Solo streamer

Well, I wouldn’t call the Benchmark poop.

Thanks for the list!

No not calling it poop cause it isn’t. But adding headphone capabilities and preamp section to pure DAC without any impact on the rest of the circuitry is what i was referring to…

@audphile1

Sorry if you thought I was demeaning your choices.

I wasnt

Bricasti also has a preamp by the way and it’s really good. However, it’s done right and it sounds it. 
just to compare…

DAC 3 HGC:

Bricasti M3:

Thank you.

I’d always rather have a separate preamp.  I know DAC / Preamps are hugely popular but I wonder how many are just climbing the DAC ladder and have never had a really good preamp that meshes well with all their other gear.  
 

My last two preamps were a CJ and Zesto.  System sounded thin and honestly not that great with just a DAC driving my amps.    I tried it with several DACs and put the preamp right back on the chain. 

@oddiofyl I compared the preamp in the M3 to Pass Labs XP-12 and XP-22. The M3 direct to amp is very transparent but not harsh. The only area where it lacks slightly is the soundstage depth and layering. This is where a dedicated preamp comes in. 

@oddiofyl 

The heart of my system is a vintage Conrad Johnson preamp refitted with Teflon caps by CJ.  It really makes my system work.

That Bricasti is a fine sou ding unit and the fact it can drive an Amp is appealing but I like to run all of my sources at a fixed output into a preamp .  I guess if you are all digital it makes sense ....

I'll always use an active pre

Preamp is a must in my book. I’ve not gotten the best possible results unless a preamp is in a system. I’m not saying you don’t need one. We were just talking DACs and features. 

“Although I believe my Benchmark DAC is doing a great job, just out of curiosity, what other DACs would you recommend?”

@rvpiano 

Just a thought, if your N200 is still in return period, consider swapping with A200 (with built-in DAC) and go straight into CJ :-) 

@lalitk

Hmm…. Very interesting idea. I have to think about that.
I still have about a month to decide.

@rvpiano I considered an A200 instead of N200. Then I read this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/aurender-a200-vs-n200. Dealer says A200 is like a N150 streamer sonically. Aurender also said N200 sounds better. 

Thanks,

aldnorab 

@aldnorab The N200 should be a better streamer than the streamer in the A200. These units are basically the same price and the A200 has a DAC also. They had to cut some corners. 

I would keep the purpose built streamer and add an outboard dac. Even if it’s at a later time. There’s no substitute for a good external dac unless your goal is a one box solution. 

@rvpiano I would discuss your situation and thoughts with @blisshifi who you will note posted earlier in this thread.  His experience and knowledge base is extensive.  And he seems to be more than willing to share his thoughts whether or not you are purchasing through him.      

Did someone mention the Lumin U1X or the other pure streamers?

They are excellent and used deals abound.

Also look sharp.  Sleek curved block of aluminium.

Also a very intuitive interface.

Yes, it makes sense that the N200 would sound better than the A200.

I was surprised to see that the A200 does not appear to have a digital out so it can be used with an outboard DAC as does their soon to be released lower line A1000.

Live and learn, I incorrectly assumed most streamers with built in DACs had the capability to use an outboard DAC.

@rvpiano This is an accurate assumption. The A200’s streamer is more on par with the N150, and the A15 utilizes more of what’s in the N200. I would not recommend the A200 in lieu of your DAC and N200. While there is synergy in that unit, it will not solve what you want to accomplish. 

I should have chosen better words in my first post in this thread. I spoke of your potential need to seek warmth and harmonics as I mentioned the DAC3 is very linear. I should have also mentioned that you may want to seek an extra level of refinement. There are a few areas where you may be able to find this.

First is in a more refined sounding DAC. I have long been recommending the well-regarded T+A DAC 200 to pair with the N200. It is still my DAC of choice in the $15K and under market. The DAC 200 has six different filters for  upsampling and non-oversampling that help to further shape your sound. The magnificent imaging, soundstaging enlargement, musicality, and sheer resolution of the DAC is a number of levels above your DAC3. Other DACs that may be of note are from Meitner/EMM, MSB, Aqua, Bricasti, or the DACs in Luxman’s transports. Lampizator also sounds very good, but in my experience you have to go up the chain and spend more to get the resolution that some of these other units can deliver.

Your choice of USB cable matters a lot. The 5V DC lead that runs parallel to the signal can add to the noise factor, which makes USB sound more brittle and fatiguing. It may sound financially disproportionate, but the FTA Sinope is an excellent, full-bodied, grain free and wonderfully musical USB cable. Their older Calisto is also very good and can be had for less, but it is not quite as resolving as the Sinope. Still a very good choice for its price used or new. I used FTA USB until I purchased my $6K USB cable (no need to get into those details).

There are other areas, like power cables, interconnects, Ethernet cables/switches, which can all help as well, but I would focus on the two above as they will get you furthest, and then tweak with the rest. 

@blisshifi 

Thank you so much for your detailed reply.  I don’t want to break the bank with a DAC , so it’s a difficult choice.

I know I mentioned “best under $15K”, but many of the DACs I mention make models in the $4-7K range that are worth considering. Not inexpensive as you just paid a good amount for your streamer, but it’s something to consider as you move forward in your journey.

Noting that you had a Gungnir in the past, I recently upgraded to a Merason from my Gungnir, it has been a positive experience. Also noting the comment upgrading digital cable, I just replaced my Transparent USB with a WireWorld Platinum, a very significant upgrade. I owned a Benchmark preamp, and liked it, but it might be worth sampling another DAC vendor. 

I like separate streamers and DACs for the same reasons I like separate preamps and amps.   
 

The N200 is an awesome machine , you should have no regrets     Enjoy until you can really better the Benchmark because it is a good DAC.  It will also be 2x what the DAC 3 goes for …..  Enjoy it and only replace it if you can do a home demo and it is far beyond a lateral move when you do. 

I just ordered a Shunyata USB cable that my dealer says will improve the brightness problem.  Hopefully it will and I’ll have no need for a different DAC.  

I mostly love the sound of the N200 the way it is.

@blisshifi 

Thanks for chiming in…..on a scale of 1-10, where would you rate A15 vs A200. Given @rvpiano system, I suspect he is likely to hear appreciable differences between A15 vs A200.

I have gone through 5 different models of Aurender ($2300 -$24k) over last 10 years and all streamers (transport) from N150 to N30SA are built to very high standards. I recognize the subjective nature of our hobby, no two systems are alike and then there is room acoustics and end user listening skills. My experience lead me to conclude that the differences in streamers are subtle at best and degree of separation between streamers is greatly dependent on external DAC and rest of your system. 

At OP’s price point of $2K - DAC, I believe A200 represents a great value and performance and alleviates him from the headaches of auditioning DAC’s for minimal gain, especially at his price point < $2500. 
 

@rvpiano or anyone else is free to choose the best path as there so many different ways to accomplish a good sounding streaming setup without loosing your sanity :-)

@lalitk The difference is pretty substantial, sonically. I don’t think the A200 would deliver any better than what he’s got going now. The DAC3 is a good DAC at its price point, and the N200 is a more transparent and engaging streamer than what is in the A200. 

Overall, Aurender’s analog output units (with DACs built in) are an attractive way to have a single box for digital, but being the critical listener that I am, I think there are better solutions out there to solve for what the OP wants to accomplish. The DAC in the A15 is quite good, but very linear and detailed, much like a Mola Mola Tambaqui, vs focusing on the natural harmonics and refinement that makes music emotional and tangible. This is not a criticism so much on the Aurender, as the A15 is an incredible value as a combo. It’s basically the $6,300 N200 paired with a ~$3,500 DAC. The $15K A20 is much more realistic sounding, in my opinion, as it should be given almost double the price, and I have a high affinity to that.

My suggestion would be to stay the course with the N200 and find the right digital chain to complement. I think of it as matching a phono stage to a cartridge. The N200 is a stellar source, and the DAC needs to complement the N200 in ways the rest of his system can benefit from. 

“The difference is pretty substantial, sonically.”
@blisshifi

I respectfully beg to differ. For example, the difference between N20 and N30SA were subtle at best. They were compared in my system for extended period of time with DAC’s that costing $45K and $30K respectively. These are my findings and others may disagree and that’s ok.

Staying the course (n200) and finding a competent DAC is not a viable option for @rvpiano unless he is willing to spend upwards of $5K in DAC’s. I am now going to sit back and watch OP’s journey :-)

@lalitk I agree between the N20 and N30SA but I’ve spent time with all of the analog output series DACs except for the new A1000, and I heard pretty big steps between the A200, A15, and A20. You have experience with the dedicated streamers, so likely you know the improvement of the N150 to the N200 is there, and worthwhile, whereas the jump to from the N200 to the N20 is fairly substantial, with the N20 adding richness, density, refinement etc. With the analog output series, the DAC and analog stage play a large part in the overall performance, and while synergy in the combined unit is very good across all products offered, the performance gains are notable and audible. Depending on the system it’s going in, results may vary.

I do also agree that the N200 is worthy of a DAC $5K+. This is what I mentioned at the very beginning of this thread (not the $5K, but that this may result in the search for a better DAC). I’ve seen this journey pan out so many times with my clientele, it doesn’t surprise me anymore. :)

“whereas the jump to from the N200 to the N20 is fairly substantial”
@blisshifi 

For our readers, please outline the downstream DAC and rest of the system used for this comparison. Thank you! 

If you just listen to the music, the N200 exists in pretty rarefied air.

@lalitk Most of these comparisons were completed on my reference system over the last 2-3 years, which is pretty much up to date on my virtual systems page, aside from additional accessories and tweaks that have been added since:

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11410

DACs used are primarily the T+A SDV 3100 HV and the T+A DAC 200.

With the analog output series, I tested all A200, A15, A20 and A30 all with their DACs to preamps as well as DACs as preamps going straight into the amplifier.

Other amplifiers I swap in from time to time are Cambridge Audio EDGE M monoblocks, the T+A S10 Hybrid Tube Stereo Amplifier, and the T+A R 2500 R and Aurender AP20 all in ones. I have a few others on the floor, but they don't nearly get as much play time.

I believe the DAC3 and the N200 have excellent synergy, despite the deprecating comments.

@rvpiano stay with what sounds best to you. If you don’t hear anything that bothers you, just enjoy the music. 
There’s almost always a domino effect with each upgrade. If you can mitigate thar, you’re in a good place!

@audphile1 

Thanks for that.  
‘you’re right!

@rvpiano the DAC3 must be darn good, it is letting you hear how special the Aurender N200 is. I'm interested in your thoughts on the new USB cable. I'm happy with the lowly Supra 2.0. I'll probably weaken and try their upmarket Excalibur one day. 

Thanks,

aldnorab 

Does anyone has experience with Auralic products? And possibly compare to Aurender and Innous products?

I used to have Auralic Aries G1. Never compared it with Aurender though but compared it with Lumin U1 Mini. 
Auralic sounded slightly tipped up in treble. It’s Roon ready but despite the slightly forward sound I preferred the Auralic Lightning DS over how it sounded with Roon(smoother but duller as well). It’s not a bad streamer with a nice UI that was a bit buggy. Lumin U1 Mini sounded smoother and was solid as a rock when it comes to operation. Eventually when I got the Bricasti M3 with network card I couldn’t tell the two streamers apart and sold the Lumin. 
I would rank Aurender at the top. Never tried innuos and have no idea how it sounds. Reviews are positive and owners love their innuous streamers. 

I haven’t heard the OP DAC but had some time with an earlier Benchmark DAC that I thought was fantastically detailed but bright, especially with my B&W 803D speakers.  Perhaps the upgraded streamer is bringing some of that out.

  It might be worth trying DACs from a different manufacturer but perhaps in the same price range as his current DAC

The brightness is an issue only very occasionally. I definitely don’t think it warrants a new DAC. Most of the time the balance is excellent. I’m replacing the stock USB cable with the Shunyata Gamma USB cable to remedy any remaining issues.

I owned an Aurlic Aries G2 and now several Aurrender. The Aurlic was glitchy in operation and its sound quality at its price point was not up to Aurrender’s lineup. I am constantly surprised at how good Aurrender are and they continue to improve. I have read that the new Aurlic Aries G2.2 has significantly improved sound quality, but I have not heard one. 

RV, FWIW, but as I recall, you have a Schiit Loki. A lot of 'brightness' folks seem to complain originates in the upper-mid frequencies, i.e. 1500 to 3000 hz. Mostly on sources. Your complaint seems to be (logically anyway) coming from your sources and/or the recordings).  I think your CJ may have a tape loop. If so I'd suggest that you put the Loki in the loop and when you encounter that brightness flip on the loop switch and fiddle with the 2K knob some and see if the brightness goes away. You could put the Loki between your source and preamp but that is something I'd not  do if I really loved your source. Maybe a better solution, and a lot cheaper anyway, than by shopping other sources or wires which might just bring you different problems. Good luck.

@newbee

Thanks for your suggestion and your good wishes.
I had actually forgotten about the Loki. You have a good memory. It was removed years ago because It didn’t get much use at all.
I spoke of the brightness when the Aurender was first installed. I can’t remember it happening lately at all.   The Shunyata cable should enhance the sound even more, I hope.

@rvpiano when does the new USB cable arrive? 

Tomorrow, Thursday.

Interested in your thoughts. 

Sure.  It might take a little while to break in.

The set is sounding so good this morning I can’t imagine how a cable is going to make it sound better.