"I don’t wan’t to spoil anyone’s fun and if they have the money and want to give it a go and make their own decision that’s great, just select the right ratings and take a few sensible precautions." Excellent perspective and doesn’t smack of the the preconceived notion, that everyone else is so inept as to electrocute themselves, or burn their house down.
Something For The Fuse Guys ...
There are fuses, and then, there are fuses.
I'm evaluating some prototype fuses that I received in the mail three days ago.
Over the past few years, I've used fuses from five different manufacturers. The last three were the Red, Black and Blue fuses from Synergistic Research. Each one incrementally improved the sound of my system. My favorite so far was the SR Blue.
The prototype fuses being evaluated presently raises the SQ beyond all of the others mentioned above. The major improvement to my ears is better tonal accuracy. Instruments and voices are more life-like. The noise is reduced allowing for a more solid 3-D presentation with the musicians more solidly presented on the sound stage. Overall, more information is fleshed out of CDs and LPs.
The manufacturer, the price and the name of the prototype fuses will come later. I don't have the information thus far. My understanding is, if all works out, the release date is to be mid-October.
Stay tuned ...
Frank
I'm evaluating some prototype fuses that I received in the mail three days ago.
Over the past few years, I've used fuses from five different manufacturers. The last three were the Red, Black and Blue fuses from Synergistic Research. Each one incrementally improved the sound of my system. My favorite so far was the SR Blue.
The prototype fuses being evaluated presently raises the SQ beyond all of the others mentioned above. The major improvement to my ears is better tonal accuracy. Instruments and voices are more life-like. The noise is reduced allowing for a more solid 3-D presentation with the musicians more solidly presented on the sound stage. Overall, more information is fleshed out of CDs and LPs.
The manufacturer, the price and the name of the prototype fuses will come later. I don't have the information thus far. My understanding is, if all works out, the release date is to be mid-October.
Stay tuned ...
Frank
666 responses Add your response
pragmasi ...
Agreed, pragmasi ... but what prompted me to ask the question was this statement you made:
What evidence do you have, or what experiments have you conducted, that would lead you to the conclusion that there won't be any improvement in audio performance if you haven't tried the more expensive after-market fuses? This would include fuses from HiFi Tuning, Beeswax fuses and/or Synergistic Research fuses? With the exception of the Beeswax fuse, I have used all of the above fuses in my system over the past few years. Every one of them has been a substantial improvement in sound quality. This includes four different incarnations of SR fuses ... The Blacks, the Reds, the Blues and now, the Orange fuses. Going from stock fuses normally supplied by the various manufacturers to the new SR Orange fuses would make a profound improvement in performance in my opinion. And ... that opinion is not based upon any scientific acumen I may possess, as I possess very little knowledge in that area. All of my opinions have been based upon actual experience with said products. Looking forward to your response. Frank |
I'll try and answer your questions as well as I can. I design and build amplifiers, and although I shouldn't admit this given my previous sermon on health and safety - I have tested designs with no fuse at all during the early prototyping stages. I have a two stage approach with testing a design, the first uses lab equipment to ensure the design performs as designed and is stable in all likely scenarios. The second is extensive listening tests (I think I'm well over 200 hours on my latest design that hasn't even made itself into a proper chassis yet). My engineering knowledge tells me that fuses will play no discernible part in the sound of the system and my experience bears that out. I guess an analogy is that when I play pool I never feel the need to move the beer chiller further away from the table in case it's gravity affects the balls' trajectory. If someone told me I ought to then I'd not be pressured into doing it and if they told me that they'd done it and it improved their game then I'd just move to another table and try to ignore them. |
Audio manufacturers certainly have heard about "Boutique" fuses...just ask one of them (and stand back...some of these designers get pretty testy about this subject)...pragmasi is exactly right in his sober and reality based comments, and it's easy to see that the overwhelming majority of manufacturers clearly don't care about Magic Fuses, and clearly know full well that the fancy fuse market is rife with illogical hyperbole designed to appeal to those who desperately need to be regarded as Golden Eared. Marketing something that costs peanuts to make that sells for 150 bucks is a potential goldmine...if you can fool enough of the insecure faithful to buy in. |
pragmasi ... Thanks for your interesting response To answer your question ... I know of no manufacturer that uses boutique fuses in their finished products. There's a price point to this. It is no secret that a dealer pays 50% to 60% of the end retail price of the high-end electronics sitting on his/her shelf. If a unit cost the factory $2500 to build, the dealer gets it for $5000. Then the consumer pays $10,000 ... less anything that is negotiated off of the full retail price. Let's say, just for discussion, that the manufacturer pays for a fuse at "dealer cost." The end product, once it hits the dealer's shelf, would be four times the cost of what the factory paid for the fuse. So, a fuse that retails for $160, would cost the factory approximately $80.00. That would be a $320.00 increase in the price of the final product to the end consumer. Extrapolate it out for every device used in the manufacturing of any product. In this case high-end audio. There are companies that use the very best and expensive parts attainable ... and the consumer pays through the nose for those products. There's a reason we have speakers that cost $250,000 per pair, and amplifiers that cost $150,000. I don't even want to get into turntables. If every manufacturer were to use the most expensive parts available, then people with modest incomes would never be able to afford to enter the hobby. For me ... I'll stick with my ARC gear and upgrade fuses as they come available. Frank |
This has been asked on other threads and some manufacturers were mentioned on their using aftermarket fuses. One that comes to mind is Wyred4Sound. It wasn't a standard thing for them to do but when I inquired about them doing it, they said they were fine doing it as they believed it stretched the improvement about 5% or so. However, these threads all boil down to tawdry entertainment seeing as how they've been hashed to death here. If anyone has any doubts as to the efficacy of fuses, they need not spend a lot of money. It's been pointed out that simply replacing a cheap, bog standard fuse with an aftermarket fuse will change the sound. For a small investment, just swap one out and hear it for yourself. Until then, tawdry it is. If you haven't tried it, you don't have a leg to stand on. All the best, Nonoise |
Also, as I’ve oft opined, even if you’re a real cheapskate or hard-core non-believer, you can get that 5% boost by simply flipping the stock fuse you’re currently using around. 🔜 There is a risk, obviously, that you may experience a 5% drop in SQ instead. 🤡 As Bob Dylan says at the end of all his albums, good luck everybody! |
@nonoise .. Ayre are also very firm believers in aftermarket fuses AND better footers under their equipment. I know this personally from numerous discussions with them prior to swapping out the fuse in my ax7e. I have this in both verbal form and emails from them. IMHO if it is good with a major mid to high end USA based manufacturer like Ayre then it is MORE than good enough for me. The ONLY reason I will not be rushing to change from Blue to the new Orange is purely financial as only recently spent $600 on 4 Blue fuses. Now I have mentioned this previously but let’s say there is a market for used fuses I cannot see them fetching much more than 50% retail if that tbh. I am awaiting the clean Green fuse thank you...... |
Had a pair of Odyssey amps, in house, for audition. Opened one up(with permission), to look at and test a couple things. Found Hi-Fi Tuning Gold fuses(it’s been a while) in the rails. Never looked at the AC main fuse. He’d just used the amps for demos, at a trade show. Can’t say if he sells his amps, with them installed. It would be interesting, if someone were motivated enough, to contact all manufacturers of audio equipment, just to ACTUALLY ESTABLISH what the, "overwhelming majority" would say. However: I suppose, that would also depend on who, from whatever firm, answered the phone. |
Amp manufacturers have too much to lose by being wrapped around the axle with a snake oil controversy. 🐍 If they are even aware of it which they probably aren’t. More than anyone else, amp designers are from the “good solid engineering principles” side of the street. They don’t need the hassle. The last thing in the world they want to do is get involved with the fancy fuse rumpus, or the power cord rumpus or the wire directionality 🔛 rumpus. They have too much on the line. |
Had a pair of Odyssey amps, in house, for audition. Opened one up(with permission), to look at and test a couple things. Found Hi-Fi Are you trying to say Odyssey come new with Gold tuning fuses? If you look at all the Odyssey amps (Google images of internal shots) and there quite a few. You will see they all from what I saw, just have 20c normal 3ag or 2ag rail fuses in them, on the board right next to the speaker RF filter coil Wait a minute! maybe all the owners of those amps, threw out the "Gold Tuning Fuses" and put in the 20c ones instead because they were better!🤔 Cheers George |
George. Please try copying and pasting ALL of Rodmans Statement instead of trying to be clever and failing miserably. Opened one up(with permission), to look at and test a couple things. Found Hi-Fi Tuning Gold fuses(it’s been a while) in the rails. Never looked at the AC main fuse. He’d just used the amps for demos, at a trade show. Can’t say if he sells his amps, with them installedCheers mate! |
Why wouldn't an exhibitor at a trade show trick out the system a little bit? This is nothing new. The rooms are hard enough to get sounding right, so every little bit helps. I remember the first time I heard the ARC REF-75 with the KT150s installed. It was at an audio show. I already owned a REF-75 with the stock KT120s. The dealer at the show had replaced the stock tubes with th KT-150s, which I picked up on immediately upon entering the room. I asked the dealer what he did, and he pointed out the new tubes. No big deal. When I got home I called Upscale Audio and ordered four KT-150s for myself. Nice improvement to be had there. How can I get more of that stuff called ... "voodoo snake oil? Frank |
To all those thinking about blowing $150 on what seems to be a 20c fuse with exterior colorful "glitzing" The only way a fuse can give an improvement is if the old one has seen "too many turn on cycles" which are the highest stresses a fuse will see. And when they become too old and crusty, they end up looking like this. Just replace them only if your technically able, with the same new 20c fuse, and you’ll be back in business, forget blowing the $150 for a voodoo boutique fuse, which BTW will age just as fast as the 20c one. A slow-blo fuse "ageing" right to left https://ibb.co/m4XWgYS A fast-blo fuse "ageing" left to right https://ibb.co/5R57d8M Cheers George |
".....read the post carefully, and you’ll understand the point being made."("Cheers", indeed) Excellent advice! Someone seems to have some some serious problems with comprehension. Not only about whether I said the amps come with the fancy fuses installed, but- where I said I opened one up("innards were exposed"). To recap: "Had a pair of Odyssey amps, IN HOUSE, FOR AUDITION. Opened one up(with permission), to look at and test a couple things. Found Hi-Fi Tuning Gold fuses(it’s been a while) in the rails. Never looked at the AC main fuse. HE’D JUST USED the amps for demos, AT A TRADE SHOW. Can’t say if he sells his amps, with them installed." (Emphasis added, for the comprehensively challenged) Just another one of those special moments, on this tragicomical AudiogoN site. Now: back to your regular programming. |
Can’t say if he sells his amps, with them installed.Just Google Odyssey images, and like I said they ( 4x) are next to the red coils on the pcb’s, and they are just Plain Jane 2ag and or 3ag for other models, here’s a pic they are circled in red all 20c glass fuses.. https://ibb.co/vjLRc6j https://ibb.co/1qnyQzS https://ibb.co/9cFqc2K |
Short memory, too:
georgehifi5,996 posts10-20-2019 7:11pm Had a pair of Odyssey amps, in house, for audition. Opened one up(with permission), to look at and test a couple things. Found Hi-Fi Are you trying to say Odyssey come new with Gold tuning fuses? If you look at all the Odyssey amps (Google images of internal shots) and there quite a few. You will see they all from what I saw, just have 20c normal 3ag or 2ag rail fuses in them, on the board right next to the speaker RF filter coil Wait a minute! maybe all the owners of those amps, threw out the "Gold Tuning Fuses" and put in the 20c ones instead because they were better!🤔 |
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News flash! 💥 Exhibitors at audio shows do not (rpt not) employ tweaks. They eschew them. Maybe a few that I’m aware of use tweaks to any extent, but most prefer to exhibit brand new components. Are they still living in the 80s? The only ones who went out of their way to tweak their systems were John Curl/Bob Crump, Mapleshade and Golden Sound. If there is one manufacturer who uses aftermarket fuses, it is not a trend, it’s an outlier. One well-known German audio company (starts with a B) told the intrepid roving tweakmeister, Clark Johnsen, who was trying to get them to try out some new fangled CD treatment (was it Optrix?) - “Vee don’t believe in tweaks.” One well-known audio salon in Northern Virginia once opined, “We want our customers to experience the pure sound of our components, so we don’t use tweaks.” We’ll, that’s just super! 🙄 |
btw, Georgie- Anyone that looks at my post history, will find the vast majority are an effort to encourage others to experiment for themselves. Well; that and they’ll realize, how full of ..it, you are. ie: "Wow!!! just looked at your history, out of 8 pages of post, possibly 6 pages of which are on the Synergistic Research fuses, others are on other voodoo SR gadgets." ?? You’re a real case(SEEK HELP)!!! |
^^^ Georgie-Porgie has one major flaw ... its called "lack of credibility." He constantly accuses me, and others, of being a "shill" for SR, and as of this date, he has not responded, nor even acknowledged the post I made earlier in this thread: georgehifi ... If you were to become a more astute observer, and stow your animosity for a time, you would know that I have started threads on a multitude of products. Did you read my threads on Audio Research products? How about Herbie’s products, or Perfect Path Technologies products? Have you taken advantage of any of the multitude of music recommendations I’ve offered on this site over the years, George? Why the silence, George? Why are you continuing to spew negativity all over the path you walk? Turn the telescope around, George. Try to be a more positive individual, George. (Sheesh!) Cheers .... Frank |
I had some Odyssey Kismet monoblocks at one time that Klaus built for me and I asked him about aftermarket fuses and he said some make a positive sound difference and some don’t. I told him I was interested in trying some SR and AM fuses and he said to go for it and see if I like it so at least he had an open mind about it. I replaced all the fuses on the board as well as at the iec with SR Black and it indeed made a positive difference. |
Oregonpapa is right...he's also a shill for Perfect Path as well as SR. And by "shill" I point to endless hyperbole regarding these products, with far less of that shameless support aimed at Herbie's and ARC. Not even close...posting paragraph after paragraph claiming astonishing benefits from SR's "fuse of the week" that will, if you believe this hype, utterly transform your system...with the possible caveat that you're either too insensitive to notice these astonishing benefits, or the resolution of your sadly poor little system is lacking somehow. All nonsense with expectation bias driving new users to the fraudulently misrepresented Magic Fuses, and allowing old users to come in and claim to be on board with any new fuse simply because they're part of the club. Again, fuses won't and simply don't make any tonal differences appear from their otherwise simple place in the component, and that fact never changes. |
wolf_garcia"All nonsense with expectation bias driving new users to the fraudulently misrepresented Magic Fuses," Fraud! Fraud! Fraud! Once again we see charges of illegal activity that would delight anyone dedicated, sincere, or intelligent enough to pursue a typical American "Class Action Suit" against those perpetrating this vile, predatory, unspeakable deception on the gullible, uneducated, and naive why is it though that no one ever pursues such a claim through proper established, legal, regulatory channels perhaps it is because they themselves represent the fraud? I am just asking not making accusation! |
"Again, fuses won’t and simply don’t make any tonal differences appear from their otherwise simple place in the component, and that fact never changes." A, "fact" has to be based on something and proven. The above statement is based on nothing. That makes it an opinion. The typical naysayer, pontificating from ’The Throne of Abject Ignorance’. |
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" Wow!!! just looked at your history, out of 8 pages of post, possibly 6 pages of which are on the Synergistic Research fuses, others are on other voodoo SR gadgets.His post got removed anyone remember what he called himself? BTW oregonpapa, wolf_garcia can see the forest for the trees, it's you fusers that can't. It's all shilling with voodoo/snake oil statements to you guys, nothing that actually contributes to the Audiogon society. |
Because no company that vends in snake oil is big enough or has deep enough pockets do even begin to warrant the time and effort of a law firm working on contingency fees to even consider touching this. The larger the company you will note the more careful they are in their claim. Now if someone was injured or suffered severe property damage from a product that has not undergone adequate safety testing ... that would be a different ball game. clearthink903 posts10-21-2019 2:28pmwolf_garcia"All nonsense with expectation bias driving new users to the fraudulently misrepresented Magic Fuses," Fraud! Fraud! Fraud! Once again we see charges of illegal activity that would delight anyone dedicated, sincere, or intelligent enough to pursue a typical American "Class Action Suit" against those perpetrating this vile, predatory, unspeakable deception on the gullible, uneducated, and naive why is it though that no one ever pursues such a claim through proper established, legal, regulatory channels perhaps it is because they themselves represent the fraud? I am just asking not making accusation! |
75% of the world believes in a deity, pick any of those people and between 50% and 99% of that 75% thinks their deity is a delusion. 100% of those 75% have absolutely no verifiable proof that a deity exists. Somewhere around 50-100 million American's believe the Earth is 10,000 years old or less, though there is 0 proof that is true. Homeopathic medicine is a $400+ million/year business in America alone, even though not once has it shown to have any positive benefit. 2% of Americans, or 7,000,000 people are convinced the Earth is flat. Millions bought V.W. Golfs/Rabbits in the 80's/90's under the impression they were reliable cars. There was never any objective evidence this was true. They were even less reliable than North American cars. They were just popular. But perhaps most apt is the size of the Penis size pill enhancer market is estimated at $50-100/million per year ... and guess what, they don't do anything. You are trying to plead to authority, use "mass" rules, and any number of logical fallacies all at once. |
Nope Geoffy boy, they are perfect examples. You were using a bandwagon fallacy. 100,000 people have jumped on the fuse bandwagon, therefore it is a great idea. You are also using a blind loyalty argument and a confirmation bias with a bit of circular reasoning thrown in for good measure. My examples address all those items. $400+ million / year spent on Homeopathic and many, just like fuses, claim it works wonders. Oh, my VW Rabbit is fantastically reliable, I mean just look how many are on the road. The Homeopathy argument, like fuses, breaks down as soon as it is exposed to controlled testing. With 100,000 fuses sold, surely you can point to 3, 4, 10 controlled listening tests ... you know multiple subjects, double blind, AB or better ABX controlled? ... No? .... but you probably have a 100,000 excuses why not. Am I right? How are those penis pills working out? :-) 10-21-2019 6:06pmYour examples make no sense in the context of audio. No offense intended. In fact your examples are excellent examples of logical fallacies. |
As does the number of people following religion, mainly due to high birth rates in highly religious societies (outside the US). As does the amount spent on Homepathic remedies. As does the amount spent on penis pills. I would not be proud of this fact. geoffkait At least my estimated number of fancy fuses sold continues to go up. 🤡 |