I am yet to hear a Class D amp that does not sound rhythmically and musically disjointed

Low distortion is the exact opposite of “disjointed”. Go figure!

Who is right a guy or what others hear as good with numbers to back it up?

I have 4 different Class D amps in 4 different rooms ranging from last gen Icepower  to TI chip to modern Hypex.   Non sound disjointed.  All sound very good.  The Hypex is the bees knees especially with quality speakers.  I have to roll my eyes when someone tells me that does not sound simply spectacular.  Can only assume they are missing something but as always YMMV. 

I am yet to hear a Class D amp that does not sound rhythmically and musically disjointed.If anything the newer Purifi ones sound worse in that regard than the Hypex.Everything else might be better but if you listen to rhythmically intricate music played by good musicians you will hear how peculiar they sound.A lot of people seem not to notice that but it does not mean it is OK.My guess is if you have no sense of rhythm and are a poor dancer then Class D might be fine for you!

Of course a lot of SETS are weak in that area too-although they tend to sound more slow/plodding than disjointed.My Almarro 318B was pretty good in that area but I have used some that were pretty terrible-an Audio Note Kit 1 300B and Consonance Cyber 845 monoblocks for example.

I don't consider Cary audio the very best example of tube equipment.

I was amplifying the mids and highs of my triamplified DIY horn speakers with Cary Audio 2a3 SET monoblocks then I bought a pair of First Watt F3 single ended, single gain stage, class A stereo amps with VFET output transistors to replace the SET Carys after one of them caught fire.  That was years ago, and I have never regretted the change.  They sound excellent.

I own and love Pass Labs X350.5 and Luxman M900U

I made the switch to Class D with a pair of AGD Audion monoblocks. These amps are the best I’ve had in my system by some margin. Firstly, they produce no hiss/hum which has been a problem as I have high efficiency speakers. The sound is almost tube-like but is even better!. Soundstage, dynamics and detail are terrific.

I’ve used and loved SET/OTL tube amps for over 20 years but the new generation of Class D amps use less energy, produce virtually no heat and don’t need replacement tubes. So, for me, there’s no going back and I can’t see a downside.

+1 Dartzeel and Vitus

previous:

Zanden 6000 (tube)

Symphonic Line Kraft 300 (SS)

current:

Tenor HP150S (hybrid SS)

I'm going to answer this one a different way, based on your comments.  It seems that you are have a lot of problems with your tube amp.  I'd probably just get another tube amp that is more dependable.  Audio Research and McIntosh are the ones I have some experience with.  Audio Research can be hard to get fixed, since they have traditionally been difficult to get parts from (though I don't know if this still true, since they have been sold at least twice in the last few years).  Both are relatively trouble free for a very long time.

I've actually found that solid state tends to be more troublesome as the equipment gets older.  The transistors start going, and it is real pain to keep up with that. My dad lives with me now, and his 62 year old MC240 is still running well.  It still has all of its original KT88's, and most of the rest of the tubes are original.  We had to have it rebuilt in 2009 (mostly new caps and cleaning). Tubes tend to be very dependable in stereo equipment.  I think they got a bad rep. from old tube TV's where the electron gun needed very high current.  High current is hard on tubes.

Looking at my 8 year old TV: the picture is starting to go.  Solid state is cheap to manufacture in mass, but the dependability isn't really as good as the reputation.  Long term, my tube amps have been much more dependable than my SS equipment.

Now on to the original question.  Old Jeff Rowland Model 9 monoblocks or a Model 8 were quite good sounding in a carefully balanced room.  If you want to use them in normal living space, they lost their luster.  If you are in a living space, my various solid state McIntosh equipment sounded best.

The only two solid state pieces that I was totally satisfied with were my old Klyne MC step up amp and my old Wadia 6.  I know neither are main amps, but I've found SS amps to be lacking, especially if you are using them normal living spaces.

First Watt SIT-3

The Pass XA-25 is unique among Pass Labs amps and seemingly more like the First Watt stuff...absolutely the best sounding SS amp I've owned. My Dennis Had Firebottle SEP also sounds great, and neither will be replaced by Class D anytime soon. The general tone and tactile response of my tube guitar amps keep them around also as I doubt any Class D amp, regardless of measurements, will actually ever cop the buzz. 

If your speakers are over 90dB, some would say First Watt is preferable to Pass.  

To be safe, not knowing anything else, go with Pass Labs.   If the cost is too high, go for the Pass-designed First Watt amps.  This would be my default position.  More info might lead you to more specialized solutions.  

we sell sets no solid state amplifier wull sound the same

and we a l so sell solid state amps from peachtree coda krell and naim

Dave and troy 

Audio intellect nj

Researching the CODA big time right now. The fact that it's shelf size is a big factor. I have limited space.

+1 Coda.

I have been demo'd the complete range of Neurochrome Power Amp's available today and a Superseded Model.

I have heard these used on systems ranging in value from ££20K+ - £200K+.

I have heard these in use with Speakers ranging from ESL's @ £10K, Cabinet Speakers @ £3K+ and Highly Efficient Field Coil Speakers @ £80K

I have made it known at all demo's the impression made is plenty enough to encourage these to be looked at as an alternative option for Valve Amps.

I have these as the only Amp's on a Shortlist, which is to be my last owned Amp's, when I may one day let go of the owned Valve equipment.   

Anything from James Bongiorno. I own his GAS Son of Ampzilla and later the Sumo 'The Nine'

Later came the new SoA amps followed by Spread Spectrum Technologies

A lot of great suggestions above.  Personally I think speaker synergy is very important.  My 10 watt Dennis Had Inspire SEP drives my 99 dB Klipsch beautifully,  superb holographic sound stage. Everything sounds like being there! It takes my beefy 23 watt 300b/845 SET to drive my Focal Aria @92 dB.  And BION, a cheap Olchen EL34 that really only puts out about 5 watts before distorting above 3-5% sounds great paired with Vienna Acoustics @92 dB. I swapped out the stock Psvane tubes for NOS Svetlana and Tesla EL34s with Tung Sol and Sylvania FAA 6SN7s. It’s my master bedroom rig playing early morning and late night low volume jazz, folk, etc. sound very clean, detailed and warm. 

So, for SS, and I’ll probably get a lot of haters here, but I also have a vintage Crown DC 300A and IC150 preamp that sounds amazing driving a pair of vintage Infinity 4 way towers.  Different sound than tubes, but great imaging, tight punchy bass, warm, yes warm mids, and sparkling highs.  And it can play loud, loud! Rock, country, let’s get the party started!

You’ll have no problem driving 96 dB studio monitor speakers with 25-50 SS watts.  Never heard a Pass Labs, but everyone loves them…however $$$$! The Kinky reviews are good and only $3500 ish.  If this is a temporary solution, I’d pickup an integrated SS reliable brand like Cambridge Audio or Luxman off ebay or audio mart.  If you’re budget bigger, there’s always a used McIntosh! Only brand that holds its value like a used Ferrari. 

For relatively little more money than the Pass XA25, one can get a Coda No.8 which is a wholly superior amplifier in my system(s). It takes everything good about the XA25 up a notch or two. Its current output ability is incredible yet it also has finesse, speed and great decay. 

I enjoy the added soundstage and “drive” of the McCormack DNA-1 when my LTA ZOTL40 is rotated. I mainly listen to jazz. 

@jasonbourne71 THANK YOU - I will look in on Will Vincent (autospec) in Idaho. I found several Bedini forums today and started asking for repair suggestions to regain the Bedini magic we all love. Currently, it is better than my Schiit amps, but not what it was - the bass is slow and fat now - sounds wrong. It lacks a particular musical transparency that I adored. I feel like the recurrent repair dishonors what John created. I am not in a hurray as my current space does not allow for loud listening volume, and due to room acoustics, loud volumes create acoustic problems - still - to honor John and for my peace of mind, I would like to have the 25/25 restored to what John might have done were he still with us. Let's see what Will says. Thank you again.

@lefever : there was a 25/25 for sale on eBay several weeks ago for $3K.

@lefever : you might contact Will Vincent (autospec) in Idaho. He knew the Bedini brothers. Will builds tube amps and might have knowledge/experience repairing the 25/25. Mine alas is no longer working after I ran it 24/7 for nine years with the Quad 57's.

I love Lamm M1.2 Reference monoblocks.  Nice amps. 

I wanted the warmth of tubes with the bass definition of solid state and discovered the Pass Labs Aleph 5, which I have enjoyed for many years now. It does bass and space.

Hello dhcod!  Try the New Starke Fiera4. It is voiced to sound like a tube amp.got mine today and it is fine indeed. I have six of the precious version and tis one is better. There wasn't much to improve, that's why I have six of the older version! It not a lightweight in any sense of the word. They do have a return policy. And its not one of those $10,000+ amps. Try it, you can't lose much other than a little time.

Enjoy the music.

@jasonbourne71 and @vinylfan62  I agree on the Bedini 25/25. I have one and personally knew John and Gary Bedini. When I asked for a more powerful Bedini, John and Gary both told me to keep the 25/25 as it was their most musical of amps. I love mine and want to keep it until I die. It is an Amp over watts dual mono class A that makes speakers come alive and SOUNDS live, where other amps seem lifeless (lacking in musical presence). Sadly, mine needs repair, and both John and Gary have passed away. Know of anyone who can restore a Bedini 25/25 to its original Bedini magic? I have tried local shops in Las Vegas, and the sound just got worse (lost its transparency and detail in the bass). I bought mine in 1981 for $800 and it was a great purchase then and still. Would love to have it serviced to Factory Spec or or buy another in Mint condition.

Like my T+A a3000hv!

Luxman L-595ASE

Ralph, I was recommending your GaN amp elsewhere on this site, but his speakers do drop below 4 Ohms I think in the upper bass range, but there are no specs I can find for your amp if it’s stable down to 2 Ohms and what the power output would be (same for AGD amps BTW).  Could you maybe elaborate on that a bit here?

@soix @hedwigstheme 

A simple drop below 4 Ohms should not bother any class D amp made. 

Our class D will drive 1 Ohm. The protection circuit will simply kick in if the current is too high for the amp. FWIW, a 1 Ohm load isn't practical for any real-world speaker (although you do see impedances like that in the upper octave of some ESLs, which is not a problem). The reason is that at that impedance, the speaker cable becomes an enormous problem in terms of source impedance! This will severely limit the length of the cable and for that matter, decent cable choices available. All amplifiers made will also have higher distortion driving such a load. That distortion will be audible as less detailed and likely harsher sound since the distortion will obscure low level detail and add higher ordered harmonics which are perceived as harshness.

IOW, you can, but why??

@atmasphere.  Are there any class D boards you could recommend for DIY builders?  I don't expect it to be as good as yours.  

PS.  Mine is the Aavik U-150 integrated w/ world class DAC and MC Phono stage.  Beautiful !

Once you experience  Power and  Finesse at the same moment,  one can understand that Class D is the future......combine the best of SS and the Tube world and VOILA..............it's a great find.

@tubeguy76 thanks for the shout-out.

@soix

My Starkrimson Ultra amps are stable down to 1 ohm. The power output is

250W into 8ohm

500W into 4ohm

250W into 2 ohm

Orchard Audio Starkrimson Stereo Ultra 2.0

It's very good.

@atmasphere Ralph, I was recommending your GaN amp elsewhere on this site, but his speakers do drop below 4 Ohms I think in the upper bass range, but there are no specs I can find for your amp if it’s stable down to 2 Ohms and what the power output would be (same for AGD amps BTW).  Could you maybe elaborate on that a bit here?

@atmasphere:  do you expect to see Class D amps that can drive a continously low impedance (e.g., 1 ohm) in the bass at high power?

@soix https://www.epifani.com/ makes some interesting bass amps. Powerful and quite lightweight with some heavy hitters playing with them. You can see where this is going...

Would you say that in your experience with Class D speaker matching is easier or more difficult?

Compared to a tube amp, easier! Most speakers are designed to be 'voltage driven' which is to say that the amplifier is supposed to be a 'voltage source'. A voltage source will put out the same voltage regardless of the load. To do that a very low output impedance is required. This is stupid easy with class D and difficult at best with tubes, so in theory a class D amp should be a lot easier to match with a speaker. There are limits, such as extremely low impedances which will reduce the Q of the output section filter in a class D amp, but its pretty well-known that tube amps don't like really low impedances either so that's pretty well moot.

The only exception might be ESLs. Some ESLs, like Sound Labs, have a pretty significant impedance peak in the bass, and expect the amplifier to be able to make the same power into that peak as it might in the mids and highs where the impedance is much lower. In general a voltage source doubles power as the load impedance is cut in half which also means that the output power is cut in half as the load impedance is doubled. IOW a voltage source might have its 8 Ohms power cut in half or in quarter with such speakers (Sound Labs have a 30 Ohm peak in the bass region). So tube amps can work out well on such speakers where a powerful solid state amp won't be able to make power.

In addition, the capacitive load of ESLs can mess with class D amps that are not of the 'self oscillating' variety. This is because the capacitance of the load is in parallel with the inductance of the output filter of the amp, setting up an electrical resonance which can result in ultrasonic oscillation. I know of at least one respected class D amp that suffers this trait and can fail in this application (with possible damage to the speaker as well if not properly protected). Our class D is self-oscillating and so does not have this problem.

But there is also the fact that class D is making its way into the guitar world. I'm not talking about those cheap 'modeling' amps either- but good quality class D amps, often with a tube input section.

@atmasphere My bandmate has a very negative impression of Class D for guitar amps but he’s open.  Do you have any recommendations for some good ones that are already out?  Thanks!

@atmasphere Thanks for the note. All makes sense, and as they say, we’ll see how it goes. I’ve been following Class D for the past decade. A few buddies who play guitars switched with a few holdouts still running tube for lead guitars.

On a related note, I remember when the HD Radio tuners came out, people went out and bought them. Folks got fired up, we’d see note’s how the conventional FM radio tuners were dead forever!!! Outta here!, blah blah. HD radio and streaming came to automobiles too. Quite a change for the auto and audio industry. Seemed to make sense in autos for sure. For home use, a few holdouts still liking old FM more. When HD radio came out it seemed like it was still missing something.

While owning both, from time to time I still fire up the conventional Magnum Dynalab FM radio tuner. And what’s odd is how conventional FM radio still sounds as wonderful as ever. There are times I actually prefer its sound over today’s streaming for a different type of listening. Reminds me of tube amps and what is at question here.

Also watching closely how people some buy the latest generation of Class D from AGD, NAD, Atma, and others claiming its "there" now, and then how many of those same folks put them up for sale and return to Tube based amps again a year or two later. Very interesting to see how this continues to unfold next 2-5 years.Got the mono block tube amps playing great music and close to 3D type sound as I type this now.

Hey, maybe if everyone else goes Class D, there will be a glutt of tube amps and supply of tubes out there for the rest of us diehard holdouts to pick up for a great price. Wishful thinking maybe, and looking forward to it either way, good times! :) 

In your case with exciting class-D amp success, does this somehow suggest you are eventually planning on shutting down your tube amp manufacturing side of the business, i.e. "are on life support"?

@decooney That depends on sales. But if we can make a class D sound as good as tubes I suspect others can too. But there are other issues that anyone dealing with tube amps should think about. We all know about the war, which has increased tube prices worldwide.

But there is also the fact that class D is making its way into the guitar world. I'm not talking about those cheap 'modeling' amps either- but good quality class D amps, often with a tube input section. They might make 50 to 200 Watts and weigh under 20 pounds. Many guitar players these days do not rely on the overdrive sound of their amps for their unique 'sound'; they get that from their effect pedals instead. So a guitar amplifier these days doesn't have to be a 100 Watt Marshall.

Its happening slowly right now. But as more class D product makes it into the guitar world, tube sales in that market will dwindle. Audiophiles may not realize it, but tube sales worldwide are driven by the guitar market, not the home audio market. In ten years I suspect the guitar world will look a lot different- if you have a 50 Watt guitar amp, its a big deal that it might weigh only 15 pounds instead of 75!!

Just read coachpoconnor comments and agree wholeheartedly! I also have a Supratek preamp and synergy with both amps are excellent! 

The SIT-3 doesn't have much gain, so it is best with a Preamp that has gain on the higher side. 

First Watt SIT-3. I mostly use my Coincident Frankenstein Mk.II 300b monoblocks The SIT-3 is also enjoyable! It has that nice SET type of sound, but isn't fleshed out as much in the midrange. For a solid state amp it is really great with a grain free presentation and nice tonality.

It works best with speakers between 4 and 8 ohms.

@atmasphere I replaced my tube amps with a class D amp and no downside in my system- its just as smooth and revealing as the tubes were- no harshness or brightness and good bass impact. I’m really convinced that tube power amplifiers are on life support; why have one when you can have an amp that sounds better in every way and not have to deal with tube issues??

Based on questions from friends, many still rotating and hoarding tube amps and tubes - I’m still seeing some success with simple tube amplifiers paired non-exotic output tubes. The tube amps with less expensive and available opt tubes I mean.

In your case with exciting class-D amp success, does this somehow suggest you are eventually planning on shutting down your tube amp manufacturing side of the business, i.e. "are on life support"?

Would you say that in your experience with Class D speaker matching is easier or more difficult?

I replaced my tube amps with a class D amp and no downside in my system- its just as smooth and revealing as the tubes were- no harshness or brightness and good bass impact. I'm really convinced that tube power amplifiers are on life support; why have one when you can have an amp that sounds better in every way and not have to deal with tube issues??

Pass XA25 is here to stay. Reputation, service, durable and excellent sound.  Has plenty of reserve power.  You can get a demo for 4k @Reno HiFi.

Accuphase or  luxman class A (I have the 550ax2 in its 20w and perfect for my tannoys 94db) superb control but also sweet midrange. First watt/ pass in US are great value. 

Just my 2cents 

I rotate between a Pass XA-25 and a Dennis Had Inspire Firebottle HO (high output). Both sound amazingly excellent.