I just heard the Odyssey Pre-amp at the SF show! Everyone who walked into his room was blown away.... then he told them the price and there jaws dropped!!! No one is talikg about this company in the trade mags because hes blowing the preception of what you need to spend to get unbelivable quality.
How about a QUALITY Pre-amp for 1000.00 that has the same design as the super expensive Symphonic Line Pre-amp.
Call Klaus at Odyssey and at least check it out.
www.odysseyaudio.com |
|
Like the wine variety, Sear-a (soft a, accent on Sear) |
Funny from the first time I saw the spelling I saw it as Sarah and have pronounced and spelled it as Sar-ah since. Now it's Sear-a? Very nice tone to it, I like it. |
While we're on the subject of wine, just in case everyone doesn't know already, Mick's top end preamp, the Grange is named after what is generally considered Australia's finest bottle of wine - The Penfolds Grange. I think the preamp is well named, because the Grange wine is unique, mysterious, lasts for decades and cannot easily be compared to another wine. It basically sets the standard, as I'm sure does the preamp. I have the Syrah right now, but in a year or two I'd consider taking the plunge and getting the Grange. If I do, I think I might treat myself to a bottle of Grange at the same time. I think they'd go well together :-) (Incidentally, if you do buy a bottle of Grange, get the 1998 vintage. It's rated 99 points by both Wine Specator and Wine Advocate - almost perfect - you'll have to dish out over $220 for a bottle though, if you can find it :-) Cheers,
Outlier.
(Life's too short to drink cheap wine!) |
Tubegroover: phoenetics were never my strong suit: actually, Sear-ah would be better, with something done to the "ah" when pronounced that I don't know how to denote; not nesessarily accented on "ah", but open mouthed...oh well.
Outlier, I does know what'cha mean...although at $220 I'd rather opt for a Bordeaux. But 99 scored, if you trust Parker on the Aussies, ain't bad at $220, although sounds a bit young right now...Slurp, slurp.
Yes, I know, just one more outlandish, decadent hobby... |
So it's about wines, I see and now I have a completely different perspective of where Mick might be coming from. Mick, could you or any other of the down under blotes (Steve?) chime in and clue us on what is a Syrah? |
North of the equator we call it Shiraz.... speaking of THE Syrah, I listened to mine for two days - as others noted it sounded awesome straight out of the box. Better base and highs and generally more musical than the ARC LS8II which it replaced. Set up was very easy, I plugged the rectifier tube into the power supply, connected the power line from the power supply to the preamp and was ready to go.
Unfortunately, we are getting a heat wave here in the southwest...so I'm hesitant to run my tubes amps and preamp in this heat (no AC). Guess I'll have to enjoy its good looks until the hot spell ends. |
Tubegroover, shiraz/syrah are the two names for the same grape. Thought to be of Persian origin, it is the most common grape in wines from the Rhone (both generic Cotes du Rhone and Northern Rhone wines such as Hermitage, St. Joseph, etc). It is also used blended with grenache in Chateauneuf-du-Pape. It is probably the most common grape grown for red wine in Australia. It is also grown in the Pacific Northwest of the United States.
From what I know, "shiraz" is the name SOUTH of the equator and 'syrah' is the name used in the U.S. and France - pronounced as Asa suggests.
I have been curious - and Mick, if you're still keeping track of this post, perhaps you'd like to chime in? :^) - as to why Mick chose the non-Aussie version of the name. And is there a tube DAC called the 'Mataro' somewhere on the horizon?
Outlier, I think the original store price in Australia was around A$350-400/btl (which came to about US$220+/btl) but in the 2-3mos since release, it has risen to A$500-600/btl from what I can tell. If you can still find it at $220, now's the time. It probably won't get cheaper. FWIW, the 1996 is also a great wine [I dipped into my stash too early :-(] and is probably 40% cheaper. The relatively little-known Penfolds wine called RWT (similar red-on-gray label to Grange) is a similar wine, is probably half the price (and maybe 1/3 in a year like 1998) and in terms of bang-fer-yer--buck category, I'd expect it does really well for 1998.
All of which brings me to agree with Asa's point - 'another outlandish decadent hobby'! |
Hi T_bone - In terms of buying The Grange, I recommend checking out winecommune.com. It's essentially the Audiogon of wine. Pretty amazing site - you can buy just about anything. Prices can be pretty good as well. The '98 Grange can still be had for about $220 on the site. Also, if you can find it, Costco has had it for $159. If you're shopping for other Aussie wine, I recommend checking out Clarendon Hills (their '01 Astralis is 100 points by Parker, and the lower end siblings are stunning for the price - each and every one of them - the best Aussie wines I've had). Cheers, and happy listening! |
Hi Outlier, I completely agree on the Clarendon Hills wines. I cannot recommend them highly enough (if you like grenache). I tried and liked them enough to buy a case+ each of the '01 Clarendon Hills Kangarilla, Clarendon, and Blewitt Springs single vineyard grenaches and cellar them. I also like the Liandra shiraz and can find it from time to time here in Tokyo. I have not had a chance yet to drink either the Piggot Range or the Astralis but I hope to. Thanks for the reminder about winecommune.com. I live in Tokyo so shipping would be a problem but it IS a useful resource. I also like WineBid (something I think I learned about from fellow Agoner Twl in another thread) and Wine-Searcher. Friday night and I'm about to open a bottle of '99 Torbreck Steading. Yum! Clink! :^) |
Thanks alot guys, you've just provided me with a few more venues to vent my Epicurean nueroses, which, of course, makes you both enablers!! :0)
I'm lost in the '00 Bordeauxs right now, like a needle skipping in a groove (Help!). The Gruaud Larose is very fine...
Oh BTW Outlier, at $159 I'm speed dialing Costco's at lunch...So, much for that new amp, wire.... |
I hope that nobody here thinks that I would miss a fine wine discussion on the same thread with a fine preamp!
I have enjoyed the Penfold's and I have also found that there are several nice Shiraz made by Grant Burge in the Barossa Valley region of Australia. Even just his basic Shiraz at about $22/bottle is a very nice wine. He has a premium Shiraz at about $100/bottle called Meshach which is a real treat.
Asa, you are in a good place to be stuck! The '00 Bordeaux is quickly gaining the reputation as the wine of the Millenium. Get 'em while you can. |
Hi there
A month ago, I ordered a Chardonnay for myself. I've found lots of problems to transfer the money to Mick's account in Australia. In short, I've lost about US$150. I told Mick about it. His answer:
"$150!!!!!!!!! You are getting ripped off - I would demand an investigation. If you dont get it back I will go half and deduct $75 from price."
Nice. Once again, Mick proved to be truly unique within this audio business. Thanks for that. |
Lisbon, use paypal if you can. |
Has any one listened to the Supratek Burgundy amps. I know this is a preamp thread but seemed the best place to post. The amps look stunning and use the same driver tube as the Lamm ML1.1's. There are alot of reviews and feedback on Supratek preamps but not much on their amps. Any experience with these amps would be appreciated. |
I never heard the Burgundy amps but I am pretty familiar with the Merlots 18 watts and the Converts 45/2A3 monos ( not on Supratek website anymore) .The Merlots use the 6C33C-B russian tube (Lamm ,Tenor , Bat).Excellent amps with great bass , extension on top and liquid midrange .I sold them and got the Converts with the 45 tube .Less power and headroom but still ok with my 104 db speakers .Far more realism , cleaner and the magic of the 45 tube .I used a first generation Syrah preamp for a few days, didn't sound right in my system .
Speaking of russian tube , I just got back my Kora Eclipse with heavy mod (new diodes in PSU , Jupiter caps / Audiocap Theta / resistors/ silver wire ) and the 6h30 replaced the 6922.This tube is on steroids ! So dynamic and transparent . No need for those NOS 6922s and 6SN7s anymore ... |
My Cortese finally arrived this weekend. I have only had a few hours with it but I am feeling a little let down by this preamp - of course I had big expectations. It is twice the price of the Syrah and on first impression, sounds almost identical. I'd say that out of the box, its slightly more refined and controled sounding, it has a wee-bit wider soundstage, and is less extended in the highs. Bass is definately better though....
Overall, right now it feels "tight" as if it still needs some time to break in, relax and open up.
The Electro Harmonix EL34 regulator tubes he sends are garbage to my ears and the first significant improvement I made was to re-box them, throw them under the sofa, and install my TS-5881's. Upon doing that, the Cortese sounded even more like the familiar Syrah. Is that a good thing? I don't know yet. You'd think not... since the Cortese IS twice the price of a Syrah.
So far, I've played with KenRad Black Glass, RCA 5692's, Sylvania Metal Base, and Tung-Sol Rounds. I still like the Ken Rads but I have a feeling that as the Cortese breaks in, the Ken Rads may not be the tube of choice... I'll need to find a new brand. :(
Mick has improved his packaging by leaps and bounds since I received my last preamps - outstanding improvement! Also the overall quality of the product seems to be much better than I experienced previously which tells me they are handling these much more carefully at the factory - during production. Solder joints are all well done and the tube sockets are FANTASTIC! Mick's using new (to me) black tube sockets which are securely fastened to the chasis & really hold the tubes securely. Tougher to tube roll though.
The Remote works flawlessly. Nice two function - slow up/down and fast up/down.
Also, Mick did a new Home Theater By-Pass circuit for me which we developed together. I haven't fully tested it yet but from what I can tell so far its an awesome improvement on the previous implementation of that feature.
Well that's it for now. I'll keep this thread going as I hear the Cortese break in. |
Bwhite - NOS tube suggestions for Chardonnay ?
I'm getting a Chardonnay end of August.
Andy at Vintage Tube Service said the following:
6SN7
Sylvania are extended ( tipped up in treble )
Tung Sol round plate ( very even across freqencies )
RCA ( richer sounding than either of above )
Ken Rad ( pricey, hard to get and Andy said he believes in the RCA )
I ordered Tung Sol.
Mullard 5AR4
I said I wanted to rich sound. And he said Mullard 5AR4 ( 50s ). Andy did not see a reason for buying GZ-32 rather than a 5AR4.
I've read your posts and most others about the Syrah NOS tubes. My room is reflective.
"Standard Ken Rad Black Glass 6SN7GT - Put this tube in a system which is reflective or bright and WHAM! you have air, weight, transparency, body, heft, slam and a natural texture that other tubes only dream of. It s the most beautiful midrange but those who focus on the highest of highs - air and transparency will no doubt be leaving the room. This tube can seem dark to those folks. Using this tube in a darker side of neutral type system or one with dampened room acoustics leaves you wanting something more open... then move up to the VT-231 or NAVY.
Also good is the Sylvania 6SN7w's (metal base). Tung Sol Round plates are pretty good"
I don't have $'s this year to buy a bunch of tubes to try and want to buy from reputable dealer so I can return any microphonic tubes.
The XA777es and Berning are both detailed and fast. And I'm looking to get a lush sound from the Chardonnay. "Asa" likes the Tung Sol but he said you had tried more tubes than him. What would you suggest for 6SN7 and rectifier tube ?
Audio system:
XA777es with Dan Wright mods and TG 688 pwr cord
Berning ZH-270 NOS and Cryo output tubes, TG SLVR pwr cord and ERS kit
Meadowlark Osprey speakers
Sound Apps XE-12
Luminous Synchestra silver speaker cable
Luminous Silver Ref interconnects
RixRax Hoodoo ( plus 60#'s of sand )
thanks for any suggestions,
Ken |
Bwhite, I'm sure the Cortese won't let you down. It will get much better as it breaks in but it will take hours to warm up. When it is fully broken in it sounds so relax and liquid. I couldn't be happier with my Cortese. It is so musical that I can listen for the whole day without any fatique. I'm using the Ken Rad VT231 and I like it better than the Tung Sol 6SN7. The bass of the Ken Rad sounds fuller and with better slam. The Tung Sol round plate sounds clearer in the high but the bass is a bit lean.
Give the Cortese some time to break it and it will give a big smile on your face!
Steven |
Hi Bwhite
I read your post and my first reaction was a smile which is to say, I suspected as much. My guess is that the Syrah is such a complete product that anything bettering it would be to matters of degree, nothing that would overwhelm its performance. While I haven’t heard everything out there, you sure can hear when a product has the fundamental rightness of this design, kudos to Mick and his most astute hearing acuity and design capabilities.
You may have set yourself up in expecting that at twice the cost there should be a proportional improvement correlating to the difference? Of course the laws of diminishing returns rears its head and tells us that while there are always improvements that can be made to any design, the cost of doing so is proportionately higher than the improvement realized. My guess is that the Cortese is a big enough improvement for Mick to justify spending the time and charging the difference to justify its cost and reason to exist with the Syrah but at the same time the Syrah is so fundamentally right that maybe we would expect it to be superceded to a higher degree than is possible looking at the 2X difference in price?
I think over time you will come to realize the differences between the 2 pieces but the question is, will you be able to justify the price difference to others that will look to your opinion in whether it is worth it or not? Just my two cents that I’m adding because of my previous experiences in your letdown. Just give it time, you may arrive at a different conclusion as you live with the Cortese and come to recognize something subtle that it does that escapes the Syrah but which you come to realize is worth the price of admission. I for one am waiting for this to develop as you have been a most articulate and compelling spokesman for Supratek products. |
Georgia, Of all the tubes I've tried (all on your list and then some) I find the Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231 to be my favorite. The Ken Rad Black Glass without the VT-231 marking is too dark for my system with Chardonnay and the Navy's were too bright.
The thing I really like about the Ken Rads is the midrange I can feel in/on my chest during vocals, strings, horns etc. Some people may not like that. The Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base is a great tube - sounds really good but once you hear that tube, it will be difficult to find good things about other Sylvaina 6SN7 tubes because they are so different and the Metal is so good. The Metals have fair midrange texture and weight but tends to sound somewhat in-organic to me.
Yes - the Tung Sol rounds are very nice sounding, very liquid, and a touch of sweetness - However, I found them to sound too shallow compared to the Ken Rads on my Chardonnay. I lost the midrange texture and weight I like.
Hope this was useful. |
Smokeyclr, I am sure the Cortese will open up over the next few weeks. I don't know what to expect with it. The Chardonnay seemed to sound great out of the Box and then all the sudden one day, it sounded better. I do not recall a long drawn out break-in process. From the 'tightness' I hear on the Cortese, I think it may be a wilder ride. Its already sounding better than last night but I don't have a my friends Syrah set up today to compare. |
Tubegrover - very true. The Syrah is a fine piece of gear and what got me leaning toward a Cortese was my relevation with the Aesthetix IO.
I purchased an Aesthetix IO and compared it to the Syrah phono section and was devistated. The Aesthetix (stock) was significantly better than the Syrah. No doubts. So I purchased a Placette volume control and tried to use the Aesthetix without the Syrah line stage. To my surprise, I found the Placette to be dead, lifeless and quite frankly miserable sounding. Between you and me, I seriously do not understand what the folks who use these think they're doing. I even emailed Placette to find out if it was broken. Horrible! Running the Aesthetix IO into the Syrah line stage was a massive improvement over having the Placette anywhere near my system. This tells me that in the context of Syrah vs. IO, the Syrah's line stage is the strong point.
But... then I connected the Aesthetix IO direct to my amp. At 80db output things were a little too loud but what I heard was absolutely stunning. It made the Syrah sound like garbage (sorry but it did). The clarity, dynamics and everything improved massively. Some people talk about a veil being lifted but this was like I finally sat down in the same room the music was playing in - veil was lifted? No, more like a brick wall was lifted.
I told Mick this and he said, you need a Cortese for phono. He suggested he had new tubes which would put the IO in its grave.
So I purchased a Cortese. We'll see. I haven't made similar comparisons yet but will eventually. |
Need some help from the group. I bought a Syrah a few months back and finally getting around to setting it up. The previous owner included a random array of tubes, many NOS but many with labeling that is difficult for me to interpret. I have the 6GK5's and the 5842 pairs identified (WE) for the phono section. Here is what I have left and I think I am missing a voltage regulator:
(2) Sovtek labeled 6N1P (are these 6sn7 equivalents?)
(1)Sylavania 5V4G
(1) RCA 5U4GB
(1) Sylvania 5932
Also don't have a diagram for where they go exactly and Mick's site doesn't give that info (I have a good idea but I want to be sure)
Thanks for the help. |
You're right, you're missing (i) regulator tube. The Syrah will play without regulator tubes but I wouldn't play it that way for too long because I don't know what the effects are. I know this because Mick asked me to do a test once and said, "pull out the regulator tubes and tell me what you hear".
The 5932's are supposed to be quite good if they are the dual black plate variety. If its one of those, try to find another. Most folks seem to have good results with Tung Sol 5881's when used in the regulator position... commonly available on Ebay for not too much cash.
The layout should put the regulator tubes nearest the transformer domes and the 6SN7s should go closer to the phono tubes. - but you most likely already figured that out.
Hope this helps. |
Bryan, the Aesthetix IO is possibly the best phono stage ever made. It will be pretty hard for anything to compare favorably with that unit. And when you get to the dual power supply IO Signature model, and equip it with all NOS tubes, then it is simply unbelieveable.
BTW, the IO is available with built-in volume controls(and a remote), at a fairly large price increase, but you could run it that way, straight into your amp. However, Albert Porter has already tried that, and found that by having his Aesthetix Callisto Signature linestage in the mix, that combination sounded better than the IO straight thru. Albert also found that having Purist power cords on the IO made a nice improvement too.
All this talk about killer phono stages is making me drool. I need to upgrade my phono stage, but lack the funds right now. But soon, I'll be in a position to do something about it.
Regarding the Placette, it is very likely that there were impedance mismatch problems. This is common with resistive passive volume controls. The 41K ohm input impedance of the Lamms didn't like the high output impedance of the Placette. When this happens, everything chokes out and sounds dead. |
Tom, you are correct. The IO is a great phono. But running it direct to the amps was mind blowing. The only thing about that which bothered me (except for the inability to control the volume) was that my drivers were moving & pulsing like crazy. Almost the same behavior as when I experienced the low frequency feedback from the Linn - before I got a wall shelf. With the Aesthetix running direct, there wasn't any feedback - the movement/pulsing of the drivers didn't get progressively stronger it just stayed at a constant level.
I've thought about setting the Aesthetix at 60 or 70db and using it direct ALL THE TIME and at one volume. And depending upon how the Cortese breaks-in, I might do that.
I've been worried about the volume controls for the Aesthetix because I suspect they will do a lot of what the Placette did. I know that most folks like the active stage with the IO except I doubt many have heard the IO direct to the amp. It takes balls of steel to hook a high gain phono pre direct to a pair of amps. :) Man was it worth it!
FYI - The remote is not exactly available for the IO. When they upgrade standard or MkII units to Sig status they receive a new chasis which accomodates the "upcoming" remote volume control mechanisim - which may not be coming according the Michelle and Jim.
Mick seems to think the Cortese is at par with the IO - time will tell and I'll let you know. |
"Am I the Luckiest Man Alive" Supratek IS THE BEST!!
(My earlier Post, re-posted with corrections)
Hello to BWhite; Steven; Asa; Slowhand; waltersalas; Fiddler ; Dennis the Menace; Jazzdude; Tubegroover and all the other happy Supratek owners at Audiogon. You are all people of discriminating taste and have chosen well by using Supratek pre-amplifiers. These exotic handcrafted products transcend normal Hi-Fi equipment and excel at just producing MUSIC...pure and natural. The Grange/Cortese & Syrah are usually bought by mature audiophiles who have gone beyond the usual brand names, i.e, by people who have a strong desire to try something 'special', something out of the ordinary.
I have been watching the "Preamp Deal of the Century" thread on this site with interest for some time and have refrained from joining in, but I will do so now. Please be patient with me as this will be a long, but interesting post.
By way of introduction, my name is Steve M. and my family and I live in Perth - Western Australia, a beautiful city of one million people, located on the banks of the Swan River , a city enjoying a warm Mediterranean climate surrounded by clear blue skies and white sandy beaches.
I have been doing this hi-fi thing for about 25yrs now, since the 1970's and have gone thru' mountains of good equipment. Albeit purchased in a realistic manner, considering that besides my hi-fi habit, I also have a lovely Irish lass and three young children to sustain!
I first met Mick Maloney of Supratek fame in 1984, when we both lived in a small coastal fishing village called Dongara - Port Denison, where our respective families lived and worked for a time. Mick and I belonged to and played a game of squash (raquetball) at the local sports club. Funnily enough, we never discussed hi-fi during this time and I was not aware that he was "The Mr Supratek" (or Micrex as it was known at the time). Those were the days when my hi-fi system was rather humble, comprising of a Thorens turntable with a solid state Luxman integrated amplifier and big Wharfedale E90 loudspeakers.
To cut a long story short, Mick and I met up again in Perth around 1996 when I bought my first 6SN7 Transformer Coupled pre-amplifier from him. This was a little prototype preamp built very cheaply and in a minimalist fashion. But the sound of it into my Quad Electrostatic loudspeakers was phenomenal! This little pre had clarity, transparency and detail in spades like no other commercial preamp that I had heard during the last 15yrs swapping and changing equipment. It was as if somebody had lifted a veil or lifted the curtain and I was able to see the performers on the stage for the first time. That was it - I was hooked on Supratek (hook-line-and-sinker as we Aussies like to say).
WHY AM I THE LUCKIEST MAN IN THE WORLD, you ask? It's for two reasons, firstly, Mick and I have developed a friendship and I have had the privilege of being associated with one of the World's premier valve amplifier designers having seen and heard almost every Supratek product in my home, and being at the forefront of any new developments.
I think in a way Mick likes to hear his amps in a domestic situation, so he has used me as a 'test bed' for his products. This is probably because of my keen ears and also because of my high resolution audiophile sound systems comprising of various equipment which have included from time to time Meridian/Sony/Marantz CDP's; Bel Canto DAC-1 D/A Converter; Perpetual Technologies P3A DAC; Roksan Xerxes Turntable/Koetsu Rosewood; Nelson Pass Aleph 3 and Krell KSA100 power amps; various other brand name valve amps; Quad ESL's and another ultra thin-membraned superfast electrostatic called the E.R Audio ESL-3 (using a very thin 3.8micron mylar membrane) ; Proac Response 2.5 spkrs; Yamaha NS1000/NS1200 Monitors; Nordost/Van den Hul/XLO Ref One cables; Focal Kevlar 8K5412 Transmission Line subwoofers; and the superbly detailed W.A.R Audio Reference Two loudspeaker...a 90kg $20,000AUD speaker array consisting of ten drivers including Raven R1 Ribbon tweeters/dual Accuton Ceramic mids and dual Cabasse 21NDC honeycomb foam bass units.
Take it from me guys, Mick Maloney 'IS THE REAL DEAL'! He is a true master of the dark arts of valve amp building and his knowledge with valves is second to none, combined with a passion for listening to music. Most importantly, IMO his honesty and integrity cannot be faulted. Sure he's not perfect(no one is?), he has a business to run and he is not a saint and will not suffer people who waste his time. But having known the guy for several years now, when you deal with Mick you are dealing with the Designer-Owner-Builder-Keen Listener of an extremely exotic handbuilt hi-end product...a product he takes great pride and satisfaction in presenting to music lovers worldwide. No Supratek amplifier leaves Santa's workshop until it is operating and sounding exactly the way Mick would have it sounding in his own personal sound system! Take note too, that he has mentioned to me that customer back-up is very important to him. He will drop everything to first sort out a customer problem - you can't ask for any more than this, can you?
Getting back to the other reason why 'I am the luckiest man in the world'. I own a lot of Supratek gear (and I DO mean a LOT!!). I currently run in my main system the Cabernet linestage preamp with the Merlot monobloc power amps. And, I also have in my collection a Cortese; various phono prototypes; other amp creations by Mick including a big 845/211 power amplifier; a lovely sweet sounding 2A3/6B4G amp; an 807 amp; various prototype Corteses etc. and a pair of Edgar Horn spkrs built by Mick!! I have also had the pleasure of hearing the new 6C33C-B Supratek Burgandy push-pull 100watt power amps and other OTL designs by Mick, in my home.
So I think you could conclude that I am indeed 'lucky'! And I suppose well qualified to comment on the sound of Supratek amps & preamps.
*** Now onto the subject of the sound of the Supratek preamps and amplifiers. I'm sure Asa, Bwhite and some of the others may be able to put it more eloquently. But to me, the sound of Supratek can be summed up as providing uncompromised detail, purity and liquidity, a sense of realism and an impression that the performers are in a 'natural acoustic space'. With a Supratek amp, the music flows along with an unstoppable urgency (good Pace, Rhythm & Timing), it sounds more like the real thing, 'alive' sounding and less like the music is being reproduced by electronic equipment.
Does the new Grange preamp sound better than the Cortese? Well of course it does, otherwise Mick would not present it as something 'better'. It's not about marketing hype and selling for the sake of a diversified product line with Supratek, its all about trying to produce the BEST sound! I have followed the gestation of the Grange over a twelve month period. Mick has a furtive mind and a creative imagination, and from what I can see the Grange came about as an idea of Mick's to further improve the circuit of the Cortese while at the same time trying to use the exotic meshplate TJ 101D Directly Heated Triode tube (which has a reputation for purity of sound). He was successful in this endeavour, and voila, you now have the Grange.
Having said this, the Grange is not drastically different from the Cortese (depending on your perspective, of course). I have used the Cortese for over two years now and I love it! It is extremely musical in the best valve tradition with an 'aliveness' to die for, clarity and detail that is hard to beat - no matter the price. No one with a Cortese could ever be disappointed with it. The Grange just does a little more of everything with a greater sense of purity and a very clean hear-through character.
What makes Supratek preamps so special is the implementation of tried and true valve amp technology, the use of carefully chosen parts and their handcrafted nature, all of which is now considered somewhat exotic. The Grange/Cortese/Syrah employ sophisticated but simple circuits that are point to point hardwired with Teflon coated silver wire; with zero feedback; in pure Class A; Transformer Coupled; in Single Ended Triode mode; Lithium Battery Biased with a big separate power supply that is valve rectified and regulated. All features which the 'big boys' can't do (because some don't know how) or won't do because of the commercial reality to keep production costs down ??
As a final point, I have noticed that there is a lot of discussion about the merits of tube rolling with the 6SN7 output valve in the Cortese and Syrah. Personally, I think that Mick has carefully chosen the stock 6N8P (a 6SN7 equivalent) based on its sonic merits and there is no real need to replace the valve with another. I have in my collection the 6N8P and various 6SN7's including the black Ken Rads; black Brimars with red bases; Toshiba; Raytheons; Mullards and the Sylvania VT231. If I had to chose a favourite it would be the Sylvania VT231 because I find it the most transparent and the highs are sweetest(it can sometimes be a bit be microphonic though). I feel the Cortese and Syrahs are so inherently musical, that it does not make a huge difference swapping valves so long as the valve is nice and fresh, and not noisy to begin with. My advice on this is don't get anal about it, just enjoy the music!
I hope this has been interesting reading for you guys, I have enjoyed writing it.
Please note, I have no affiliation with Supratek or Mick Maloney other than I am a very happy and enthusiastic user of Supratek products.
Regards,
Steve M. |
Thanks Bwhite, that is what I figured, I think the seller just forgot to include the other 5932 by simple mistake. I also learned some things about the mods done on this particular Syrah by John Tucker by reading some today at AA. Apparently Tucker and some others over there are fans of the 6N1P current loaded and parafeed. This along with stepped attenuators/grayhill source and modified power supply. I think I'll be getting a diferent "slice" if you will of the Syrah, better or worse I'll probably never know but I'm sure I'll be happy as I have not had a system up and running for some time and this is the pre I chose to get my feet wet again. Thanks again for your help |
Petland, Talk to tucker about the mods he did just to find out what was changed. Don't go putting the 5u4g in the preamp until you talk to Mick about it. SupraTek preamps require indirecly heated (slow-start) rectifiers. GZ32, GZ34, GZ33, and GZ37 are okay. Mick uses the GZ37 in his personal preamp. I prefer the GZ33 in mine. Either are less expensive than the NOS Mullard and Amperex GZ34 and they last longer and output more current to boot.
Any of the older NOS 6L6G/6L6GA made by Sylvania, RCA, Tung-Sol or Ken-Rad will do nicely in the SupraTek preamp. I've also used Syl 5932, TS 5881, and RCA 6L6GC blk-plt. Mick uses the 7027a as regulator in his pre. I have several pairs of these but haven't gotten around to trying them out.
For 6SN7 try the RCA grey-glass, Sylvania VT-231, Sylvania 6SN7GT bottom-getter with green lettering, KEN-RAD black glass. There are many more but these are the most notable. |
Bryan, Albert Porter was experiencing a similar problem with his IO. It turned out that by placing a small weighted bag of shot on the lid, the problem went away. The frequency of his problem was different than yours, so this may or may not work in your application. I'm sure you are aware that woofer pumping is subsonic, and could be generated from the turntable or even the record.
It's an interesting idea, just setting the gain on the IO to be compatible at a single volume for your listening preference. If you can feel comfortable with a single volume level for everything, then that would be the ultimate transparency as far as volume control goes. No volume control is about as clear as it gets. That would really be "pushing the envelope" regarding short signal path philosophy, wouldn't it!?
I think your system is cool, and I like to watch what you are doing with it. Hope you don't think I'm "butting in". |
Tom - absolutely not. I don't think you're butting in. We're here to help one another right? I appreciate your help. Thank you.
Regarding the "same problem" that Albert Porter experienced, are you referring to the woofer pumping? I thought he used Sound Lab Ultimate speakers - which have no woofers.
I am aware that woofer pumping is subsonic. Prior to installing a wall shelf for my turntable, I had a miserable problem with woofer pumping which got progressively worse every second the music played - but it was somewhat different than what I experienced running the IO direct to the amps. With the IO direct, the woofers just moved a lot - it didn't get progressively worse - it seems as though it was some kind of impedance mis-match or perhaps sending an "unregulated signal" to the amps was not okay with 'em? I dunno.
Yep.. running the IO direct quite simply, showed me a potential for my system I was previously unaware of. While the sound was worlds better, it still needed & had room for improvement since at the time I was running all stock (russian) tubes in the IO. I expect that running the right NOS tubes in the IO direct configuration would produce even better results.
If any one out there has the ability to run the phono direct to the amps - by-passing the volume, I highly recommend it for an eye opening experience. Nothing I have ever heard in audio has produced such massive gains. The difference in sound was quite honestly like comparing a clock radio to a "decent" system. |
thanks Jazzdude, I have an email in to John Tucker |
Yes, Bryan, Albert runs Soundlabs, so the "woofers" weren't pumping, but he had a feedback like sound coming out. It was frustrating, but he eventually found that there was something causing the IO to vibrate and cause this problem. In his case it wasn't subsonic, and maybe the excitation in your case is at a different frequency, but it might be solved in a similar way. With the amount of gain at micro signal levels in that IO, it doesn't take much to make something happen.
As far as your woofer pumping goes, it must be a signal or resonance of some kind. I'm sure the IO must have a relatively low output impedance of around 1k Ohm or maybe less. That should be just fine with the Lamms. Did you try running it with the tonearm leads unplugged? That would isolate the problem to either the IO or the turntable. I just have this gut feeling that it's not an impedance thing when going direct from the IO.
Glad I'm not butting in. :^) |
Hello Petland. Regarding the RCA 5u4gb rectifier suppled. It will work- however it is a "directly heated" full wave rectifier and not recommended.I would consult Mick with regards to using it, Indirecty heated rectifiers[recommended] will prevent cathode stripping of the other tubes in the line.The sylvania 5v4g that you mentioned is a good rectifier especially when used in conjunction with the early gt versions of the sylvania 6sn7's. I don't know why the guy would send you a 5u4g.Perhaps that was in error for the other 5932. Enjoy. Cheers David. |
Has anyone replaced the umbilical cord ?
Curious is anyone has tried this. And what if any audible changes you heard. Also was it worth the $'s invested?
I'm getting my Chardonnay end of August. I use TG Audio SLVR and 688 power cords. And they made a significant improvment to my XA777es and Berning ZH-270.
- Ken |
Ken, I have questioned the same thing.
I have wondered myself if the umbilical cord could be limiting the Supratek at all. After hearing what power cords and great IC's can do, I am very curious about what gains a replacement for the stock umbilical cord would produce. |
Fiddler, the same thing you said about the H-Cat was said when I got one of the first Syrahs and raved about it. |
Why doesn't the First Sound Preamp get the same enthusiatic response as the Supratek. I think sometimes that the chase, just as with sex, is more important than the catch. I conversed with Mick via email, and while he seemed very, very nice, I came away wondering about waiting 7 months like Tubegroover did for his pre. Kind of like going to the hottest restaurant waiting two hours. Is it worth the wait. I know, I know, apples and oranges, but generally the mystique takes presidence for we groupies.
Right here in Washington, we have Emmanuel Go handcrafting what some people describe as the finest preamp around. Just finished a review in which it was given the nod over the Holiest of Grail pres. Plus the guy is a complete prince to talk to.
I would be the first to agree that other than speakers, which are electro/mechanical, and usually have the strongest personality, that if you have a good source, the pre, driving an amp is the icing on the cake. So the question is; what is so glamorous about waiting 3 to 7 months for a preamp when we have such a great product in our midst. Maybe someone out there has compared these two and found Mick's to be vastly superior. Is that it?
Thanks,
Larry |
Hi Larry
I think the appeal of the Supratek is the value, aesthetics (if you happen to find the open architecture attractive) and performance. What caught my attention was the description of its sound, which in my experience comes with a much higher price tag. Liquid, dynamic, resolving with excellent bass from a tube pre usually involves a hefty power supply, which aren't done on the cheap. Consistent descriptions of this pre delivering these qualities at 2.5K open ones eyes. At least it did mine.
There are many in this hobby that are value driven for several reasons, limited resources and the fact that some don't want to spend more than is necessary regardless of the resources available. What Mick Maloney has managed with this pre is to offer a product that is within the price reach of any serious music lover without too many compromises other than the fact that there is a wait involved because it is individually hand assembled by Mick himself, another appealing fact.
There is no doubt the First Sound pre is a great piece and its upgradeability is another appealing reason for its consideration. Still it starts at 500.00 more than the Supratek Sarah and doesn't include a phono stage. The point is that the value of Supratek products can not be overstated. There are many audiophiles that will pass on it because they don't want to wait and they would be wary of service from a one-man shop on the other side of the world, something to think about. On the other hand when you hear this pre-amp first hand the considerations should be, do I want to wait and locating a tech who can fix the pre if there is a problem. I would expect that problems would be minimal but would arise initially as they do with most products. These problems could be resolved through Mick. His service ethic is top notch but one must remember, he is a one-man shop and isn't superman.
The price/performance of the Supratek Sarah and Chardonney is definitely worth these considerations. Interestingly enough, I was just speaking to someone last week concerning this pre vs. a First Sound. He is going ahead with the First Sound because he doesn't want to wait and he is afraid of not getting prompt service if something does go awry. I am sure this will keep many folks from considering this great product. I did have a problem during shipping, it seems customs cut an opening in the box to inspect it and "threw" the pre back in without properly repacking it. When I received it, the cans were resting on the bottom of the box without any support, the rectifier tube and cord were missing and 2 tubes were shattered along with some minor damage to the wood case, which I repaired. Everything else was ok. Mick was extremely upset with this development and offered to send a new pre out to me the next day! I was also upset but did calm down a bit after I finally got some tubes in it to listen, didn't have any 6sn7's on hand so had to wait. The point is that he was extremely concerned and responsive and I was just so blown away by the music coming from the pre that the shipping problems I did have just went out the window. I never even bothered to file a claim to Fed-ex since it really wasn't their fault. What I was really pissed at and still am is that the apes working for customs didn't show the respect for personal property that they should and will never will because they are immune from the consequences of their actions.
On another tangent but one worth considering to all that read this is to please report this when and if it happens to you. Only if enough do will steps be taken to change the procedures of inspections. There is really no excuse for the condition of the contents I received. It really did look as though a kid threw the contents in the box without the LEAST consideration for its safe arrival to its final destination. |
Hey, Larry--
The First Sound is an excellent preamp, no question. I had it in my system for nearly a year and enjoyed every minute of it. I could have lived happily with it, I believe, were it not that I wanted to get back into vinyl, wanted a pre with a phono stage, and stumbled upon this thread when it first appeared. In short, I did wind up ordering a Syrah and put in my six months of waiting like everyone else, so I have had the opportunity to compare and contrast these two preamps.
The First Sound definitely paints a blacker background and is less sensitive to tube noise, although the Supratek can get pretty quiet if you fiddle around long enough with isolation and, more importantly, getting good tubes. It takes a little time, but is well worth the effort. Still, advantage in this area goes to First Sound, which has the lowest noise floor I have heard in my system to date. It is almost eerie, especially for a tube preamp.
Also, the First Sound is incredibly dynamic. Matched with components that are up to the task, this preamp will rock your world. It has incredible impact on all kinds of music. If you lean toward solid state, but want some tube warmth in your system, the First Sound may be the ticket for you, as it has NONE of the "mushiness" frequently associated with tubes. It is clean and clear as a whistle, but without any grain or stridency.
The Supratek, on the other hand, is much more liquid and has a far better layering of instruments, WITHOUT sacrificing dynamics. By comparison, the First Sound seems almost compressed. I think this is the main reason so many people are in love with the Syrah. As has been said before, there is something about its presentation that just feels "right." With a lot of audio gear, even the First Sound, I am more aware of listening to the gear--this one does that better, that one does this better--than the music. That can be fun, but it's not really what it's all about for me. With the Supratek, you can let all of that go and just enjoy the music. I have found nothing in high end audio that I would consider as purely musical as the Supratek.
Some people may prefer the First Sound, and it is a terrific pre, but I much prefer the Syrah in my system. Believe me, it was worth the wait. With the best restaurants, it will be the meal you remember, and not the wait. The same thing applies here, I think.
Best of luck.
|
Larry,
You are quite within your rights to 'question' rather than just 'take a leap of faith' by purchasing a Supratek. But look at the specifications and design implementation of the Supratek, and you'll know it's built like no other.
Tubegoover & Waltersalas have put it nicely, and I don't need to say much more, however:
Firstly, on aesthetics alone the Supratek Syrah is a gotta-have product, it looks like a million dollars and like it's just come out some funky Art Studio. The combination of Jarrah timber and chrome works really well and scintillates. It illicits positive comments from every visitor to my home (without exception so far).
Secondly, it definitely has the sound to match!
Thirdly, I'm not familiar with the First Sound pre, but compare it's construction to Supratek. Is it hard wired with silver or is it full of thin printed circuit boards? Has it got a separate power supply with a huge toroidal transformer the size most 100w power amps have? Is it Single Ended Triode? Lithium Battery biased? Transformer Coupled? does it use valves for Rectification/Regulation? Does it use expensive Auriecaps? If the answer is 'No' to a lot of these questions, then there is no way it will be as good as the Supratek.
Like all things in audio (especially with writings on the net) it is good to question and enquire, sort out the bulls_ _ _ from the truth, but to me there's no contest between Supratek and the others as it provides good value and 'Holy Grail' type sound to boot.
Regards,
Steve M |
Stevem,
The First Sound is hand wired with separate power supply. Plus it is completely copper enclosed inside the outer shell, helping with EMI/FR rejection. Even the fans of the wonderful Supratek, (I am one without hearing it) would say that with a one to one comparison it is quieter.
I guess the question is: and this haunts all grail hunters, which one is better?
Obviously sometimes it is a function of matching etc, and not emperically true for everyone.
Mick is a great guy, but I always question 4 to 7 month waits, with associated service issues.
Tubegroover is an obviously good listener, and I already respect his writings. So if he likes it that is enough for me. And I have seen almost all of these things first hand in my travels to 100 stores working inside the industry.
Thanks
Larry |
Hi Larry,
From your description the First Sound pre looks like it's got great potential! I understand your apprehension about waiting a few months for the Supratek, but you know the old saying 'good things come to those who wait'.
BTW, the Supratek also has a solid copper chassis under that shiney chrome exterior.
Regards,
Steve M. |
I have been withholding this but I think it just needs to be said so no one will have any misunderstanding or apprehension, don't think about it if you are, just do it. If you have a budget that permits it, you can't make a wrong decision with the Supratek. It is impossible unless you are prepared to spend considerably more money. Even so, the decision will still be valid because it can be resold without losing anything or very little and if you don't go ahead with it you will most likely never have the opportunity to hear if you made the right choice or not and the curiosity will never subside until you forget but after so many posts on this thread and still counting, the death of curiosity may prove quite slow.
My reason for the above comment is because I have communicated with a few that are on the fence and I have been too conciliatory to their concerns, the wait and the service. This is the real deal it can't be overstated. It is a 7K or better pre for 2.5K, it really is. I waited 5 months longer than I should have. If only I had believed what I read from the beginning. Read Mark Bucksath review on the Supratek website, and read it very carefully http://www.supratek.biz/review.htm
If you can connect to the contents of his most wonderful descriptives of this product, you will hear the Syrah. Keep in mind this recommendation is based on the extreme value of what you will hear, not in the context of the "best" that may be available. If you are prepared to pay considerably more, you will certainly have more choices. I have NO doubt this is the best pre-amp value at this price point on the planet and it is very easy to say it. |
Agree with you 110% Tubegroover !!
My relationship with Mick Maloney is a bit closer than most of you (see my ealier post on "Am I the Luckiest Man in the World"), so I have to be careful in what I say. But Tubegroover is right - the Supratek Cortese/Syrah will be very hard to improve on within reasonable money (say $10,000USA).
You have no idea the development (both technical and listening sessions) that has gone into the Supratek products. Not only does he have 30 years of valve amp building under his belt and a great love of music, Mick is tapped into an underground network of audio constructors and enthusiasts from Europe to Japan to Australia to New York, and with the wonders of the Internet collaborating, inventing, and improving upon their creations! Out of this melting pot, you have before you things like the Cortese and Syrah, it's not a wonder they sound so good - it's because they are constructed with fresh ideas, years of proven concepts and driven by the sheer enthusiasm of their creator(Mick!).
Never forget also, that Supratek is NOT a big wheel. It has no marketing machine, has no brand recognition like Mark Levinson or Audio Research - yet it is succeeding (or should that be 'exceeding')in this very competitive hi-end scene, purely based on word of mouth of what an excellent product it really is!! If this doesn't say it all nothing does...
Regards,
Steve M. |
Supratek Cortese - 10 Days Old
It's been 10 days since I received my Cortese and it is still breaking in - slight changes mostly - nothing too dramatic at all.
My current feelings about the Cortese are similar to what they were on the 20th when I unpacked & plugged in the unit.
One thing I will say now is that the Cortese offers me exactly what I wanted from the Chardonnay/Syrah but didn't know it. Does that make sense? :) As we all know, in audio it often takes something better to make clear what we've been missing. The Cortese is sonically similar to the Syrah - yet a bit more transparent. The highs are a bit more refined and the bottom end is a more powerful. Overall, I would say that the improvements make up for the few shortcomings of the Chardonnay/Syrah which - as I said before, I never knew existed.
Other refinements include NO HUM WHATSOEVER in both phono and line stage. Amazing. NO MICROPHONICS when touching / taping the chassis. My Chardonnay used to make "piano" sounding noises when the chassis was touched the wires inside rattled and stuff like that. Annoying. But... this is totally not an issue with the Cortese.
The PROBLEM I have with the Cortese is this...
When the first Cortese's were made the tube compliment was totally different than today's Cortese. 4 regulator tubes, 4 driver tubes. Today, the Cortese has the exact same tube compliment as the Syrah (with the exception of phono)..
A side note - tongue in cheek - if you're planning to buy a Grange, maybe you should do it before it is re-released with the same tubes as the Cortese and the Syrah.
So what differentiates the Cortese from the Syrah? What makes it better? Same tubes and different circuit it seems. Opening up the Cortese exposes about 40 - 60% more wire and different parts than are contained in a Syrah.
Looking at the inside of the Chardonnay, I often wondered why it took Mick so long to build these things. Looking inside the Cortese, I cannot even imagine HOW HE BUILDS THESE. Pretty complex stuff going on in there.. and a very tight spot to work in.
So... after looking inside this unit, I've got to say the problem I had with wondering what differentiated the Cortese from the Syrah is GONE.
While this is certainly not the definitive Cortese review, it is beginning of what is starting to seem more & more like a worthwhile investment & improvement over the Syrah each day. I am very excited to hear what happens over the next 10 days and will certainly report back. |
bwhite - How many hours do you have on the cortese over the course of those 10 days? My cortese is dead quite also, but my chassis is slightly microphonic to the touch. Probably a result of my 6SN7's and not a reflection of the cortese. I am using symposium rollerblock jrs under my chassis and I use hal-o tube dampers also. |
I will attempt to shed a little light on First Sound vs. Syrah.
I listened to them side-by-side and must say that they are very close in sound. My Syrah had rolled tubes to Tung-Sol & Ken Rad. I found this change was a great improvement and a must to get close to the First Sound. I did have microphonic issues when touching the Syrah. Dynamics on both are outstanding.The soundstage presentation are very similar with open & revealing sonics without brightness. I do enjoy vinyl and loved the Syrah phono section. But I kept the First Sound as the "stock" preamp had a slight edge on presentation - without modifification, and no microphonic issues. However the cost with an additional phono stage ( ARC PH3SE used) was $1,500 more than the Syrah. This makes the Syrah the best value hands down, but the First Sound has the edge on sonics, plus all First Sound amps can be upgraded. And the debate continues..... |
