midrange. Suspended plywood floors are most common and susceptible. Auralex subdude platforms or similar isolating platforms are very effective addressing that when needed.
In this case what you seek may in fact be there but is obscured by your floors acoustically acting as a part of your speakers and/or subs.
Hey lobster - Looked up your Josephs. They resemble somewhat (2 way, lower sensitivity, driver dimensions, similar size cabinet) the Totem Forests I am running. All the speaker placement and room treatment advice you got is worth pursuing if you are able. I wonder if your wife would accept GIK 244 Bass Traps placed behind the speakers temporarily during listening sessions...prop 'em against wall right on the floor. Maybe reflections in an active room are "gumming things up" sonically? i.e., depriving you of clarity in upper octaves???
Placement was critical to getting good sound from the Forests. Consider some plinths for the Josephs. I have the Forests elevated almost 6" off the carpeted floor (large area rug over engineered hard wood). Still have huge bass with nice extension on treble. Toe-in and distance apart are other variables to experiment with.
How long have you had the Josephs? Did the system always seem kind of "boring" to you (apologies if I'm misrepresenting your complaint about it!) What ICs are you running?
I suggest you go to a live music concert of the type of music you enjoy and would listen to at home. When you know what you're missing you can then find the link you need.
Several have already commented. A very large and very thick area rug should be put on the front floor between your listening position and the speakers. As Eric has said, you can get art print acoustic panels from GIK. You can look at different types of luxury or printed fabric that would look nice wrapped over acoustic panel material. Too much echo or reflections can muddy or smear the sound. All this can take away emotional connection with the music. You have very nice equipment. What power cable materials are you using? I have experienced where brass components in the power source (i.e. power cord plugs, outlets) can cause the sound to be sterile.
Specifically to Ghosthouse. I've had the speakers for about 18 years. Last year wIth my son's new interest in vinyl (age 20-a late bloomer), I decided to upgrade electronics, get my turntable spinning, and pay attention. After spending more than 6k I was hoping for more presence and wow.
Certainly, I have a lively room and I wouldn't call the sound boring. Rather it is lacking in full cohesion. The amp is very dynamic and seems to have vats of reserve power. I've never heard a bit of amp fatigue. A plug for Magnum Dynalab, the tuner is also incredible. ICs are Audioquest Diamondback for the phono.
Typically the speakers live 18 inches out. Just now, 40 inches from the wall has made a huge difference but still with full orchestra ( Beethoven 3rd) it blares a bit. Seems like my room may be talking to me....as Erik suggests I seem to be getting more direct and less reflected sound with the speakers out.
As for the sub, it is certainly a muddy mess. Paradigm. Brought up from the basement low end "theater" system. I keep it turned down. Fortunately my floors are solid old oak but that doesn't mean they aren't resonating.
I will look into acoustic panels that can appear when the boys and the bourbon come out.
+1 Mapman I would also recheck your turntable setup if possible, I would lower your crossover point at the subwoofer, bass may be coming into the midrange a very common problem. Best of Luck and enjoy the Holidays
+1 needfreestuff on the turntable setup. Check your arm and VTA, if it is too high in the back you will get a brighter sound, too low and you get the opposite. Make sure it is level while on a record. Can make a big difference.
I have heard the GIK panels and I think they do a pretty good job. The fabric on the panels can be printed with whatever you want so they are relatively easy to work into the décor. But, even such modest treatment may not be necessary. I've heard terrific sounding rooms that were treated with nothing more than decorative tapestries on the wall. It really does not take much to improve the room. A rug between the position of the speaker and your listening chair would help a lot; hardwood floors act as a giant sound reflector; the ceiling also acts in the same way which means that a lot of sound is bouncing back and forth between those two surfaces.
The most important thing is to find the right placement of your speakers and your listening position. This can take quite a bit of trial and error. Even a movement of a couple of inches can make a big difference.
I get a lot of that "something missing" impression with a lot of equipment these days--the sound is cold, bloodless and lifeless (makes one push the volume up high to compensate). I would suggest going to different dealers or regional audio shows to at least get a general impression of the type of sound you want to pursue. That would include listening to brands whose sound is outside of mainstream sound, such as Audio Note and Devore (richer, meatier sound), or different way of reproducing sound (planars, like Magnepan).
I'm surprised tubes haven't been mentioned. Amperex 7308's (warm) vs. Siemens E88CC (cool) for instance. The Audioquest Diamondback is no doubt limiting extension, focus and definition as budget cables do IME. The table and cart combo get praise in this retro review from 2016 http://www.tonepublications.com/old-school/oracle-alexandria-turntable/. Described as lively and quick - the Alexandria's not going to have a lush presentation. The MC20 review reveals that it is also described as accurate and tight. http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/ortofon-mc-20-cartridge/ Ditto for not lush. Add to that the bright room and boomy floor. Things could get ugly.
Reflective wood floors are another issue to be addressed by rugs, carpet, etc.. The one I am talking about is more about how rigid the floor is ie how it is constructed, not just how finished. Most upper level floors in homes are built to have some give ( not fully rigid. In those cases isolating bass vibrations from floor is a major difference usually for the better in terms of bass articulation and overall detail. Muddy bass is unnatural and obscures detail in the midrange messing up the music significantly. I’d be sure that is not happening first before doing anything else. If you jump up and down and anything moves or can be heard that’s a good test if not sure about floor construction otherwise.
Also yes turntable setup issues are common as well.
All great posts! Thank you all for bearing with me.
I will try the tweaks, lower crossover and VTA. The TT was just set up by Jacques at Oracle so it should be quite right.
I need to reduce reflective surfaces with corner traps and tapestry wall hangings and use area rugs to balance the large ceiling area. The floor itself is super rigid and solid in a 100yr old house; no flex, give, or squeak.
Larryi is right. I do tend to turn it up, trying to capture a presence or visceral connection with the sound.
I'm guessing that lush indicates more pronounced middle frequencies, warmer sound. My sound is detailed but still musical, not harsh or analytical. Perhaps an element of lushness is needed. Wlutke, I like the idea of IC and tube upgrades as part of the overall plan.
Stock power cords are no-no. I would play with different tubes and improve all the cabling and room acoustics first, probably cartridge second. Reproducing the sound of full orchestra is extremely difficult, don't expect too much, your equipment can't come close to it.
Start with a ten-pack of the HFT's and go from there.
Buy some of Herbie's tube dampners for your tubes. Again, highly recommended. They will give you more of a NATURAL sense of detail because they remove the glare and smear caused by micro vibrations coming from your tubes.
Also, instead of concentrating on "detail," concentrate on tonal balance. I've heard super transparent systems that after 20 minutes of listening, I'm looking for the exit door. The emotional impact comes from recreating live instruments in the room ... or at least as close as you can get. And live listening isn't about "detail." I have never attended a live concert and thought to myself ... man, those guys sound "detailed."
Inna is correct in the assessment of stock power cords. Synergistic Research has some reasonably priced after market PC's available. There's a thread detailing them here on A'gon. Go with the more expensive SR Black cords over the Reds.
And finally, mapman is correct in his assessment of floors. You can go a long way in solving the floor problem with an inexpensive set of Mapleshade unfinished platforms under your speakers or stands. Just spike the platforms to the floor though the carpet, then spike the speakers to the platforms.
None of these "tweaks" are subtle; they are major improvements. Check out my system in the virtual system area. My listening room was a major roadblock to good sound. Without changing speakers or electronics, I've managed, through the above tweaks and others, to transform the system into one of the most tonally correct systems I've ever heard. My audiophile friends who've heard the system all agree. Its emotionally engaging and puts the performers right there in the room. All of the usual things we look for are there ... sound stage, depth, height, natural detail, tonal balance ... all there to enjoy. All wife friendly too. :-)
First is to move the speakers around. Look for a change is sweet spot in the room. Change your listening position.
And I noticed a sudden lifelessness in my own system the other evening. I noticed that I had accidentally hit the Invert button on the remote for my Herron VTSP-3A preamp and inverted the absolute phase across the entire system. I hit the Invert button and changed back to normal absolute phase and the system woke up again.
So maybe try inverting the leads on both speakers to see if that doesn't make a difference.
Don't ask me, I used to never believe in absolute phase, but it made a difference on this occasion for me in my system.
It has really helped me listen to and think about the sound. Interesting about the visceral physical part of the experience. I suppose this has to do with focused energy, even at low volume levels. I could imagine when dissipated or conflicted the energy pattern will be heard and felt as weaker. I feel like this part is missing for me.
Ok, I looked at the SR HFT. Small metal pieces with a concave conical shape. I gotta admit that seems a stretch, but of course I haven't experienced them myself.
Over the holidays, Ill be playing with a lot of the ideas above: speaker placement, taming the room, tube dampers, fuse replacement, new isolating feet for the phono preamp. I may even begin to look at the daunting issue of ICs and power cords.
Those little HFT's may look like the little guy getting the sand kicked in his face by the bully, but as soon as you have them installed, you'll realize the HFT's are the ones doing the azz kicking. :-)
room treatment is the missing part of alot of sound not being up to snuff...went through it and thought i was doomed...1st refects and corner bass traps...speakers (behind) got the main mojo traps...simple...didnt have to do ceiling,ect.... lot of the times thought i needed new amp,new source...bs
Have you tried cleaning every connector and tube pin and socket down the line? This is worth doing every six months, and may bring back the breath of life that you’re missing.
Audition an upper end Audience power conditioner if you can. Love mine with good but not ultra expensive power cords which clearly do make a positive difference. PowerChord Se is quite good. Mixing cables can work well too but it can become mind boggling. Just an opinion of course.
Cheap advice, as well. In some instances the improvement heard swapping cables and fuses may be the difference between a clean and dirty electrical contact. This isn't surprising when a cleaning regime produces a handful of dirty Q-tips.
Your room seems to me, to be a big part of your problem. As others have mentioned, an area rug between your listening position and the speakers should help. Your speaker placement in relation to your primary listening position is absolutely critical though, and would be where I would start.. You may want to give the Sumiko Master Set a try. It is a step by step approach to speaker placement. Here's a link:
usually music doesnt catches you when it's flat. it can have lots of details but be flat. it means most of the time that it doesnt have or lacks dynamics, and combined with other audio factors, it would end up lacking musicality, which is the emotion provider!! very difficult to investigate your problem from a distance, but my best guess would be either with tuning your tonearm/cartridge, or if you know it is well done, i would then look straight into the amp. i would say that one is not fit. lacks quality and power for your inefficient speakers. you could decide to change to higher dB speakers, but really good and high dB speakers at reasonable prices are difficult to find and often have a strong character of their own which you may not find suitable.
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