Would like recommendations for interconnects for both analog and digital side to an integrated Rogue Cronus amp from a Nottingham/EAR 834P on one side and an Antelope Zodiac DAC on the other side. What should I be looking at and what kind of budget should I set. I'm thinking up to $500 for a pair but have no idea. Thanks for all advice.
IC's - I just went through all my cables laying around last week looking for what to keep and what to move. I thought I was pretty content with all things gold and was using Stealth PGS and Gabriel Gold Rapture. I wove in Jade Moontails and DACT Dual Connect gold, and my own pair of DIY solid gold cables. I still wasn't getting rid of a few things I did not like so I ordered a pair of Silnote Morpheus Ref 3 with the clear expectation that if I did not like them I would send them back under his policy. They sent me a 1.5 M pair of XLR's for the 1 M price of 395. These were already burned in. I put them into the pre-to-amp slot and there wasn't really any difference to the Gabriels. Then I took my head out of my butt and tried them in the dac to pre slot and the magic happened. They removed my smearing, improved bass clarity, and gave a brighter but more relaxed presentation. So I evaluated the pre to amp side and found the Jade Moontails the best match for now. I will be ordering another set of Silnotes soon for the pre to amp position. Hs combination of alloys really hit it out of the park for me.
PC's and digital: I use DCCA flat ribbon and Verastarr flat ribbon power cables and a Shunyata over-priced Sigma USB cable. I can't offer much in recommendations for those cables. The PC's are smooth and quiet.
Speaker cables: Silversmith Fideliums.
There are often mentions of having a one-company loom from start to finish, but I have never heard why that would be helpful. It would seem that too much of a good thing might result. Not sure.
In summary, IC's for me were never about getting the next digit of purity out of copper but looking for combinations of alloys to give you the best of all metals like copper, silver, and gold. And to explore mechanical configurations that might offer some electrical advantages outside of the standard round wire in a twisted bundle. But the wire metallurgy has seemed to be more impactful to me.
Certainly take advantage of trial periods to try before you commit from the reputable dealers.
I will try the Coppers by themselves, without the Lokius and with the Lokius in conjunction with the Silvers, as you've suggested.
@audphile1:
Well, no, as I use the Lokius with most CDs, now. It makes sense to me to demo the cable in exactly the same way I'm currently using the Silver Reference. At least that strikes me as the most logical approach-- an "apples to apples" comparison
I recognize that I can compare both cables without the Lokius in the system and I'll certainly do that but that's not how I'll ultimately be using whichever cable I settle on in the end.
@stuartk fwiw I obsessively test both inter-mixed and identical cables end-to-end from sources, to preamps, to amps. In different types and orders too. While each cable is "not supposed to have a signature" according to some folks self guided rules... imo they ALL leave a signature good, neutral, or bad. Each pair of cables, including the in/out on the Lokius itself, and downstream cables of different types, will all impact the results somehow. Try different combinations and orders of what you have for now. It can be fun.
You can try putting your best pair first in order and down-order from there. Or, can even reverse the order of quality for a different affect. I'm doing this now in a fairly transparent all tube system (tube DAC, tube Preamp, tube Monos amps), with same brand OFC copper IC pairs first up front, OCC copper IC pairs downstream in reverse quality order. Sometimes my full loom of all OCC or all silver end-to-end is not the best. The "blend" of the two types and orders can also produce a rewarding result too. Try it with whatever you got. Best of Luck.
Another wrinkle-- unfortunately, The Cable Co. only had one pair of the Coppers in their lending library and the Schiit Lokius requires two pair of ICs ( I locate it between DAC and integrated). This means I'll have to compare the Silvers and Coppers without the benefit of being able to tweak the sound with the Lokius. So, from my point of view, this will be a less-than-ideal test but it's the best I can do.
@stuartk ...This may make it more difficult to choose between the Silver and Copper cables. We'll see. . .
Good point and agree with your suggestion. It can be system dependent, and results can vary. While I have both in other brands I went from silver back to occ copper. Silver was great in my former system, not the case in a newer setup, fwiw. Just gotta try it and see. What works well in one persons setup might not in others.
Haven't received them yet. I'll report back once I've had a chance to hear them.
The Hegel H390 is both more resolving and less colored than any integrated I've owned and as a result, differences in SQ between CDs are highlighted. This may may it more difficult to choose between the Silver and Copper cables. We'll see. . .
If you call and speak with them directly, I think most small-medium sized cable companies nowadays will let you return their cables within a week or two if you don’t like them. You just need to get specifics and details and then be sure you adhere to the return timing requirements.
I just ordered a pair of A. Zen Absolute Coppers from The Cable Co. lending library to try out as a potential replacement for my current A. Zen Silver Reference RCA IC's. If I like them, I will be selling my Silvers.
Rob Fritz at Audio Art is one of the nicest guys I've met through my audio dealings and I've found his products perform very well in my system. Of course, there are many other small, direct-sales cable companies.
Soix Yes I will pick of an AZ silver at some point, maybe after the holidays. Other priorities are kicking in at the moment but this has been great fun
I had the same “wow” moment the first time I put AZ cables in my system. IME they do take some time to settle in, mostly in the treble region, but the fact that you like what you’re hearing right away is a good sign for sure. As I mentioned earlier, I find the Silver Ref to be a significant step up from the Matrix ll, so I’d encourage you to try them if you can — buy used and you’ll have very little risk as AZ cables sell pretty easily. For a while I used the Silver Ref from DAC to pre and Matrix from pre to amp and it worked really well, but I eventually went with all Silver Ref. Anyway, FWIW and congrats on your new find. Enjoy!
@fastfreightYes agree with you and I may still audition some more cables from the Cable Company.
And yet another update: I played Bill Evans Live at the Vanguard on my TT the other night and it just completely sings. Then I switched the Zen cable over to the DAC (successfully this time). All I can say is Wow!. A vast improvement.
It was suggested to try the Acoustic Silver and I'm considering it.
I think you did the right thing assembling your components and then considering cables. While I wanted to not believe more expensive (more than Blue Jeans) cables would make a difference, I learned, to my ears, they make a huge difference. Like everything, it is impossible to demo everything, and everyone has their favorites. I started with the Cable Company, and as discussed, I tried several types; Synergistic, Audience AU 24 SX, Shunyata Research and another. Power cords were first, and I think they had the most impact. I chose Audience, bought some from the Cable Company, and then competed my system with AU 24SX interconnects and speaker cables used on Audiogon etc.
I really liked the resolution and smoothness of the AU24 SX.
Then I had an in home demo of Kubala - Sosna Elation cables. Wow. Bass and midrange excelled and the high end resolution was also great. So I sold all my Audience stuff (easily) and now have a 'full loom' of Elation. I learned that what you may think are very resolving or tingly sounding cables may actually be from a deficiency in the midrange.
I like copper way better (smoother) than silver, and have found that matching all your cables in your system makes a difference. The Cable Company may not be where you choose to buy everything, but having three companies stuff at the same time is the way to go if you are auditioning. Very hard to compare if only one cable at a time. My thoughts...Ken
@decooneyThanks - no sidetrack at all. Yes I briefly played with a few tubes, in fact I have box sitting here of matched tubes - gold lions, rca's and a few others. I tried a reissued Mullard in the preamp spot and it was awful - not listenable actually....tried it again with the same result. I swapped out the JJ tube for a tungsol and I've been pleased with it. I'll get back to the tube thing eventually. @ghdprenticeThanks also - I'll need to reread your post and think about it some more. Generally understand what you are saying - need to wrap my head around it. @audphile1thanks for the suggestion that drove me hear - much appreciated
@smaarch1 Not to sidetrack you too much on your interconnect thread but wanted to ask for ya., Have you already been down the small-tube rolling path with your Rogue integrated yet? (i.e replacing the stock original JJ 12aU7 12aX7 tubes). Can be a nice improvement and will benefit you on your interconnect realization too.
Back in 2017 I recall several groups of Rogue Cronos and Cronos Magnum II owners were haggling with swapping out trying various NOS, RCAs, new-repro Mullard’s, and landing on PSVANE and Gold Lyons replacing all (12au7, 12ax7) of the small stock low cost signal and driver tubes and very happy with the results. I have tried a decent NOS collection myself (25 different matched pairs of NOS, including the best of the very best early vintage Mullard Blackburns) and NOW just run the newer version small PSVANE (2021+), quite smooth. Allows one to save off the rare NOS stuff too. My new theory is good small signal/driver tubes first and good caps inside the amp(s) before more interconnect upgrades. Makes a notable and engaging difference with the flow of the music, fwiw. If you have not tried it yet in your Rogue, it can be a fairly affordable upgrade and change for the better. Best of luck.
One of the attributes of components and of a system which I found really really difficult to manage is adding too much highlighted detail so one’s system brings out flaws. High lighted detail can be very rewarding when listening to your system but gets in the way of listening to music. I got a pretty good handle on it about 20 years ago when I had a system I called my “reference system”. The difference in venue and mastering techniques were in my face… I enjoyed getting lost in the space” of a symphony hall, but it got in the way of falling into the music. This was not an ear bleed system at all. But poor recordings were emphasized as poor recordings.
I found that reading through professional reviews I could actually figure out if the component was going to enhance or detract from this tendency. Over the time since when I have upgraded components my system has improved detail and nuance and lot it’s unnatural emphasis highlighting detail. So all recordings sound better. It took me thirty years to figure this out and how to manage it. But it has been very worthwhile.
Hopefully, this is useful for you to think about. But, the good news, I think, is that the difference you describe sounds like new cables, and if interconnects have only a couple dozen hours on them, making bad albums sound worse will probably go away as the break in.
This attribute in combination with the desire to enhance rhythm and pace is what component by component led me to Audio Reseach tubed equipment. The music first with the detail in realistic and natural emphasis.
glad to hear you like the Zens! I’ve used many different interconnects throughout the years after selling the AZ matrix II and silver II years ago and recently came back to Acoustic Zen once again. They just let the music flow.
Thanks ghdprentice. I think what I am also hearing is the difference between good, really good recordings and not so good recordings. Playing some jazz tonight - all Blue Note series. Dexter Gordon's One Flight Up has always sounded superb, as does Cannonball Adderley's "Know What I Mean" and they sound even better now. Art Blakey's Just Cool'n never sounded especially great - and the gap is wider now.
the good, the bad and the ugly........truth I guess.
Cool. The sound more relaxed or laid back is a thing. Remember interconnects can take a hundred or more hours to break in. Typically they will sound bright with less bass and a bit unnatural at first. As they break in they get more natural sounding, less bright. Also good interconnects typically will make the biggest difference on the lower standard signal (Phonostage), but of course will have large impacts on all components.
Something of an update. The Acoustic Zen Matriz II arrived just before Thanksgiving and I managed to get them installed although it didn't exactly go as planned. I had initially intended to install them an the Antelope DAC - the connectors I think are too big and touching. I'll try once gain. They are installed from the phono stag to amp and because of their heft have created a fair amount of havoc with gear placement...but there they are.
My very first impression upon hearing them was an oh crap moment and out loud I stated something to the effect of: Great, now I need new speakers (Totem Hawks). What I initially heard reminded me of the B&W 305's the Totem's replaced - Bright, too bright. But this isn't true. Arriving back from the holiday, I've spent some more time listening and there is jut more of everything. More and more accurate lower register especially.
I actually didn't realize how much of a difference they have made until I switched back listening to the DAC. The gap between the antelope zodiac and the analog side is now wider - the exact opposite of what I was hoping to accomplish. That I can eek more out of my analog side - that is just awesome.
Finally: I don't know if this is a thing but I keep thinking the music just sounds more at ease....not even sure I can explain it.
I'll listen some more, have another go at trying to use them on the Antelope...and see. Not at all disappointing - very surprised actually by it all.
Thanks everyone
@louis - Yes High Fidelity cables are a "killer" of sound. The worst sounding cables I’ve ever heard including a $750,000 system whose owner immediately upon hearing GroverHuffman.com cables, purchased them at 5% of the high end High Fidelity cables. I’ve heard them at multiple shows and walked out of those exhibits-just bad sound. No one should put giant magnets around their cable. It’s bad technology. I’m a beta tester for cables for 20 years. I have heard everything from Monster Cable 300s to Transparent/Nordost/Cardas/Kubala Sosna, etc. high end cables. I also don’t like Transparent high end cables in systems I’ve heard. Kubala Sosna are very warm sounding, inoffensive cables, especially suitable to solid state gear. Matching cables to gear and one’s sound preference is the only way to determine a proper fit.
I’ve heard Silversmith Audio Filedum speaker cable in two systems and it has received rave reviews (compared to $18K cables). I have not heard them in my system where I use GroverHuffman Pharoahs. About the same price, moderate price relative to the high quality of sound and construction/design. Do not buy High Fidelity cable-it’s nothing personal, just horrible sound in about a dozen systems I’ve heard/left.
If you can stretch your budget, my recommendation is, unquestionably, High Fidelity Cables. Their ‘Reveal’ line is their entry point, but they are killer.
Yes, I have owned the GR and GC IC at the same time (and also GR, GC, and Hexlink Golden 5C speaker cables). I had a slight preference for the GC IC in my system. The GR IC was very good (perhaps more clear and balanced overall), but the GC added more fullness a more liquid sound, and I didn't find the highs to be rolled off (or not to a noticeably detrimental level, IME).
This was in a system with a Simaudio CD player and integrated amplifier, so I suspect that YMMV with tubes or different SS equipment. I only mentioned the GC/GR because AZ was recommended, which I have also used and am familiar with. That, and the comment to steer away from Cardas, because I find some elements of AZ and Cardas to be similar, yet in other aspects not at all.
The AP solo crystal IC and SC are also very good, and I've also owned both, as well as Oval 9 and 12 SC.
@gary_c "...you will probably also like the Cardas Golden Cross or Golden Reference, although someone else had a different opinion. I went from AZ Matrix Ref II to Golden Cross and found it to sound more spacious, fuller and more rounded, yet with a little more clarity than the Matrix. I wouldn’t rule them out.".
@gary_c having owned both Golden Cross (prior) and Golden Reference (current), by chance have you tried both and compared the two?
If you don’t like the slight rolloff and added plushness of the GCs, you might like the GRs a little more. I sold off all of my GCs to a Pass Labs owner who loves them for the older version amps that were brighter. I bought the GRs for another system I was gonna build. Decided to swap the GRs to my main system and using the GRs right now on my mono tube amps. Now comparing to my other Analysis Plus Crystals OCC interconnects. I'm not sure the GRs will displace the AP crystals.
The GRs are very close to the same design as the Cardas Clear Reflections which have the newer connector ends. I think I like the Golden Refs better than the Clear Reflections I demo’d earlier this year The GRs have started opening up with some time on them. Nice tone, texture, depth without being overly plush. They also work nicely with newer design tube amps using new repro small signal and output tubes too.
More excellent advice - Thanks @gary_c I’m going to hold on The Cable Company for now but you’ve given me what I need to understand how it works.
There was some thought earlier which brought me to the AZ cables and the suggestion was to use the Matriz on the phono side and the Silver on the Dac side. Something about this advice sounds right. Let’s see what happens.
In the meantime a simple switch last week of a cheap interconnect and a less cheap one (mogami cable) between sides most definitely reveals a difference and it isn’t subtle.
I forgot to mention that I haven't tried the AZ Silver Ref II; was leary of silver at the time. Soix has an interesting point about trying it, if you like the MR II.
I agree with the AZ Matrix Reference II being very good, especially for the money. If you like it, you will probably also like the Cardas Golden Cross or Golden Reference, although someone else had a different opinion. I went from AZ Matrix Ref II to Golden Cross and found it to sound more spacious, fuller and more rounded, yet with a little more clarity than the Matrix. I wouldn't rule them out.
Does anyone have experience with the cable company lending library? And is it worth a try?
I have used The Cable Co in the past; it's been a while. They typically like to loan out three different sets of cables at a time, and give you enough time to allow two weekends of use. I'm not sure what their current fee is, but found it a great way to get the flavor of different brands and evaluate system compatibility. They also have a database which I believe is compiled by user feedback. They may be able to make specific recommendations based on your equipment and goals, but I'm not sure if this is without bias regarding certain manufacturers. I listened to their advice, but stuck to trying the brands and models that I had narrowed down based on my own research.
I have also found dealers, out-of-state no less, that were willing to let me try out cables if I was willing to place a hold on my credit card until I returned them. I was able to borrow some very high-end cables at one time doing this.
With all the system variables and recommendations, it would be best to try several brands IMO, if you are willing to put the time into this.
@soixthanks I like this recomendation. It will be a fun learning experience. @safebelayersound thoughts - thanks @kellypassuming you are asking about input impedance on the amp line in?
Thanks evveryone
I think you’re going in the exact right direction with Acoustic Zen and was just about to recommend their Silver Reference. I have both the Silver and Matrix Ref ll, and the SR is a better and more refined-sounding interconnect. I’d highly suggest you get this to compare, and if you don’t think it’s better than the MR ll you can sell it for little/no loss, FWIW...
You did well to get the acoustic zen. The owner and cable designer is a first class guy. Very honorable.
As for the advice of not buying better or worse cables, make of it what you will. I have $65 interconnects that sound at least as good as some $800 ones I've used. System synergy, not based off of cost, but rather the componentry. An $8k amp with $100 ICs might sound better than uber costly ICs because of electronic dynamics that an engineer may understand or NOT. Everyone has an opinion in this hobby, but only you will know if it ends up working in the end.
If you want some really nice cables, built well, perform well, go with what your gut tells you is right. For me, that was Cullen cables and cables made by Jason Terpstra (Virtue Audio). Another honorable, straight forward, and honest guy who happens to make cables.
Goodluck. Feel free to pm me if you're interested.
I know this is not an option for most, but I build my own interconnect cables utilizing canare connectors and cable, I also make my own speaker cables - the result so far has been satisfactory while keeping the cost down as I also build for my close friends and family members.
Well I couldn't find any teflon coat hangers or astroglide so I bought a pair of Acoustic Zen Matrix Reference II cables this morning
Thanks @audiophile1
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