I’m thinking about giving a full tube setup a go and Primaluna in particular. Looking to hear people’s experiences with Primaluna in general. My main draw to them outside of tubes is there auto bias and protective features. Wondering if people generally replace a single bad tube or if people are replacing all tubes of that type when there’s a failure. Also would be interested if there were any other companies with at least a similar protective feature. The auto bias sounds great but the protective features are a bigger deal to me.
Rogue also makes a good solid integrated tube amp plus it is made in Pa. I visited their warehouse and watched their staff assemble the amps including circuit boards. Their customer service is excellent and I even spoke to Mark the owner/ designer several times. It’s great when everything is under one roof.
I purchased the Cronus Magnum 3 after owning a PL Dialogue Premium. I used both amps with Gold Lion KT77 power tubes and similar preamp tubes and found the Rogue more detailed and refined. I can’t comment on the newer PL EVO amps since I never heard them but you can’t go wrong with either company.
The Rogue is not auto biasing but it is so easy to perform. I checked the biasing every few months and any adjustments that are required take me about 1 minute. I actually prefer biasing myself since I know it is the correct value.
Had the PL HP Integrated with KT 150’s. Best bass out of my Dynaudios compared to other SS integrateds. Very surprising and impressive. Love my current system but still miss the PL.
Don Sachs used to upgrade/modify Macintosh and HK Citation gear until he ran across some gear designed by Roy Mottram. Some was to upgrade Dynaco amps, and he also had a beautiful sounding preamp of his own design. Don found that he could apply many of the modifications that he had been using on Macintosh and HK tube gear for decades, and Roy’s improved upon designs sounded better than the Macintosh or Citation gear. In addition to cleaning up the DC which improves the "sound floor", he discovered some amazing toroidal transformers that leave practically no fingerprint upon the sound. Roy also designed his own preamp, which Don’s modifications make it another amazing value. Don is semi-retired, and his gear virtually never shows up on the used market, so you may want to talk to Don sooner rather than later is the way to go. Generally I like to follow the GIGO rule, garbage in garbage out rule which would have you start with a DAC, and then progress through your entire system. Until you have great source material you’ll never fully appreciate your electronics, and until you have great source and electronics, you can never appreciate your speakers, etc. In this case though, the DACs and speakers will be there, Don could decide to go into full retirement at any given time, so time isn’t your friend. One of the big pluses with Roy’s better mods, which Don Sachs takes to their full potential, are the 6SN7 tubes in the preamp and amplifier. I’ve had modified/improved preamps like the ARS LS-15 Prep and as nice as it sounds with good 6DJ8 BugleBoys and good capacitors in the audio path, the DS2 just spanks the LS-15, which you would likely love, until you heard a DS2. I have one of Roy’s custom amps and I am applying many of Don’s modifications to it, but what I didn’t know going in is how much money I would have saved had I just purchased Don’s amplifier... For now my ML 27.5 is doing a respectable job though. You can certainly speak to Don about any protective circuitry that you may want.
Listening right now to my Evo 300 with my Dialogue preamp, for the money they are competitive with anything out there. Lots of choices, buy what sounds best to you in your system.
I have a PrimaLuna Prologue Premium integrated since 2018. No tubes changed.I have the original Chinese tubes but I bought Golden Lion KT 77 and 12au7. Yes the sound is different, a bit more transparent but this integrated is sensible to power cords and fuse, yes fuse. The PLPPi drives my Magneplanar LRS quite well but not at deafening levels, easily at 85 db. SPL. I would probably stay with EL34 power tubes. Sometimes when the planets are aligned :-) it sounds so well and it never sounds bad. I also have a Moon 250i and I prefer the PrimaLuna being less analytic and more musical.
Surprised no one has mentioned Line Magnetic. I have had a PL Evo 300 and the LM 805ia (which I now own) in the same room and it wasn't even close. The LM805ia has two individual biases for each channel that can be adjusted on the fly at any moment. Which might be once every few months.
PL was fine sounding but the Line Magnetic is a big step up for roughly the same price and power. if you search this and other forums I think you’ll consistently find the same amswer amongst those who have actually listened to both.
PL makes exceptional gear. They’ve improved a lot over the past 16 years. The parts in their amplifiers are first class. It’s not the finest amp you can buy. But it’s not $30k either. And can’t you sample their gear without committing to a purchase? I could be wrong. All I know is it’s wrong for Raven to attack gear that sells well in an attempt to sell your own product while lying in the process. In my day, that’s the sort of thing that would get you an a•• whooping! That was a punk ass move.
I have Primaluna HP mono's & Diologue Premium preamp paired with Wilson Sopia II. I've had no problems. mix & match tubes with no issues and to my ears....they sound magical. Are there better brands, sure...but for the price it's going to be hard to beat. I've had them for 4-5ish years now and have no intention of selling them unless I hit the lottery.
I like the looks of my Primaluna. Self-effacing but proudly utilitarian and macho. Like something a mad scientist would have softly glowing on a metal shelf.
Happy with my PL Dialogue Four with SED Winged "C" EL34’s. Will be buying NOS signal tubes for it. It’s my first tube power amp and has been great so far. Having compared UL to Triode mode, I greatly prefer Triode. The thing is ridiculously heavy, with most of the weight coming from the transformers. Not the most inspired design aesthetically, but in a dark room all you see are the tubes glowing away. Would have liked XLR input purely out of convenience as my DAC only has balanced output, but not a deal breaker.
At the price I paid, the craftsmanship and quality of components would be hard to match. I saw the video that prompted the PL vs Raven crap show thread, and it was very obvious how much more you get for the money with the PL (not comparing sound, purely based on internals). I am in no way a brand loyalist and only own the PL because I had read positive things about them, it is a good pairing with my speakers, and one was available at a nice price. I would happily own other brands that match or better the performance and value of PL.
@factenindeed, I was just rying to get the OP to say he preferred the sound of the 805 tube rather than LM necessarily being better. Full disclosure: I own a LM805 although I havent powered it up in over a year. Its an arc welder when it comes to heat. Not LM’s fault, its the tube.
Indeed I have compared the PL to the LM in my same room. I did not compare 805’s to the common PL tubes in isolation - not sure what amp allows for that. Just offering another (better) option for the OP that is easy to bias and is in the same bracket.
Yes it puts out a lot heat, but that’s the cost of 48 watts of SET magic.
@nqueryits great that you enjoy yours. Its all about expectations and proper matching. Mine is in a closet…Im likely going to list if for sale in the coming week or two. It just never did it for me.
@nqueryprimaluna is more versatile than the lower end LM integrateds, since it can run more tubes. That isnt the direction I went. I prefer Leben running el34’s but I have three other amps I prefer, none of which are cross shopped with those being discussed. The LM 805 sounds wonderful, dont get me wrong, but I didnt like needing to run a cheater plug and the hum adjustment pots are included for a reason. If you run sensitive speakers….its never truly gone.
Interesting. I never had trouble dialing in the hum pots with my 90db Spendor’s. Dead quiet. A tiny bit of transformer hum if I put my head up next to the amp which might be DC offset. Agreed that PL might be more versatile but I don’t think they compare when it comes to SQ. Cheers
I’ve got to comment on the gentleman that said the Don Sachs Kootenay was drier and sounds more solid state. Sir you can’t be more farther from the truth. I own a Kootenay and my brother owns a Evo 400. I’m not going to get into a comparison.
I had PL Dialogue Four diy modded/upgraded to latest spec with Takman carbon film, I also added MIflex coupling caps, ran with SED (1990's era, cryo'd) EL34 and NOS drivers. This in concurrent comparison to Coincident 845SET, custom built 300B monoblocks. And I've had plenty of nice push pull and SET previously. The PL, while not up to the far higher price SET's in my setup, didn't make me feel deprived in the least, I could have very satisfying longer listening sessions with PL.
PL is one of those good value components, within its price range one of the best. One would have to get really high end system for PL to be weak link. Could be end game solution, not a bad place to end for reasonable audiophile. Its all marginal gains past this point, law of diminishing returns kicks in.
I have the Primaluna Evo 300 power amplifier in my main system ( Tannoy Legacy Arden speakers and MC2300 pre amp). It seems every reviewer and most owners opt for the PL integrateds. Perhaps due to ease of review or system simplicity. I just wanted to share from a power amp owner's perspective.
What the PL offers over most other tube designs is ease of ownership and tailoring of sound through tube swaps. As mentioned by others, the auto bias, and bad tube indicators make ownership a breeze. I had a stock EL34 go bad a few days after the amp arrived. Upscale Audio had a replacement at my door 2 days later. After trying the stock set, I swapped in 7581As, KT-88s, and KT-150s. The 7581A were rich but a little dull in my system, and I settled on both the KT-88 and KT-150 as favorites.
I did however have two KT-150 go bad (working but noisy) in short order, in both cases i simply replaced the bad ones instead of dropping $450 on another quad.
I've owned SS amps from other brands that retailed for more including Pass and Jeff Rowland, and honestly feel the PL is every bit their equal in sound quality. I've yet to own anything close to the build quality of that Rowland amp...I now regret selling.
Anyone calling PL mediocre and worse simply doesn't know what they're talking about. I've owned Audio Research, Cary, Coincident, Art Audio, custom built, Bob Latino Dynaco, Wright Sound, Joule Electra. PL build quality just fine, and so is sq.
It's curious to me when someone proclaims that item "A" is far better than item "B" without clarifying what exactly is better. We just get a blanket statement instead. Is it based on build quality, aesthetics, performance, smell? What? If you directly compared item "A" to item "B" and you prefer one over the other, then say as much.
Winner of the Prestigious German Plus X award for Design, Innovation and Performance. Yes, there is a lot of wood there. Can you see it? Plus PL does not even operate at pure class A.
The Opera Consonance Cyber100-20 running 4 KT-88s is a closer comparable to something like the Evo 200i. To be fair, it's about a grand less expensive not factoring in shipping ($200 on the low side-and $400 Covid rates).
Yes it puts out a lot heat, but that’s the cost of 48 watts of SET magic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heat factor might be a issue for some folks. But the trade off is worth it, Just find a way to add a fan or AC. DHT’s are the real deal. I know when I get KT90’s in my Defy it will give the big DHT’s a run for their money, 88’s are too **bloomy** in midrange for my FR MIDRANGE speakers. PL are made in same plant as Cayin, which is well known for super quality, craftmanship/sonics. I bought a older model PL linestage, Prologue 3, (??) had like 6 12AU7’s, my fav pre tube.. I did not do a long testing, as i found the sound a bit *unusual*. I quickly returned to seller with my generous 20% restock fee, + I paid ship both ways. Out like $500++ but at least I did not have to keep it. all AU’s in a linestage is not the right design. There has to be some AX’s to make a linestage sound correct. So PL droped the ball on that model,,luckily they droped that model. . Cayin IMHO is slightly superior to PL. PL does not offer any DHT models. = cancel PL. My interested has shifted totally away from KT amplifiers. The DHT’s offer a nuance in midrange that holds my interest.
KT vs DHT, both very close, but my vote goes DHT.
~~~~~If you have xover low sensitivity speakers, you can not use a DHT. You will miss that DHT magic.
Good grief @mozartfanhave you heard a preamp stage with 6sn7’s? Then how can you state unequivocally that 12ax7/12au7 is the superior preamp tube topology? There are so many circuits….you just cant make that statement.
Mozartfan always coming to these overarching conclusions. We're not even talking about DHT here, pretty soon this thread will be argument about who knows what?
By the way, that Opera review not too complimentary, but someone claims its far superior to PL. Why can't people withhold with all the hyperbole!
I've owned any number of far more expensive SET amps vs. PL, they don't relegate PL to trash. Excessive pride of ownership and choices one makes leads to ridiculous statements, keep the hubris in check!
@brylandgoodmanWondering if people generally replace a single bad tube or if people are replacing all tubes of that type when there’s a failure.
Not sure if anyone addressed this question in your post as the thread kind of got into a debate. It seems that PL and Tekton are brands where this happens. You can learn more from threads where people stick to answering questions with detailed personal experience.
I owned a PL Prologue Premium preamp that I traded in for a PL Dialogue Premium preamp. Never had a bad tube problem. I did experiment with different tubes to change the sound and always used matched pairs of tubes (the inner two tubes were the ones I changed on the PL preamps - this is where you can hear a difference. The outer two on each side, not so much).
I own a CJ 17LS2 preamp and change out the tubes with matched pairs to change the sound as well.
I recently purchased a Don Sachs DS2 preamp and will probably eventually try a different set of tubes there. Again, it will be a matched pair.
Note that the three brands of preamps I have experience with all use different tubes and they do sound different. That was my intent.
The interesting undercurrent to your question is, in addition to the technical one of whether it would be safe to change out just one tube or would it hurt the equipment, is whether you would be able to hear a difference. This depends on your ears, your source, and your speakers. Your results can easily be different from what others experience with even a slightly different combination of gear.
I also own a CJ 66LPS tube amp. It has manual biasing, which is not a big deal to do as the adjustment screws are set on the top of the deck next to the tubes. But hey, not having to worry about it could be fun too!
My opinion is circuit protection is important. If you read enough posts, you can form a learned perspective about this. The most unfun thing about audio is not being able to listen to a piece of gear because it is not working properly. I am not technically proficient and people like myself need that protection (I have learned the hard way to turn off all power whenever I change out anything!)
I am off on a tangent here but want to share that you never can tell what equipment will really gell with the rest of your gear until you try it. Put another way, you might like the sound of preamp A compared to Preamp B. Then you switch out another piece of gear, for example the DAC. How do you know whether the new DAC would sound better with Preamp B unless you try it in your setup? Does that mean Prreamp A is not as good as initially thought? (No...). There is a reason why people have multiple pieces of gear!
Whoops, one more thing! My Don Sachs preamp was better at 50 hours than brand new and better again at 100 hours than at 50. First time I have had a liquid sound to my system.
I agree with you. There are fantastic bikes available from many manufacturers. Just like there are fantastic audio components available from many manufacturers. There's no universal "best."
Dealers participating 'passionately' in these forums is a double-edged sword. They may win some fans/customers, but also run the risk of alienating an equal number of people. Just sayin' ...
Mozartfan always coming to these overarching conclusions. We’re not even talking about DHT here, pretty soon this thread will be argument about who knows what? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK got it,
apologies in attempting to hijack this topic.
Agree lets get back to PM. LOok every major manufacturer from china, Cayin, Doge, LM, Willenston, Yaqin, many others offer a PP KT amp for less than PL’s offerings. You can get a KT88 amplifier just under $1400 from any of these brands which easily challenges PL’s design, which ,,let me go ck PL’s prices,,,be right back.....$2800. VERSUS Cayin (My fav of all china’s manufacturers) MT45 $1300 (Includes ship!!!!). PL is going to have a hard sell very soon. There I brought this topic back to focus,
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