I’m going to buck the trend here and recommend the P10. I have 2 high end systems in my home and turntables in both. My main system has Harbeth M40.1 speakers and a fully upgraded Linn LP12 with Radikal power supply, Keel subchassis, Ekos SE arm, Akiva MC cartridge, and Zesto Andros vacuum tube phono stage. My other system has Sterling LS 3/6 speakers, REL S5 sub, Rega P10 turntable, and Luxman EQ-500 vacuum tube phono stage.
Both of my speakers are similar to your Harbeth SL5 speakers. I recently upgraded my Rega RP10 to the Rega P10. Fremer’s review of the P10 is spot on and he loved it as much as I do. The P10 is much better than the RP10 or P8. The P10’s sound quality is in a league of turntables 2-3 times its cost. The P10 package deal with the Apheta 3 cartridge and RB3000 arm is a great deal and if you shop around, you can get around 20 percent off MSRP. The thing I really like about the Rega P10 package is that it’s engineered to work as a system (turntable, tonearm and cartridge) by the Rega engineers. The SQ of P10 is fantastic, providing stable imaging, with a wide and deep soundstage. Tonality, timber are lifelike. The P10 is dead quiet in operation and the Apheta 3 is a great sounding and tracking cartridge. I can’t stand any noise coming from my turntables and both my P10 and LP12 are silent operators. I highly recommend getting the P10 with the Apheta 3 cartridge.
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@gunners01 I may be repeating myself. If you do go for the Garrard, make sure your plinth can accommodate a 12" arm. |
for $ 9000 you can beautifully rebuild some Garrards rather than just one.
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@noromance, My 401 measures 0.11% wow and flutter on the RPM iOS app. I have the Kokomo bearing upgrade on mine. Can’t find anything about the SPH bearing on the net? Sounds like a worthwhile improvement though. My worn 301 manages 0.16%. The tonearm is 12”, don’t think I can go back to a 9” now!
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Hi Gunner,
Thanks for sharing your feelings about experiencing a comparison between a rebuilt Garrard and a Rega, etc.
The main thing that guided me on my desire/quest to own a nice 301 comes from my friendship with the great music producer/record company owner, Winston Ma. Specifically, the rather incredible fact that Winston used his personal 301 as the source for one, or more, of his incredible $50+ “gold label” CDs. Before I actually owned my Woodsong (shout out to Chris), I always thought of Winston’s “master 301”. And over the years conceptualized the reality of the Garrard 301/401 sound as stemming from the solidity of the deck and, mostly, the idler drive producing the physical “meat” stored in the groves unlike ANY belt drive. Not to negate the reality of the “super tables” but not many of us can afford tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. I scored my Woodsong 301 with a $3500 Ortofon 309 arm for $5300 and feel grateful every time I listen and hear that wonderful, unique physicality that is a beautifully reimagined 301. In a real way, I was not surprised. A legend is not created without substantial cause! |
I have reached a point in my audiophile life where the purely objective aspects takes second chair to the sensory. A prime example would be my Manley Steelhead. When I power it up and watch the blue lights come on and can see in an instant which of it's three inputs (one MM and two MC) is switched on, I smile. I know right away if it is my Thorens TD124 or my Garrard 301 that is ready to go. It's not just the visual but also the tactile. When I turn that input knob on the Steelhead, it again is with a certain sense of satisfaction. Remember the 1949 Buick Roadmaster featured in the movie Rain Man? It is like that; taking pleasure in the sensory masterpiece of something well designed and crafted with care and love. It is a classic for a reason. That reason includes but is not limited to objective performance. It gives a lot of people subjective satisfaction and joy. The very same thing holds true of the design and build of the two turntables I mention above. The same holds true of the incredible cocobolo veneered plinth that Russ Collinson crafted as a one-off for me.
I can appreciate and I do accept smatsu's love for his Rega P10. I don't doubt his summary of it's performance level for a second. But I would never swap either of my decks for a Rega P10. Art Dudley has written about this very same topic and he is a much better writer with a much wider audience than I am. He has written about the obsessive devotion to detail that went into the manufacturing of both the Thorens TD124 and the Garrard 301. Each and every part was designed and built only for that single deck; no parts were shared from other models. Each part was built to endure and they have proven their durability over 60 years time, often with abuse and/or neglect somewhere along the way. Do you think that 60 years from now a Rega P10 could be rescued from an attic and refurbished to better-than-new condition with minor effort? Back to the car analogy, we all know that they don't build cars now the way they were built in '49 with that Buick Roadmaster and likewise, a modern day Honda Accord will be un-salvageable waste in 60 years whereas a '49 Roadmaster discovered in some dilapidated barn in Iowa-even 60 years from now barring the apocalypse- could be restored back to it's magnificence. |
ndevamp,
check your idler wheels first for proper operation. In time (~ 60 years) idler wheel develops flat spots which can be removed with sand paper while turning it. Also check pulley it has to be clean and glossy. Remove any residues with solvent. Better to change it into new ones pulley and idler.
Garrard 301/401 as is is capable to reach less than 0,1%. If modded properly I was told it can reach 0,04-0,05% w&f. |
@bukanona, my 301 idler is a bit shiny and has small cracks developing so really needs renewing. Also the motor pulley is shiny polished and won’t grip the idler very well. So need to renew both. While I’ve got the RPM app out I should swap the good condition idler from the 401 into the 301 and see if there’s an improvement in w&f. I recall changing the oil in the bearing for a slightly lighter grade a few years back which centered the speed control. Also the motor bearings could do with some attention and the platter main bearing has developed some play. The 401 is tight by comparison. Not bad for the old 301 considering I bought it in 1989 for Aus$90 and all the work it’s done over the decades! Just looked at Classic Hifi Uk who can refurb it with a new paint job too for £500. That’s the beauty of a Garrard, it’s a well-loved classic that is totally restorable.
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For what it's worth, I don't think we are talking about "wow and flutter". I think the issue most harped upon by those who dislike idlers is noise manifest as rumble. Let's face it, rumble is a potential problem, but proper restoration of the motor and moving parts and advanced methods of plinth design and build can reduce rumble to irrelevant levels, at least for Garrard and Lenco, based on personal experience. A TD124 presents some more complex questions, because there you have both an idler AND a belt drive.
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I talked with chris at Woodsong today. I can see why everyone is so happy with him. Knowledgeable, customer-centered and a passionate audiophile. He clearly knew a great deal more than me, but never came across as condescending.
I’m leaning the direction of a Garrard 301 with Woodsong doing the rebuild. However, and excuse ignorance in advance, but what does the forum think of the Thorens 1601. Yep, belt drive, but classic design, and design principles and a price point that is below the rebuilt 301 and way below P10. Perhaps I’m comparing apples to oranges, but bear in mind I’m on a P3 at the moment.
I’m pleased with my Vincent PHO701 phono stage, and ideally don’t want to buy a new turntable and then feel compelled to entirely upgrade the rest of my system. I get that this will forever be a temptation, but I would like this to last a while....at least until the S&P 500 comes back! |
this is your “forever turntable”. go with the 301 or 401. when my woodsong 401 arrived, my first lp was wes montgomery, Smokin’ at the Half Note. first track, “no blues” had me out of my seat - had never happened before. that’s the idler drive effect, very propulsive. when i finally sat back down, i enjoyed a fine single malt scotch - cao ila i think - and have never looked back. only thing i’m thinking of changing is upgrading to Koetsu cartridge. oh my.... |
You stand at a crossroads. Take the Thorens route and settle for a decent machine with the average Vincent phono. But you won't ever upgrade without losing big money. Take the Garrard route and you have a platform that will support top arms and cartridges. So, compromise on price and quality and have an okay rig or take the leap into the higher strata that will last a lifetime.
By the way, have you rolled the PHO tube?
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Mdalton.
I have a koetsu black goldline spinning on my 401.
Go for it, you will not regret it. |
uberwaltz, have been lusting for the Urushi Tsugaru, but sooo expensive. but also sooo beautiful - imagine it with my blue plinth and Reed 3P cocobolo arm.
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Hi Noromance
new tube on the way to roll PHO. And thanks for counsel. Chris mentioned ModWright phono stage. Assume it was 9.0.
I’m strongly leaning to Garrard. Best |
Mdalton.
Yes I can visualize that indeed.
a combo to lust after. |
I picked up a new old stock (NOS) 401 on eBay from Germany (old EMI stores) about 10 years ago or so; built my own plinth and added a Scheu Tacco tonearm with Dynavector Karat cartridge. This replaced a Planar 3, which was given to my daughter. Have never been inclined to upgrade from the 401, and it'll undoubtedly still be running when I am not!
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@gunners01 If you decide on the 401, maybe run what you are getting and for how much by us first. Not sure what Woodsong do to restore one but I do know AudioGrail tears down the table to pieces and cleans, replaces rubbers amd springs and bushings, and strips the poisonous cadmiun from the linkages.
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After having used a Thorens TD-125 and a SOTA Sapphire [with vacuum] for a number of years, I decided to pull out an old Garrard 301 I had, build a "floating" plinth for it using my Souther Linear Tracking arm with a "Helikon SL" cartridge, and can say that I have no plans to look any further. I was amazed that a "vintage" table could perform so well. It is without a doubt the most satisfying sound I've ever achieved from the analogue end of my system. My subwoofers [Linkwitz "Orion" loudspeakers] show no sign of complaint. I highly recommend either the Garrard 301 or 401 as your choice. I don't think you'll be disappointed ---------- |
thanks again noromance. Right now I'm a strong lean to the 401. I'm trying to closely match the wood veneer of my Harbeth HL5 Plus speakers in "tiger ebony". As ebony is not cheap, a woodsong ebony plinth is $3800. gulp. thinking ortofon AS 309 tone arm and a Hana HL cart. Trying to source a 401 for 1k, estimated $750 for rebuild, + $3,800 for plinth, Hana EL probably $500 and ortofon AS 309 probably $2500 so all in its estimated to be $8500 ish. same price as the SkyFi (work done by AudioGrail in UK.
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Can you reach out to Jim Campbell? He's a lot cheaper. My 1/2" solid walnut topped and maple birch ply cost $800.
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If buying an unrefurbished 401, try get one with the flat strobe window. It's earlier and by all accounts better built. Not a big deal if refurbished.
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Gunner,
I would strongly consider that $3500 rebuild on US Audio Mart that was linked in a previous post. The open plinth is not ideal but the amount of rebuild seems pretty good. And the rebuild and plinth appears to be well thought out and good quality. I would try to talk with the seller and, maybe, make a good offer considerably less than asking.
As mentioned, I feel lucky to have found that beautiful Woodsong 301 with the Ortofon 309 you mentioned. If you have indeed found a 309 for $2500 that is a good deal and you could have a very nice 301 rig for $6k. Maybe think of getting into a better plinth as a future upgrade, or not. If you went this way, I would definitely upgrade your phono stage and get something like a lower line Ortofon MC cartridge for $500 to $1000. OR, be patient and wait for a nicely rebuilt 301 with arm to show up on the Audio Mart or Audiogon. I would not buy a used cartridge unless you factor in a stylus retipping. One last thing is that I believe the main difference between a 301 and a 401 is the cosmetic. Personally, I much prefer the more rounded, classic look of the 301. Especially with a good rebuild, the tonal difference between the two tables is small.
If you wait, as I did, you may be rewarded by finding a beautiful Garrard. However, nice rebuilt rigs are few and far between. I only secured mine because the seller had medical problems. Again, check out that 301 with the open plinth! |
Mglik.
I thought that open plinth 301 was very fair for the money.
Indeed if I had the spare cash it might be sitting next to my 401.....
Which is why I posted the link to begin with, the open plinth not to everyone taste but it also had capability for two arms. A nice mono and stereo setup would be possible.
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I just went through listings on audio mart and do not see a Garrard 301 or 401. Lots of Linn LP12 and some good Thorens. |
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Thanks. It’s very tempting. But by the time i add a tone arm and cart I’m w/in a stones throw if a “new” Woodsong.
I really appreciate everyone’s help and insights. Seriously great community.
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That all depends on how much you plan to spend on a tone arm of course. And do not forget price was in CAD so a lot less in USD.
And very likely open to a decent discount.
Just my thoughts, best on whatever you decide. |
Don’t be afraid to buy from the UK. Check to see if they can expedite shipping if you want. Lots more available there and always cheaper than US. Did you check in with Matt Taylor of AudioGrail? |
Seems quite costly over there in the US for anything Garrard. Check out eBay UK here for a decent 401.
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I am sure it has been mentioned but check with Chris at Artisan Fidelity. He always has options for plinths and fully completed 401's.
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Hey Gunner,
I just checked out that ad and the Acoustand Audio Twin Arm Skeletal Plinth on the Acoustand site. To buy that plinth new from that company installed would be $527. My Woodsong plinth was $4,000! That 301 is probably about 7 out of 10 mostly for cosmetics. It does have the Woodsong idler wheel and new pulley which are the most important parts. It does seem to be in quite good working order. I would offer the guy $2,000 USD. He is now asking $2,227 which is a very fair price. And get that Ortofon 309 for $2500. It is what I have and seems to be a great and very appropriate arm for a 301. I would sell that entry level Vincent phono stage and invest around $1,000 in one of the many good phono stages. And also make an investment in a mid level MC cartridge. I suggested an Ortofon to match the arm and as a good value. I would be quite content with such a rig. Would consider sending it to Chris at Woodsong someday for an upgrade, or not. One simple and excellent self upgrade would be to buy a Pureaudio Tenuto gun metal mat for about $400. I have one... big improvement. In any event, $2k for a decent and well functioning 301 is a good deal and a great start! I would not be overly concerned with having the “best”. Good enough is good enough. And you will have a quite livable amount of the Garrard Sound. |
I have been in communication with the seller of that 301 on USAM and they are most definitely open to offers to sell quickly in today's climate.
If I don't stop looking it might end up next to my 401, so please buy it Gunner!
😉😉😉 |
Hey Uber,
Appreciate your echos of my comments.
Yes, that USAM 301 is an attractive unit. Seems well beyond the “classic” 301 set up. And the new Woodsong idler wheel and new pulley probable make it very usable. Feel we have done our best to guide Gunner as vinyl and Garrard fans. I looked for my 301 for years. Got lucky to have found a pristine Woodsong 301 with Ortofon 309 arm. And Chris at Woodsong tells me that my $4k plinth is a special one he no longer offers utilizing Panzerholtz super dense wood. It certainly is a silver lining in these trying times for us audiophiles and music lovers. Special extra time to love our hobby. Wishing you and all our chat group folks to stay healthy and upbeat! |
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A Rega P10 v Garrard 401?
Dare I suggest that something is seriously wrong with the whole Rega approach if this is remotely a contest.
A 2019 design v one from 45/55 years ago? It shouldn't really be a contest, or should it?
My dad had a low level Garrard back in the late 70s and it was a lovely deck indeed. Still, I would like to think that a P10 turntable is very near the state of the art sonically today given its minimalist design. |
@cd318 Considering many recordings from that period blow away 2019 ones, it's not that improbable!
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Mglik.
Would love to see pictures of your Woodsong 301.
Maybe when you get time, you could take some and add a virtual system to your profile? |
noromance,
You know I can remember a time when some (most?) of the British audio press used to lambast decks such as the Garrards and the Technics. It was all Rega/Linn back then in the late 70s/80s.
It’s quite heart-warming to see how things eventually turned out.
I'll always remain suspicious of reviewers who generally do more far harm than good. Their burying of MiniDisc, a fabulous format, was just another crime on their money grubbing hands.
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Gunner I'm also in the DFW area and running both Garrard 401, Garrard 301, and a TW Acustic belt drive turntable. Both of my Garrard plinths are piano gloss Macassar Ebony stacked ply plinths. I can help with your turntable decision if you're looking to audition or needing opinions. My system is here, take a look and see if you like my set up.
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4524
Regarding the 301 sounding better the 401, this is just not true. |
@cd318 Indeed. I had a LP12 for years. Thought it was awesome until I tried the 401. I lived through the whole Linn/Naim era. Luckily Glenn Croft and my love of tubes rescued me from going that moneypit route. |
Hi,
if you like tweeking and want to admire your work in the end go for Garrard, more sexy, on the contrary RP10 cannot go wrong.
Idlers have a certain charm (and flaws) but considering the music you are mainly listening then Rega may be a better bet.
I share ndevamp comment about Alfa Romeo. |
I own a 301 grease in woodsong plinth, 2 emt direct drives, and kuzma reference. Enjoy them all. If i was forced to pick just one it would be the 301. Im not familiar with the p10 but from what I've seen in the past from Rega you can do much better in a belt drive. I did have a friends p9 years ago as a loaner. |
@gunners01
I just noticed talk about the 301 in Vancouver. The owner is a good friend of mine named Sam. He replaced it with a nauntais 301 fully done out with the big power supply. He also had a fr64s he mentioned maybe selling. You could maybe work a deal with the arm if that arm interests you. Our dollar is very low right now too.
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bukanona,
"If you look into Rega technical specification and manual you’ll find close to nothing. So how to buy turntable about which manufacturer speaks only about materials used? Of course in our century figures means nothing, marketing means everything."
Good point! Of course it's been that way for a quite a while now but it's still quite a disturbing thought to imagine Rega as the new Linn!
If I remember correctly Rega did once face the odd criticism of their turntables running ever so slightly fast, but they seem to have brushed that aside fairly easily (unlike the brilliant but doomed Pink Triangle which went down mainly due to an inability to shake off persisting speed stability rumours).
I like Rega products (esp the loudspeakers of yore) but it was disappointing that a company that so prides itself upon the quality of its engineering should be so reticent in providing even basic end user data.
Can't even blame growth and marketing, Rega were always like this! I guess Roy must believe in the old adage, "if it ain't broke..."
Anyway, I'm glad people still love their vinyl and their turntables. There's something so quintessentially audiophile about the whole thing!
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gunners01
I currently have a Rega P3 that I’m generally happy with, but looking to upgrade and I’m in two minds. Go old school with Garrard 401 or keep with new tech and get a P10. Scenario A - Stock Rega P10 vs stock Garrard 401 (novice restored, I presume) - likely somewhat apples and oranges presuming the arms and cartridges are evenly matched. Scenario B - Stock Rega P10 vs. professionally restored, well sorted and highly optimized Garrard 401 idler drive platform with modern improved parts, well designed plinth and appropriate internal parts and engineering enhancements. Sorry, the modest little Rega belt drive simply cannot compete I am afraid. Do not skimp on the plinth. If you are seeking a really top level Garrard 301/401 plinth, then the Artisan Fidelity route is definitely where you want to be. They can tell you why Panzerholz is not necessarily the most suitable base material for these idler drives as well.
I listen to a wide range of music, from classic jazz, funk, soul and classic rock but admittedly i spend the majority of my vinyl time listening to thinks like Bowie, the Smiths, New Order, A Certain Ratio, Chameleons or similar.
Perfect musical genres to enjoy on the idler drive platform. Another nice thing about a well sorted out Garrard 301/401 is that they will likely hold value much better over time over a run-of-the-mill production Rega, as they have proven themselves over the years time and time again to be highly desirable legacy record players. They also are fairly bulletproof in terms of reliability and easy to maintain. |
Go with the P10. I own a P9 and its a vast improvement over a P3. What you get with a P10 is a near reference quality tonearm that offers many cartridge upgrades giving you a long term investment. As you might know Rega tables are known for PRAT which complements Pop/Rock which is your stated choice of music. |
I think your decision to go to someone like Chris is a good one. Idlers aren't alway plug and play so unless you're comfortable getting inside one it's good to make sure to buy from a reputable source. Audio Grail 401s blow my mind and I've almost pressed buy more than a few times on Ebay but I'm happy with the footprint of my current Thorens 124. By the way, I'm not sure the 301 is actually better sounding than the 401. I've talked to owners of both who say that the sexiness of the 301 can affect hearing a bit, although both tables are fantastic. |
@scar972 Great setup. How does the Raven stack up against the idlers?
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The idlers have more tone when compared to the Raven. This is partially due to the stacked ply wooden plinth I’m using, a different plinth material will likely yield different results.
I measure the wow and flutter of all 3 turntables and they measure pretty much the same with the Raven very slightly lower than the 401 and 301. For those that say idlers rumble and the effects are audible, I really don’t have this issue, this is largely the result of choice in footers being used under the table.
As for speed accuracy, I’d have to give the Raven the edge. Garrards speed accuracy is dependent on the motor pulley, especially changing from one speed to another. Pulleys are sold by a few different manufacturers and I haven’t tried them all. |
