I currently have a SimAudio W-7 amp. If there is a word to describe its sound, it would be NEUTRALITY precisely capitalized. I mean it is neutral to a fault. It's NOT warm, or bright, or analytical, or sweet, or anything that might be misconstrued as a personality. It's just "IS". It has nothing that would offend me but nothing that is endearing either. I suppose some people may like this type of sound. I also have another SimAudio Moon W-3 amp, and although it is neutral, but it has a distinct personality of being slightly forward, slightly upfront and ultimately more interesting to listen to.
At this point, I am a bit disappointed what the W7 is not "FOR". I want its sound to be FOR something be it slightly warm, or forward, or a touch bright or something that is a bit interesting even if it is a flaw. It's like a politician who wouldn't say he's for something at the risk of offending his potential voters.
PASS Labs amps are known to be a bit warm in the bass along with all their class A type of sound just as tube amps but they somehow make music sings.
This certainly won't be the first time something was more complex that I figured it would be. : ) Lots of projects I get about 1/2 way into and say, "Damn, this is more complicated than I figured it would be" I have everyone on Audiogon to help me though !!
I understand what you're saying, and what you want, but your reasoning is linear, and I think it is much more complex than you think. You still have to do it by ear, and frequency response is just one part of it.
Great post. I was going to post something similar. The answer your question, the amp should do what the owner wants it to do, or people should buy the amp that sounds good to them.
That being said, my goal is to build a system that is neutral from the streamer, to dac, to amp. Why, because I want to have less variables to contend with when I buy my speakers. If I have 3 or 4 variable, trying to then pair it with a speaker is tricky for me. If I have a warm amp, do I need a bright speaker if so, how bright? If I get a warm speaker is the sound going to be too warm with my warm amp. Throw in a dac, and it more complicated. It is like to solve a 4 variable differential equation.
The second reason is that for this system, I want to hear what the band/singer and producer/mixer decided on and felt was their product. Maybe it sounds great, maybe the recording is too bright for me, but I want to hear it as they intended (as best I can). I don't want to have my system impose coloration on the sound and I accept the consequences. I know it won't be perfect, but I want to give it ago and I can use the speakers that I demo to adjust the sound if needed. I can demo speakers at my house, or even take my amp and dac (both small and light) to the store. Much of the fun is in the process and the shopping.
I also support everyone to customize their system to their preference. If you like warm syrup, that is great. If you like bright details, that is great too.
Hi Andy 2, preamps and poweramps should have no personality, ruler flat, otherwise transparency = information suffers greatly. If you want a different voicing you can do that with everything else down the chain. It comes cheaper and easier to tailor.
I have found most professional reviewers use the term, referencing to live, unamplified music. Also the comment is always used after they use an " audiophile " recording ( properly mic’d, mixed and mastered ), not a compressed, badly produced recording. Getting back to the speaker situation. My Lascalas and Kosst’s focals, although different, can play any kind of music, with authority and a bit of volume to boot. I owned, and have sold Thiels, and " exciting " is not their thing ( again, not to fight with anyone ), although I really do understand why people love them, and there is a lot to love, but you might have outgrown them. Remember this, a system is a " synergy " of all things, all parts necessary for playback. Enjoy ! MrD.
Some have made the accusations that every component has its own sound personality therefore nothing is "neutral". Then why professional reviewers and people keep using the word "neutral"? Kind of a mystery.
I think it is the Thiels that are not making you happy
Ultimately I think every speakers will have their own compromises. I can get a smaller monitors but it will have its short comings.
I heard a demo of live unamplified vs recorded of the same musician back to back at an fm acoustics demo and was taken aback with how warm and how much body live music has. Don’t be scared of a bit of warmth. It’s amazing how easy one can fall into the trap of thinking cool/dull is neutral and warm is inaccurate.
Without starting a war ( however, lately it is common for wars here to arise ), I think it is the Thiels that are not making you happy. Trying a different amp, or two, will be the only way to know.
It's true that many can't afford great tube amps...my world class Dennis Had hand made SE HO (it's a HO...it says so right on the front of the thing) was barely used (has its birthday with Had's signature on the bottom plate) when I bought it for around 1200 bucks. Who has that kind of money lying around? And the Freya preamp...700 clams! Whew...ya gotta be Daddy Warbucks to sling THAT kind of cash around, but hey, my audio needs for great sounding gear takes some long green, but the sacrifice is worth it...
The nice thing about Audiogon is that you can get some nice used gear at a good price if your patient and ultimately sell your amp if it isn’t performing the way you want. As you’ve noted you’re interested in tubes. . . If your not listening at ear splitting volumes you may be able to get a nice tube amp that can sound great and perform with your system. It might be worth a try.
I’ve tried a few amps and noticed that they all had different sounds. My ultimate goal is to project exactly what the performers played so I opted for amps that have high dynamic range and power and an extremely low noise floor. As Inna and others have said the music needs ultimately be engaging.
Other things that that could be an issue is your room. I’ve found the biggest impact on sound quality is speakers and then a close second is the room, third would be my amps. I hate moving because I have to look at a ton of places to be able to fit my stereo / home theater set up in a room with good acoustics. Unfortunately that quality isn’t located on a listing. You may have some room nodes at the critical middle listening range that are sucking the life out of the room/music. You can try to move your speakers into the room away from walls as much as possible or get a little more technical and get a basic USB Mic and use Room EQ Wizard to see that it looks like. Some time investment in learning to read the room will help you to know where your issue is or if there is one at all so you know if you’re chasing down the correct rabbit hole.
Neutral, Natural, what is it really. I've had different amps with near identical frequency response, yet one amp was fast, dynamic, while the other had flow & rhythm. I've had others that sounded excellent with a perfectly flat speaker, change to another perfectly flat speaker that had a very different load and it sounded different. Amps personality changes with different gear. There is something to be said for synergy.
In rereading the OP, it sounds like “neutrality” actually means “boring”. Is it also “transparent” to source and speakers such that whatever the end product is truthfully reflects the character of all the other components in the system, regardless of how forward, laid back, strident, warm, fast, etc. or does the W7 always sound “neutral” regardless of what upstream or downstream? If the later, then I would say “neutrality” is a problem.
No No. I'm not copping an attitude. That's not my way of telling you to get lost. I'm just trying to give you my honest 2 cents on it is all.
Sometimes the hardest system building problems turn out to be the best opportunities for achievement if we're willing to see it that way, but I've learned that from some equally hard mistakes that I've made over the years. But no, I apologize if I came across as hard nosed, not my real intent...just trying not to sugar-coat things too much. But, you are free to take that or leave it, wasn't meant to be personal.
Sooo......you don't want to overspend on power treatments, a new serious amp OR less demanding speakers. All presumably (largely) because any of that costs too much.
Then my friend I think you are in a real pickle...one that I don't know how you might reasonably expect to get out of painlessly...unless you find, or someone can recommend, a less expensive amp that solves all your problems...but, for the life of me, I don't know what that beastie would look like. New-generation class D anyone?
I think at this point I'd have to be thinking of opening my wallet to have to get out of that trap you're in, no matter which option you might choose....or be content to stay....just sayin'.
I agree. There's a difference between "neutrality" as an absolute theoretical and as a subjective impression. Either an amp in our system sounds like it's neutral to us or it doesn't.
It should go without saying that there is no component that ever existed that did not have a "personality". That's baked in to its DNA, whether by design or accident. That's a given.
I don't think we should exclude the discussion of a neutrality in the theoretical sense, it obviously might well be useful technically to understand as much as possible what might contribute, but I don't think that a conversation that starts with subjective impression should be prevented from concluding with the same. We might discuss amp theoretical neutrality all day long, but will it help us to identify the next likely amp candidate to try that might tic all the neutrality boxes for anyone subjectively.
As to your response to jetter's comment, have you considered trying higher efficiency speakers?
For example, if I need a tube amp that has the same drive as the W7, I would probably have to spend a lot of money. Of course I could get a 40W tube amp but that won't be enough for most applications.
andy2, I am not sure why you say tube amps cost "too much". Its my experience that they are no more expensive, in general, than SS amps. You can go to the extremes in all types of amps.
Our hearing is too complicated and the English language is not adequate to characterize our hearing perceives sound and music.
If we can't agree on the meaning of the word "neutrality" then it's hard to move to the next phase. If "neutrality" does not exist, then why do professional reviewers keep using the word? Is it the best they can do?
Of course there are others who believe "neutrality" does not exist because every single component such as an amp has its own distinct sound therefore by definition is not "neutral".
Tube amps are the most "colorful" but for whatever reason most people believe they are most truthful in term of reproducing music. Too bad they cost too much lols. Hey like they say, you have to pay to play.
roxy54, "subtractive coloration" is a great term. I think, this kind of coloration is virtually missed in all discussions, amplifiers or not. And within reason subtractive colorations are worse for me than added colorations.
"Every amp has a personality. Actually internal wire, caps, resistors, rectifiers and even the darn chassis EACH have a sound personality. So yes, the end product also does."
My first visit to this thread. Thank you Grannyring, there for a while I thought we were going to be in another thread that lives outside of audio reality.
Pretty much every piece I've owned has had some sort of unique sonic signature - amps, preamps, phono stages, speakers, streamers, CD players, headphones, etc.
As others have said, it's a matter of finding components that have a personality that you (and the rest of your components) are compatible with.
What sounds good to you may not to me and vice versa. I think that the better I get at communicating what I hear and the "personality" characteristics that appeal to me, the easier it gets to find that sound I'm looking for.
Whether it "should" or not is really neither here nor there. All gear has its own distinctive sound and you either like how it sounds, or not. There are usually sonic trade-offs in getting more of one thing while giving up something else, even with high end gear. The trick is to find and buy what you like.
So right roxy54. Every amp has a personality. Actually internal wire, caps, resistors, rectifiers and even the darn chassis EACH have a sound personality. So yes, the end product also does.
I agree with inna. Even though you think that your amp is neutral (I like the word natural better), there is apparently a subtractive coloration that is making the music less colorful and interesting, even though you can't identify it.
For some years, I used a McIntosh MC 300 as my main amp. I really liked it, and I had retired my MC2105 in favor of it. One day I took out the 2105 just for fun, and I never went back. It wasn't as silent or modern, and the mids were a bit more forward, but even though I'm sure that the MC300 was technically superior, I enjoy the 2105 presentation more. To sum it up, I think that every amp has a personality, and I don't think that the Sim is the right amp for you.
Wanted to play some music last night but my amp was reticent. Pushed, it started pulling. Push pull. Push pull. Was about to unplug when a thunderous "NO!" came from the speakers. With authority. Presence. Never heard it so forward before. My ears were ringing. Or was it the tubes? Sliding damper on, I could swear the amp began to hum. With pleasure. Liquid. Not syrupy, silky. Silky smooth. Yet at the same time, exciting. I slid another damper over a tube. This time, input tube. All the way. Really silky liquid now.
It runs hot and cold a bit, but I think I may be in love with my amp.
per·son·al·i·ty NOUN the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.
What is the distintive character of your source, speakers and room? Seems to me that the amp would be the 4th place I would look to infuse personality in a system.
Most likely, an amplifier designer uses 3/4 different pairs/types of speakers...to voice his amp so that it sounds like he wants it to sound....neutral, lush, forward, whatever... And his voicing may or may not be to your liking...
And, if you have different speakers, electronics, room, etc., then what you hear is going to be different....maybe to your liking and maybe not.
It is not a case of right or wrong, it is a case of preference and the reality of synergy...and why we often have to go through several pieces of equipment to find what works well together to deliver the sound that speaks to us.
Some of those German audiophiles and a few others in their quest for the ///'neutral'/// sound get the sound that is sterile and lacks many colors and nuances of the original.
I believe a system, as a whole, should be able to " show forth " the recordings, in such a way, that when you are in your listening seat ( the sweet spot ), you are hearing your favorite artists and musicians, performing at their " finest ", in their chosen acoustic space, and you, are completely engulfed and entertained, in the experience. Enjoy ! MrD.
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