Rega P10 v Complete rebuild Garrard 401!

can I just say that the Rega and Garrard appear in very different parts of the audio spectrum. The Rega is like a light sportscar and the Garrard a large 4X4.  The Rega is all about a lightness and quickness of sound without overhang - the Garrard is very muscular. They have great timing in common. Try and get to an audio show and you will get a chance to hear the type of sound that they make. I must say I always find it amusing that people using Garrards with their amazing bass often use valve amps - even single ended - yes i know some valve amps can do bass but... I digress.

The spacers for Rega arms are designed to go between the arm base and plinth under the three screws.  Some are individual shims allowing one to raise the arm by a millimeter or more, some are designed to have a few different options in the spacer so you have different options depending on the orientation of circular shaped spacer when you insert them.  You can only raise the back of the arm but since Rena arms are designed to work with their cartridges which are on the shorter side raising options are probably most efficacious. 

@senza 

I don't think it's anything to worry about. I never got any joy with mucking about with VTA once I'd set the cartridge alignment and tracking weight as optimally as I could.

It doesn't appear that Rega are too concerned with it either.

However, in the case of unorthodox cartridge shapes I believe that a adjuster/spacer is available if required by courtesy of Origin Live.

https://www.analogueseduction.net/origin-live-parts-and-accessories/origin-live-rega-rb-250300600-vta-adjuster.html

 

I’d like to know if it is possible with the REGA 3000 tonearm To changeVTA and azimuth or not ? I hear about spacers for dialing VTA… who can explain to me please ?

My Garrard 301 was fully refurbished by James Campbell  jec@afo.net in Pennsylvania. I also use his unfinished wood plinth for 12" arm.
My arm is the original Ortofon RMG 309. I use SPU cartridges -- Silver Meister MKii, Gold Reference, and a mono.
My phono preamp is Magi Phonomenal. SUT is Live! MC-10 with Hashimoto HM-3.
Overall spent less than $4K without cartridges. 
Just for a reference. 

Congrats on the choice of a Woodsong Garrard,
I have his 301 in the very substantial plinth. I prefer the look and feel of the 301 over the 401.
But I understand the performance is comparable.
My plinth is the dual arm board one. Excellent design and super solid. Chris is clearly one of the most knowledgable and skillful guys, He does all the work himself and is a perfectionist.

Decware ZP3 valve with Reel to Reel option..
Herron VTPH2 valve
Pass XP15 or 17 SS

Regards

So, it appears that Chris did use the Allnic 1201 when it was a current model but is now a dealer for Modwright. 

Hi Gunners01

if it was Chris at Woodsong I’m betting he recommended the Modwright PH 9.0 phono amp. I got one on his recommendation and it’s awesome, but I’m having some integration issues with my current Croft Series 7 power amp

@noromance 
yea, that may well be what chris suggested but can’t say for certain.  What I can say is that a) sounds familiar and b) that was about the price point.  
Just read reviews on it and nothing but superlatives.  
Have one?  More superlatives?

@gunners01 Allnic H1201? 

Still here and following the thread.  Fairly sure I will do the 301 but will likely pair my Harbeths with a pair of REL S812s first.  
Likely starting a new job in the new year. Once over that hurdle I will reach out to Chris at Woodsong and have him build a 301 for me.  
Since I still seem to have people’s attention, what phono pre-amp do you recommend?   Chris recommended something to me (I can’t recall) and I think he is trying to get a rep deal for them.  I currently have a Vincent Pho-701.  I’ve already rolled the tube (per counsel multiple places including Upscale Audio).   I’m happy with it but Chris at Woodsong swore blindly about the one he recommended.  What say you?

I have a 401 that is still set up 220 and has the 50hz pully, and 50hz strobe. I've changed 6-8 through the years. Easy. I sometimes swap the top if I find a deal. Been in a box for 15 years. I gave up on Garrards. I love um, but I use to work at a machine shop.. They fixed Sparta, QRK, and Russco platters.. I know I have 5 or 6 left.. I call the Garrard Killers..

They are TWICE as big, and twice the weight easy.. 9-16" tonearms.

I'm doing one out of black oak / red oak with Queen Ann Legs, very different...Matches my speakers with Queen Anns.. Close..:-)

HD, LOL 24/7 365 /  forever.. Just oil and maintain. Mine are all pulls from FM radio stations.. Just rollers and there is a few tricks to get the platter REAL quiet..

750 Fairchild, I had one that was nicked... Actually my all time favorite..

I like TD124 too, I have a couple.. For a smaller footprint, I think its pretty good also..

Regards

Well, you're bypassing the phono stage, so you're just using the line stage. It's the third tube from the left. 

Is that a telefunken? And which one is the line stage?

Try a 12AT7 in the Croft line stage.

And, that’s an MM cartridge...

I’m wondering if my cartridge is the problem. I’m using a Clearaudio Maestro 2 which I believe is a high output cartridge. Other than the volume issue it sounds great with the Modwright.

Oh, hey. Thanks for the response @noromance!@noromance!

Interesting you should ask. I upgraded both the amp and preamp right after I bought them to telefunken 12AX7’s. Got them from VTS in Michigan. Says “perfect mirror matched”. Even came in the original packaging from 69’. The modwright also has the upgraded tubes, the Sovtek’s and GE 6DJ8.

The issue I’m having is that even on the lowest volume setting it’s really loud, even with the gain setting on low on the phono amp. That’s what I meant by “mismatch”.

@petey15 Good for you! Have you rolled tubes in the Croft? What mismatch?

I am going for it. I’ve found an early model 401 (22k sn, flat light cover) in great shape. Getting it properly rebuilt, painted and set up with DAC piano black layered machined plinth. Schick 12” tonearm, two Schick graphite headshells, Hana mono and stereo cartridges, Seperate 301 power supply.

Now the question is what to put between it and my Klipch Forte III speakers. I’ve recently acquired a Modwright ph 9.0 phono amp and I still have my Croft acoustics micro 25 preamp and series 7 amp. Bypassing the built in mm Croft phono stage, the ph 9.0 takes it to another level by far. Still tinkering with that, but not sure if it’s a mismatch with the Croft system. Would appreciate any advice there. I’m going for the tube sound.

good to know there are other enthusiasts in DFW! Thanks.

Looks like you know your Garrard and Alfa Romeos...

Appreciate your advice - thanks!

OP just dropped off the radar. Hope he's okay.

petey153 posts

All things considered you should buy the Garrard. It will be far less painful and more rewarding than your car proclivities 

I am also in the DFW area. Contemplating between a tricked out Garrard 401 or Fern and Roby Montrose...

I drive an Alfa Romeo - should that make my decision easier? :)

@gunners01I purchased my 401 from a friend in Dallas, it has not been professionally refurbished and I feel this isn’t necessary if your Garrard is in decent condition. I enjoy being hands on which means I clean, lubricate, change out pulley, spark suppressor, etc. myself. They are relatively easy to work on, I also worked on the 301 myself. Garrards are built to last, and need very little maintenance to get going. Feel free to PM me if you’re needing any help along the way since we’re both in DFW.

@mglik That 301 in Canada is pick up only.

Hey Gunner.
If I were you, I would grab that Canadian 301:
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649600198-garrard-301-rosewood-shick-12-emt-tsd15-stillpoints/
A great deal at $5K!
Complete with good cartridge and good arm. It looks beautiful.
You would have a 301 for life!
There's that recommendation of his friend:

I just noticed talk about the 301 in Vancouver. The owner is a good friend of mine named Sam. He replaced it with a nauntais 301 fully done out with the big power supply. He also had a fr64s he  mentioned maybe selling. You could maybe work a deal with the arm if that arm interests you. Our dollar is very low right now too.

Thanks scar972.  Think we are all on lock-down right now.  Plus I’m pretty sure I’m going to go with the 401 and work with Chris.  

I looked at your pictures...wow what a system.  Looks like you have everything set up in your media room.  I’ve been tempted to do the same thing as the family rarely watches movies there anymore, plus I think the acoustics would be much better.  Just a bit cramped with all the other stuff I have in there. 

Curious where did you get your 401? And if you bought one that was not refurbished, where did you have it rebuilt?
best!

Thanks. Good info. I'd strongly recommend changing the idler. AudioSilente have one for around $120 and Artisan Fidelity $400. 

The idlers have more tone when compared to the Raven. This is partially due to the stacked ply wooden plinth I’m using, a different plinth material will likely yield different results.
I measure the wow and flutter of all 3 turntables and they measure pretty much the same with the Raven very slightly lower than the 401 and 301. For those that say idlers rumble and the effects are audible, I really don’t have this issue, this is largely the result of choice in footers being used under the table.
As for speed accuracy, I’d have to give the Raven the edge. Garrards speed accuracy is dependent on the motor pulley, especially changing from one speed to another. Pulleys are sold by a few different manufacturers and I haven’t tried them all.

@scar972 Great setup. How does the Raven stack up against the idlers?

I think your decision to go to someone like Chris is a good one. Idlers aren't alway plug and play so unless you're comfortable getting inside one it's good to make sure to buy from a reputable source. Audio Grail 401s blow my mind and I've almost pressed buy more than a few times on Ebay but I'm happy with the footprint of my current Thorens 124. By the way, I'm not sure the 301 is actually better sounding than the 401. I've talked to owners of both who say that the sexiness of the 301 can affect hearing a bit, although both tables are fantastic.

Go with the P10. I own a P9 and its a vast improvement over a P3. What you get with a P10 is a near reference quality tonearm that offers many cartridge upgrades giving you a long term investment. As you might know Rega tables are known for PRAT which complements Pop/Rock which is your stated choice of music. 

gunners01

I currently have a Rega P3 that I’m generally happy with, but looking to upgrade and I’m in two minds. Go old school with Garrard 401 or keep with new tech and get a P10.

Scenario A - Stock Rega P10 vs stock Garrard 401 (novice restored, I presume) - likely somewhat apples and oranges presuming the arms and cartridges are evenly matched.

Scenario B - Stock Rega P10 vs. professionally restored, well sorted and highly optimized Garrard 401 idler drive platform with modern improved parts, well designed plinth and appropriate internal parts and engineering enhancements. Sorry, the modest little Rega belt drive simply cannot compete I am afraid.

Do not skimp on the plinth. If you are seeking a really top level Garrard 301/401 plinth, then the Artisan Fidelity route is definitely where you want to be. They can tell you why Panzerholz is not necessarily the most suitable base material for these idler drives as well.

I listen to a wide range of music, from classic jazz, funk, soul and classic rock but admittedly i spend the majority of my vinyl time listening to thinks like Bowie, the Smiths, New Order, A Certain Ratio, Chameleons or similar.

Perfect musical genres to enjoy on the idler drive platform.

Another nice thing about a well sorted out Garrard 301/401 is that they will likely hold value much better over time over a run-of-the-mill production Rega, as they have proven themselves over the years time and time again to be highly desirable legacy record players. They also are fairly bulletproof in terms of reliability and easy to maintain.

bukanona,

"If you look into Rega technical specification and manual you’ll find close to nothing. So how to buy turntable about which manufacturer speaks only about materials used? Of course in our century figures means nothing, marketing means everything."

Good point! Of course it's been that way for a quite a while now but it's still quite a disturbing thought to imagine Rega as the new Linn!

If I remember correctly Rega did once face the odd criticism of their turntables running ever so slightly fast, but they seem to have brushed that aside fairly easily (unlike the brilliant but doomed Pink Triangle which went down mainly due to an inability to shake off persisting speed stability rumours).

I like Rega products (esp the loudspeakers of yore) but it was disappointing that a company that so prides itself upon the quality of its engineering should be so reticent in providing even basic end user data.

Can't even blame growth and marketing, Rega were always like this! I guess Roy must believe in the old adage, "if it ain't broke..."

Anyway, I'm glad people still love their vinyl and their turntables. There's something so quintessentially audiophile about the whole thing!  

@gunners01 
I just noticed talk about the 301 in Vancouver. The owner is a good friend of mine named Sam. He replaced it with a nauntais 301 fully done out with the big power supply. He also had a fr64s he  mentioned maybe selling. You could maybe work a deal with the arm if that arm interests you. Our dollar is very low right now too.

I own a 301 grease in woodsong plinth, 2 emt direct drives, and kuzma reference. Enjoy them all. If i was forced to pick just one it would be the 301. Im not familiar with the p10 but from what I've seen in the past from Rega you can do much better in a belt drive. I did have a friends p9 years ago as a loaner. 

Hi,
if you like tweeking and want to admire your work in the end go for Garrard, more sexy, on the contrary RP10 cannot go wrong.
Idlers have a certain charm (and flaws) but considering the music you are mainly listening then Rega may be a better bet.
I share ndevamp comment about Alfa Romeo.

@cd318 Indeed. I had a LP12 for years. Thought it was awesome until I tried the 401. I lived through the whole Linn/Naim era. Luckily Glenn Croft and my love of tubes rescued me from going that moneypit route.

Gunner
I'm also in the DFW area and running both Garrard 401, Garrard 301, and a TW Acustic belt drive turntable. Both of my Garrard plinths are piano gloss Macassar Ebony stacked ply plinths. I can help with your turntable decision if you're looking to audition or needing opinions. My system is here, take a look and see if you like my set up.
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4524

Regarding the 301 sounding better the 401, this is just not true.

noromance,

You know I can remember a time when some (most?) of the British audio press used to lambast decks such as the Garrards and the Technics. It was all Rega/Linn back then in the late 70s/80s.

It’s quite heart-warming to see how things eventually turned out.

I'll always remain suspicious of reviewers who generally do more far harm than good. Their burying of MiniDisc, a fabulous format, was just another crime on their money grubbing hands.

Mglik.
Would love to see pictures of your Woodsong 301.

Maybe when you get time, you could take some and add a virtual system to your profile?

@cd318 Considering many recordings from that period blow away 2019 ones, it's not that improbable!

A Rega P10 v Garrard 401?

Dare I suggest that something is seriously wrong with the whole Rega approach if this is remotely a contest. 

A 2019 design v one from 45/55 years ago? It shouldn't really be a contest, or should it?

My dad had a low level Garrard back in the late 70s and it was a lovely deck indeed. Still, I would like to think that a P10 turntable is very near the state of the art sonically today given its minimalist design.

A little more traditional looking and complete ready to rock your world!

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649600198-garrard-301-rosewood-shick-12-emt-tsd15-stillpoints/

Hey Uber,
Appreciate your echos of my comments.
Yes, that USAM 301 is an attractive unit. Seems well beyond the “classic” 301 set up. And the new Woodsong idler wheel and new pulley probable make it very usable. Feel we have done our best to guide Gunner as vinyl and Garrard fans. I looked for my 301 for years. Got lucky to have found a pristine Woodsong 301 with Ortofon 309 arm. And Chris at Woodsong tells me that my $4k plinth is a special one he no longer offers utilizing Panzerholtz super dense wood. It certainly is a silver lining in these trying times for us audiophiles and music lovers. Special extra time to love our hobby. Wishing you and all our chat group folks to stay healthy and upbeat!

I have been in communication with the seller of that 301 on USAM and they are most definitely open to offers to sell quickly in today's climate.

If I don't stop looking it might end up next to my 401, so please buy it Gunner!
😉😉😉

Hey Gunner,
I just checked out that ad and the Acoustand Audio Twin Arm Skeletal Plinth on the Acoustand site. To buy that plinth new from that company installed would be $527. My Woodsong plinth was $4,000! That 301 is probably about 7 out of 10 mostly for cosmetics. It does have the Woodsong idler wheel and new pulley which are the most important parts. It does seem to be in quite good working order. I would offer the guy $2,000 USD. He is now asking  $2,227 which is a very fair price. And get that Ortofon 309 for $2500. It is what I have and seems to be a great and very appropriate arm for a 301.  I would sell that entry level Vincent phono stage and invest around $1,000 in one of the many good phono stages. And also make an investment in a mid level MC cartridge. I suggested an Ortofon to match the arm and as a good value. I would be quite content with such a rig. Would consider sending it to Chris at Woodsong someday for an upgrade, or not. One simple and excellent self upgrade would be to buy a Pureaudio Tenuto gun metal mat for about $400. I have one... big improvement. In any event, $2k for a decent and well functioning 301 is a good deal and a great start! I would not be overly concerned with having the “best”.  Good enough is good enough. And you will have a quite livable amount of the Garrard Sound.

I am sure it has been mentioned but check with Chris at Artisan Fidelity.  He always has options for plinths and fully completed 401's.