Tube amps are considered more romantic sounding than solid state because, more often than not, their signature sound has a little less treble than a typical solid state amp, and their bass has a bit less kick drum/electric bass punch. In other words, the sound is a little less in-your-face -- a situation that instinctively favors the romantic side of existence.
Primaluna?
I’m thinking about giving a full tube setup a go and Primaluna in particular. Looking to hear people’s experiences with Primaluna in general. My main draw to them outside of tubes is there auto bias and protective features. Wondering if people generally replace a single bad tube or if people are replacing all tubes of that type when there’s a failure. Also would be interested if there were any other companies with at least a similar protective feature. The auto bias sounds great but the protective features are a bigger deal to me.
156 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
Until last weekend I owned a Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium Integrated amp. Last Thursday my Audio Dealer, www.OlsonHiFi.com, lent me a Krell K300i to test against my PL. I really liked the PL. I had rolled tubes, SR Orange fuse, etc. In my system, the Krell was totally superior in almost every aspect. I traded in my PL… I’ve been a diehard tube guy until last weekend. Dynaco, Audio Research, Audio Labs, Primaluna, and a few others along the way. Now, I’m a SS believer in my specific setup. Your setup is different. To be fair, the PL can be had used (like mine) for about $3k whereas the Krell is 2x that. Depending on your setup, the PL may be an excellent fit. I do like the PL a lot. The detail, control (particularly of the lower frequencies), and effortless presentation really won me over. My system: Innuos Zen Mini Mk3 running Roon, through Silnote USB cable, now into the Krell K300i with the integrated DAC, through GR-Research 24pr cables, into my XStatic full range electrostatic speakers. |
@brylandgoodman if you’ve exhausted speaker positioning and still can’t get the bass you desire, you could try adding 2x subwoofers in the two opposite corners of the rooms, this can work magic according to people who use this setup. I had a lot of issues with low frequencies and it wasn’t the amp, rather the speaker and room interaction. My first breakthrough came when I changed the room layout so the speakers would fire down the long walls. Then I tried several speakers, like Tannoy Cheviot, Klipsch forte IV, Piega coax, ended up buying a pair of Klipsch Heresy IV. The bass was very nice with the Klipsch, and the overall music listening, but now I’m back to the Joseph Audio Pulsar 2. They just have much more detail and a 3d soundstage. Overall amazing, but at times still slightly untamed bass. So when my means allows it will add 2x svs subs :-) |
Looking forward to reviews by consumers ( there has been 1 amazing review so far by Jeff Dorgay ) on the new Prima Luna EVO 300 Floyd Design Integrated. Tube preamp stage, ss output stage. For my own wants, desires and needs, with my music listening, I cannot live with a tube power amp any longer ( no attacks please ). But I do like tube preamps mated with ss amps ( although I run a passive pre at this time ). I have spoken to Kevin many many years ago ( he likely does not remember me, as it was in a crowded room at a show, and before PL ), but I found him to be an extremely passionate guy, about the equipment, and, the music. Enjoy, and be well ! Always, MrD. |
I ended up purchasing a Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp and power amp. It’s been an interesting experience so far with my Harbeth C7es3 xd speakers. It’s been both very satisfying and also a bit frustrating. Really everything other than the bass I think is incredible. The bass is just to loose and undefined, although it is very powerful. I do think it’s making more bass than my McIntosh mc302 was at equal volumes, and this is part of the issue. I’m guessing this is equal parts the amp and the speakers at fault. I switched the output tubes to kt150s and that was a noticeable improvement throughout the frequency range. The bass is now closer to what I desire but not quite there. I’m debating what my best approach is at this point. I really like the sound I’m getting outside of the bass so I’m willing to throw some money at it if it will get me where I want to be. Part of me wonders if it will be a wasted effort and I should really just sell the power amp and go back to solid state. Other ideas I have would be trying some different signal tubes in the preamp and amp. Another idea is to buy a Schiit Lokius and just turn down the bass. I did have a c46 previously and I did use the tone controls to tame the bass. I could live without with the Mc gear but not sure I can with this tube amp. Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated. |
@philgo01 may is ask which Rogers amp you ended up buying? I recently heard a 65-v2 and it was amazing. I’m going to borrow it and listen to it in my system tomorrow. |
Actually my experience with heavy weight as an indicator of sound quality includes CD players, DACs, streamers speakers, as well as phono-stages. This is not a causal explanation, but a virtual 100% correlation observation. Some of comes from very heavy cases for vibration dampening and heavy reinforcement every thing plus heavy duty power management. I have not dissected equipment to figure it out… but it is an observation. I mentioned this to a friend that owns a high end audio store for twenty years. He could only come up with a single exception to the rule of thumb… a piece of equipment I had never heard of. |
The first tube amp I heard was the Macintosh MC275 and it was a revelation. I had always dismissed tube amps as nostalgia but everything changed that day. I couldn’t afford the Mac amp but learned about Primaluna in the process and got a demo Dialogue One from Upscale. I loved it and thought it sounded every bit as good as the Mac, or close enough for me. A couple years later I wanted to try something else and got a Line Magnetic LM508 integrated. Have to say sound wise it was better than the Primaluna in every way, however it was also quite a bit more expensive and it’s a beast of an amp and runs very very hot. It also developed a buzz in a transformer and had to go to service. While it was gone for nearly 6 montths I put the PL back in. There were times I thought I could just live with this amp forever as it does everything right. However, so many flavors of amps to try so when I got the Line Magnetic back I sold it and the PL. Since then I’ve had amps from Linear Tube Audio, Mastersound, Tektron, Canary, Oliver Sayes, 300b SET mono’s from Grant Fidelity, and some solid state amps from Van Alstine, Odyssey and others. All very good, some great. But after all that I’m now back to Primaluna with a Dialogue Premium amp. Did some of those other amps sound better in some ways? Yes, but the PL gear is just simple, quiet, versatile, reliable and I actually like the simple, clean understated looks. And buying a used PL Dialogue could be one of the great bargains in HiFi. Now, a local HiFi shop just got an Evo300 amp that I might pick up and sell my Dialogue. Not sure it’s a huge upgrade but in the end it will only cost me a couple hundred $$ and could use the flexibility of the xlr inputs. So might be selling my Dialogue for the Evo. And I still have some other amps I want to try, but I just don’t think you can go wrong with the PL gear. Highly recommended. also, and not to get off subject, I have a Don Sachs preamp and love it. It’s not in the system right now but I think I’ll have a really hard time ever selling it. Don has also been great to work with in terms of support and advice. I’d love to hear his amp one day but just haven’t gotten there yet. Be well everyone and enjoy your music. |
I too was looking at PL's but decided to go with Rogers High Fidelity's Integrated AMPs. Super happy with it, costs less than PL and are hand made in the USA. Roger Gibboni is the owner and he is great to work with. Complimentary lifetime upgrades and warranty included in every purchase ! Works very well with my high efficiency Klipsch speakers (99db) ! |
@brylandgoodman those are all fair points! It’s unfortunately quite human to assume people around you know and understand topics on a similar level. When you’re good at something it comes easy and natural and it’s hard to realize that others might not be on the same level. This can create conflicts in communication and can come off as arrogant or patronizing. It’s up to both parties of the communication channel to understand this and negotiate the right protocol. on the PL site you can read this statement: “Output transformers are the most important part of any tube amp. They determine how low the bass will reach and how high the top end goes.” Of course this sounds like a marketing catch phrase, but it’s actually true. Here you can get deeper as to why this is.
|
I've had a Primaluna HP 8 tube integrated amp for 5 years now and I love it. Its the best amp I've ever owned. The stock EL34 tubes are beautiful and the auto bias and safety features are world class. It's all point to point wiring and the attention to detail is 1st class. Yes there are other tube amps out there but with all aspects of the amp being monitored with offset killers and toroidal transformers for power and speakers, each channel it's whisper quiet. It's plug and play and with auto bias, there is no crossover distortion and no bias checking every month. I can't fault this amp. The amount of people who use it as a reference amp is ridiculous.....it's that good. Cheers, Andrew Peter Collins, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. |
Amps I can understand much better. Preamps not so much. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Kevin him self talk about how preamps aren’t amplifyIng the sound as much as they are reducing the signal. I think he duscusses this when talking about the amount of gai. The Primaluna preamps have. This makes me feel that while large current capabilities and large transformers may create a sound that some or a majority may prefer I am skeptically of its necessity. I’ remember reading an article about PS Audio and that they were apparently one of the early designs to use what the described as an OVERSIZED transformer. This again makes me feel that undoubtedly large transformers may change the sound, but it’s also possible one might prefer the sound in there system in there house that comes from a smaller transformer. I could be wrong for sure but I don’t think you NEED a large transformer to put out a couple volts. |
Sorry to hear you’ve been somewhat turned off by Kevin… I don’t know him, but I completely understand where he is coming from. He is really knowledgeable and very enthusiastic. I have been very serious about high end audio and very early on recognized the 100% correlation between weight and sound quality. I am sure someone will come up with an exception… but after auditioning and owning hundreds of components the rule holds. If he had told me one weighed much more than the other, that would be it, I would have shut my mouth and accepted everything. Power management and current are everything in high end audio… and it weighs a lot. A lightweight preamp or amp is just not going to cut it. So, I see your point… he assumed that this comment would be self evident. From what you said, he was very honest and enthusiastic about what he told you. But maybe didn’t read you right. |
Since this thread continues to go in another direction than I intended I may as well roll with it. I like most have seen Kevin in his videos going back years. I’ve had one personal conversation with him regarding the Prologue Premium Preamp, and the original LTA Micro that he carried at the time. I figured since he sold both, and both were very well received in the press that I could get some clarification on each of their strengths and their weaknesses. He responded as if it was a ridiculous question, and that the Primaluna was clearly superior. I asked him why and he went on about how much his preamp weighs. I told him I wasn’t to concerned about their weight and that I was very open minded about there being different ways to get good sound. Also from the little I do understand about the LTA is that it’s key distinction is it is transformerless. I could imagine if you took the transformers out of the Primaluna and used a cheaper lighter chassis the two would probably be fairly close in weight. Then again I could be way off and I’m aware if this. I’m also aware I have no idea what makes a preamp sound good. Far as I know it has nothing to do with weight. I think a more appropriate response to my question would have been to explain why the Primaluna sounds better, and then if he felt it was needed to further explain how the weight of the Primaluna contributed to this. Anyways, I guess my point is I was a bit turned off by his response and seemingly at times lack manners. I would already own or would have owned one if it weren’t for that conversation. I’ve realized over time though that it silly to not try something that truly speaks to me because one person with affiliation turned me off. I’ve also realized I can appreciate Kevin’s passion, and I do think that’s where most of his shortness comes from. At the same time I would have very much appreciated somebody who I felt truly wanted to educate me instead of whatever that was. Also regarding integrated vs seperates, am I going to get more of the unique quality that tubes bring with seperates? Or are the improvements in more general areas, not just the ones associated with tubes. Really I just want more bloom and more of the feeling of listening to a performance, and not a stereo. Hopefully that makes since. I’m not very comfortable explaining what I’m hearing. |
Truth be told, if I could, I would rather be doing that all day. I love that stuff and that’s how Upscale started. Just tubes. If I could sit and bullsh*t I’d be in heaven, and that’s what I want to do by hiring people that know how to run a business and free me. I’ve got pallets of vintage gear I want to play with. Ralph probably has a better temperament than I do on forums. He is the real deal. I can have a relapse and end up in rec.audio.opinion or rec.audio.tubes usenet mode. I removed most of my posts, and wish nothing but good to all tube-heads. Even if it’s the cheapest all-tube amp on the market, and that’s all you can afford, I’d say go for it. Tubes can change everything you thought you knew about communicating with music. |
I wouldnt trade places with any hifi manufaturer or dealer, I just wouldnt have the patience. Ralph at Atma-sphere or Kevin at Upscale.
caller: Im looking for a 6wpc SET amplifier to drive my homemade speakers but it must have 12ax7 tubes in the pre section and 12au7’s in the driver stage. I dont mind 12at7’s but I would need input from the designer as to why.
hifi professional: well, where do I begin…. |
Yea sorry I got defensive. I was beat tired. Also want to say I do not want to imply ASL or Jolida don’t have U.S. support. I have zero idea. The guy I mentioned bought it used. But calling me elitist is a bit much when our first product in 2003 was a $1300 disruptor. And we keep it as real as we can today. I truly believe these low-priced tube products are a great boon to the industry and said that in an interview. They could be a major gift that dealers don’t recognize. They plant a seed that there is something more fun and better sounding than an Alexa speaker on the counter. It fires the imagination. As people age and their income increases, they might upgrade. It’s always been like that. Some manufactures don’t agree with me and see it as a threat. I think it’s one of the best things that can happen to our industry and we should be counting our blessings. The old audiophiles are dying off. I get more young people getting involved with this than I ever would have guessed. And it starts somewhere. |
We need our audio dealers and they need to make a profit or we wouldn't have any. A reason so much cheap tube gear is out there is because much of it has no return or warranty support. As Kevin mentioned if that's all you can buy that's not his concern doesn't sound elitist to me. But still, any dealer that goes into an open public forum and self promotes will get some grief it's just the way it is and these forums or groups are really not the place for it. You most likely turn off as my buyers as you turn on. |
@mozartfan - my observation is that a well-run luxury brand emphasizing quality *never* runs a “sales event”, both to maintain long-term economics as well as value associated with the brand. They might offer discount on an older product line as it is being replaced ( @upscaleaudio might smack this assertion around) If second-hand prices are falling, or dealers are selling “grey market” at a discount, then the maker cuts production and lives with lower revenue for a few years, but maintains pricing The second-hand market is where price-sensitive buyers look for less expensive entry points Rolex. Porsche. Hermes. Companies with brand value including quality and longevity, that sell massive volumes, but never discount Appreciate the above contains generalizations in service of sharing an idea |
| Post removed |
Nice attitude Kevin. I think you should have stopped long before this, but this quote really gets my back up. I've bought some tubes and a subwoofer from your store, but since I don't really want to spend 5k on an amp I guess that doesn't matter. I really enjoy music on my moderately priced set up, and I'll probably buy a few things in the future, but it won't be from you. It's elitist A-holes such as yourself that ruin the experience of audio and music enjoyment for so many.
Last time I'll be here, I forgot how much audiophiles can ruin music enjoyment. |
I haven't read the whole thread, neither the one that was recently deleted. But you can see that Kevn has a lifetime interest in the tube audio hobby. If you live in SoCal, you owe it to yourself to go visit and hear for yourself; I'd recommend a call to let him know you are coming. If you don't live near enough, give him a call. You can get his take on what's going on and then be in a better position to make a purchase. I have never bought anything from Kevin, but I've been in his store years ago. It is a neat place, especially seeing his vintage tube gear; it is one way to show off his "love" as he says for the hobby.
Best of luck OP. |
| Post removed |
I apologize to the group for going overboard on stuff I should never have talked about. I need to meet with my accountant about the joys of 50 states of tax nexus and I am trying to avoid anything that bores me. I will answer this question only from my perspective and PrimaLuna. If you have a budget of $20k for amp and speakers, that's $5595 for an EVO 400 Integrated and $14,405 for speakers. In some cases an EVO300 is just as good, so if you got that one add $900 to your speaker budget. If you bought an EVO400 preamp ($5295) and power amp ($5295) that would leave you $9410 for speakers. Assuming that's your budget I might suggest integrated and better speakers. That extra $5k can take you a long way, and speakers are hugely important. If you are BUILDING, then it may different: Yes, having a preamp is better, and our amps are not the exact same as the integrated amp because they have a different design and different transformers. The integrated amps have a 4ohm tap and an 8ohm tap. The power amps have a 4, 8, and 16ohm tap to more closely match a wider array of speakers, and that's important. The cool thing is if you add another power amp something happens: You have dual-ouput transformers, one for positive and one for negative side of the signal. This is not common because it can cause problems. Our tube engineer Marcel Croese created countermeasures that allows it and increases sound quality. It's incredible when you monoblock any PrimaLuna. It's quieter. Output impedance drops, and that means better bass. Instead of the speaker taps being 4, 8, and 16ohm they are 2, 4, and 8ohms. Magnepan and Martinlogan owners love it. It's the reason that Martinlogan has used PrimaLuna at shows in the past. But in my opinion sometimes people are over-amped and under-speakered.
|
Thanks for all the feedback from everybody. I have to sell some gear first, but will be trying a Primaluna when that’s worked out. Curious peoples take on an integrated vs going seperates. Looking for specifics far as where the differences are. I know seperates give extra flexibility and potentially lower noise, but what else? Also curious what might be the difference from using an integrated or using a power amp with a dac that has volume control? Again thanks for all the replies. |
Noted. Thanks @tsushima1 And there is something to be said about the craziest of stuff. I remember the old days at CES in the Riviera hotel, and you could barely walk into many rooms it was so hot. Then this dude plugged in an amp...some crazy ass deal that slips my mind, and he took out the whole wing of the hotel. No electricity. So SET, OTL, it’s all fun. OTL especially for headphones. OMG
|
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
I should not be so hard on SET. I get it, it’s fun. But they are touted as being "simpler" and first off, that doesn’t mean anything good and second, that’s not always true. The great fact is they have a high output impedance. And if they don’t, there will be an additional stage that adds feedback to lower the output impedance. That’s it, kids. The EVO300 and 400 have push-pull triode, and if you go back to the early days of high-fidelity, that was always considered to be state of the art. Because of speaker control. It’s quieter. In 1951, David Hafler and Herbert Keroes changed everything. It’s called Ultra-linear. The vast majority of tube amps since have used it, and PrimaLuna allows you to access both PP triode and Ultra-linear from your remote. And PP triode will work better than SE in every parameter. Now I know....I get it. I see the photos on the Decware website, and I can get all gooey about it as much as anyone, but I’m also pragmatic. As to the number of amps being sold: 20 years ago I was selling tons of 845’s and 300Bs. Demand dropped. Period. That doesn’t mean it’s some big deal decline, it means it’s not like mozartfan says and he can make all the videos he wants but he may be causing more harm than good. We get the phone calls from lost newbies that assembled a system that if they were advised properly, they never would have put together. I love SET. I love bridge SET even more. I love all of it. I love all this stuff. I’m speaking from experience after doing this for 44 years as a living, and making my own mistakes and discoveries. I’m speaking to the uninitiated and there are tons of them here. EDIT: I got a long letter from a guy just recently that bought the wrong stuff, and how he can’t afford to change it now because of the financial loss it would mean. I hate that. If you can afford to experiment do it. Have fun. I've had the luxury of trying it all. Audio is not just about measurements ONLY. If you have the jack to do it, why not.
|
@upscaleaudio Kevin, you convinced me when I bought the PL, now I was looking into changing to Decware SET, and you’re convincing me to stay! It’s hard in this hobby to stick to something that works, when you keep reading about other stuff, that you think might sound better, though you don’t know what others base their reviews on. What I know for sure is that the evo400i is hassle free and gives me pleasure whenever I turn it on, and it worked perfectly with all speakers I tried: Joseph Audio, Piega, Tannoy, Klipsch, Dynaudio. And it also runs my Heddphones:-)
|
Is this a personal observation or are you talking about just the products you sell. I personally am all in on very efficient speakers and low watt power amps and can see that trend expanding (or my knowledge regarding that trend expanding???) SET amps do require some thought regarding speakers but 16 Ohm speakers aren’t a requirement for them to sound good. My personal observation is I’m more into single ended amps than I’ve ever been and sound wise it would be very difficult for me to give them up and pretty sure I'll still feel this way in 6 months, 12 months ... If all that vintage stuff is taking up too much space I’d be glad to take it off your hands
|
| Post removed |
Yep. He reminds me of someone else. Can't quite remember who... |
I'm going to repeat my mantra, **KT power amps will begin to lose market share** Its only a matter of time. I believe, really, the future is Full range type systems, with addced tweeters added woofers. Which speakers sound best with DHT's. You do not need 50 watts of power for speakers with 92+ db sensitivity. THis is why you see chinese brand KT 88 amps prices falling. FREE SHIPPING, all over the Inet. But for DHT's shipping, $$$$$$. I am glad to have bought the DHT amp so I can post YT videos and comments here on audiogon so i can bring attention and clarity to these wonderful and mysterious DHT tubes. The reason most (90%) of audiophiles went for KT series amps is for afforadibility and speaker demands. Now with these new high tech FR + prices for the new DHT designs have been become affradble. ($2k-$5K) vs decades ago where new DHT's ran you ,,more than I can count. Its only a matter of time before this new revolution begins to take shape and pick up speed. I think PL will also have problems with new sales #'s as he sells more amps, which eventually will result in more PL's on the used market. Kevin really needs to beging having sales events, xmas and the 4th. if he wishes to maintain sufficient market share to stay viable. Some audiophiles will only buy *on the deal*, not at regular price. This is The New Economy of economics.
|
@aberyclark absolutely, that’s how I use it. It’s better for the looks and for heat dissipation! I listen in the dark, and I enjoy tremendously the warm glow of the tubes. I have the black and I love the looks :-) |
My friend, Before I purchased my Primaluna power amp I called Upscale Audio and spoke with Kevin directly. I did all the research I could, but was still on the fence regarding tubes. Some of the questions I had were will it give me enough power to enjoy my music at any level? Would it be simple to play and maintain? Would I out grow it in a year or so? Kevin answered all my questions and made me a promise that in five years after owning the product I will be blown away by its effectiveness and he was absolutely right. Now, I must admit, I want to replace the one I currently have simply because I can only imagine how good the model above mine must sound. However, there are two things stopping me from doing so. The first is that I am truly enjoying the sound quality, and the second is I do not want to take the time to break in a new one. My system seems to be just perfect. I know that’s a strange thing to say for most audiophiles, but it’s the truth. One change in any piece of my equipment frightens me. Respectfully, East
|
Dumb question. Somebody mentioned earlier that the looks of PL components are not attractive. Can I assume one can leave the tube cage/ cover off with no problems? If that’s the case, the amp has pretty much the same general design of most tube amps if one does not like the cover. A few years ago I saw a Mystere amp in piano black finish that looked amazing. |
