@nonoise All it took was some enterprising chaps to apply it to audiophile needs and jack up the price. You forgot...."and apply the appropriate color!" BTW, I suggested years ago to try orthodontic (i.e., very small) rubber bands around the tops of the fuse holder clips to improve the contact between the fuse and the holder, in conjunction with a bit of ProGold or you favorite contact enhancer. Obviously this rubber band tweak works on only the cradle-type fuse holders not the cylinder holders with the screw-off cap that are often on the rear panel of equipment. I like sand-filled ceramic body fuses which are higher priced than their standard glass counterparts (about $3/fuse!), but if yours are glass try wrapping a bit of teflon tape around the glass for damping. Use orange tape if you wish 😄 |
Getting back to reality for a sec it wasn’t until relatively recently that some audiophile fuses’ costs soared. The original fuses by HiFi Tuning in Germany and Isoclean in Japan (UL certified, as if audiophiles give a rat’s behind) were all around 50-100 bucks. Even on The Cable Co. website page for fuses, the majority are 20-50 bucks. I am guessing somewhat in saying there are 10 aftermarket fuse companies, most of which are probably wondering where their next meal is coming from.
Then along came Synergistic and Audio Magic around ten years ago with higher prices. HiFi Tuning swore up and down fuses were not directional but rather burned in properly no matter which way they were inserted initially, but later changed their tune, as it were. Now we know that all,fuses, even run if the mill Busmann and Littelfuse, are directional. Good luck to any fuse company selling any more fuses as it seems there’s a Big Boy in town. Unless I miss my guess a $150 dollar price tag won’t deter very many serious (read rabid) audiophiles. It’s just a hunch. 🤡
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Pure gold Jerry, pure gold! |
You might not recall the dufus comedian Kenny Bania who made that remark when Jerry gave him some crappy jokes to use in his routine. Otherwise you might not be inclined to use it so frequently. 😬 Why do they call it Ovaltine? it’s not oval. Why don’t they call it Roundtine? 🤗
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Roberttt, you gave me quite a scare. For a moment I thought you might try to peer review me right here on the ‘Gon. 😬 |
Geoff, as much as I liked your oft reference to the Doors "Break on Through", a favorite of mine, not to your mention Jefferson Airplane references, I totally enjoyed Roberttcan flushing you down. Nothing but Karma exemplified. Ready for your s(hitty)
comeback.
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That’s about what I would expect from a pinhead, jitter. How was that? Or am I losing my touch?
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George, what has you sad george? Really is calling someone a pinhead appropriate? |
Sometimes it is. So yes, Mr. Smarty Pants 👖 Have you figured out why aftermarket fuses sound so good or did you give up? 🤡
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Sorry george, I just use good $3-4 dollar fuses, and I get my pebbles from the beach :-) ..... and have equipment with competently designed power supplies. If you "believe" that aftermarket fuses are great, perhaps you can't afford competently designed equipment? But hey, if you want to donate money to companies, who neither have the knowledge nor the equipment to competently design or test something like a fuse, that is your choice. Why would I stop you. I figure it's karma. |
Good ones! I haven’t ever heard that before. 🙄 You’re a quick learner, Mr. Smarty Pants 👖 Feel free to use that as your moniker. |
roberttcan Hey Rob, I know all here know who you mean, but can you please stop calling the resident cl**n Geoff, "George", I’m starting to get a complex. Cheers George |
Yea, its cool. Geoff is referring to the pinheads in "Keep on Trucking with Mr. Natural", which me and my buds loved. But totally unlike like Mr. Natural, he insulted me and called it a pity party when I mentioned my little kitty was sick.. Tomorrow I have to put him down at 7 months. So glad roberttcan came around to give that Washington DC piece of crap what he desirves. |
Oh, geez, not the cat again. RIP Fluffy. Am I being too cruel to suggest they’re putting the same thing in the water up in Vermont or wherever as they do down under?
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Sorry to hear about your cat, jetter.... |
Thecarpathian, a sincere thank you. |
That sucks Jetter.
Sorry to hear.
Had to put one of my Savannah cats down a few months ago, not a nice vet visit at all.
Call me soft and daft I do not care but when the vet handled back Tai, wrapped in the blanket I brought him in so I could take him home to bury, it was hard to walk out without breaking down.
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uberwaltz, thank you, I hear you. I made the visit as early as possible tomorrow. Dalton was only 7 months old. Made a gallant effort at making it. Nuff said. |
Talking about fuse directionality, Hifi Tuning has a logo with a diode symbol in it. At some point people began believing this diode-arrow was the factory tested recommended direction of the fuse. But it was not, it is just a logo.
Personally I do hear a difference in a direction, but I also believe it diminishes after some power on.
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HiFi Tuning started off claiming that fuses break in correctly no matter which way they were first inserted. But later, about the time they had an independent testing company look into directionality of fuses, they changed their tune, as it were, after the results of the testing, including listening tests, was completed.The results of the tests appear on the HiFi Tuning website as the so called Data Sheets, which shows measurements of voltage drop across various fuses, both directions, including HiFi Tuning fuses, with and without Fuses were tested in both DC and AC circuits. http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf |
Addendum - The advantage of the diode symbol 🔜 on HiFi Tuning fuses is that it makes it easier to tell which way the fuse was inserted when experimenting with directionality. I.e., makes the fuse cosmetically non-symmetrical.
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The GECOM technologies document is not a proper report of a metrology testing lab, this is purely a marketing document and an auspicious one at that. Let's point out the BS in the document: 1) No listing of equipment is provided, no pictures of test setups, nothing. Just take our word for it on the testing. You and I know, that is not how testing labs operate. Every test has a full equipment list and normally pictures. 2) The resistance difference "claimed" from direction 1 to direction 2 is on the order of 0.0001 to 0.00005 ohms, and the claim in some cases represents 0.05% difference at 2-3 milliohms. Check out their accuracy page. They can't even measure to that accuracy at those resistances .... and they are claiming to be able to repeat it in both directions? 3) Copper resistance has a temp coefficient of ~ (3.8* 10^-3)/C, silver similar at room temp. That means a change of 0.38% in resistance value per degree C ... and yet they claim in their report to measure resistance changes to an accuracy of 0.05 - 0.1% or the change that would occur with a 0.25 celsius temp difference. I am calling BS .. super big time BS. There is 0 chance they temp controlled in that lab (see pictures - not a proper metrology lab) to that accuracy, AND they would need to use pulse measurements to eliminate self-heating (no mention), which means on time would have huge impact due to self-heating of the fuse temperature. (p.s. also means that the temperature of your wires in your audio system has way more system impact) 4) They talk about Vector Impedance measurements, but don't claim the HiFi is the best for those (like every other one) ... and curiously the mentioned table of results is missing. 5) Their "noise increase" is not nearly well defined enough to be meaningful. Increase over what as a start. OH, and this is the best one. You can guarantee every piece of equipment they use has a garden variety fuse in it, is powered with a cheap power cord, and is connected to a rather garden variety power bar. But sure george, you use these worthless results to try to justify your position.
geoffkait17,710 posts10-25-2019 5:48am
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf |
roberttcan" GECOM technologies document is not a proper report of a metrology testing lab, this is purely a marketing document and an auspicious one at that. Let’s point out the BS in the document: 1) No listing of equipment is provided, no pictures of test setups,’ That is very funny you are attacking this detailed, authoritative, informative report because it does not have pictures! The report does not include all of the background information because that is consistent from study to study and is otherwise available there is no need to report it individually for each study what is obvious here is that once someone comes out with actual data you shoot it down but you have no data yourself to supplant it even though you claim to have actual done extensive research and studies to support the millions of electronic devices you claim to have manufactured. |
Dear Mr. Smarty Pants 👖 I’m afraid you need to take your troubles up with someone who cares. I do not (rpt not) use HiFi Tuning or their data sheets to justify my position. I actually am not trying to prove anything. I do not subscribe to the idea that a drop in resistance is the REASON for directionality, it’s only a clue. A lead, as detectives say. In fact, I have pointed out the obvious mistakes in the HiFi Tuning fuse data many times right here on these fora. So please stop putting words in my mouth!
Now, what is interesting, for the novice like yourself, is how consistent the differences in measured voltage drop are with *listening experience*. And how consistent the improvement in voltage drop is after cryogenic treatment.
So, at a minimum, I think it’s fair to say - based on the measurements data - SOMETHING IS GOING ON. 🤗 it’s not near as BLACK AND WHITE as you believe. A listener who doesn’t have a learning or hearing disorder can almost always tell when a fuse is in the correct direction. Even when the fuse is an ordinary Littelfuse or Busmann. We don’t need no stinking measurements! 😛 Some people would rather fight 🥊 than switch 🔛
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To you, this document may appear detailed, authoritative and informative. To someone skilled in the art, it is amateurish and flawed. NO, there is no consistency from study to study, especially for something like this. That is not at all a justification for no pictures or no equipment list. I get 3rd party test reports all the time to meet customer requirements or to validate results where we are unsure our in-house testing is sufficient or for compliance testing. With every report is a picture of the test setup AND and equipment list. Both items are essential to validate the results and/or to interpret the accuracy of the tests. Whether I post results or not, and the funny thing is, you have no idea if I have or not, because like you, our names our anonymous here, MATTERS NOT AT ALL to the claims and accuracy of this report. It is a simple fact, yes fact, by the labs own admission (with their equipment accuracy standards), that they cannot measure to an accuracy that could justify a conclusion that fuses are directional w.r.t. resistance, and, based on pictures of their lab, and the lack of any discussion of temperature control, pulse measurement, etc. it is easy dismiss resistance variations of less than a few percent due to the lack of temperature control. Heck, they didn't even list how many samples they tested, is this the result of one carefully chosen sample against random competitor samples, is this an average of 2, 5, 10? .... what is the standard deviation, max/min? .... you know, REAL test data. They don't even list the test current for fuses under 3A, AND, list a DC resistance of one competitor of 0.58 ohms, but somehow its AC resistance is closer to 0.068. That would suggest measurement error.
clearthink950 posts10-25-2019 10:30am
roberttcan" GECOM technologies document is not a proper report of a metrology testing lab, this is purely a marketing document and an auspicious one at that. Let’s point out the BS in the document: 1) No listing of equipment is provided, no pictures of test setups,’
"That is very funny you are attacking this detailed, authoritative, informative report because it does not have pictures! The report does not include all of the background information because that is consistent from study to study and is otherwise available there is no need to report it individually for each study what is obvious here is that once someone comes out with actual data you shoot it down but you have no data yourself to supplant it even though you claim to have actual done extensive research and studies to support the millions of electronic devices you claim to have manufactured." |
GK 1) I am surprised that with your extensive knowledge that you didn't know that cryogenic treatment of metals for conductivity is not a new thing. Heck, you can find scientific paper on it. They show about a 2% improvement in conductivity, unfortunately that is likely near their real measurement accuracy, but that level of improvement would not be unwarranted with partial cryo treatment and it could even be a bit better. I say partial as they likely did not have a 2 stage process that would result in even better results near room temperature. Of course, not sure why I would pay 20-50X to get the improvement that could be achieved by just going up to the next fuse value. W.R.T. to your audible claim of direction, since you claim the change is instantly obvious, YOU should be able to easily recreate it (with someone else changing the direction .. or not) ?
geoffkait17,713 posts10-25-2019 10:35am
Now, what is interesting, for the novice like yourself, is how consistent the differences in measured voltage drop are with *listening experience*. And how consistent the improvement in voltage drop is after cryogenic treatment.
So, at a minimum, I think it’s fair to say - based on the measurements data - SOMETHING IS GOING ON. 🤗 it’s not near as BLACK AND WHITE as you believe. A listener who doesn’t have a learning or hearing disorder can almost always tell when a fuse is in the correct direction. |
Hey, it’s a hobby. Get over it! People chose what they want to believe.
As for your snippy remark re metal cryo I was one of the very first to use cryo for metal and other materials processing way back when you were wearing bell bottoms, Mr. Smarty Pants 👖 |
For the record, I have never ever worn bell bottoms. I am old, I am not that old. Yes I am aware that cryo treatment was and is used heavily in space/aerospace .... and of course you were one of the first 332 :-)
geoffkait17,715 posts10-25-2019 12:01pmHey, it’s a hobby. Get over it! People chose what they want to believe.
As for your snippy remark re metal cryo I was one of the very first to use cryo for metal and other materials processing way back when you were wearing bell bottoms, Mr. Smarty Pants 👖 |
Yet another first hand experience of the fact that changing the direction of the fuse does indeed change the sound. Just finished burning in a Furutech fuse in my DIY burner and placed it in my Clayton Audio S40 amplifier. No doubt the sound, bass being the most obvious, improved in one direction vs the other. Most obvious and no ear straining needed.
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Well there ya go. Case closed. |
roberttcanT"this document may appear detailed, authoritative and informative. To someone skilled in the art, it is amateurish and flawed... That is not at all a justification for no pictures or no equipment list...With every report is a picture of the test setup AND and equipment list."
I understand you're wish, desire, and preference for pretty pictures but for educated, informed, literate readers such pictures are just a nuisance that get's in the way of analyzing, assessing, and verifying actual data.
The report does not include all of the background information because that is consistent from study to study and is otherwise available there is no need to report it individually for each study what is obvious here is that once someone comes out with actual data you shoot it down but you have no data yourself to supplant it even though you claim to have actual done extensive research and studies to support the millions of electronic devices you claim to have manufactured.
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I combed my hair in the opposite direction this morning. Bass was much improved and I could hear more articulation in the vocals.
Case closed. |
You only have one hair? That’s too bad. |
Well that didn't take long to grab your attention now, did it? |
To use your desired form of hyperbole clearthink: Your post is brutally ignorant, horribly misinformed, stupendously communicative of your lack of education or literacy in the topic at hand, and highly illustrative of your partisan desire to promote a particular outcome or position such that you are making up a version of reality that does not exist, or are ignoring reality to advance your goals. ME!
clearthink959 posts10-25-2019 1:38pm
roberttcanT"this document may appear detailed, authoritative and informative. To someone skilled in the art, it is amateurish and flawed... That is not at all a justification for no pictures or no equipment list...With every report is a picture of the test setup AND and equipment list." "I understand you’re wish, desire, and preference for pretty pictures but for educated, informed, literate readers such pictures are just a nuisance that get’s in the way of analyzing, assessing, and verifying actual data. The report does not include all of the background information because that is consistent from study to study and is otherwise available there is no need to report it individually for each study what is obvious here is that once someone comes out with actual data you shoot it down but you have no data yourself to supplant it even though you claim to have actual done extensive research and studies to support the millions of electronic devices you claim to have manufactured. " |
roberttcan"Your post is brutally ignorant, horribly misinformed, stupendously communicative of your lack of education or literacy"
You seem to have a problem with comprehension, understanding, and reasoning and you're claims as a result do not withstand or survive even the most trivial, brief, cursory review. |
Any time you would like to publicly compare our engineering knowledge w.r.t. to audio, electronics, and acoustics, you let me know clearthink. I don’t claim to know more than everyone, but your response to my analysis of the fuse "data" shows that I know a lot more than you.
clearthink961 posts10-25-2019 3:01pm roberttcan"Your post is brutally ignorant, horribly misinformed, stupendously communicative of your lack of education or literacy" "You seem to have a problem with comprehension, understanding, and reasoning and you’re claims as a result do not withstand or survive even the most trivial, brief, cursory review." |
I would like to propose an experiment, for all you fuse guys, if I may. It’s a “fuse-less,” yet profound upgrade. The cost is nominal. I firmly believe the benefits to be real, verifiable, and much less expensive than any fuse-du Jour. Full-disclosure, I’ve performed this experiment on myself, as well as three close audiophile friends and the results have been unanimous. One caveat, cannabis is a key component. Methodology: *Visit Goodwill or some other suitable source and purchase a receiver or integrated amplifier, spending no more than $50 USD plus tax. The cheaper the better. *Hook up your new-to-you electronic item and allow for an hour or two of warm-up softly playing the source of your choice. DO NOT do anything remotely close to “critical listening” during this time! *At dusk, or later, shut the shades if any, dim the lights, and apply flame to a candle wick or two and sit down quietly to continue with the experiment: *Before playing any music- take a hit or two of fine Afghan or perhaps Colombian if it’s available (respect to Steely Dan), allow a few minutes to pass. At that point press play. For jazz lovers, I strongly suggest the re-mastered release of the immortal “Kind of Blue.” *Close your eyes. Get Ready! *Wait a minute or two, and then, proceeding with caution, open your eyes. *Do not be startled when you see that Miles and the gang ARE. IN. THE. ROOM. with you! *Enjoy! |
If you have noise these days, you need more than fuses. |
What about critical listening for those who aren't total potheads?
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The trouble I have with seeing Miles and the whole gang in the room is that I’m afraid it might be when nothing is playing. 🤪
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thecarpathian ... Herbal substances are not necessary in order to enjoy music and the great artists that bring it to us. Personally, I think our hearing is more astute with a sober mind. Maybe a glass of wine or two will seem to enhance the music, but it is most likely an illusion. Same with MJ. I DO have friends that tell me that being under the influence of MJ is like adding 100K to the system though. MJ is not for me. I tried it once when I was younger ... it made me want to rape and kill. Here’s an album that will tickle your eardrums: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSWVyXc7ioY&list=RDQSWVyXc7ioY&index=1 Frank |
Thanks for the album suggestion Frank. I and my uncontaminated mind and body will check it out! |
For a high that will knock your socks off try drinking six Guinness Stouts as fast as you can sometime.
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I'd rather keep my socks on....
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*"Reality" is illusory at best.
*Tight sphincters are a hazard to one’s health.
*And if that isn’t enough for a single post, who can provide a scientific, objectivist, working definition of "critical listening?" |
oregonpapa
Herbal substances are not necessary in order to enjoy music and the great artists that bring it to us.
Would certainly help in great big doses to here what fusers hear with their $150 mains fuses, especially with direction change difference, that has to be some really good s**t |
Wow the Orange fuse is unbelievable! I can hear a big difference right after installed. Feels like another big barrier in the current path removed. The bass is huge! Everything sounds so clear now. You won't know how far your system can go until you know! |
