One of the most patriotic and traditional American values is to hold those in elected offices accountable for their actions. Sometimes the judgement is deservedly harsh.
Quincy Jones Interview
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I care too, but, regardless on Q's biased insults to Trump, I value that as if toddler spoken same way. There's no power to argue in this case to criticize the old man that literally and clearly speaks not from his clear mind. There are much more of the Hollywood artists do insult Mr. Trump including ones we discuss and adore listening to dontcha realize?, but he only chuckles to that foolishness and so do I. |
As someone who spent the first half of his life as a professional musician, musicians often have very definite and sometimes limited views on what they like and don't like. I have friend who is a chef and she feels the same way about restaurants - very narrow view of what they like and don't like. Quincy's opinions are just that - his opinions. OTOH, it's always refreshing to hear someone state what's really on their minds. It's a very dangerous thing to do if you have anything to lose. |
Great response Chayro, that is just the point, Q's opinions are just that and to read into it more than what it was to me is missing the point. To me, at least it was a series of events that happened and he witnessed. Really, what does an 85 year old guy got to lose? Another point he made that wasn't discussed in the criticism of him was how he stayed connected to his roots of poverty, the empathy towards others, funny how many missed or omitted that point which gave more credence to many of his other opinions. Agreed, the Brando comment would have been better left unsaid. |
Let's not diminished the words of Quincy Jones. The man has done it all and obviously has nothing to lose and at this point and time in his life can be as unfiltered as he wants. Anybody that knows anything about Hollywood and the music industry understands that as far-fetched and as raw as some of this may appear, that there's a whole lot of believe ability to this interview. We only get two times to be soooo unfiltered, one as a child and the other as elderly men and women. Cheers |
I totally agree with Quincy's assessments. He was there. The music industry is/was very corrupted and many terrible singers and musician were popular not because of their talent. The Beatles were not very good musicians. That is a fact. You know when you are in the studio with musicians and they can't play a lick without backup musicians and help of Engineers. Singers that can't sing live also fall in this category. This, like professional sports is about putting butts in the seats and getting fans and making money. Jazz was absolutely not like that. The best didn't make anything and were quite often ripped off by club owner and producers. The problem with the younger generations in my opinion is that the don't believe or actually listen to the older people that "WERE THERE". The bad things that Quincy Jones talks about actually happened. What's the difference between Elvis and Chuck Berry? Chuck Berry started it all. Elvis stole most of the music and style. Don't get me wrong, he did great. But Chuck Berry was black and Elvis was white. Simple as that. Real world hard assessments and real history and not whitewashed history is what we really need. Some of my best and favorite albums and music were produced by Quincy Jones. If you look at his older stuff, he had the absolute best music, musicians and singers on each album. Artist would trip over themselves trying to get on his albums. 1. In the Heat of the Night, with Ray Charles with lyrics by Alan and Marilyn Bergman???? 2. Gula Matari (Freddie Hubbard and Hubert Laws), Valerie Simpson, Herbie Hancock, Bob James???????, Eric Gale, Toots Thielemans, Ron Carter, Ray Brown, Milt Jackson and many more. Come on now!!!! 3. Sounds (my favorite).l Simple love tell me a bedtime story, and superwoman song by Patti Austin. This album had Tom Scott, Herbie Hancock, Eric Gale, George Young, Nick Ashford, Chaka Khan, Valerie Simpson, Michael Breaker. Oh boy and many more. 4. You got it bad Girl. Summer in the City. Dave Grusin and Valerie Simpson. First Time I saw your face. Absolutely wonderful. Valerie Simpson was wonderful. Aretha Franklin on Daydreaming. 5. Body Heat. Listen to Everything must Change on that Album. That was Bernard Ighner baby. The best music and version out there. You can't help but tear up when you hear that version. Wow.. 6. The Dude 7. Roots 8. I heard that. Most of this was Jazz so it didn't get to the general public. But this was real music. I agree with him. Most musicians and singers today don't have a musical background. most singers can't hold a note and fluctuate so often to cover up their inability to hold a note. A long time ago, I took my very young daughter (who is a ballet dancer) to a Roberta Flack concert (when she still had her voice), just to show her what a real singer sounds like. My daughter was so impressed to hear someone that could really sing. she thought she did before, but now knew different. popular music today is about making money, not about making real music. Check out some of the songs and albums I listed. read the who's who list of artist on each album. Amazing. Thanks and enjoy |
81 vs. 85 is biggest contributor to his verbal mishaps. Please see his prior interviews before he got biased against Trump. When there goes on dementia, I don't think that making fun of one who suffers makes sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5gYjUslrtw My favorite album is Big Band Bossa Nova |
When I was in music school I once went into a practice room where someone had carved into the wooden case of an upright piano: "Legit is dead. Jazz lives!" I didn’t know that kind of snobbery still existed till just now. I doubt most of the musicians cited by Minori share the view that Beatles were not very good musicians. IMO/YMMV. |
When I was in high school, I picked up some accordion and guitar skills on my own without learning sheet music. I put together some folk dancing composition and was presented to perform it by concert organizers. I clearly was NOT ready and my practicing were going literally nowhere. I was able to get most of it right, but wasn't able to sound correct and at higher speeds would certainly trip even on well brushed-out pieces, but on stage -- it's all so different and I was backed up fo sho! I'm 99% sure that most of the pop bands backed up by pros including pop singers. To tell you the truth uptill now I can't get it right and my accordion is SOLD. |
Ringo Starr was considered by some (many? most?) to be the worst musician in The Beatles (not true; John was ;-), yet he had a fair number of defenders who were themselves well respected by their Jazz peers. One such was Gregg Bissonnette, the drummer in Maynard Ferguson’s Big Band, who is one of Ringo’s most vocal defenders. Some people get, some don’t. |
I was at a party in the early 70s after working on a Delaney and Bonnie show in Honolulu. Delaney wound up sitting next to me and we talked for a long time about stuff…amazing guy…he said he thought Ringo was the best rock and roll drummer in music, period, and he'd recently been hanging around with the English dudes. I thought that was pretty cool, although hey…those sort of statements are taken with a grain of salt of course, but to say that the Beatles weren't good musicians is ridiculous…I've been a professional musician for 50 years and remain astonished by Beatles music, and I mix live concerts with the best musicians on the planet. John wrote songs that still resonate everywhere and although he couldn't play like John Scofield or Joe Pass, who cares really? Get the Hollywood Bowl concert recording re-mix and ask yourself if they play well during incessant screaming (did they have monitors? I wonder)…they did play beautifully, utterly kick ass, and that's sort of what defined them in the early years. Jazz geniuses often perform Beatles stuff because it's simply great music, and if people don't agree with that I don't think it matters. |
Okay regarding Jimi Hendrix being scared or afraid I have to laugh, that isn’t true and that is not what happened. Quincy FAILED to mention that Miles Davis loved Jimi’s playing and wanted to play with him. Miles when asked about Jimi Hendrix was quoted "That mothefucking Machine Gun"! The issue was that Miles wanted $50,000.00 up front to play. Guess what, it didn’t happen. You have to remember that Jimi’s manger Mike Jeffrey didn’t want any group except for the original Jimi Hendrix Experience with Noel redding on bass. Rumor has it that he Jeffrey broke up the Band of Gypsys with Buddy Miles on drums. Many Jazz musicians were barely making it and saw how much Jimi was making as an performer. There was no afraid in the story. Also remember that Miles attended Jimi’s funeral which says a lot right there. Where was Quincy jones then? Chasing Peggy Lipton around the room most likely! Jimi did play with various musicians including John McLaughlin who we know became famous later on. Jimi had a scheduled jam with the Grateful Dead but blew them off that evening after meeting up with a girl. Quincy is a great producer but is spinning tales of BS now. |
John Lennon was a very good rhythm guitarist (Don Everly was a FANTASTIC one!). Is Quincy Jones even aware of the function rhythm guitar plays in Rock ’n’ Roll music? I doubt it. That is just one example of what makes his opinion of The Beatles as musicians irrelevant. The fact that playing rhythm guitar does not take a lot of technique does not mean it is easy to do well, or that it does not require skills of a particular sort. Technique is a matter of the body being trained to perform physical acts, and is only one element of musicianship. Part of superior musicianship is knowing what NOT to play (a non-technique skill), and that is a major element in the playing of rhythm guitar. Rock ’n’ Roll music greatly benefits from superior rhythm guitar parts. That’s why Jeff Lynne’s production of Tom Petty was so successful; there are acoustic rhythm guitar parts all over that album, and Petty’s music is the better for it. The thing is, Jazz guys don’t respect Rock ’n Roll as a music, and don’t understand the principles involved that make one practitioner of it superior to another. The skill set involved in R & R music are very different from that in Jazz. As Keith Moon replied when asked if he could play in The Buddy Rich Big Band: "No, and Buddy Rich couldn’t play in The Who." |
“The only justification for looking down on anyone, is that you're going to stop and pick them up” - Quincy Jones “I tell my kids and I tell proteges, always have humility when you create and grace when you succeed, because it's not about you” - Quincy Jones “I was the most subtle person in the world” - Quincy Jones Something is wrong with this picture. |
Sorry, I have to disagree humbly. It is well documented that the beetles weren't very good musicians. However, set that aside for a minute. When you put excellent musicians that spent their life in classical or other music training in the same room with a bunch of people that didn't have such training, many times (not always), there will be a marked difference in skill sets. That is what Quincy Jones is talking about. It was probably a little anger over how really great jazz musicians weren't appreciated by the general public. Mostly because, (yes I have to go there), it was considered Black music or Devil's music. It was not mainstream and was not accepted by the younger people as much. So, you see these less talented young people getting paid!!!! and the public going crazy (not all the public liked the beetles by-the-way). The best musicians on the planet (Jazz and blues artist) weren't even noticed for various reasons. some I mentioned earlier. and yes, that would be a sore spot for someone like Quincy. Look at Miles Davis. When exactly did he really start to make real money? Not accounting for horrible companies, managers, and payola. It was probably around bitches Brew. When He went more mainstream with fusion and other avenues. Not pure jazz. Couldn't make real money that way. Younger people tend to not want to hear what older people (that were there and experienced it all) have to say. they choose to believe what they want to believe instead of appreciating what the ones that were in the mix of it all saw, experienced and heard. I remember some of the parties with the "beautiful people". entertainers, athletes, wannabies, etc. bowls of drugs on tables for anyone that wanted. people slept with almost whomever they wanted. it was really wild and crazy. not in a good way. If you wanted to advance, you slept with people, you took drugs just to be part of the in-crowd. I watched and learned, and didn't participate, but realized that once the door was opened to certain things, it was really hard for people to close it. Quincy Jones is one of the few remaining people that has been there and done that and bought the tee shirt. Again, if you can, go look at his albums when he was the producer. See the names of the artist that clamored to be on each and every one of his albums. Sinatra asked Quincy to produce him. Sinatra!!!! man oh man. Michael Jackson!!!! So yeah, when he talks I would listen. He didn't sound addled. He sounded like he finally didn't care who's toes he stepped on. People put items and groups on pedestals. The Beetles???? yes, I appreciate their music. But great musicians??? no way. Because he was Black, James Brown had to agree to open for the new group the Rolling Stones. James Brown opened for them when he was most popular. That was only because he was black. However, read the interview about the Rolling Stones. They said that he naturally killed and they had to follow an impossible act. They learned his style and used it. It is what it is. so yes, I read a little anger and resentment in his interview. People are saying "why is he saying this now instead of earlier" Well he did in some ways, I remember other interviews, but, also why are women coming forward now about sexual assaults that happened years ago? Because they feel it is time and now the repercussions may not be as bad. and maybe they feel it is time to get some things off their chest. maybe. Also, the interviewer asked him pointed questions. He probably figured, what the hell, what do I have to lose? |
Minori, it's Beatles, not beetles. Paul developed into one of the finest bass players in rock. George was a very good guitarist. It's also inaccurate to say that jazz and blues players are the best in the world. There are first rate musicians in all types of music. Other than that, I largely agree with you. The issue of race is an prominent undercurrent in the history of pop music in America, but it's my observation that many posters using this forum just can't deal with it. But that is reflection of the larger society. |
When it comes to Jazz and Blues players I was talking about back then. I was not referring to the ones today. not taking away from anyone today, but that is not what I was talking about. And in my opinion and many others, yes, they were the best. Sorry about the misspelling of Beatles. However, most rock musicians back in the day learned from the best Jazz and Blues players. That is a known fact. and couldn't hold a candle to them back then. I recently saw a documentary of rock musician side men (forgot the name) on Netflix I believe. it was fantastic. Those people could really play. So yeah there are first rate musicians in every category. has to be. But, popular music is mostly bells and whistles and not skill. not to say there aren't many that can really rock. Also, to "develop" into a fine bass player is one thing. But when you are sitting in a room with some of the very best and you are developing. Well, again, that is what Quincy was talking about. I don't disparage them their popularity and fame. More power to them. They had to learn their craft. Sooner or later they had to play in front of people that know what they were hearing and seeing. So yeah, they did learn. And I do agree with you about the issue of race. certain people can't or wont deal with it. The believe what they want to believe instead of facts and see what they choose to see only. it is sad and scary even now. But I'll stand by Quincy's assessments. I've seen and heard similar. Don't get me wrong. I like and appreciate the Rolling Stones. I can't believe they are still playing. But to demand that James Brown who always (at that time) had sold out venues open for a newbie band most hadn't yet hear of was insulting. And yes, I can believe that at one time Jimmy Hendrix was "afraid" to play with those artist. yeah, I can see that, at one time. Doesn't mean he wasn't very good, but afraid, okay, i can see that. This wasn't like when Prince was on stage with Clapton and many other established guitarist. he blew them off the stage and showed the world that he was one of the best guitarist period. his superbowl half time performance is still too me the best haft time performance. In a heavy rain, he didn't miss a step or beat and was outstanding. I remember Ashford and Simpson (great song writers by-the-way). I just didn't appreciate how good she really was until I hear her highlighted on Quincy's albums. Wow. what a voice. enjoy |
minorl, I appreciate your interest in these topics and you obviously have an inquisitive mind when it comes to music. However, what you and others fail to understand is what bdp24, myself and others have tried to explain and that is that there is much more to being a good musician than sheer technical prowess; especially when comparing different genres of music which place very different types of demands on musicians. Since music can be such a personal and emotional thing for all of us, there is a tendency to seriously under estimate just how much there is to learn and understand about it and what being a musician is all about. With respect (and I base this only on what you have written here), you, like all of us, have a lot to learn. I won’t repeat the details of what I and others wrote previously on this subject. I do think it’s important to get grounded again and get back to what it was that started this disagreement. It was Quincy Jones’ ridiculous comment that The Beatles were “the worst musicians in the world”. Now, we can disagree as to their individual technical ability, but when considering their other musical talents it becomes obvious that Q’s comments about them (and others) were not grounded in reality. You seem to put a lot of stock in what has been “well documented”. Well, there is little in all that is music and that is “well documented” that carries as much weight, validity and relevance as the fact that Leonard Bernstein was one of the very greatest musical minds (as multi-genre composer, conductor and educator) ever. I highly recommend that you listen to his comments about the music of The Beatles and then consider if they really are anything other than important musicians; never mind “worst in the world”. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1CDz62GNx1A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PMMe3iwBV-I |
frogman; I appreciate and welcome your input and response. I'm not saying that they were the worst musicians in the world. I think If I picked up a guitar, that would probably be me. violin on the other hand was a different story. We are not talking about their music at all. Leonard Bernstein was correct. I'm talking about the playing talent. especially at the time that Quincy is talking about. They just weren't that good. I think we can agree to disagree on this one and notice that you and I aren't going back and forth insulting each other. I don't understand why people do that here. To me, when they got away from the pop music and screaming fans, their music became much better. I think that is what also broke them up. Musical differences, style and taste. John wanted more esoteric style. I think they grew apart style wise. But that is another story. I don't think it was a money issue or an issue of who should be the highlighter as with other bands. Rufus and Chaka Khan for example. Rufus was the music and the writing. Both were diminished when they split. I have no idea why Cream broke up. Eric wanted to go solo maybe? Anyway, some people take Quincy's interview as the ranting of a disgruntled old guy. I don't see it that way at all. exaggeration? maybe a little. but I think he was right about much of what he said. I imagine the scenario was that some outstanding musicians were in the room and heard them play with them and they looked at each other and said, "who are these guys? they really can't play well". Again, I was not in the room, but guess what? he was, and he was around some real talent back in the day. Not saying the Beatles weren't. I'm talking about Miles, Coletrane, Rollins, Sinatra, etc. So, I think there was a serious culture clash and a little anger over the discrepancy of funds. Makes me wonder, if Jazz and Blues went away and we were left with only Rock, head bangers, etc. would mainstreamers miss it? Sorry for the long post. A short story. When my Daughter was growing up as a child and teenager, she was into the music of her age. The funny thing was that when she went to College, she and her friends got into Jazz and albums also. amazing. Anyway, I think the interview was very good and revealing. Yes he is older and probably annoyed at some of the success of other styles versus the ridiculous circumstances they had to go through back in the day, but that does not mean he is wrong or lying. Anyway, my take. I respect your opinion. enjoy |
The Beatles used to play up to 7 hours a night in Hamburg. They learned everything by ear and by "seat of the pants." They assimilated the music by the masters of rock and roll, pop and country. Then they took pop music where it had never been before. Face it, you're a snob, Minori, and apparently out of your element when not discussing jazz. I think you should stick to what you know. Also, please produce the documentation that proves the Beatles were bad musicians--I'd love to see it and I think others here would as well. |
Beatles were clearly not great individual technical musicians but extremely talented song writers (especially together) with some good production talent behind them (the fifth Beatle). Nobody went to see the Beatles for the musicianship - they could not hold a candle to the likes of Eddie Van Halen, Knopfler, Clapton, Jeff Beck, Elton John and the list goes on and on. Beatles were like Bowie - great song writers - great melodies and highly innovative pushing their art in new directions... I can see why professional musicians like Quincy can be frustrated by the self taught. Tom Petty could not even read music and he wrote countless hits and like the Beatles nobody went to see Tom play his guitar although Mike Campbell was supremely competent. |
"I have no idea why Cream broke up. Eric wanted to go solo maybe?" Eric revealed why he ended Cream in his interview in The Last Waltz: "Music had been going in the wrong direction for a long time. When I heard Music From Big Pink (The Band's debut album, of course), I thought: Well, someone has finally gone and done it right. The album made me excited, but also disturbed." Somewhat paraphrased, but that's the gist of it. Eric bought a case of Music From Big Pink LP's, put them in the trunk of his car, and gave a copy to everyone he knew, telling them "You've GOT to hear this." He told Jack and Ginger he wasn't interested in continuing Cream, and went up to Saugerties, New York (where The Band lived) to hang with The Band, waiting, as he now laughs about, for them to ask him to join. It finally dawned on him they didn't require or desire his services, so he left, and started on the second phase of his musical career. Think about that for a second. The leader of the biggest band in the world dissolves that band because he hears an album by another band, one that makes music he feels makes his own irrelevant. Music From Big Pink had that effect on every musician I knew, completely changing our idea of how music should be played, of what made a band good, of what superior musicianship was. I had to start over from the beginning, learning how to play all over again, but now at least knowing what really made a musician a "good" one. For me (and a lot of musicians I knew), groups like The Beatles were over; their time had past. They made some great music, some pretty good music, some okay music, and some dreadful music. To critique them in terms of their individual technical abilities is so wrongheaded as to defy belief! I realize the above could be interpreted as supporting the argument that the members of The Beatles weren't "the best" musicians around. So what? They were good enough to play the kind of music they were making REALLY well. Their music was not about the technical abilities of the individual musicians---they were a Pop Group, not a Jazz quartet. Horses for courses! |
Thanks for the links Frogman. I remember Leonard Bernstein as a big Beatles fan and champion. In fact, he gave my parents reason to pause and listen to the point where they understood the music, loved some of it, and began to understand the feelings of the younger generation of which I was a member. Who cares if they were the best musicians? They made the best music. |
Thx Bdp24 for sharing I must listen more to Big Pink so far I didn’t get into them in any way even having listened extensively. Just to be clear on above post, I have nothing but total admiration for the hard working talented band of The Beatles - just not my go to group for technical musical jaw-dropping prowess in fact far from it - rather ho hum on that dimension. |
Schubert its generally known fact that not all songs credited to Lennon-McCartney were in fact written by both, especially in the latter years. Their arrangement was all songs the two of them did with The Beatles were credited to both, however many credited to Lennon/Mccartney were written solely by either Lennon or McCartney. Other that that it is a pretty safe bet that the songs that were credited as written by one or more members of The Beatles were in fact. No shenanigan's there! Regarding The Monkees, most all of their earlier songs were written by others and credited accordingly, but I believe many of their latter songs were in fact written by group members. Not to say that they may not have still had some help. Not sure about that. |
