A lot of responses have talked about microphonics associated with tubes.(A very real and nagging problem) Years ago I designed a product which solves this knotty problem, and it is really magical, and anyone who is handy can build it. It is nasty to do and takes a wierd combination of products, but works better than anything I have ever seen, including several hundred dollar items. I have used it with preamps, cd players, amps, all with great success. It is not snake oil just good common sense. I am happy to share the method of build, and ingredients necessary to build it, with anyone who wants to at no charge or gain to me. I AM NOT SELLING ANYTTHING HERE, Just trying to help eliminate a problem. email me at
lrsky@bellsouth.net. and I will share the build technique.
Happy listening. |
I have gotten several emails from people, regarding this microphonic damping device, and rather than try to answer them all individually, David, the first to inquire, asked me to simply send out the copy of what I sent him. This is a little disjointed, but if you have any questions let me know. Here it is:
David,
Years ago I build a product, called "The Platform".
It is messy and gross but it works better than anything I have ever used for vibrational isolation for preamps, turntables amps etc. My Gryphon is sitting on it now, and even the hardest core, I don't hear the difference people are shocked. Here is how to make it.
You need really solid hardwood for the outer frame. Take 3/4" by 1.5" hardwood and make a rectangular frame of 19x16". Buy some of the fishing worms (several bags) and 8# lead shot. Buy two pieces of thin wood, like an 1/8th inch plywood. Then buy four threaded sleaves and four Teflon screws. Drill the outer frame to allow for the sleeves, (the kind with teeth in the bottom, so they will grip) Do not breath these fumes as they are probably toxic. Melt the fishing worms into a boiling liquid, (just break down the solid mass really), and mix in the lead shot. The outer frame is made this way, finger join it if you can, then put the rather thin wood on the bottom stapling and gluing it so that it will contain the mass. Then pour this goop into the outer frame, obviously with the bottom attached. Then cut the top piece, so that it does not touch the outer frame. Leave about a 1/8 inch all around. (IT must not touch) Then after it cools, put the Teflon feet into the outer frame. It will be normal for the bottom to sag some because this will weigh about 100# (90# was average since you are using about 50# of shot) At the end of this process, you will have a device that will set on top of a mass, that contains lead shielding at the bottom, and is resting on four Teflon feet, that are what did I say 1/8 " in diameter. After it cools David, if you hit it, it resonates at less than probably 10 cycles.
I am telling you as an audio nut, that this sound goofy, but nothing I have ever heard, does what this does. My Gryphon sounds completely smooth and more open at the same time, better bass extension. Every improvement you can imagine, because the energy, microphonic, and RF are shunted into this piece, and because of its considerable mass, it seems to go away. What makes this really cool, is that the Gryphon already employs isolation techniques.
Did I mention that the platform will set about 1/4" from touching, even at the bowed center of it? Wow, I just realized that I had never committed this to paper before (or cyperpaper). All this will cost less than maybe 100 bucks and you will think you spent 5K upgrading your system. It can be replicated and used under cd players also.
Also, there is a less unwieldy 30# unit that we started with, but the return is exponentially better on this heavier one. If you have any questions email me, or even call me, at 502 671 7870. Maybe we can start a mfg company. Good luck, and good listening. Larry Ps This damn thing is dangerous because the mass is so dense. Be careful please and do not attempt to lift it by yourself.(Also, I forgot to, duh tell you to counter sink the Teflon screws. |
Why doesn't the First Sound Preamp get the same enthusiatic response as the Supratek. I think sometimes that the chase, just as with sex, is more important than the catch. I conversed with Mick via email, and while he seemed very, very nice, I came away wondering about waiting 7 months like Tubegroover did for his pre. Kind of like going to the hottest restaurant waiting two hours. Is it worth the wait. I know, I know, apples and oranges, but generally the mystique takes presidence for we groupies.
Right here in Washington, we have Emmanuel Go handcrafting what some people describe as the finest preamp around. Just finished a review in which it was given the nod over the Holiest of Grail pres. Plus the guy is a complete prince to talk to.
I would be the first to agree that other than speakers, which are electro/mechanical, and usually have the strongest personality, that if you have a good source, the pre, driving an amp is the icing on the cake. So the question is; what is so glamorous about waiting 3 to 7 months for a preamp when we have such a great product in our midst. Maybe someone out there has compared these two and found Mick's to be vastly superior. Is that it?
Thanks,
Larry |
Stevem,
The First Sound is hand wired with separate power supply. Plus it is completely copper enclosed inside the outer shell, helping with EMI/FR rejection. Even the fans of the wonderful Supratek, (I am one without hearing it) would say that with a one to one comparison it is quieter.
I guess the question is: and this haunts all grail hunters, which one is better?
Obviously sometimes it is a function of matching etc, and not emperically true for everyone.
Mick is a great guy, but I always question 4 to 7 month waits, with associated service issues.
Tubegroover is an obviously good listener, and I already respect his writings. So if he likes it that is enough for me. And I have seen almost all of these things first hand in my travels to 100 stores working inside the industry.
Thanks
Larry |
Hmmmmm....zazen...hmmmmm, I get it. Laugh. I told you it sounds funny. But if you know just a little, not even a lot, about engineering, you have a basic understanding that the lead can act as a rejection from field effects, and the Fishing worms, (lets make that sound less funny by calling it what it is, a sorbothane type, not exactly, but similar plastic) absorbs energy. We all know that this is used in the heels of some running shoes. So laugh, its ok, don't do it. Those who do will get a great return for the amount of the investment. No different than putting the crossover outside the speaker, or the power supply outside of the pre amp. It may sound goofy since I didn't bother to give the ingredients some secretly coded names, but if you look at the real why's there are fundamentally sound reasons.
One speaker manufacturer who you all know, but I won't mention, after witnessing this change, asked me if he could have my permission to use this basic concept for vibrational isolation, and rf rejection, etc, inside his speaker by putting the crossover into/on such a device. So, if you want to help eliminate microphonics and, help reject some rf, do it. WARNING Do not inhale the fumes, and do not touch the lead while making this.Lead never leaves your body, which is why we don't use lead paint anymore, just fair warning.
Anyone with serious inquiries can email me directly. I only posted this because it works and several people inquired.
Good listening,
Larry |
These are not "just damping devices", as stated by the audiotweak. They also help ameliorate field energy, a real issue in almost all systems, with some being more sensitive to this than others. As someone pointed out Mick's pre is made in the Outback 'down unda', in an area with much less rf saturation than most of all the US cities. I would think it wise to let each listener make his or her own decision.
Also, as an observation on the comments of theaudiotweak, nothing that I have ever heard sounds like real music dynamically or otherwise, because of the enormous problems in the recording process and the limitations of playback capabilities in all gear, from speakers to amps, and throughout the entire chain. Also, I would personally like to hear any system anyhere that offers "all the dynamics contained in live music", as stated by Theaudiotweak, but no such thing exists at this point in our technology.
That aside, if the idea of cleaning up your system from these field effects and microphonics, appeals to you, and don't mind trying some fun project, and you need help building it, you can email me.
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The basic idea here is to rid a given product such as Mick's preamp from "ringing" due to microphonics, or a cd player from going into read error mode.
How exactly can a product such as this, designed for this purpose, limit the amplifiers innate current capabilities? It can't! That is simply impossible.
"Not conducive to the dynamic...structure"...audiotweak, completely misunderstands, the laws of physics here. A product that damps out microphonic energy and shunts rf, and stray energy fields, can in no way, actually limit the desired and stated, accurate output of the amplifier. The current capablility, stability of the amp, how it handles back emf from the speaker all play into that, but a device such as this would not, could not, in any way, limit the dynamic output of any amp, and therefore the "dynamic structure" of any music. This can only rid the product of unwanted vibrations which can in fact, negatively effect its intended output.
As I stated, Gryphon, a highly respected manufacturer, conrad johnson, and most great engineers try to achieve this interally. They recognize this problem and try to 'engineer' these dreaded issues out of their products. None of their solutions, "floating the chasis" in the instance of conrad, limit dynamic output, and neither does this.
So Mick/Supratek fans can improve the sound of their favorite preamp, eliminating the negatives by using such a device, and it is a relatively inexpensive thing to build.
Good listening,
Larry R. Staples |
Amen Tubegroover. You get it Audiotweak does not. The laws of physics simply deny his answer, and are not in dispute.
Of couse these are replicating divices, not the actual intruments, who, as a thinking person could confuse the two?
Output should equal input. Speakers, being an electro/mechanical device, have problems with this, and cabinets are designed to "dampen out" their excesses, the same way the Platform dampens out excess brought in through the room interaction.
Tom can easily recoup his loss by selling his to 84. He is so unhappy with them the price has to be good for the buyer.
My guess is that he won't sell.
Good listening,
Larry |
Well, I was only trying to pass on the design of a product device which solves the basic problems that most of the thread, Supratek owners spoke of, not simply disagree with someone else. This is a device which is offered free, just for the cost of goods necessary, with no gain to me. Anyone who wants to try it please do so. Or if you don't, you can pass. I try not to follow Audiogon members around and dispute them just for the sake of controversy, looking foolish, making incorrect statements along the way. The Audiotweak still has not answered Tubegroovers questions regarding his incorrect comparison of audio gear and its dynamic output, versus the dynamic output of original instruments,(apparently tied to a lead device) or my question as to how the output dynamic output of an amp can be changed (lessened according to him through the elimination, or I should say amelioration) of microphonics and rf. I am sure we would all like to hear about that. 21st Century application of physics, and all the wonderful scientific discoveries since Newtonian Physics, can't make those nonsensical statements make sense.
With our current technologies, Mick's preamp still suffers from microphonic problems, I only offered one potentially decent solution, for anyone who choses to try. And the private response has been overwhelming.
Good listening for all those who appreciate my effort to make the Supratek sound better.
Larry R. Staples |
BWhite,
Your last comments about removing the feet is very telling.
The platform works even with the Gryphon, which has massive sorbothane type feet in the front, and a tip toe type rear foot. This, as well as comments made in email conversations with Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon, has made it clear that he takes vibrational isolation seriously.
The platform is curious in that it shunts the energy within a given product into suspended mass of about (and I forget the exact weight)80#. When you mentioned that you removed the feet and added mass this tells me that the suspended mass of the platform would probably work just as it does on all pieces like this.
Conrad Johnson, suspends their circuit board inside of their higher end preamps, floating them, so that they are not coupled to the outer shell of the preamp. The platform helps this preamp tremendously, even though they do this.
It may be worth your looking into the platform. Everything that I have tried (Preamps, both solid and tube, amps, solid and tube, integrateds, cd players, d/a converters) have been improved by the use of this. As I have warned, it is noxious to make, and the lead presents some health cautions and issues, but the results can, and have been remarkable. Certainly for someone handy it is worth the venture. We spend multiples of this with much smaller improvements. With a product that has the propensity for microphonics this, I believe is made to order.
Laughingly I tell people that the first experiment of this platform was done using an old Harman Kardon Turntable, circa 1985. The table was on a wall mount to decouple it from floor vibrations as much as possible. At that time we used the little platform @30# or less. The table immediately sounded less like an HK and more like a Linn Sondek. OK, OK not that good, but a transformation nontheless. I listened to Marty Robbins singing a song , I think, 'Among My Souveniers', maybe, but the exact title excapes me. But I was completely and utterly surprised. It works! Sort of like Young Frankenstein, "He lives, he lives!" Funny now but also fun to think back on. If you would like more detailing just email me privately. I have never been ceased to be amazed at this thing.
Thanks and...
Good Listening.
Larry |
The discussion is over, but careful readers of this thread should separate the motivations of the contributors here.
I offered a hommade solution to anyone who choses to try it. No gain. Apparently theauditweak is selling the Sistrum. Frankly I am surprised that this unabashed selling is allowed in this thread. I am sure that astute readers can separate the sales pitch from the helpful effort. If you contact the tweak, see if he is trying to help or offering to sell you this Sistrum. Of course the free Platform is not as good, he doesn't make a profit. Hey I am a capitalist, but that is not what this site is for.
My last post. Audiotweak should try for maximum effect with a real zinger here. I hope he sells a ton of them.
Good Listening,
Larry |
More misinformation, and why not, if you don't understand, just disagree.
Well, I said that I wouldn't respond because I wanted to break away, but the statements made are incorrect.
Whether this works or not, is not predicated on the fact that the energy has to "go somewhere" in the sense it is being portrayed here.
The mass of the platform, and its ability to absorb the energy is greater than the devices ability to produce energy or store (retain) energy, and whether or not the mechanical impedence is such that the Platform will accept this transfer. The energy transfered into this mass is converted into potential energy, and suspended in the floating 80# of goo (sorbothane), making it potential energy, as opposed to Kinetic, while taking it out, to some appreciable degree from the device paced on it. The reason the 80# device works better is that it is able to absorb more energy than the smaller one. The key is the mechanical impedence of the top of the platform, and its ability to accept this transfer. Soft, pliant, and massive. Energy will flow in the direction which has the least impedence (or most conducive impedence). Again, don't buy anything from me. Try it if you like.
A short and quick lesson, For this example, Two types of exchange can occur between the system and surroundings: (1) energy exchange (heat, work, friction, radiation, etc.) and (2) matter exchange (movement of molecules across the boundary of the system and surroundings).Two types of exchange can occur between the system and surroundings: (1) energy exchange (heat, work, friction, radiation, etc.) and (2) matter exchange (movement of molecules across the boundary of the system and surroundings). This makes a lot of sense when you consider that the universe is made up of matter and energy--of course they are also kind of the same thing (E = mc^2). Based on the types of exchange which take place or don't take place, we will define three types of systems:
This makes a lot of sense when you consider that the universe is made up of matter and energy--of course they are also kind of the same thing (E = mc^2). Based on the types of exchange which take place or don't take place. This last short inset was taken from text book writings, don't believe me. Just read about it.If you like, and this makes sense, try building the thing.
Please forgive the typos's and misspellings, this was done in a rush.
Good listening.
Larry
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What is the build quality of the Supratek versus some of the other similarly priced and revered preamps?
My personal experience is with the First Sound (among dozens of more main stream pre's) and this showed me a terrific build, and not a homemade look as some smaller companies are wont to do.
I know that it gets rave reviews from owners, but generally owners like or love what they own, so this can be skewed.
Not having seen the Supratek in person,(though the exterior is quite striking) I don't know, but would like to. Can some of the owners of this product comment?
Thanks,
Larry |
The proper response to my question was, "The build quality is......"
No agenda, simply a question.
Someone recently asked me if I had ever seen the build on a Supratek, that's all. I wondered if anyone could comment on it.
I have no doubt that owners of the product, love it, as well they should.
We need to be more gracious to each other, when a simple question is asked.
Larry |
Thanks Kgturner, this is answer I was looking for when I posted, not a bunch of vitriolic name calling and 'agenda' comments.
It seems logical that the vast majority of pre's would not do well if dropped, in fairness. My experience tells me that most of the UPS/FedEx claim issues are from their dropping and poor handling, not faulty packaging as they would tend to suggest to claimants.
I know that Mick has a great 'ear' and his units are revered--it's just that someone I respect had made a back handed comment about Supratek's 'build' quality--which is why I asked.
Thanks again.
Larry |
The question that begs to be asked here is, "What about service, if acquiring one is this difficult". The First Sound, which I have owned is EXCELLENT, and available on order, with very slight waiting time. (I am not affilliated in any way with them) They too are built to order.
I would be very nervous, not to mention impatient with this kind of delay.
My Distributors in Europe have been having a fit over a six week to eight week delay on product, and frankly I can't blame them.
Mick needs some production help to assuage the concerns of potential buyers--given that his pre's are so good, if they were readily available, he could really clean house.
Is he working alone... does anyone know?
Larry |
What about service, if it takes 10 1/2 months to 'get'one. I really don't care if Mick cleans up--I was attempting to not state the obvious, which is how many people don't wait 10 1/2 months, and don't complain on an open forum, they just walk away--and don't purchase.
No, its not presuptuous, and certainly no leap of logic to think that if he makes 10 preamps with quality, instead of 2 or three, in a given period of time (whatever the number) he would have more customers, more satisfied, and without the 'issue' of an almost one year wait, then therefore the potential for people wondering about subsequent 'service'would also be eliminated
If numbers didn't matter at all, perhaps one every three or four years would suit him. I really don't know. |
So, now, here we are a bit later, and some folks (at least one, maybe more) are stating that Mick is gone, and they are owed money.
Isn't this the nature of the questions I asked along the way...."If it takes a year to get one, what about service?" I was villified by some people here, with some saying that I had an 'agenda'. Frankly I did...my agenda was to question Mick's business practice of keeping deposits for a year before delivering, and now, of course, maybe just keeping them period.
Why wait for a year for something that is readily available? The question is as valid now, as when I asked it years ago...the only difference is, some people have lost their money.
During one exchange, in simply asking what to me was the obvious, I received a private email from Mick, and he berated me, and was verbally abusive...maybe under pressure, who knows, telling me to 'mind my own business'.
What is it about audio that elevates some products, seemingly those which are hardest to get, to mystical status, creating a group of people willing to wait for a year?
Personally, I hope Mick is happy and healthy, and that he can return the deposits which some are asking for--for his sake as well as the customers. |
OK, hmmm the legend of the highly revered Mick, lives on. And, even in light of people who have been cheated by him, they, not Mick become the bad guys. What did Maril555 do, other than get cheated, then point it out?
This is pretty remarkable, that even when this comes to light, rational people can't agree that some people, not all, have been wronged. |
Just kidding you Maril555, TVAD, I agree about coloration. Actually, all of audio, regardless of ad hype, is a series of 'pick your color'. Every manmade piece has it's own unique sound. We end up simply deciding which one's seem to be more real to us than others. "Pleasant colorations are the order of the day." One man's overly rounded Vandersteen is another man's 'musical', and one man's sterile THIEL is another man's neutral.
Personally, when I set out to design a speaker, I made it sound the way that I thought it should sound, picking my favorite 'flaws' from a series of flaws.
The only design which escaped that was a 'no holds barred' (sort of) LSA10, in which I picked VERY expensive drivers, then had the crossover made to minimize the known limitations of each one therein. THAT was fun. But even with them, they had colors, but at least, my favorite colors.
As to Micks preamps and amps, he selected a color which pleased a great many people obviously.
It seems that this is the 'thread that wouldn't die', because his products had such a following.
I do find it surprising that there aren't a ton of his products for sale on the Audiogon pages. I suspect that the lack of warranty could be an issue for many. |
All audio gear is 'colored', the different flavors are what make this whole experience wonderful. We all pick the 'color' we like, we chose our flavors. What's wrong with Maril stating that his unit (and by extension all Supratek products) had it's own sound? Tvad just said the same thing--yet no one is attacking his comments.
I know Tvad, and he's a good listener, and though I haven't heard the Supratek, I would accept his appraisal. Do other Supratek owners disagree with his appraisal, or do they think the Supratek to be neutral?
Why is identifying any coloration of a product such a trecherous thing? |
Marill555,
Physian, what is that exactly? You had me until you apparently misspelled
P H Y S I C I A N. |
Pjwd,
Why not heed courtesy on this site and not be so antagonistic.
Generally, the markets are flooded with used products which have sold this well--which doesn't portend dissatisfaction as much as the wonder lust of audiophiles.
As to coloration, I would say again that ALL audio gear has a unique signature, call it coloration or whatever you please--I merely state and will repeat it that Mick picked a 'color' that most people like, a compliment.
I can be more detailed if you don't understand these comments. Most of the people here got it the first time. |
