I used to just buy what I could listen to but digital purchases changed all that. As they are basically computers my equipment had no value in a very short time. Even the major brands of the time, Theta digital and Faroja have long been gone. My VTL and Magnapans have kept their value as well as my kimber cable. It can all be a guess. |
No, I don't consider resale value until I'm prepared to upgrade or sell an item. I only consider the need to upgrade to a better piece of equipment to fill a gap or issue with my system. That said, since my music taste and system make it relatively easy to determine if equipment is performing to my expectations, I typically demo higher end equipment before purchasing. I find it incredible that some dealers will not allow potential customers to home demo high end equipment for a short period before purchasing. My favorite dealer in San Diego would allow me to take equipment home for a week or so. They would take my credit card information just in case. But, at this level, you really have to hear it in your home and system. In the store, isn't nearly the same. So, buying and not being satisfied and quickly selling doesn't strike me as being something I want to look forward to. Especially for really costly items. Now if you bought the item for pretty close to blue book value, then no worries. but, if you bought the item for close to "retail" value, then each time you're probably taking a loss on resale. That may be okay if you owned the item for a long time, but if you purchased it new based on listening in the store, of someone's recommendation and took it home, connected it and it sound like crap after the appropriate break in time, well, that just sucks. I purchase to fill an deficiency in my system, or I can afford the upgrade. Enjoy |
In evaluation the "value" of a component I do consider the enjoyment it will bring as part of the "equation". Having said that, I find that all audio equipment depreciates fairly quickly, so I've bought a number of "current model" components from individuals who seem to like to try out new things for a few months, like a new car purchase, the ones who "take the hit" on the depreciation. I prefer to purchase used items from individuals, compared to "dealer demos", as when I worked in the audio business, I found that our components had lots of hours on them, by the time we sold them. You oftentimes do benefit from the manufacturer's warranty when you buy these components, but when the staff power the units on when they open the store and leave them on all day, they do have a lot more "wear" on them by the time you purchase them as a demo unit. I also have "a thing" about buying used speakers. To me it's really difficult to figure out if speakers have been "abused". One thing I've found is that McIntosh components seem to hold on to their value better than other brands. |
tonykay Initially, I said that buying equipment was analogous to the stock market. "Analogous" simply means that something is like, or similar to, something else-not precisely the same. My comment was first taken out of context, and then blown out of proportion. The analogy wasn't that difficult to understand!I think everyone here understood the analogy. What was confounding was your misstatement of fact regarding the functioning of major stock exchanges, and then your denial that you'd been so in error. And here you are again, still misrepresenting your profound error about investment liquidity: The stock exchanges don’t "ensure" liquidity, they simply facilitate it (very much like Audiogon).As I hope you do now understand, the major stock exchanges absolutely do ensure liquidity - that's their primary function. That's unlike Audiogon, where used equipment can sit unsold for months. |
Initially, I said that buying equipment was analogous to the stock market. "Analogous" simply means that something is like, or similar to, something else-not precisely the same. My comment was first taken out of context, and then blown out of proportion. The analogy wasn't that difficult to understand! |
I've been looking for some advice on buying some new stocks. Looks like I may have found the right forum LOL HAHAHAHA On a more serious note though, personally I tend to consider re-sale value in my audio purchases, as I may look to upgrade in the future. I do not make it my primary consideration, but I do give it some thought. If I find something that I have been looking for, at a decent price point, I will go for it, regardless of re-sale value |
lloydc "investing" in a child's future is not meant literally, It has some of the characteristics of investing, but not all. It's an analogy. The parent doesn't expect to profit from it, it's a giftAgreed! And of course, in a sense, audio is an investment, because the ROI is the enjoyment of the music. And - perhaps this is the best part - it's a benefit that isn't yet subject to tax. That's sweeeet! |
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"investing" in a child's future is not meant literally, It has some of the characteristics of investing, but not all. It's an analogy. The parent doesn't expect to profit from it, it's a gift. I'm looking at funding an Ivy League education right now, which puts any significant hifi acquisitions on hold. I think I'll call it, "paying". |
I consider resale. But I try to take the long view, so I also want to be reasonably assured of future support, which requires somewhat more than a small shop. I sometimes keep things so long the value becomes negligible. E.g., a $5000 amp I got in 1996 would cost much more than that to replace now. Seems odd that anyone here would fail to grasp such basic concepts as "investment" and "market maker". People may say they are "investing" in mental health or happiness or their children or whatever, but it isn't meant literally. They mean they are spending money (an expense) and hope for a benefit (as opposed to a profit, as from an investment). Some high end audio equipment consists of assets, but they are depreciating assets. Like your daily driver car, they are not investments. There are a few exceptions in audio, but they are rare |
tonykay Look, this is a "forum." In a forum, you’re free to express your opinion.Of course! However, when misstatements of facts are made, contributors should not be surprised if they are corrected, such as when you stated: The stock exchanges don’t "ensure" liquidity, they simply facilitate itSo as you also stated: If you don’t like what you’ve read...just get over it! |
reubent1,663 posts12-03-2016 7:35amPeople who don't consider resale must have better access to dealers, or other audiophiles, where they can audition equipment and insure they are making the best buying decisions. In much of the country quality hi-fi dealers are few and far between and opportunities to audition are severely limited. In this scenario, buying/trying is the only option. Knowing you can resale for little/no loss is key to auditioning different equipment. I've been in blind tests that have proven to me that I can't hear any difference in electronics or cables, so I never spend much on them and never plan to sell until I need a new feature ... which for my 2-channel system is NEVER (I run vintage equipment). So no need to worry much about resale for those. For speakers, first I look at objective measurements. This narrows the characteristics to speakers I know will likely fit the attributes I want. Then I generally buy used so someone else takes the depreciation hit. I assume that if I don't like them (highly unlikely if the measurements are extensive ... FR on- and off-axis, waterfalls, polars, etc.) I'll know it pretty quickly and I can sell them for near what I paid for them, so I don't even worry about resale. On top of that, I'm not subwoofer averse, so I don't have to lay out big bucks to get full range speakers. So I can try new speakers, but keep my same bottom end. |
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People who don't consider resale must have better access to dealers, or other audiophiles, where they can audition equipment and insure they are making the best buying decisions. In much of the country quality hi-fi dealers are few and far between and opportunities to audition are severely limited. In this scenario, buying/trying is the only option. Knowing you can resale for little/no loss is key to auditioning different equipment. Unless you have deep pockets, and like to foolishly blow money on your hobby, considering resale is a must for many. Of course cigarette companies, Starbucks and movie theaters/studios depend on people foolishly blowing their money, so there must be a pretty big pool of free spenders out there.... This is just my opinion and I'm sticking with it....... Enjoy the hobby, on whatever budget you've set aside. Oh, and lastly, I've been buying and selling on AudiogoN since 1999/2000. I've yet to have a significantly negative buying/selling experience. Diligence in product research and proper product packaging is key. Also a good dose of skepticism doesn't hurt. |
Very interestimg comments all around. I would love to buy really boutique stuff, but I notice that it tends to stay up for sale for long periods or is reposted for sale at later dates. Guess there's so much great sounding equipment from well-known makers (which tends to sell relatively quickly), that it makes little sense to me to buy less marketable items. The idea of having a fast "out" should the equipment not work for me is very appealing. |
I can't believe tonykay and cleeds are arguing about the stock market and liquidity come on guys relax it's stereo equipment! On the subject of resale value while I don't strictly consider it I do feel like I have a pretty good sense of what is and is not a good deal on here. Another way of saying I spend way too much time browsing the listings! The upshot being I've never seriously taken a bath on anything and I've never not been able to resell something after a purchase. I think after a while it just becomes instinctual. And I have mostly bought and sold gear from smaller companies with no issues. |
cleeds, If you backpedal some, you’ll find that I never claimed that Audiogon ensures liquidity, only facilitates it. You may need to look up the definition of liquidity. This is my last post on this thread. The points I've made have been pretty clear. I have no interest in letting this back-and-forth go on forever. I actually DO have a life! |
I never buy with "resale value" being the top priority - but I do keep in mind that I may upgrade one day and I'd like to have some value left in te equipment I buy. When buying a processor for example, I'm aware that with technological upgrades the resale value will plummet. But as far amps and speakers for example - of course I got for the sound first but I like knowing that whatever brand I choose will hold it's value. Thank you McIntosh. |
tonykay Maybe you just bought the wrong equipment, or paid too much for the equipment you bought. You probably should have considered the resale potential before purchasing.Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Almost all of my equipment has had outstanding resale value. That's in spite of the fact that I don't consider resale value when I purchase equipment. If you don't see the similarity between the buying and selling of securities (stock exchange), and the buying and selling of audio equipment (Audiogon), then we have nothing more to talk aboutYou're obviously confused. On a major exchange such as the NYSE, there is buyer each day for every seller of every single share of stock. Without exception. That's because it is someone's role on the exchange - for each stock - to ensure liquidity. They are called "market makers." On Audiogon, a piece of equipment can go months without a buyer. That's because it is not Audiogon's role to ensure liquidity. Audio equipment (for me) is still an investment, maybe not in the "traditional sense," but an investment nonetheless.No problem - go ahead and fill up your 401K and IRAs with audio gear. That's not my strategy for investments. |
sbank, good point you should also void purchasing from everyone who wants and aims to make profit. that includes dealers that sell brand new products i also buy strong brands that i put an amount of often complete overhaul restoration effort to make profit mostly on mint cosmetic and operational condition finished product. in average i spend $50...150 on good quality electronic parts from mouser manufactured in USA or Japan to restore mostly solid state electronics mostly in sub- $1000 range. avoiding @czarivey here is no brainer. i simply don't trust audiogon when it comes to selling my products. last thing i want to do is selling via provider that can potentially screw me over and Audiogon isn't the first or last. my aim is cash and i prefer to sell out of retail store locally with personal limited 3 months warranty. |
I buy from smaller companies with great sound. Never a problem selling. Many of these smaller companies make better sounding gear than the big boys that resell faster. Smaller the better:) Again, I have never had an issue selling great sounding gear from small one man operations. May take longer, but others want and buy what I also happen to like. |
cleeds, Maybe you just bought the wrong equipment, or paid too much for the equipment you bought. You probably should have considered the resale potential before purchasing. If you don't see the similarity between the buying and selling of securities (stock exchange), and the buying and selling of audio equipment (Audiogon), then we have nothing more to talk about. Also, I checked my 401K and you’re right, there is no audio equipment in it. Audio equipment (for me) is still an investment, maybe not in the "traditional sense," but an investment nonetheless. |
I also buy to own and prefer new, but in case of my speakers (6 month old dealer demo for 60%) the closest dealer to Chicago was in Pennsylvania. Traveling there would cost me probably the difference between 60% and typical resale of 50%, and I would still not know how it sounds in my room with my system. Buying new, based on great reviews, was just too much of a risk. It was calculated risk, but all is good -speakers are wonderful. |
tonykay The stock exchanges don’t "ensure" liquidity, they simply facilitate it (very much like Audiogon). Whether audio equipment is an investment or an expense depends on your perspective.Sorry, but you're completely mistaken. The major stock exchanges most certainly do ensure liquidity - that's the specific function of the "market makers" who work the trading floors. A major stock exchange has nothing in common with the role Audiogon plays. As for audio equipment being an investment, it isn't in the traditional sense. Certainly, one can argue that the enjoyment of music is the "yield on investment" from audio purchases, and I wouldn't argue with that. But my 401K doesn't include any audio equipment, and I'd wager yours doesn't, either. And the return on my retirement funds - which is positive - surpasses by far the financial return on my audio equipment - which is negative. |
I buy a piece of gear to address a need in the system and replace what was once the weak link. So I try to choose carefully. The last thing I think about is resale value as that would imply I most likely would upgrade to something else down the road. This was my thinking years ago when I bought gear to just try a new flavor. At this point in my life my goal is to get off the dreaded upgrade spiral. |
cleeds, I’m sorry that you didn’t agree with my analogy between the stock market and used audio equipment, but not agreeing with it doesn’t make it wrong. The stock exchanges don’t "ensure" liquidity, they simply facilitate it (very much like Audiogon). Whether audio equipment is an investment or an expense depends on your perspective. Thanks for letting me know yours. |
I think that for those who are just getting into the hobby it is well advised to look for re-sale value as most often than not many components and speakers will come and go until you find what works for you. Having said that I have found that moving towards "boutique" brands with very good performance/cost ratio is where I have found the keepers. YMMV of course. |
