I enjoy reading this thread, some very thought provoking posts here. Except for the headphone stuff, which is just dumb.
So how much do you think the placebo effect impacts our listening preferences?
My hypothesis is that for ~%97 of us, the more a headphone costs the more we will enjoy the headphone.
My secondary hypothesis is that the more I told consumers a headset cost, the more they would enjoy the phones. i.e. a $30 headphone < $300 headphone < $3,000 headphones <<< $30,000 headphones.
I’m willing to bet that if I put the kph 30i drivers in the focal utopia’s chassis and told participants in this fake study that the phones cost $4k.... Everyone except for the 3%ers would never guess something was up. The remaining 97% would have no clue and report that it was the best set they ever heard.
Then if I gave them the kph30i and explained it was $30. 97% of people would crap on them after hearing the same driver in a different chassis.
My ultimate hypothesis is that build quality and price are the two most important factors in determining if people will enjoy a set of headphones. This how I rationalize the HD8XX getting crap on when only 3 people have heard it and publicly provided their opinion lol. "It’s a cheaper 800s, of course it’s going to sound worse!"
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Anyone who does not believe in the placebo effect is fooling himself.Ha! Priceless. Didn’t know Steven Wright was a member here. Seriously though, the placebo effect is exactly why equipment reviews done without a comparison to another similar product are next to useless — yeah I’m looking squarely at you The Absolute Sound. Of course the placebo effect could still be at play even in doing product comparisons, but IMHO they go a long way toward at least mitigating it and the only reason for not doing them is pure laziness and/or a desire to crank out as many reviews as quickly as possible with little-to-no accountability for the accuracy of any assessments made therein. Really grinds my gears. |
Good example... Thanks danvignau... The placebo effect is constitutive part of any perception at some level, positively and negatively... But using it to discard audio experience is no more ridiculous than negating it and pretending to be objective in the absolute meaning of the word... Placebo effect is too serious matter for audiophile or pseudo "objectivist" alike... For the value added by pricing to the S.Q. impression, it is a too common place evidence to be contested...But also depreciating small variation of quality by invoking always placebo effect is of no help here.. Only a personal strings of continuous listening experiments free us of the complete grip of this necessary constituent part of any perception... It is only my experience .... |
Anyone who does not believe in the placebo effect is fooling himself. For me, much of the perceived effects of changes in systems from more expensive equipment can be attributed to this.
The investigators had 82 men and women rate the pain caused by electric shocks applied to their wrist, before and after taking a pill. Half the participants had read that the pill, described as a newly approved prescription pain reliever, was regularly priced at $2.50 per dose. The other half read that it had been discounted to 10 cents. In fact, both were dummy pills. Guess what happened. |
...any objective assessment of the characteristics of the product itself.But here's the problem. You can have a mental checklist of things you want the component to do, and how well it does each one of them. But the response to music is at least 50% emotional, which means that a large subjective element is going to come into the evaluation. The trick is to keep separate the emotions inspired in you by the music played by the component, and other emotions you might have about the company, the advertising, the attitude of the dealer, and a host of other factors. |
In my view, emotions are to blame for much - maybe most, maybe all - consumer decision making in ways that are largely subconscious. well said, and spot on imo |
In my view, emotions are to blame for much - maybe most, maybe all - consumer decision making in ways that are largely subconscious. The placebo effect is emotion driven. It is inevitable that decisions get made about the purchase of any and maybe all products that are driven by factors intrinsic to psychological projection of personal needs and desires as opposed to any objective assessment of the characteristics of the product itself. The task of the consumer is to keep that process to a minimum, the task of the advertiser is to inflate the process, and the placebo effect is one of his or her tools. Happy listening. theaudioatticvinylsundays.com |
@sokogear You said, ... "I can't believe you guys are arguing if speakers are better than headphones. They are DIFFERENT and do different things. I don't know anyone who prefers headphones unless they either have no decent stereo or can't play music out loud because it annoys someone." Didn't you just contradict yourself there? |
@sokogear We're not arguing about headphones or speakers. I enjoy sharing my impressions with others and learning new things as well. So many awesome posts here! @mahgister Thank you for explaining the reasoning behind the concrete slabs. While I have not seen this type of application before, I must say it's a unique way to achieve better performance. Perhaps your application is superior to a common speaker stand. (and also much more cost effective). High internal loss characteristics may also be improved by added weight (on or below the speaker). Resonance and vibration control could also be positively impacted. I can see how this would help with performance. Likewise, thank you for your posts. All the best with your system and any upgrades you make in the future...Your posts are appreciated. |
I can't believe you guys are arguing if speakers are better than headphones. They are DIFFERENT and do different things. I don't know anyone who prefers headphones unless they either have no decent stereo or can't play music out loud because it annoys someone. A very strange twist from a discussion about the placebo effect. |
Nobody should say headphones are better or worse than speakersAverage non modified headphones right out of the box and average audio systems uncontrolled and right out of the box are generally a TASTE matter... But mechanical, electrical and acoustical controls of a speakers system are not a matter of taste....This is the ONLY way to give to your audio speakers/room system superiority over most headphones if not all...I dont have soix experience about that... But based on my experiments this was the case... For sure when someone mix it is useful to listen to sound under a microscope sometimes headphones or monitor studio box... I am not an engineer who work , i am in my audio room amd i want music not perfect sounds... Have you tried listening to your speakers without the bricks on top? Does it reduce the sound quality?For sure the concrete slabs are not sold with the speakers.... 😊 The slabs and bricks are there to damp the speakers but not only that to compress the springs i use to controls vibrations/resonance problem... The 2 sets of 4 springs boxes under and on top of each speaker are asymmetrically compressed...One set by the load of concrete and speaker weight and the other set on top of the speaker by the weight of the concrete slabs only... the difference in compressing force between the 2 sets of 4 boxes springs work well to decrease resonant too powerful mode in the speaker... It is my own idea about how to use cheap springs to achieve the near same results than costly designed springs...Cost: peanuts... Results: amazingly good.... Thanks for your kind appreciation and posts.... My best to you from the heart..... |
@mahgister More power to you. It's good that you're able to appreciate your speakers over headphones. I remember at my old house I had carpet in my office which was ideal for speakers. Nobody should say headphones are better or worse than speakers. Everyone has their preferences. However, if tracking mixing/laying down a final edit are your priority, then headphones will provide great insight into a track and what needs to be fixed. If it sounds good on an accurate headphone, it will translate even better onto speakers. If we get tight bass, clear midrange, and smooth treble on a track with headphones, on speakers the result will be refined again. Have you tried listening to your speakers without the bricks on top? Does it reduce the sound quality? |
I think it's a great question. I think the best answer here, from my own experiences, is that yes indeed our subjective assessment of sound quality, especially with something we can't "blind" test like headphones, is highly affected by the appearance, feel and knowledge of the brand and price - at first - both in the short and long terms. In the short term we are impressed, or have our expectations confirmed, only to have that experience change with more listening to a specific model. Long term, with experience listening to many different things, we become better listeners and more quickly hear the things that took a long time to recognize when we first began. I'm really just repeating what others have said, but these two factors summarize what seems important to me from all of these replies: placebo effect is real but it fades, and the better you get at listening, the less you are affected by it in the first place. |
One of the biggest benefits of headphones is their immediacy in terms of sonic presentation. With headphones, you only need a fairly quite room. Each headphone will provide something unique in terms of build quality, styling, and sound signature. With headphones, you get a lot of choices. You are right saying that.... I know that a speakers/room system, and not necessarily a costly one, when rightfully embed will beat most heaphones i know of... But it is way more easy and less costly in money and time sometimes for some to create an headphone system... It takes me almost no money but hundred of listenings experiments to make my room/speakers relation right... This tuning take me a couple of years all in all and few months of intense experiments listenings with Helmholtz method of resonators and diffusers...And it is impossible to fully implement it in a living room... Someone, unlike me, could buy a very costly system and install it in a larger less difficult room than my small square room... And he will probably get good resuts with only usual acoustical materials treatments....Without using a grid of 40 Helmholtz resonators and diffusers...And others unorthodox devices... Anyway yes, it is relative to anybody taste and choice and capital disponibility , but in the absolute if my small low cost speakers system can beat my 7 headphones of all types, a costly refine speakers system will be superior and will be no match for any headphone, ESPECIALLY if vibration, electrical noise floor and acoustic are controlled....At this point it is no more taste but an acoustical fact....Soix is right about that... Between the taste and favorite choice and the ultimate fact and truth of speakers or headphones advantages there is the scale of S.Q. /price ratio and the underestimate working domensions of the audio system embeddings triple controls....It take these 3 embeddings factors together and a relatively refine system to reach the speakers/ room ideal and optimal possibilities....And for me it take a goddam period of time to tune them right... My best to all and deepest respect.... |
@cd318 Regarding the Sony MDR-M1ST ( I think every studio should own a pair ) They are neutral with detail retrieval and sonic characteristics that you would typically find in more expensive headphones. They are actually made in Japan. (They’re only about $400). As I’ve told some of my friends; the product description (intended purpose) is more important than price. Bass: Tight - well extended, but slightly warm (this can easily be tuned) Midrange: Accurate - the tonality/extension of vocals and instruments Treble: Excellent - some of the best I’ve heard on headphones Imaging: Superb - but depends on what is being played Soundstage: Well above average (almost sounds like an open design) One of the biggest benefits of headphones is their immediacy in terms of sonic presentation. With headphones, you only need a fairly quite room. Each headphone will provide something unique in terms of build quality, styling, and sound signature. With headphones, you get a lot of choices. I’m not bashing speakers or saying anything negative about them. With speakers, you have many other variables to consider (room treatments, having a good room, amps, DACs, CD players, cables, etc. Once again, to each their own. If I get a super pair of speakers/full system again, it will be when I have someone to share it with. For now, my cheapo $500 Panasonic shelf system is fine...because I’m not being hypercritical of how it sounds. I’m using it for subjective enjoyment (enjoying lyrics, emotions, favourite instruments in songs etc.) @millercarbon I think everyone probably appreciates your comment. This audio hobby should not be a competition of who has the most expensive or resolving system...yours looks great btw (the room looks epic) |
Rick and Krissy are coming in less than two weeks. For two whole years I have been bragging about having the best system in the universe. Well the known universe anyway. So their expectation bias is set sky high. Also the last year or so has established me as the foremost authority on high end audio, this side of Michael Fremer anyway, if not quite the known universe. So the placebo effect is maximized as well. This is therefore a done deal. I mean, if expectation bias and placebo effect have anything to do with anything. |
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@mastering92, "One of the most important things I've learned in life is...You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. People will do what they want. You can't stop them - even if/when you provide the most logical solutions." My experiences too. I guess the real trick is to get them to believe that whatever you're promoting is actually what THEY really want to do! In fact most of the trillions of global advertising revenue dollars spent seem to be attempting to do exactly that. Yet it often remains a difficult task as anyone who's ever tried their hand at teaching might tell you. Thanks for the tip about the Sony MDR M1ST. It looks like Sony have put some real effort into its design, so they might be ones to look out for if you want a pair of headphones that will let you hear what your recordings actually sound like. The reason the Sony MDR 7506s have been around virtually unchanged for decades because thousands of industry users have come to trust it. Even multi-million dollar film soundtracks are checked for accuracy with them. And then someone goes and adds a ton of compression....and makes it almost unlistenable. Ah well, such is life! |
Well from now on...I’m not going to respond to stupidity.No, but unfortunately for those of us here you seem intent on propagating it. Seems like the site admins are favoring youHmm. I wonder why that might be? Something to ponder fer sure. It would have been fine to simply disagree and present your own findings.Um, that’s exactly what I did. And note my post wasn’t removed because it’s based on experience, fact, and logic. You just didn’t like that I called you out on one of your outlandish assertions. You can take a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it. People will do what they want. You can’t stop them - even if/when you provide the most logical solutions.No, but I can provide information that hopefully helps a horse recognize and not drink toxic water. I feel good about that even if some horses decide to drink it anyway. Case in point @troidelover1499 above — score one for logic and experience. Listen to honest folks like maghister; you may learn something new.Yeah, he pretty much agrees with me and is trying his best to do it politely. Pity you don’t recognize that but not at all surprising. That toxic water does funny things to the brain. But even he has his limits and finally felt the need to hit you over the head directly to figure it out... My own limited experience and experiments confirmed that generally speakers/room rightfully controlled exceed any headphones...Are we done here? |
Like I said before, loudspeakers and headphones are different PRESENTATIONS. It's not a matter of some people like vanilla and some people like chocolate. The comparison is more of some people like ice cream and some people like brownies. The question is, what type of dessert do you prefer? Okay, that was a very corny example but just trying to make a point that people have different needs when listening to high end. |
I have read this discussion with some interest as I am considering upgrading headphones from my older Beyerdynamics model fairly soon, and I must say, @soix seems to be pretty much on the mark with his comments, which are more even handed and also in line with my own experiences with headphones versus proper loudspeaker driven in room stereo systems. |
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It is not necessary to create wars.... Most people even with top headphones or top speakers and top electronics have no idea what their audio system can optimally do when rightfully controlled... The reason is simple : embeddings working dimensions controls...Mechanical, electrical but ESPECIALLY acoustical... Most people who own a small square room or with an imbalanced acoustic, geometrically, topologically or in acoustical content, dont know how to treat the room.... And when they know they think about the usual PASSIVE material treatment mainly.... But for small room with acoustic imbalance, passive treatment will not be enough nor optimal... Adressing the speakers/room by activation of the relation between speakers and room with Helhmotz resonators AND diffusers will complete the job of the usual passive treatment and put it on another level...(there exist also secondary unorthodox means i will not describe here to not create useless debates) A room is not a set of passive walls waiting the sound waves to bounce on them ( this image validity is linked to Hall or theater big space).... Most people had this image... A small room by contrast is more a dynamical organism which metabolism is constituted by small pressures zones of different densities living in TIME not only in space....And Helmholtz resonators and diffusers are NEW CELLS added to this organism controlled by your EARS, helped if you want by some measuring apparatus... But a room COULD be TUNED like a piano can be tuned by human ears.... Room relatively large could be well tamed sometimes or seems to be so with only usual passive treatment BUT to optimalize the speakers/room relation i think Helmholtz resonators and diffusers grid will increase big time all acoustic experience factors... An audio room ideally cannot be a living room.... Sorry.....my audio room cannot be recreated in a living room... But some aspects can be used in a living room.... It is not necessary to install a grid of 40 Helmhotz resonators and diffusers like me to obtain very good results.... Very precise small sets of resonators and aesthetically designed can do ( i am not crafty )....I use sometimes "toilet paper rolls" but you can use more sexy material for a living room.... Anyway acoustic ratio sometimes dont give a damn about the specific material save for their acoustic properties....Use what you want if the acoustic ratio is right... By the way i am not an acoustician, nor an audio pro, only an average dude with no money who decided one day to create his own audio system at peanuts costs if necessary because i could not afford costly gear i was dreaming about anyway.... You dont have to believe me.... Only to think about some simple concepts and experiences i suggest at no cost or very low cost... Thats all... We are here to partake concepts and experiences first, opinions second, and politely argue about.... I am not interested to prove anything, only that one dude exist here that is not impress by costly marketting of electronic pieces hype upgrading obsession, why? (Not because a better electronic gear is useless, if i could i woul buy better audio system....But my 500 bucks one is relatively very satisfying now....) Then why? Because if Acoustic science is the sleeping princess, and any tweak or piece of gear are one the 7 working dwarves, guess who is the prince ? You own creativity is the prince.... Trust yourself.... |
Oh man, Reddit needs you. They love inexperienced, ignorant, overconfident people over there. And since professors don’t answer to principals, I’ll just stay right here thanks. I’ve seen your other posts, and if you continue shamelessly flaunting your ignorance here, believe me I won’t be the only one calling you out. Reddit is your friend — it’s a much better fit for you. |
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I never said headphones equal the performance of loudspeakers directly.Ha. Impressive retort. Nice lame attempt a a dodge, and that’s true. Indirectly. You implied headphones were better, except for the bass. If anything, you are bringing confusion to an otherwise intellectually honest discussion.No, I’m actually bringing some clarity for people who might not know better. And there’s nothing intellectually (or sonically) honest to what you stated. If anyone is directed to the wrong information, that is not your responsibility.Well, neither is it yours to overconfidently state misleading things about something you clearly know little about. Maybe we’re even then, eh? Here endeth the lesson. |
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What a waste of time for you to have written all of that. At least you made a keyboard happy. I never tell others they are wrong about anything. I may offer a unique answer or solution, but that’s it. Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and opinions. It’s a free country. Pushing others to believe that only your views are correct makes you less credible. I’ve known people who owned celebrity headphones that were made of cheap plastic and sounded terrible. What did I do when they asked me what I thought?! I simply said to them - if you enjoy them, that’s what matters. I said that personally, they are not headphones I would use; but to each their own. I never said headphones equal the performance of loudspeakers directly. If anything, you are bringing confusion to an otherwise intellectually honest discussion. People who know what they are talking about don’t have anything to prove to others; much less a community of strangers on an online forum. If anyone is directed to the wrong information, that is not your responsibility. This is not a classroom. These folks are not your students. Can we turn to page 999 now? |
Ok Sparky, I’ll bite... So you’re saying that no single headphone in the world can sound like a speaker? For example, have superb imaging and soundstaging capabilities?Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Headphones have imaging and soundstage within their considerable limits but in no way compare to the large 3D soundscape that can be created by a home system. Period. Have you heard headphones that cost more than $20? Are you limited to your local Walmart for audio needs?Again, yeah. Top level Audeze, Hifiman, Stax, etc. Best I’ve heard by a good margin were the Raal SR1a, but even those I wouldn’t put at more than 30% of what a good home system can do. It’s a scale thing. Have you actually worked with professional studio monitors that cost as much as your house?Well, I used to sell ATC speakers and thought pretty highly of active 150s, but even the 50s were pretty damn impressive. I do have experience hearing top models from Wilson, Magico, Rockport, YG, Nola, VonSchweikert, Martin Logan, and many others. Most of these systems were well north of $300k, which would buy a decent house most places but not where I live outside NYC. Best I ever heard was Nola Grand Reference driven by top Audio Research electronics spinning vinyl on a hideously expensive turntable that I can’t recall. Headphones, even really good ones, can’t come close to reproducing the majesty and scale that (or most) good systems are capable of. I don’t know...but the funny thing is you are so deeply concerned about someone else’s viewpoints...you really need to get a life.Truth is I couldn’t give a crap about your ridiculously uninformed opinion until you called out another highly experienced and respected member on this site. What I do care about is when someone comes here and spews out misleading garbage that someone who’s learning and doesn’t know better might actually believe. Those things I tend to call out because they’re foolish statements that do a disservice to others here. I suggest you take your head out of your ‘phones and spend some time listening to some good home systems so you don’t barf out anymore stupid crap like “Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room.” Clueless. Absolutely clueless. |
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@mahgister you make statements about your system regarding the placement and the presentation you get and how headphones cannot compare. If it’s the same system I saw in your picture, how on Earth do you get a sense of space or depth or width or imaging, sound staging, etc. I’m not trying to start an argument or be mean I simply don’t understand how you can get that effect with your speakers being where they are.You are perfectly right.... Now i can understand what your sarcasm was hiding ....I apologize to you because i could be rude if someone seems to mock me...I am human.... Yes it is impossible to reach a good level of depth imaging and listener involvement in my square room 13 feet 1/2 with speakers on desk and one in one of the corner of the room, creating an imbalance in the imaging... BUT....... Acoustic material treatment rightfully done, and more than that a grid of rightfully located Helmholtz resonators which are finely tuned to the speakers/room relation, and which some are located at critical spots, or near each driver speakers in an symmetrical way, COULD create all the S.Q. imaging, soundstage, and more important natural timbre experience and listener inclusion in the music stage with some good recordings... I succeed in making the walls of my room being friends and no more foes.... I create 40 Helmholtz resonators of different size mechanically adjustable in length, orientation, and size to do it....At no cost....Even with empty toilet paper roll... 😊 When i listen music i listen the sound and dont look at my silly room in the dark.... All my posts here are there to promote creativity at no cost not bragging about my piece of gear which are only average but very good for their price..... No headphones i own and no system i listen to make me desesperate about my actual S.Q. in my room.... that speak volume....It is not the best but...... I live very well with it..... Acoustic is the queen, and all others pieces of gear and tweaks are the 7 working dwarves.... |
@mahgister you make statements about your system regarding the placement and the presentation you get and how headphones cannot compare. If it's the same system I saw in your picture, how on Earth do you get a sense of space or depth or width or imaging, sound staging, etc. I'm not trying to start an argument or be mean I simply don't understand how you can get that effect with your speakers being where they are. |
One other point - if you know something is better sounding than something else, by recommendation of someone you trust or universal acceptance, sometimes I'll just go for it knowing it is better. For example, I was told by Ron (Martin) Sutherland himself of the Phono Stage company and creator of Martin Logan several decades ago, that my phono stage would sound better with a linear power supply versus the switched one provided as standard. He had just started offering the upgrade of his trickle down technology from a phono stage costing 2.5 times as much as mine. It was a little less than half of what I got the phono stage for, but he said if it was his brother in law, he would tell him to do it, so I just did it. He even helped me install it so I wouldn't have to pay 2 way shipping to Kansas. Could I tell afterwards? Not specifically, but I had also recently upgraded the interconnect from the PS to the amp, but sometimes knowing it is better sounding gives you peace of mind even if you didn't prove it specifically for yourself. Perfect example - rollerblocks isolate components and also transfer vibration out of them. Inside them are ball bearings of certain specifications that make the box float. The new base level (formerly one top from the base) has 10 parts per million of imperfection in the shape/quality of it, and the highest level one, called a "super ball" (I kid you not), has 2.5 ppm, or a 75% reduction in imperfections. The cost of this upgrade is equal to the entire cost of the base rollerblocks with (the newly upgraded) standard bearings. Some people will buy the super balls based on the owner's recommendation knowing they are the best and have that peace of mind. Bear in mind that the previous improvement to the 10 ppm was down from 60 ppm, or an 83% improvement. Talk about the law of diminishing returns....This is the epitome of it, but he sells a ton of them for those who want the absolute best, and if I spent triple on my stereo, I would probably get them. The owner did not recommend them to me based on my system, so he understands how high resolving a system you need to hear or appreciate the improvement. This is the case with fuses, power cords, etc. |
IMHO the placebo effect happens more for subtle possible improvements than big ones. When something hits you obviously when you listen for the first time, that is when you know you have something. Unfortunately (or fortunately) many changes happen, many records get played, and it is very hard to know what or how much happened when. Also, it is very hard to remember how something used to sound. |
Have you ever worked in studios, with audio professionals, or even spoken to industry leaders? for those who don’t know, @soix has been in and around the high end hifi industry for many many years, in fact wrote professional equipment reviews, has terrific ears, thus has broad and deep experience and knowledge in this field, and actively shares it with other users seeking guidance on this board just sayin... @soix doesn't call out others' statements often, nor whimsically, and when he does, most readers here take notice |
I am not averse (see, didn't include anyone else in my pronouncement) to finding those quality pieces for less money; sometimes it pans out, most times I realize that something is not quite right for whatever reason, and I am ultimately dissatisfied with it. SO you need to look yourself in the eye and be honest with what kind of person type are you - the kind who listens for yourself and can be happy with a "good deal" or "giant killer", the kind who says "It's got to cost $$ or it's no good", or possibly "I can't tell the difference between A and B, but if so-and-so says it's good, that's good enough for me". You will save yourself a lot of time and money and heartache in acknowledging what type you are. Coming from a musical background, I would initially buy a cheaper model guitar and tell myself that it was just as good as the more expensive model but then spend lots of money and time upgrading parts, and still ending up getting rid of that guitar and buying what I really wanted in the first place. I now try to catch myself before I go buy the "Junior" version of something and ultimately spend more money in the long run. Understanding that sometimes you just can't swing (insert appropriate amount of money here) right now but if the one you really want isn't too too far out of reach, hold off until you can get it (maybe used). |
I am very tired of the use of "placebo effects" by some... The most powerful placebo effects in audio threads are induced by costly gear upgrades debate and marketing... Not so much in a strings of hundred ongoing CUMULATIVE listenings experiments for a long time period with the same gear....My case....Placebo plays in my case also but not so much only and always in the same singular negative way .... Placebo dont explain mechanical, acoustical electrical noise floor controls by itself only, by the way.... And placebos effects are not only negative"illusions" to eradicate, they can be linked to LEARNED positive biases, like a direction of flow in a road...It is a COMPLEX concept.... If the complexity of ANY concept exceed your processing brain dont use it to insult in a free manner all a category of people indiscriminately... Thanks.... |
Yes, the truth might well be out there, but finding it seems to be quite another matter.The Audio Circle of Confusion is a very useful concept... thanks to cd318 for the short useful article.... It only confirm my point about the supremum importance of the acoustical embeddings controls over almost anything and even more powerful than the completely underestimated mechanical and electrical noise floor control...( in my limited experience) We must begin somewhere and we will not change the general situation in recordings industry in the near time to come ... We must begin with our audio room and then we will cease to buy bad recordings...... For the headphones debate the discussion is impossible because people like what they already own like i was in love with my headphones : I never said that headphones are bad and not audiophile matters...I say that i dont feel the need to use them at all anymore and i try to explain why.... Second i said that the atmosphere and acoustial potential settings of a room so complex they are, contrary to the FIXED limitations of shells and drivers of any headphones, can be modified MORE EASILY than an headphone shells, like some "acoustical clay", with PASSIVE usual materials treatment and ACTIVE Helmholtz resonators controls and others complementary unorthodox ways....I never said that acoustical treatment and controls are easy to made.... I ONLY said that it will not need to cost big money at all to do it ... i did it at peanuts cost then😊..... Then almost no headphones can give you what a "relatively well chosen" speakers/room will give after some acoustical modifications...But YES it is way more easy to use a good headphone than transforming the speakers/room relation....It is way more easy to buy costly gear than studying,listening,experimenting and creating your own solution...I did it not because i was clever than anybody here.... I did it because i was dreaming audiophiles dreams WITHOUT the money to BUY them... Any man is resourceful in adversity or he die....I was.... No need to use sarcasm or insult.... Little Brain work is enough and experiments... If someone disagree with what i just said , it is simply that his room/speakers are uncontrolled, or his choice of speakers underpar, or the two.... Am i deaf to think that i prefer now my room/speakers to my 7 headphones? In the beginning with the same speakers it was the complete opposite... I begins my audio journey modding my headphones and refining them....I quit the headphone forums when i begin to adress mechanical, electrical and acoustical working embedding dimensions of my system/room and i come here.... The only change in my last 2 years are the fine tuning of my acoustical controls and also mechanical more effective vibrations controls ....Nothing else.... Same dac, same amplifier, same speakers .... I will not pay 10,000 bucks for a better headphone system than my last 7 one.....I dont fell this need no more.... « For simpleton coins had only 2 opposing sides , which they flip, after loading them on one side, 😁 ignoring that it is a "revealing" third dimensional object»-Groucho Marx 🤓 |
Okay @soix Read all of this carefully before replying... The problem with folks who tend to disagree with others on this site is... 1) they are too opinionated (and easily offended) 2) they don't provide any backing to their claims (believe they have all the answers) 3) they don't understand how to have an honest discussion (ramblings, going off topic, etc. like a high school student) So we disagree about something. WONDERFUL. Nothing is going to change in real life for either of us. So you're saying that no single headphone in the world can sound like a speaker? For example, have superb imaging and soundstaging capabilities? Have you heard headphones that cost more than $20? Are you limited to your local Walmart for audio needs? Have you actually worked with professional studio monitors that cost as much as your house? Have you ever worked in studios, with audio professionals, or even spoken to industry leaders? 🤔 I don't know...but the funny thing is you are so deeply concerned about someone else's viewpoints...you really need to get a life. |
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Headphones and speakers are just different. In terms of raw performance (value for the money) headphones are going to outclass speakers. Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room.What site do you think you’re on? This is not a Reddit or head-fi thread. Do you even know how ridiculous this sounds? Have you even heard a well-constructed, high-end audio system, or have you just listened to headphones your whole life? — because that’s sure what this sounds like. Really good headphones at their best sound sound like a good audio system in a really, really small room. And no headphones can come close to everything a high-end audio system can provide. Case in point — I can assess 100% of the quality of a recording on a good home system whereas I’m limited to about 80% with headphones. Soundstage size, depth and dimension, spatial cues, image placement, etc. are all laid bare in a good home system yet merely hinted at relatively with headphones. So if you think the only place speakers win is with bass you have no idea of what you’re talking about or missing. |
