So how much do you think the placebo effect impacts our listening preferences?

Good example...

Thanks danvignau...

The placebo effect is constitutive part of any perception at some level, positively and negatively...

But using it to discard audio experience is no more ridiculous than  negating it and pretending to be objective in the absolute meaning of the word...

Placebo effect is too serious matter for audiophile or pseudo "objectivist"  alike...

For the value added by pricing to the S.Q. impression, it is a too common place evidence to be contested...But also depreciating small variation of quality by invoking always placebo effect is of no help here..

Only a personal strings of continuous listening experiments free us of the complete grip of  this necessary constituent part of any perception...

It is only my experience ....

Nobody should say headphones are better or worse than speakers

Average non modified headphones right out of the box and average audio systems uncontrolled and right out of the box are generally a TASTE matter...

But mechanical, electrical and acoustical controls of a speakers system are not a matter of taste....This is the ONLY way to give to your audio speakers/room system superiority over most headphones if not all...I dont have soix experience about that... But based on my experiments this was the case...

For sure when someone mix it is useful to listen to sound under a microscope sometimes headphones or monitor studio box...

I am not an engineer who work , i am in my audio room amd i want music not perfect sounds...

Have you tried listening to your speakers without the bricks on top? Does it reduce the sound quality?

For sure the concrete slabs are not sold with the speakers.... 😊

The slabs and bricks are there to damp the speakers but not only that to compress the springs i use to controls vibrations/resonance problem... The 2 sets of 4 springs boxes under and on top of each speaker are asymmetrically compressed...One set by the load of concrete and speaker weight and the other set on top of the speaker by the weight of the concrete slabs only... the difference in compressing force between the 2 sets of 4 boxes springs  work well to decrease resonant  too powerful mode in the speaker...

It is my own idea about how to use cheap springs to achieve the near same results than costly designed springs...Cost: peanuts... Results: amazingly good....

Thanks for your kind appreciation and posts....

My best to you from the heart.....

 placebo effect is real but it fades, and the better you get at listening, the less you are affected by it in the first place.

Thanks for saying better than me what i tried to comnmunicate in a less short and clear way or style...

My deepest respect....

One of the biggest benefits of headphones is their immediacy in terms of sonic presentation. With headphones, you only need a fairly quite room. Each headphone will provide something unique in terms of build quality, styling, and sound signature. With headphones, you get a lot of choices.

I’m not bashing speakers or saying anything negative about them. With speakers, you have many other variables to consider (room treatments, having a good room, amps, DACs, CD players, cables, etc.

You are right saying that....



I know that a speakers/room system, and not necessarily a costly one, when rightfully embed will beat most heaphones i know of...

But it is way more easy and less costly in money and time sometimes for some to create an headphone system...

It takes me almost no money but hundred of listenings experiments to make my room/speakers relation right...

This tuning take me a couple of years all in all and few months of intense experiments listenings with Helmholtz method of resonators and diffusers...And it is impossible to fully implement it in a living room...

Someone, unlike me, could buy a very costly system and install it in a larger less difficult room than my small square room... And he will probably get good resuts with only usual acoustical materials treatments....Without using a grid of 40 Helmholtz resonators and diffusers...And others unorthodox devices...

Anyway yes, it is relative to anybody taste and choice and capital disponibility , but in the absolute if my small low cost speakers system can beat my 7 headphones of all types, a costly refine speakers system will be superior and will be no match for any headphone, ESPECIALLY if vibration, electrical noise floor and acoustic are controlled....At this point it is no more taste but an acoustical fact....Soix is right about that...

Between the taste and favorite choice and the ultimate fact and truth of speakers or headphones advantages there is the scale of S.Q. /price ratio and the underestimate working domensions of the audio system embeddings triple controls....It take these 3 embeddings factors together and a relatively refine system to reach the speakers/ room ideal and optimal possibilities....And for me it take a goddam period of time to tune them right...

My best to all and deepest respect....

My own limited experience and experiments confirmed that generally speakers/room rightfully controlled exceed any headphones...

It is not necessary to create wars....

Most people even with top headphones or top speakers and top electronics have no idea what their audio system can optimally do when rightfully controlled...

The reason is simple : embeddings working dimensions controls...Mechanical, electrical but ESPECIALLY acoustical...

Most people who own a small square room or with an imbalanced acoustic, geometrically, topologically or in acoustical content, dont know how to treat the room.... And when they know they think about the usual PASSIVE material treatment mainly.... But for small room with acoustic imbalance, passive treatment will not be enough nor optimal... Adressing the speakers/room by activation of the relation between speakers and room with Helhmotz resonators AND diffusers will complete the job of the usual passive treatment and put it on another level...(there exist also secondary unorthodox means i will not describe here to not create useless debates)

A room is not a set of passive walls waiting the sound waves to bounce on them ( this image validity is linked to Hall or theater big space).... Most people had this image... A small room by contrast is more a dynamical organism which metabolism is constituted by small pressures zones of different densities living in TIME not only in space....And Helmholtz resonators and diffusers are NEW CELLS added to this organism controlled by your EARS, helped if you want by some measuring apparatus... But a room COULD be TUNED like a piano can be tuned by human ears....

Room relatively large could be well tamed sometimes or seems to be so with only usual passive treatment BUT to optimalize the speakers/room relation i think Helmholtz resonators and diffusers grid will increase big time all acoustic experience factors...

An audio room ideally cannot be a living room.... Sorry.....my audio room cannot be recreated in a living room... But some aspects can be used in a living room.... It is not necessary to install a grid of 40 Helmhotz resonators and diffusers like me to obtain very good results.... Very precise small sets of resonators and aesthetically designed can do ( i am not crafty )....I use sometimes "toilet paper rolls" but you can use more sexy material for a living room.... Anyway acoustic ratio sometimes dont give a damn about the specific material save for their acoustic properties....Use what you want if the acoustic ratio is right...


By the way i am not an acoustician, nor an audio pro, only an average dude with no money who decided one day to create his own audio system at peanuts costs if necessary because i could not afford costly gear i was dreaming about anyway....

You dont have to believe me.... Only to think about some simple concepts and experiences i suggest at no cost or very low cost... Thats all...

We are here to partake concepts and experiences first, opinions second, and politely argue about....






I am not interested to prove anything, only that one dude exist here that is not impress by costly marketting of electronic pieces hype upgrading obsession, why? (Not because a better electronic gear is useless, if i could i woul buy better audio system....But my 500 bucks one is relatively very satisfying now....) Then why?

Because if Acoustic science is the sleeping princess, and any tweak or piece of gear are one the 7 working dwarves, guess who is the prince ?

You own creativity is the prince....

Trust yourself....

@mahgister you make statements about your system regarding the placement and the presentation you get and how headphones cannot compare. If it’s the same system I saw in your picture, how on Earth do you get a sense of space or depth or width or imaging, sound staging, etc. I’m not trying to start an argument or be mean I simply don’t understand how you can get that effect with your speakers being where they are.

You are perfectly right....

Now i can understand what your sarcasm was hiding ....I apologize to you because i could be rude if someone seems to mock me...I am human....


Yes it is impossible to reach a good level of depth imaging and listener involvement in my square room 13 feet 1/2 with speakers on desk and one in one of the corner of the room, creating an imbalance in the imaging...

BUT.......

Acoustic material treatment rightfully done, and more than that a grid of rightfully located Helmholtz resonators which are finely tuned to the speakers/room relation, and which some are located at critical spots, or near each driver speakers in an symmetrical way, COULD create all the S.Q. imaging, soundstage, and more important natural timbre experience and listener inclusion in the music stage  with some good recordings... I succeed in making the walls of my room being friends and no more foes....

I create 40 Helmholtz resonators of different size mechanically adjustable in length, orientation, and size to do it....At no cost....Even with empty toilet paper roll... 😊



When i listen music i listen the sound and dont look at my silly room in the dark....

All my posts here are there to promote creativity at no cost not bragging about my piece of gear which are only average but  very good for their price.....

No headphones i own and no system i listen to make me desesperate about my actual S.Q. in my room.... that speak volume....It is not the best but......

I live very well with it.....

Acoustic is the queen, and all others pieces of gear and tweaks are the 7 working dwarves....

I am very tired of the use of "placebo effects" by some...

The most powerful placebo effects in audio threads are induced by costly gear upgrades debate and marketing...

Not so much in a strings of hundred ongoing CUMULATIVE listenings experiments for a long time period with the same gear....My case....Placebo plays in my case also but not so much  only and always in the same  singular negative way ....

Placebo dont explain mechanical, acoustical electrical noise floor controls by itself only, by the way....

And placebos effects are not only negative"illusions" to eradicate, they can be linked to LEARNED positive biases, like a direction of flow in a road...It is a COMPLEX concept....

If the complexity of ANY concept exceed your processing brain dont use it to insult in a free manner all a category of people indiscriminately...

Thanks....

Yes, the truth might well be out there, but finding it seems to be quite another matter.
https://www.soundonsound.com/mastering
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html?m=1

The Audio Circle of Confusion is a very useful concept...
 thanks to cd318 for the short useful article....

It only confirm my point about the supremum importance of the acoustical embeddings controls over almost anything and even more powerful than the completely underestimated mechanical and electrical noise floor control...( in my limited experience)

We must begin somewhere and we will not change the general situation in recordings industry in the near time to come ... We must begin with our audio room and then we will cease to buy bad recordings......






For the headphones debate the discussion is impossible because people like what they already own like i was in love with my headphones :

I never said that headphones are bad and not audiophile matters...I say that i dont feel the need to use them at all anymore and i try to explain why....

Second i said that the atmosphere and acoustial potential settings of a room so complex they are, contrary to the FIXED limitations of shells and drivers of any headphones, can be modified MORE EASILY than an headphone shells, like some "acoustical clay", with PASSIVE usual materials treatment and ACTIVE Helmholtz resonators controls and others complementary unorthodox ways....I never said that acoustical treatment and controls are easy to made.... I ONLY said that it will not need to cost big money at all to do it ... i did it at peanuts cost then😊.....

Then almost no headphones can give you what a "relatively well chosen" speakers/room will give after some acoustical modifications...But YES it is way more easy to use a good headphone than transforming the speakers/room relation....It is way more easy to buy costly gear than studying,listening,experimenting and creating your own solution...I did it not because i was clever than anybody here.... I did it because i was dreaming audiophiles dreams WITHOUT the money to BUY them... Any man is resourceful in adversity or he die....I was....

No need to use sarcasm or insult.... Little Brain work is enough and experiments...

If someone disagree with what i just said , it is simply that his room/speakers are uncontrolled, or his choice of speakers underpar, or the two....






Am i deaf to think that i prefer now my room/speakers to my 7 headphones?

In the beginning with the same speakers it was the complete opposite... I begins my audio journey modding my headphones and refining them....I quit the headphone forums when i begin to adress mechanical, electrical and acoustical working embedding dimensions of my system/room and i come here....

The only change in my last 2 years are the fine tuning of my acoustical controls and also mechanical more effective vibrations controls ....Nothing else.... Same dac, same amplifier, same speakers ....

I will not pay 10,000 bucks for a better headphone system than my last 7 one.....I dont fell this need no more....





« For simpleton coins had only 2 opposing sides , which they flip, after loading them on one side, 😁 ignoring that it is a "revealing" third dimensional object»-Groucho Marx 🤓

@mahgister I just looked at your system.
I need to start buying stock in tin foil.

Dont kill my message with an underlining of superficial appearance...

I can create a very powerful Helmholtz resonators grid with discarded toilet paper rolls...i did in fact...

Acoustic dont need costly materials but knowledge and ratios and experiments...Same thing for mechanical vibrations controls....You can buy many thousands bucks products or create something equivalent almost at very low cost...I did it with cheap materials but no tin foil...

I dont let myself to be fooled by advertising of costly products now...

And keep your free mockery....

The last smile is for me....

My system cost is bananas my friend....And my Sound quality/price ratio exceed or rival yours probably at no cost then....

i will keep my tin foil....Keep your headphones...

By the way i presented facts and arguments politely to you in my last posts, i never attack you.... I dont like to be answered by FREE mockery...


« Sarcasm is sometimes a compensation for some dysfunctional physiological apparatus, the brain or some appendage, pick your choice»- Groucho Marx 🤓

@mahgister loudspeaker systems give a different presentation than headphone systems. I don’t believe that one, regardless of equipment used or set up, is it necessarily better or worse than the other. Like I said, they are different presentations altogether.

Headphones and speakers present sounds with different results for sure...

Like our friend mastering92 just said:

However, the 6db rule applies whereby headphones cannot perfectly recreate bass frequencies due to the limited size and mass of their respective transducers. However, textural resolve, attack, decay, and the overall styling of the bass is far more important (and they can do each of these things well). Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room.

But it is NOT only about the superior rendrering of bass frequencies...

In a room you can mimic the 3 dimension spatiality of the sound...

None of my 7 headphones never did it like my room/speakers...

In acoustic there is a concept which is very important:

The relation between the "listener envelopment" (LEV) and the "source width" (ASW)...

the relation between these 2 factors is related to the timing of back and front reflections and the general ratio of their timing in relation to side direction...

Also we can acoustically control with Helmholtz resonators of different size the first frontwaves coming from each speakers and differentiate them for each ears....

Only these factors i just mentioned are impossible to control with headphones drivers and shell limitations and size...

This is the reason why they all sound "artificial" in relation to a good speakers/room settings.... Not only the bass....but we dont perceive it to be artificial if we compare them to a non controlled speakers/room system for sure... on the contrary 8 years ago i weas convinced that my speakers will never beat a good headphone...


And the point where headphones seems to  crush my speakers/room could be some details.... BUT details without 3D immersion in a space volume and only in a 2D space are unrealalistic and unnatural and without life compared to the room/speakers...


I was in love with my 2 Stax Headphone system, the Sr5 and the Lambda.... My hybrid was very good .... But ALL my headphones were different and each one were lacking on a factor or an another one relatively and compared to the other headphones....

My room/speakers under controls never give me a detail without the whole....nor a 2D sound  only in front of my head or  only between my ears....

My room/speakers, in relation with the recording quality i use for sure, give me a sound where i am among the players or where some players are beside me and not in front or behind the speakers only or only between them...( it is relative to the recording initial process a bad recording cannot deliver that for sure to begin with)

My speakers/room as imperfect as it is now, is SUPERIOR on all counts... Because each factor is LINKED to the others in a BALANCED  way which none of my headphones were ever able to delivers...

Then the apparent more detailed presentation of some aspects of the sound, which 8 years ago convince me of the superiority of headphones, was only a manifestation of the defect of my room/speakers settings at this time....In a non controlled room, headphones, any of them, are more detailed or seems to be...But they never are more livelier than a good speakers/room system...

And the Timbre experience is unnatural in most headphones anyway compared to a room/speakers rightly done because of the limitations of their enclosure and drivers...


I am not a scientist and even not an audio mature expert...

But i have my own journey....

A 500 bucks system can be more than good.... If each piece is well chosen and if the three working dimensional embeddings, mechanical, electrical and acoustical are minimally controlled....

No system i had listen to in my life even better one than mine completely crush mine....

The reason: a balance between all acoustical factors in play are realized.... Then i am behind all superior costly audio systems but way less behind than people could imagine, even me....


In audio my system is  very good in the scale price/sound quality ratio....

After all when the piano is in my room in 3D not behind or between the speakers with a good recording what i can ask for more?

A more perfect system will cost me between 12,000 and 16,000 bucks...I know what i could buy to beat each single piece of my gear.... The speakers cost is the more difficult choice by the way...

I dont need it.... I prefer to surprize my children with my 500 bucks incredible system...






I forgot an important point...

My room /speakers system give me 2 different experiences...

One is more like an headphone listening but 3D with sounds coming sometimes around my head ... The near listening field at 3 feet of my speakers on my desk...

The regular position in my small room of 13 feet 1/2 square is at 8 feet from the speakers....And there the sound is more realistic and seems a bit less detailed but it is an illusion...The details are there but more realistically linked to the whole of the sound...


In near listening field All my headphones are crushed on all counts...

In regular listening fields the apparent lack of details is an illusion, the details are there but in a more natural way ... Here regular listening position my speakers dont beat the headphones on each of the acoustical count to be compared like in near listening position, they introduce a completely new sound presentation that none of my headphones were able to do deliver....


 Also bear in mind that a SMALL room is not a big room....And the controls of a small room is more difficult but can deliver possibilities  less easy to reach and way more costly to reach  in a 20 feet room...It is linked to the timing ratio of the wavefront of each speakers and the reverberation time which we can use more easily in a small room...

Headphones = less headache. I understand that you can doctor and Taylor the sound to your liking when you deal with a loudspeaker system with room acoustics and speaker placement and swapping cables, etc.
However, the money required to get it right is vastly greater than the money spent on a good headphone system.

You are wrong...

Acoustic is a science   and it is not NECESSARY to buy costly acoustical product AT ALL....My own acoustical treatment and devices for acoustical controls cost me long time experiments but no money...

You are right about one thing it is simpler to use headphone than upgrading toward costly gear each year hoping to replace acoustical control, mechanical control and electrical noise floor control with new gear and always ending inevitably in  frustration because we dont know that no system can be good in a bad room in an uncontrolled vibrating location and in a noisy electrical grid...


But if you had read me my 500 bucks audio system beat my 7 various headphones... the reason is embeddings controls of my system at NO COST....

Then if people chase their tail it is because most people are conditioned by the marketing ploy to upgrade and not informed on acoustic nor on simple science...


 I apologize if my post seems rude...

My best to you....

He is no more wrong that those who think that all audiophile impressions are pure subjectives impressions to be eliminated...

Reality is more complex than what those who argue here one against the others think...

I never negate myself the pervasing presence of biases positive or negative one, biases to be eliminated and biases to be cultivated...

I never put all the eggs of my audio basket in the engineering design upgrade market either.... i looked for ways to embed any system with science at hand or in some cases without any science available to me, but only my ears, in strings of CUMULATIVE listening experiments...

Call that an audio journey...

Then i prefer Millercarbon "alleged" ignorance to the "alleged" knowledgeable believer in engineering design power only, with their systematic blindtests, they never used anyway save in shows and arguments...

I dont need systematic blind test to tune my room nor to eliminate vibrations and to control the electrical noise floor...Simple informal occasional accidental or implemented blindtest of my own will do it....At no cost....

The room/speaker factor is the single most difficult thing in a loudspeaker system to get correct. Room dimensions, reflection points, nulls, etc. This is the single greatest headache of getting a loudspeaker system correct, in my opinion.
With headphones, you don’t have to worry about any of that.

Please clarify because I’m having a hard time trying to make heads or tails of what you said.

You are right the room/speakers is the most difficult thing to get corrected FOR SURE....

BUT when you start with an empty room the road is LONG and the POSSIBILITIES in acoustic controls HUGE...

Then the difference between your room BEFORE acoustic treatment and controls and AFTER it, is nothing less than COLOSSAL....If rightly done and remember that passive treatment in general dont replace active control with Helmholtz method....


When you buy an headphone if you mod it, damp it, anyway possible the difference between before and after are relatively big sometimes NEVER colossal... Because you are stuck with the acoustical properties of the shell chosen by the designer...


The room enclosure by contrast is malleable like an acoustical clay.... Give me a room i will recreate it at no cost....I know how now...

my headphones i modded all of them the seven with success....But no comparison between them and the COLOSSAL potential of the speakers/room SQ...They all sleep in my drawer now... 2 dynamic 2 electroacoustic, 2 magneplanar, one hybrid...I begin my audio journey 8 years ago or 9  with many headphones because i was flabbergasted by the improvement in S.Q. compared to my speakers/room untreated and uncontrolled...

Is it clearer?

It will take very serious headphones to beat my 500 bucks system room now...none of my 7 one could do it....Even improved by mechanical and acoustical controls....

I dont want to pay 6 thousand dollars for a dedicated headphones system to be relatively on par with my room even if possible but it is not.....Save perhaps the more costly one i dont know....

Placebo effect play full range when people stay " passive" consumers...

Placebo effect is under the spell and control of "active" players BECAUSE They experiment with their listening and gear...They TEST the placebos....No need to use James Randi Blind test.... Any simple blind test will do....

Money means way less than people think in audio and placebo is neutralized easily in mechanical, electrical and acoustic experiments and embeddings controls....

Biases are not only negative influences to be eliminated they can be also a positive teacher to be used all along the RIGHT path for the ears and mind.... Call that a self education...

For headphones, i scrap all my 7 headphones ( magneplanar, electrostatic, dynamic and hybrid) for my 500 bucks rightfully embedded system at low cost because they cannot hold a candle to it....Then placebo with headphones? No more....It is more easy to control the room/speakers relation than the ready made shell box and the limitations of any headphones...

People dont learn to trust themselves, they trust money and reviews....