Preamp Deal of the Century

"Am I the Luckiest Man Alive" Supratek IS THE BEST!!

(My earlier Post, re-posted with corrections)

Hello to BWhite; Steven; Asa; Slowhand; waltersalas; Fiddler ; Dennis the Menace; Jazzdude; Tubegroover and all the other happy Supratek owners at Audiogon. You are all people of discriminating taste and have chosen well by using Supratek pre-amplifiers. These exotic handcrafted products transcend normal Hi-Fi equipment and excel at just producing MUSIC...pure and natural. The Grange/Cortese & Syrah are usually bought by mature audiophiles who have gone beyond the usual brand names, i.e, by people who have a strong desire to try something 'special', something out of the ordinary.

I have been watching the "Preamp Deal of the Century" thread on this site with interest for some time and have refrained from joining in, but I will do so now. Please be patient with me as this will be a long, but interesting post.

By way of introduction, my name is Steve M. and my family and I live in Perth - Western Australia, a beautiful city of one million people, located on the banks of the Swan River , a city enjoying a warm Mediterranean climate surrounded by clear blue skies and white sandy beaches.

I have been doing this hi-fi thing for about 25yrs now, since the 1970's and have gone thru' mountains of good equipment. Albeit purchased in a realistic manner, considering that besides my hi-fi habit, I also have a lovely Irish lass and three young children to sustain!

I first met Mick Maloney of Supratek fame in 1984, when we both lived in a small coastal fishing village called Dongara - Port Denison, where our respective families lived and worked for a time. Mick and I belonged to and played a game of squash (raquetball) at the local sports club. Funnily enough, we never discussed hi-fi during this time and I was not aware that he was "The Mr Supratek" (or Micrex as it was known at the time). Those were the days when my hi-fi system was rather humble, comprising of a Thorens turntable with a solid state Luxman integrated amplifier and big Wharfedale E90 loudspeakers.

To cut a long story short, Mick and I met up again in Perth around 1996 when I bought my first 6SN7 Transformer Coupled pre-amplifier from him. This was a little prototype preamp built very cheaply and in a minimalist fashion. But the sound of it into my Quad Electrostatic loudspeakers was phenomenal! This little pre had clarity, transparency and detail in spades like no other commercial preamp that I had heard during the last 15yrs swapping and changing equipment. It was as if somebody had lifted a veil or lifted the curtain and I was able to see the performers on the stage for the first time. That was it - I was hooked on Supratek (hook-line-and-sinker as we Aussies like to say).

WHY AM I THE LUCKIEST MAN IN THE WORLD, you ask? It's for two reasons, firstly, Mick and I have developed a friendship and I have had the privilege of being associated with one of the World's premier valve amplifier designers having seen and heard almost every Supratek product in my home, and being at the forefront of any new developments.

I think in a way Mick likes to hear his amps in a domestic situation, so he has used me as a 'test bed' for his products. This is probably because of my keen ears and also because of my high resolution audiophile sound systems comprising of various equipment which have included from time to time Meridian/Sony/Marantz CDP's; Bel Canto DAC-1 D/A Converter; Perpetual Technologies P3A DAC; Roksan Xerxes Turntable/Koetsu Rosewood; Nelson Pass Aleph 3 and Krell KSA100 power amps; various other brand name valve amps; Quad ESL's and another ultra thin-membraned superfast electrostatic called the E.R Audio ESL-3 (using a very thin 3.8micron mylar membrane) ; Proac Response 2.5 spkrs; Yamaha NS1000/NS1200 Monitors; Nordost/Van den Hul/XLO Ref One cables; Focal Kevlar 8K5412 Transmission Line subwoofers; and the superbly detailed W.A.R Audio Reference Two loudspeaker...a 90kg $20,000AUD speaker array consisting of ten drivers including Raven R1 Ribbon tweeters/dual Accuton Ceramic mids and dual Cabasse 21NDC honeycomb foam bass units.

Take it from me guys, Mick Maloney 'IS THE REAL DEAL'! He is a true master of the dark arts of valve amp building and his knowledge with valves is second to none, combined with a passion for listening to music. Most importantly, IMO his honesty and integrity cannot be faulted. Sure he's not perfect(no one is?), he has a business to run and he is not a saint and will not suffer people who waste his time. But having known the guy for several years now, when you deal with Mick you are dealing with the Designer-Owner-Builder-Keen Listener of an extremely exotic handbuilt hi-end product...a product he takes great pride and satisfaction in presenting to music lovers worldwide. No Supratek amplifier leaves Santa's workshop until it is operating and sounding exactly the way Mick would have it sounding in his own personal sound system! Take note too, that he has mentioned to me that customer back-up is very important to him. He will drop everything to first sort out a customer problem - you can't ask for any more than this, can you?

Getting back to the other reason why 'I am the luckiest man in the world'. I own a lot of Supratek gear (and I DO mean a LOT!!). I currently run in my main system the Cabernet linestage preamp with the Merlot monobloc power amps. And, I also have in my collection a Cortese; various phono prototypes; other amp creations by Mick including a big 845/211 power amplifier; a lovely sweet sounding 2A3/6B4G amp; an 807 amp; various prototype Corteses etc. and a pair of Edgar Horn spkrs built by Mick!! I have also had the pleasure of hearing the new 6C33C-B Supratek Burgandy push-pull 100watt power amps and other OTL designs by Mick, in my home.

So I think you could conclude that I am indeed 'lucky'! And I suppose well qualified to comment on the sound of Supratek amps & preamps.

*** Now onto the subject of the sound of the Supratek preamps and amplifiers. I'm sure Asa, Bwhite and some of the others may be able to put it more eloquently. But to me, the sound of Supratek can be summed up as providing uncompromised detail, purity and liquidity, a sense of realism and an impression that the performers are in a 'natural acoustic space'. With a Supratek amp, the music flows along with an unstoppable urgency (good Pace, Rhythm & Timing), it sounds more like the real thing, 'alive' sounding and less like the music is being reproduced by electronic equipment.

Does the new Grange preamp sound better than the Cortese? Well of course it does, otherwise Mick would not present it as something 'better'. It's not about marketing hype and selling for the sake of a diversified product line with Supratek, its all about trying to produce the BEST sound! I have followed the gestation of the Grange over a twelve month period. Mick has a furtive mind and a creative imagination, and from what I can see the Grange came about as an idea of Mick's to further improve the circuit of the Cortese while at the same time trying to use the exotic meshplate TJ 101D Directly Heated Triode tube (which has a reputation for purity of sound). He was successful in this endeavour, and voila, you now have the Grange.

Having said this, the Grange is not drastically different from the Cortese (depending on your perspective, of course). I have used the Cortese for over two years now and I love it! It is extremely musical in the best valve tradition with an 'aliveness' to die for, clarity and detail that is hard to beat - no matter the price. No one with a Cortese could ever be disappointed with it. The Grange just does a little more of everything with a greater sense of purity and a very clean hear-through character.

What makes Supratek preamps so special is the implementation of tried and true valve amp technology, the use of carefully chosen parts and their handcrafted nature, all of which is now considered somewhat exotic. The Grange/Cortese/Syrah employ sophisticated but simple circuits that are point to point hardwired with Teflon coated silver wire; with zero feedback; in pure Class A; Transformer Coupled; in Single Ended Triode mode; Lithium Battery Biased with a big separate power supply that is valve rectified and regulated. All features which the 'big boys' can't do (because some don't know how) or won't do because of the commercial reality to keep production costs down ??

As a final point, I have noticed that there is a lot of discussion about the merits of tube rolling with the 6SN7 output valve in the Cortese and Syrah. Personally, I think that Mick has carefully chosen the stock 6N8P (a 6SN7 equivalent) based on its sonic merits and there is no real need to replace the valve with another. I have in my collection the 6N8P and various 6SN7's including the black Ken Rads; black Brimars with red bases; Toshiba; Raytheons; Mullards and the Sylvania VT231. If I had to chose a favourite it would be the Sylvania VT231 because I find it the most transparent and the highs are sweetest(it can sometimes be a bit be microphonic though). I feel the Cortese and Syrahs are so inherently musical, that it does not make a huge difference swapping valves so long as the valve is nice and fresh, and not noisy to begin with. My advice on this is don't get anal about it, just enjoy the music!

I hope this has been interesting reading for you guys, I have enjoyed writing it.

Please note, I have no affiliation with Supratek or Mick Maloney other than I am a very happy and enthusiastic user of Supratek products.

Regards,

Steve M.

Larry,

You are quite within your rights to 'question' rather than just 'take a leap of faith' by purchasing a Supratek. But look at the specifications and design implementation of the Supratek, and you'll know it's built like no other.

Tubegoover & Waltersalas have put it nicely, and I don't need to say much more, however:

Firstly, on aesthetics alone the Supratek Syrah is a gotta-have product, it looks like a million dollars and like it's just come out some funky Art Studio. The combination of Jarrah timber and chrome works really well and scintillates. It illicits positive comments from every visitor to my home (without exception so far).

Secondly, it definitely has the sound to match!

Thirdly, I'm not familiar with the First Sound pre, but compare it's construction to Supratek. Is it hard wired with silver or is it full of thin printed circuit boards? Has it got a separate power supply with a huge toroidal transformer the size most 100w power amps have? Is it Single Ended Triode? Lithium Battery biased? Transformer Coupled? does it use valves for Rectification/Regulation? Does it use expensive Auriecaps? If the answer is 'No' to a lot of these questions, then there is no way it will be as good as the Supratek.

Like all things in audio (especially with writings on the net) it is good to question and enquire, sort out the bulls_ _ _ from the truth, but to me there's no contest between Supratek and the others as it provides good value and 'Holy Grail' type sound to boot.

Regards,

Steve M

Hi Larry,

From your description the First Sound pre looks like it's got great potential! I understand your apprehension about waiting a few months for the Supratek, but you know the old saying 'good things come to those who wait'.

BTW, the Supratek also has a solid copper chassis under that shiney chrome exterior.

Regards,

Steve M.

Agree with you 110% Tubegroover !!

My relationship with Mick Maloney is a bit closer than most of you (see my ealier post on "Am I the Luckiest Man in the World"), so I have to be careful in what I say. But Tubegroover is right - the Supratek Cortese/Syrah will be very hard to improve on within reasonable money (say $10,000USA).

You have no idea the development (both technical and listening sessions) that has gone into the Supratek products. Not only does he have 30 years of valve amp building under his belt and a great love of music, Mick is tapped into an underground network of audio constructors and enthusiasts from Europe to Japan to Australia to New York, and with the wonders of the Internet collaborating, inventing, and improving upon their creations! Out of this melting pot, you have before you things like the Cortese and Syrah, it's not a wonder they sound so good - it's because they are constructed with fresh ideas, years of proven concepts and driven by the sheer enthusiasm of their creator(Mick!).

Never forget also, that Supratek is NOT a big wheel. It has no marketing machine, has no brand recognition like Mark Levinson or Audio Research - yet it is succeeding (or should that be 'exceeding')in this very competitive hi-end scene, purely based on word of mouth of what an excellent product it really is!! If this doesn't say it all nothing does...

Regards,

Steve M.

You guys need to calm down a bit here, and you may be missing the point about Mick's announcment.

The issue at hand is all about 'controlling potential noise problems/mismatches with amplifiers from other manufacturers' with some further improvement in sound. It's not about current Cortese/Grange owners being somehow stuck with an inferior product, it appears that Mick's new circuit maintains the magical sound of the original circuit but at lower gain therefore better matches amplifiers that have high gain.

If noise is not an issue with your current Cortese/Grange in your system then the upgrade is also not an issue?

You are also jumping off the deep end without consulting the master first! Mick is a very approachable and helpful guy who takes great pride in his work. I am sure any of you who require the upgrade need only ask him and he'll probably do it.

Which only confirms my view that a little bit of microphonics doesn't hurt - in fact it can enhance the sound!

I have found that the 6SN7 is an inherently microphonic tube in any preamp. It might sound strange, but of the several different types of 6SN7's that I have, my preference is for the Sylvania VT231. It is a bit microphonic compared to the others, but to my ears it has the most treble extension; a greater sense of 'aliveness'; more openess and gives a nice bloom to the acoustics of the recording studio - making you believe you are 'there'. But in the end even with the VT231 it is still only a relatively small gain, as IMO even the stock 6N8P (a 6SN7 equivalent) sounds very good in a Supratek preamp.

Mick's explanation of noise and gain is a good one. I personally am reluctant to fiddle with my Supratek amps & preamps , believing and trusting that they have left Mick's workshop sounding how they are supposed to sound.

Audio is an interesting and all-absorbing hobby, but we need to be careful of chasing pots of gold under rainbows - they are usually not there...

Regards,

Steve M.

Hi Louis...going direct, been there and done that and the results can be very good, but it's not always the solution?

Having gone down the direct/passive route and then to the Supratek Cortese and Cabernet preamps, I have to agree with Jazzdude and ASA that a preamp brings something to the performance of my system that recreates the musical event significantly better than without it! Like Jazzdude says, the Cortese does something extra that brings the music to life! The texture and tone of instruments and voices become liquid and seductive with a nice three dimensional bloom (with no loss of detail, either). It is not a euphonic sweetening or an 'additive' thing - the music just sounds more correct, more real through the Cortese, it draws you into the music rather than have you analysing it ( as you tend to do with passive/direct devices).

ASA has indicated that once you get a VERY GOOD preamp like the Syrah or Cortese, it becomes the fulcrum/centrepiece of your system (I've used the word 'pivotal' in previous posts). I can't really listen to reproduced music without my Cortese/Cabernet, if I take the Supratek out of my system the whole soundstage collapses and becomes flat and one dimensional.

Also, in going direct from the cdp volume to the amp you are assuming that the power amp sounds 'perfect'. In my experience this is not usually the case. The synergistic result and nuance a good valve preamp brings is NOT a small thing. Particularly, if you use a solid state amp which usually needs the help of a valve preamp to sound nice and add the right tone, texture and upper harmonics to the treble that only valves can bring. I do acknowledge however there are some exceptions in the s.s camp such as the little Pass Labs Aleph 3 (which I've got) that has valve-like virtues, but even this tonally correct sounding amp is 'synergistically assisted' by the Supratek pre's.

BTW, the Supratek power amps are just as good as the preamps. I use a pair of the 18w/ch Single Ended Triode 'Merlot' monoblocs using the very linear Russian 6C33C-B output valves, and the amp is excellent! being very clean, ethereal and correct sounding. You have to match them with efficient spkrs though to get the best out of the 18w that they produce, but then again the same can be said of the Lamm ML2 and Audionote Ongaku, which are also 'ultimate' low powered SET amps. If you need more power and have the requisite $$$$$, then the 100w/ch Supratek Burgundy sounds fantastic too...

Regards,

Steve M.

PS: In case you are wondering, I have in the past gone direct from the cdp to amp direct via the cdp's digital volume. And, I have used the McCormack - Mod Squad Deluxe passive preamp with silver wire and Penny & Giles attenuator; an Audio Synthesis stepped attenuator and other passive attenuators and NONE are as lively or real sounding as a good valve preamp like the Supratek.

The Supratek is a no brainer, unless you are spending big bucks, $8000USD or more...even then I don't know if the alternatives are better ??

We need to go back to Tubegroover's comments of one month ago, with which I strongly agree...

From Tubegroover:

"I have been withholding this but I think it just needs to be said so no one will have any misunderstanding or apprehension, don't think about it if you are, just do it. If you have a budget that permits it, you can't make a wrong decision with the Supratek. It is impossible unless you are prepared to spend considerably more money. Even so, the decision will still be valid because it can be resold without losing anything or very little and if you don't go ahead with it you will most likely never have the opportunity to hear if you made the right choice or not and the curiosity will never subside until you forget but after so many posts on this thread and still counting, the death of curiosity may prove quite slow.

My reason for the above comment is because I have communicated with a few that are on the fence and I have been too conciliatory to their concerns, the wait and the service. This is the real deal it can't be overstated. It is a $7K or better pre for $2.5K, it really is. I waited 5 months longer than I should have. If only I had believed what I read from the beginning. Read Mark Bucksath review on the Supratek website, and read it very carefully...

http://www.supratek.biz/review.htm

If you can connect to the contents of his most wonderful descriptives of this product, you will hear the Syrah. Keep in mind this recommendation is based on the extreme value of what you will hear, not in the context of the "best" that may be available. If you are prepared to pay considerably more, you will certainly have more choices. I have NO doubt this is the best pre-amp value at this price point on the planet and it is very easy to say it."

Tubegroover: 28/07/03

Regards,

Steve M.

Thanks for the positive comments Fiddler & Jazzdude! And Jazzdude, I stand corrected about the gain issue, you are quite right, the new Cortese/Grange circuit maintains that high gain aliveness with apparently little noise.

Brian, I can appreciate that you have recently bought a Cortese preamp and feel that you have missed out on the new circuit, but as you can see from Mick's generous offer of an upgrade, the solution to your problem was already there, all you had to do was call Mick. I think Mick's honesty, direct approach and accessibility by his clients is sometimes to his detriment! I mean, if you bought an X-Series Pass Labs amp today, and found out tomorrow that a 'new' Z-Series has been released, would you go looking all over the planet for Nelson Pass to tell him what you thought of him ?? I doubt it ... so why do it to Mick, at least he's had the decency to discuss this matter openly.

I also stand by my comments about gain not being an issue on the Cortese depending on the system you are using. If I can explain, I have the luxury of being able to put together several combinations of cdp/amps/pre's/speakers in my home, depending on my mood and preference at the time. For example, if I line up the Cortese with the low sensitivity Merlot monoblocs or the Pass Labs Aleph 3 and a Proac Response 2.5 loudspeaker (87dB efficiency), then the sound is very sweet with absolutely no issues of high gain or noise. Alternatively, if I throw in a Krell KSA-100 (loud and highly sensitive) together with my W.A.R Audio Reference Two loudspeakers using Raven Ribbons(95dB)/Accuton Ceramic mids/Cabasse 21NDC bass drivers, then some background hiss can be heard.

Hence, my comment that if your system is not highly sensitive, then the gain of the Cortese is not an issue.

Please note also that my reference to Mick as the 'master' is just a figure of speech and is not meant to be sub-servient. You must admit though, that he is the creator (maybe I should use this term ? but it's too pretentious) of the beautiful pre-amps that we all love, so a little bit of respect wouldn't go astray.

Brian, I have read all of your posts and you come across as a very reasonable and knowledgeable person and your enthusiasm for Supratek is reknowned. Please don't flame me further on any of my comments, they are really just that - my opinions, and not worth getting hot-n-botherd about.

'Creativity' and 'the zeal to improve' are necessary ingredients for making lovely music out of a bunch of valves; transformers; capacitors and resistors! I for one, am glad that Mick Maloney has a furtive mind and continues on the quest to get better and better with his Supratek products - we're all the winners in the end ...

Regards,

Steve M.

Hi Brian...no need to apologise, I didn't take any real offence to what you said ( "like water off a duck's back" as we Aussies like to say).

I am not the PR arm of Supratek, but I do know Mick well and underneath it all he's always well meaning. I wouldn't read too much into his use of the words 'bad news'. Again, it's just a figure of speech and that's how the man expresses himself, it's his way of bringing a bit of comaraderie into the conversation and I don't think he saw any harm in it.

As to whether what he's saying and what I'm saying is the correct picture, I think it's a bit of both, but you have to read and interpret more what he's said than what I've said, as it's only my angle on it. If I were you, don't play a word game on the net - it'll get too complicated, just talk to him about the whole thing and he will explain it better than I can.

My point with the whole issue is that the Supratek pre's are so far ahead of most - that you've already got something very special on your hands, so be happy! I'm sure even Michaelangelo improved on his paintings as time went on, so why can't Mick with the Cortese/Grange.

Regards,

Steve M.

Hi Jazzdude,

Having gone from a Cortese to a Cabernet myself, I have to say that you will not regret the decison to go up to a Cabernet!! Both are excellent, but the Cab just has a more hear-through character, it's a very detailed and addictive preamp...

Regards,

Steve M.

Jazzdude: I currently use the Cabernet - you will NOT be disappointed when you get yours! Note however, that all of Mick's preamps are very good and it is only a matter of degree as to improvements between the Syrah-Cortese-Cabernet.

Having said this, the Cabernet/Grange have an edge in having a 'hear through' character that is better than the rest. The sound of the directly heated triode (DHT) 101D tube in the Cabernet/Grange is unique and different from the 6SN7 used in the Syrah/Cortese. The 101D has a pristine clean signature coupled with a punchy accurate bass...no coloration, no smearing to the overall soundstage with all of the players standing clear of each other, each doing their own thing on stage within their own defined space. I am finding that the sound of 101D in the Cabernet matches very well the sound of the 6C33-CB power tubes in the Supratek Merlot monobloc amplifiers that I use, both having that supremely clean and effortless presentation.

Cello: the Cortese is a magnificent preamp and it is not surprising that you are happy with it. It has a wonderful tonality that just makes the music sound 'beautiful and alive'. Keep in mind that that even a stock Cortese is better than most preamps out there so while it is tempting to go for the upgrade you still have one of the best even in it's current state! Also, is the rest of your system good enough to show the improvements? In general, I find that only a good Electrostatic Loudspeaker will show you all the detail, nuance and finesse that the Syrah/Cortese/Cabernet preamps possess compared to other mediocre preamplifiers.

Regards,

Steve M.

Cello...on the contrary I am a vinyl fan and use a Roksan Xerxes turntable with Koetsu Rosewood cartridge. If you have seen my initial post of 20/07/03 I live in Western Australia and I am a friend of Mick Maloney and have a lot of his wonderful creations - one of which is a prototype Phono Preamp (the type of thing that goes into a Cortese or Grange). This little phono device looks like 'Frankenstein' (being a prototype) but it's sonic virtues are beyond reproach! Like all of Mick's creations it has liquidity and detail in spades, the description of the phono section by the reviewer Mark Bucksath of Ultimate Audio on Mick's website is pretty spot on.

Asa: some good advice given there to Cello and others. I am also a big fan of Nelson Pass's little Aleph 3 power amp(I own one). This amp is my solid state reference (over Krells and Naim amps that I have owned), it just has that certain magic that weaves it's way into the music, revealing all the nuances, inflections and little things in the performance and on the recording.

Tom: I know it goes against the grain and practical thinking, and it's quite apparent that you have good knowledge and experience with all things Hi-Fi, but surely after reading the 700 or so posts on this thread ( from mostly satisfied Supratek users) the Syrah/Cortese/Grange preamps are really 'no brainers' and can be purchased with little risk. There is NO WAY highly experienced listeners like myself (doing the audio thing for 25 years) or the likes of Bryan White/ASA/Jazzdude/Linkster/Waltersalas/Ecclectique/Slowhand/Tubegroover etc...would ever endorse a product like Supratek if we did not like it and think that it was something very special.

Regards,

Steve M.

Hi all, I hate to de-bunk this tweak fest you are having, but it's my humble opinion that significant equipment changes or even just trying out alternative audio technology yields much greater improvements than poking around in the dark with tweaks!

As a humourous but true example, I once tried Yamamura Millenium 6000 power cable (@ $400USA) on my Bel Canto DAC-1 and convinced myself over an evening of listening that it was the best thing since sliced bread. Only to wake up the next morning and upon trying my standard power cord, finding that the sound had not changed much at all??

You see, my standard cable for the DAC-1 is a thin bit of zip cord with an in-line switch taken from the rear end of a child's Teddy Bear night lamp (the DAC-1 does not have on ON-OFF switch and this cable allows me to switch it off at will). All I can say is that it must have been a magic Teddy because the cable coming out of it's arse/ass did wonders for my system and more than kept up with the fancy Yamamura power cable!

Tom & others, my advice is:

1. Get a Supratek preamp, they are relatively cheap and get you connected to the music better than any tweak you may have tried.

2. Try Electrostatic loudspeakers like the Quad ESL-57/63 or for that matter ribbons like Apogee Stages or the like. Planar/dipole sound can be the most realistic experience.

3. Try Horn loudspeakers, they can be revelatory.

4. If you must have cone speakers, try and get one with the most expensive drivers and most inert box. Drivers such as Raven Ribbon tweeters; Accuton Ceramics; Cabasse honeycomb foam (21NDC); Eton; Beryllium drivers are excellent and more truthful than all others.

5. Everyone should have a S.E.T 300B/2A3 valve experience at least once in their lives!

6. Bel Canto EVO digital amplifiers and 24bit/96/192kHz DACs are wonderful devices - period!

7. Get at least a Koetsu Rosewood cartridge (or better), a good cartridge makes a greater improvement to any turntable than any arm or deck upgrade/tweak you might make.

In my experience, all of the above changes in equipment yield significantly superior results than tweaky things.

For what it's worth ...

Regards,

Steve M.

PS: Before you flame me, I'm not a total heretic and do use Solid Tech supports under my cdp and other 'feel good' products in my system like the rest of you.

Nice posts guys...you *are* a civilised lot on this thread!
Having played devil's advocate and illicited some good responses, I would agree that some final tweaks to an already good system is icing on the cake and therefore can be beneficial.

Cello: your comments are nicely put and I've 'been there and done that' (ie, implementing a lot of tweaks over my time). A lot of you also hit the nail on the head by stating that system synergy is the key to good sound. I guess my simple point is if you feel you are missing something and feel the need to tweak, look first at your major components (such as your loudspeaker) and see if a fundamental change can be made. No amount of tweaking will improve a lack-lustre speaker for example.

Ecclectique: Like you, I have a lot of different equipment at my disposal, I may have left the tweaking urge behind some time ago. I find these days that it is much more challenging (and satisfying) trying to add a Raven ribbon tweeter and requisite crossover to my Proac Response 2.5 loudspeaker etc...etc...than say playing around with tweaks.

In the end, to each his own and we all do in audio what we are able to understand. I don't thinking tweaking is a bad thing and it keeps the fire burning for audiophiles. I guess instead of calling it tweaking we should call it 'fine tuning' to add some credibility to the whole issue.

Regards,

Steve M.

Ecclectique: In reply to your post of 20.01.04, I apologise for not responding earlier but I have been laying wood floors in my home and have had to put the hi-fi thing to one side ...

I can tell by your post that you are a fan of Proac and it's designer Stuart Tyler. Also that you have good ears, because you have pegged the sound of Proac as 'beautiful' (which is precisely as I would describe it). Tyler is a master speaker designer, and having heard the Response 3.0; the 2.5; Studio 200 & 150; and the excellent Proac EBS(with ATC dome midrange), I would say that all of his speakers have a similar sonic signature, that is, they have good bass, musicality in spades and a 'beautifulness' about the sound.

Tyler has a few tricks up his rather long sleeves to achieve this sound. Namely, from what I know ...

- the crossover usually has an in-built 'BBC monitor dip' in the treble and midrange region to give that soft, mellow listenable character. Surprisingly, without too much of a loss of detail. This is different from many of the overtly detailed/lean sounding US audiophile speakers.

- usually Proac speaker boxes 'sing', that is, they are tuned to resonate whereas as other audiophile speakers are inert, heavy and dead sounding.

- he has some tricks (alternative thinking) applied in the crossover design, e.g, in the Response 2.5 the phase of the tweeter is in reverse to the mid/bass driver. This results in the 'beautifulness' that we like.

With respect to my own Proac 2.5, it is a great speaker and IMO it will go down in history as a Classic. However, in comparing it to my Electrostats and other audiophile cone designs I have/had in my collection including three-ways using Raven ribbons/Accuton Ceramics/Seas Magnesium/Beryllium drivers, the 2.5 has an obvious hole in the mid that IMO needs to be resolved (for want of a better word).

This has lead me to marrying a Raven R-1 tweeter to the Proac Response 2.5. It is IMO a marriage made in heaven! All of the great bass, musicality and voicing of the original 2.5 is retained. But the upper mid is much more resolved, and inciciveness, detail, air and transparency in the treble region is greatly improved...almost rivalling the audiophile speakers that I have mentioned! A tiny bit of the Proac magic is lost, but this is more than compensated by the other gains to be had with the Raven modification.

I have to say that after listening to the Raven cloned Proac Response 2.5, the original version with the cheap Scanspeak tweeter is just downright boring!

All of this is particularly relevant if you own a Supratek Syrah/Cortese/Grange preamp, because you cannot appreciate the full potential of these pre's until you have a speaker with the speed and detail of Electrostatics or Raven ribbon tweeters.

Regards,

Steve M.

Well said Grannyring & ASA! Suprateks are very reliable IMO, due to the lack of circuit boards and simple but high quality construction.

I ran a Cortese Preamp for more than 2 years for 4-8 hours a day, seven days a week without a single hiccup other than the odd valve rush noise. For the past 6 months I have used a Supratek Cabernet with the directly heated 101D triode, and it also has run faultlessly.

I have found that the predominant cause of concern with these pre's is noise generated by the valves themselves and picked up by the high-gain circuitry. It is not a problem with the pre itself, but the inconsistency/vaguaries that come with using valves, albeit coupled with the sensitivity of the pre. The newer Supratek models have adjustable or lower sensitivity which has addressed such concerns.

It is also a myth to think that there is such a thing as a completely safe audio component. Even big companies like Audio Research have their problems. I have heard and read plenty of horror stories about their earlier preamps and amps over heating with major repairs required. For example their Reference 600 monobloc amps ($30,000?) have 32 valves stuffed into a metal case mounted on printed circuit boards. This is a disaster waiting to happen! mixing valves & circuit boards in an enclosed cahssis is a big no-no, IMO.

At least with Supratek everything is hard wired, lots of free space within the chassis and all running relatively cool, so it gives peace of mind.

Also, B23 misses the point of the 700 or so posts on this thread - we have all taken the leap to Supratek based on the superb sound! And as ASA has mentioned, it's kind of the end of the road of a long steep (& expensive) learning curve for many of us. If you do not take the advice of someone like Grannyring who prefers the Syrah over $8,000US preamps like the Wavac and Audio Note then nothing will convince you. I know of another who prefers the Syrah to a CAT SL-1 pre he has. Consider also, that Grannyring has an older style Syrah, let alone the fact that the newer model Syrahs/Cortese/Grange take it all a step further.

Regards,

Steve M.

Tubegroover: The Supratek Merlot monoblocs come pretty close to the notion of 'perfection' in a power amp, from what I've heard. So long as you have loudspeakers that can do them justice, i.e, are happy to run on 18watts of Single Ended Triode power.

Regards,

Steve M.

Tubegroover: The Supratek Merlot is no ordinary S.E.T amp. It has all the valve virtues of harmonic sweetness and musicality, but it is also super clean and detailed with the most solid bass I have heard, and for a given volume level, beats a Krell KSA100 that I owned.

Besides Mick's unique circuit topology, the Merlot uses the Russian 6C33-CB output tube which has a crystal clear pristine (cut-glass) character. It is no accident that Lamm Industries and BAT also use this valve in their top-of-the-line power amps.

The Berning would appear to be a ground breaker by all accounts, and I would love to hear it one day. Although, that would be a rare circumctance in my neck of the woods (being Perth - Western Australia).

Regards,

Steve M.

Artar: The Cortese sounds 'beautiful' for want of a better word. It *will* sound romantic if the nature of the recording demands it, and ruthlessly revealing if there is lots of information on the disc.

Midrange purity and correctness is a particular strength of the Cortese. You have to understand that Mick used a pair of stacked Quad ESL-57 electrostaic loudspeakers for a number of years before going to Edgar Horns and now Goodmans Axioms, so you have a person/designer who really appreciates nice midrange and strong dynamics from his speakers (there is no better midrange than that found in the Quad ESL).

The Cortese is 'alive' sounding with excellent 3 Dimensional and spacial presentation - on superb recordings the soundstage is brought right into your living room! I use upsampling 24 bit 96/192 kHz DACs and the full effect of these wonderful DA converters is realised with this preamp.

Regards

Steve M.

Brasso is a bit strong and might smear the chrome finish with prolonged use??

I use Goddards long term silver polishing cloth, gentle enough for expensive jewelery so it should be gentle enough for my black and chrome Cabernet preamp, which incidently, looks like 'audio jewelery' to me !

Regards,

Steve M.

Hi Guys,

Just to change tack on the tube rolling subject which is discussed ad-infinitum on this forum, I'm curious to know what speakers you guys use with your Supratek preamps and amps??

You may recall that I live in Western Australia and have known Mick Maloney of Supratek, since its inception some ten years ago. And, I have heard or owned all the Supratek models from Syrah-to-Cortese-to-Cabernet-to-the Merlot monobloc amps.

You don't know how good Mick's preamps and amps are until you put them through their paces on some hi-rez speakers! I'm talking about things like Quad Electrostatics; Martin Logan's; Proacs; Yamaha NS1000's (with the highly detailed beryllium drivers); the ER Audio ESL-3 (superfast 3.4 micron thin-filmed electrostats see: www.eraudio.com.au ); Jamo Concert 8's with Seas Excel magnesium drivers and silver voice coils; various Accuton ceramic/Raven ribbon speaker arrays; Apogee ribbons and also the Edgar Horns. All of which - I have owned and tried at some stage in my audio quest, with the Supratek products.

When you get speakers of the type mentioned above, you realize how good the Supratek products really are! The fine detail and nuance; inflection and expression of music presented by Mick's creations don't really show through until you get a really GOOD SPEAKER. So my tip to you guys is stop mucking around with tube rolling, be assured you have one of the best preamps on the planet with Supratek - and look to improve other parts of your system (speakers being the most critical component and a good start).

All in my humble opinion of course...

Regards,

Steve M.

Fiddler, I thought it was that ;-) had to ask anyway.

Thanks DWR, I will have to follow up on the Orions one day.

Steve.

BWhite, points taken...I'm just making a generalised statement that speakers have probably the greatest effect on the way sound is reproduced (way above any tube rolling in a preamp). Normal cones-n-domes just don't cut the mustard with the fine detail on offer from Supratek preamps. It's not until you start getting involved with electrostats; Raven ribbons; Beryllium drivers; Accuton ceramics; Fostexes or well sorted horns that you truly start to appreciate the nuances of Mick Maloney's artistry.

I'm still curious to know what speakers you guys are using with your Suprateks ?

Regards,

Steve.

With all due respect, herein lies the problem that I first hinted at. Speakers from Paradigm with polypropylene cones and even the Wilson Benesch with its (slightly fuzzy)Scanspeak carbon cones are not the last word in resolution. The inner beauty and differentiation of low level detail and tonal textures of the Supratek Cortese or Cabernet will not necessarily show through with speakers such as these.

Its not until you enter the realm of electrostats, horns, Raven ribbons and Accutons that you will truly know what your Suprateks are capable of.

Brian, if you are down sizing to the world of Single Point Source drivers, give the eight inch Fostex FE206E a try. Its got an uneven response tilted towards the upper mids, but the overall sound is superb! Its highly efficient at 96dB/w/m, very coherent sounding with pin point sharp imaging and excellent treble response. You will need to build a sub-woofer to match though, to augment bass. The good news is that the Fostex is only $68USD ea. from Madisound, so you've got nothing to lose.

Regards,

Steve.

Brian,

I'm not aware of what it is that has made you lose faith in Supratek, its probably just the fickleness of audiophilia or that you have suffered burn-out who knows? You are quite within you're rights to express these alternative views (as we all are), but you are just plain wrong about the statement that the Suprateks are somehow not hi-end.

IMHO (and with 25yrs experience of playing around with hi-fi), the Supratek Cortese and Cabernet would be placed among the BEST preamps ever created. I mean, you have people on the planet running their $130,000USD Avantegarde horns with the Supratek Cortese and loving it, if this doesn't say something about the high quality of the preamp nothing does!

I have tried passive devices and run directly to the CDP, and have not found these options to be better than my Supratek preamp. The music deadens and becomes lifeless and one dimensional when running passive. The Supratek preamp somehow picks up the signal and brings it alive, all full of clarity, emotion and realness - I can't explain it on any level of electrical theory, IT JUST DOES. There are things hidden in recordings that only the Supartek preamps seem to flesh out, the ambience of the venue, the spacial clues of the performers on a stage, the timbre, texture and long decay of instruments etc.

It's not for want of trying with passives either, as I have used the Mod Squad passive pre; Audio Synthesis Passion attenuator; D.A.C.T attenuator; and Sowter transformer pots. The direct to CDP route to me sounds a bit electronic (digitalised for want of a better word).

My initial comments about speaker quality and the hidden beauty of Supratek preamps was not meant to put anyone off-side. I was merely stating that if you have ultra hi-rez speakers you will truly know what your Suprateks are capable of. Perhaps those of you running electrostats with your Suprateks might want to chime in here...

Regards,

Steve.

Nicely said Brian and I can appreciate where you are coming from. I'm curious though, as to how you are able listen 'direct' from your turntable without any attenuation - this is not a realistic option in the real world (in order to keep domestic harmony)? In this 'direct' situation you are also assuming that your amp is completely uncolored (which it cannot possibly be).

While I can certainly appreciate that removing the preamp removes a whole lot of electronics from the music reproduction chain, for most of us a control centre a la Supratek preamp is still a necessity. I still maintain that as you move towards hi-rez speakers you will hear more of what your Suprateks are doing.

Regards,

Steve.

On Supratek build quality ...depending on which angle you are looking from the Supratek products have fantastic build quality!

If you are after a mass produced product with neat internals; biscuit thin circuit boards; thin copper traces side by side on a PCB to carry the signal(all interfering with each other with their eddy curents); lots of useless control circuitry that gets in the way of the signal; internal parts chosen with a budget in mind - then go and get yourself any mass market Japanese or USA amp and preamp and be happy with it.

If on the other hand you want something which avoids 'sameness' and is meticulously 'handcrafted'; carries the signal on silver coated copper and teflon wires; has NO circuit boards to sully the signal; contains hand picked components chosen for their sonic value; has unique triode circuitry; and an exterior that looks like a work of art - then choose Supratek.

Its to be expected that if an average non-audiophile technician opens up a Supratek and sees the mass of silver wires going everywhere and big bulky (high quality) capacitors, he's going to think it looks hand built, which it unashamedly is! This type of tech wouldn't appreciate the sonic virtues of hardwiring, nor understand how difficult it is to twist each wire to its connection, as opposed to simply spot soldering on a circuit board.

So you see, the issue of build quality is all a matter of perspective. The external beauty of Supratek preamps is reflected on the inside also. The internal circuitry may look a bit unusual, but it is done that way for sonic merits and should be seen as a positive thing, something that is unique and handcrafted ...at least that's the way I see it and all IMHO.

Regards,

Steve M.

PS: I am currently using a Supratek Grange which has selectable 300B, 45 or PX4 output tubes and a highly developed phono stage. I haven't heard everything out there, but I can't imagine it gets much better than this ...

A discussion on digital amps is a little out of place here Vince ...

I own both Bel Canto and ICE module 100w & 500w amps and all are trounced by the Supratek Merlot tube monoblocs that I also have. There is something harmonically and texturally rich in directly heated Single Ended Triode (S.E.T) valve amps that is missing in all digital amps I've heard.

However, all of this is in the context of efficient speakers and I'm sure the H2O amp is very good on your power hungry Apogee Scintillas...

Regards,

Steve.

No worries fellas ...don't get so 'Fired' up about it, otherwise we'll have to pour some H20 on it!

Such are the vaguaries of internet communications that my initial post was not meant to offend the digiamp camp. Afterall, I have eleven of them in my house at the moment so I do quite like them ...just not as much as valves.

Peace ...

Steve.

Re: Supratek KT88 power amp. I have not yet heard this amp yet Slowhand but would think it is very good. Mick seems to speak of it in terms of having the virtues of the his other more expensive power amps - which is saying a lot!

As to pricing for the KT88 amps you will have to wait and see, but about $3000 seems right from what he has said to me. I can't imagine it will be anywhere near the cost of Burgandys, those amps were contained in four chassis's, complex to build and with big expensive Plitron transformers from Canada which explains their price tag.

To those who have waited long for their preamps, we have a saying in Australia (or it could be universal?) 'the squeaky wheel gets oiled', so start squeaking. I have to agree with Slowhand though, the wait is worth it as Supratek preamps sound like no other.

Regards,

Steve.

With microphonics, I find it is dependent on what output tubes are being used. I have a Supratek Grange and it is highly microphonic with EH 300B's, but there is zero microphonics when Raytheon 45 tubes are used.

I don't get too hung up about microphonics, sure it makes a sound when you rap the chassis, but I don't think it affects the sound when your are in the listening seat.

Mustang: I have a set of Supratek Merlot monobloc power amps. They are superb world class amplifiers, very refined and are tonally almost perfect with strong tight bass, so long as you have sensitive speakers to do them justice.

Regards,

Steve.

On the subject of tube rolling, this was in my first post on Audiogon in 2003 ...

" As a final point, I have noticed that there is a lot of discussion about the merits of tube rolling with the 6SN7 output valve in the Cortese and Syrah. Personally, I think that Mick has carefully chosen the stock 6N8P (a 6SN7 equivalent) based on its sonic merits and there is no real need to replace the valve with another. I have in my collection the 6N8P and various 6SN7's including the black Ken Rads; black Brimars with red bases; Toshiba; Raytheons; Mullards and the Sylvania VT231. If I had to chose a favourite it would be the Sylvania VT231 because I find it the most transparent and the highs are sweetest(it can sometimes be a bit be microphonic though). I feel the Cortese and Syrahs are so inherently musical, that it does not make a huge difference swapping valves so long as the valve is nice and fresh, and not noisy to begin with. My advice on this is don't get anal about it, just enjoy the music! "

Having personally heard and seen seen Mick Maloney develop Supratek products since its inception around 1996, I know the guy to be meticulous in tuning each preamp on an oscilloscope to get them to sound the best before they are delivered to the customer. While this doesn't rule out tube swapping (it can be interesting and good fun) it probably does mean the preamps are optimally tuned when they leave the factory, so best to leave well enough alone.

Regards,

Steve M.
Western Australia

kg: I haven't heard the double 6SN7 circuit, but I just got my gold Grange back from Mick with an upgrade of TJ-300B meshplates driven by EH-6SN7's ...all I can say is WOW what a difference!! Extra detail, speed, separation, control in the bass (less bloom), and heaps more clarity and treble extensiion. Plus it retains the 300B midrange magic.

In terms of the sonic differences between the dht 101 and double 6SN7 - you need to trust Mick on this one. If he says the double 6SN7's sounds better then they probably do, the guy is rarely ever wrong on such matters. However, I agree with you that the bulb shaped 101 is a very sexy looking tube!

I've owned the dht TJ-101 Cabernet pre and it did sound excellent. The 101 has a distinct sound, a very pristine presentation with a hear-through character and if you are a detail freak, it will suit you well. The 6SN7 is an overall competent tube that does everything well and is very sweet sounding.

Hope this helps ...

Regards,

Steve from
Western Australia

Not so Kenji! I would argue that every Supratek preamp is handmade and 'special' , that the directly heated triode (DHT) models like the Cabernet have their own sound and are unique products that will stand the test of time and may actually become collectable ...plus that bulb shaped TJ-101D is hell sexy and a selling point!!

Regards,

Slowhand: No, I have not heard the KT88 amps yet and I'm not sure of their release date, but it should be soon as KG says ??

Kenji: that sounds like unacceptably high levels of microphonics in your Cabernet. Its usually tube related. My Grange has a small amount of microphonics with EH-300B tubes and absolutely NONE with the TJ-300B or 45 tubes.

BTW, the meshplate TJ-300B is magnificent sounding! Its not even close, it makes the others sound crude in comparison.

Regards,

Steve.

Supratek Grange Based System - My Pictures ...in case any of you might be interested, I spent some time uploading pictures and reviews of my audio system on the Audiogon Systems Ever Evolving pages. Go to:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182

Hope you enjoy looking at it...

Regards,

Steve.

Hi Colin: The Grange is fantastic ...the LAST preamp you will ever aspire to, it doesn't get any better!

Regards,

Steve M.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&read&3&4&

Mercedes: I have a Grange and have tried EH-300B; RCA 45; and TJ-300B meshplates. A friend has a Cabernet and has tried the PX4's. We both agree that the TJ-300B sounds best by a big margin! The most significant lift with the TJ is the treble response which becomes sugary sweet and extended. The TJ also sounds much more refined than the EH tube which sounds crude in comparison.

Mick has some Western Electric 300B's, so you should ask him via email if it is significantly better than the TJ meshplates ...

Regards,

Steve M.

Mahalo: The Supratek preamps sound beautiful with Classical music. Being a tube pre, the harmonic structure and emotion of soaring violins; the drama of orchestral crescendos and the sense of the Hall or venue is portrayed with real depth and dimension. IME, tubes do this much better than solid state, which sound flatter and less 3-dimensional.

Regards,

Steve.

Cello: Sounds like a tube on its way out ??

With all due respect, you have a thoroughbred race horse (in the Grange) that you are trying to fix. Consult the master Mick Maloney first before you do anything else, or you may regret further unforeseen consequences ...

Regards,

Steve.

Richmon: With your concerns about heat, just stick a 4"x4" square double layer of aluminium tinfoil (shiney side out) under the shelf above your power supply tube, it should act as a heatshield. Since you have an open sided shelf, heat build up shouldn't be a problem.

Slowhand: I agree, the Supratek phono sections are a real gem! My turntable with Koetsu Rosewood cartridge murders my digital front-end consisting of Sony XA-7ES + Bel Canto DAC-2. Digital sound is nice when listened to in isolation, but just doesn't stand up to an A-B comparison against analogue...

Regards,

Steve M.

Agreed Slowhand, Mick is a vinyl junkie and his phonos are hard to beat at ANY price let alone $400!

Regards,

Steve.

That second last paragraph on the Grange sounds totally fictitious to me and possibly contrived rubbish from another jealous manufacturer!

Firstly, why would anyone just abandon a new $9,000 Rolls Royce of a preamplifier (unless you're a millionaire)? And secondly, from my experience Mick Maloney's product back-up is second-to-none. He places customer satisfaction at the top of his list of priorities and generally drops everything to look after customers. This is backed up by dozens of supportive comments on this forum.

Certainly, my own Grange has been operating faultlessly for the last two years and sounds absolutely wonderful ...

Regards,

Arkio: That's a good account of things, IMO I think Mick's sound is very sorted out and his circuits so well evolved that these 'add-ons' make little difference. Other than a need to control microphonics sometimes, which IME is usually tube related anyway, there's not much need to fiddle with Supratek products.

That said, I use Solid Tech 'Feet of Silence' ($399) under my Grange, turntable and cdp, and have Yamamura 6000 power cords ($800) on the preamp and Bel Canto DAC-2. My whole system is powered with the Eichmann Power Cable Pod and Power Strip ($570). I'm not sure these tweaky things do much really, but I got them for peanuts and have them in place for peace-of-mind ??

Regards,

Steve.

Maril ...just as a matter of interest, have you discussed your concerns with Mick Maloney? It seems strange that any Supratek piece should exhibit glare, it is not in the mien of valve gear to sound glarey. Quite the opposite really, valves are traditionally chosen for their smooth and musical presentation and it is usually the case for solid state equipment that glare needs to be controlled.

I know Mick Maloney personally and have owned five of his preamps over the last ten years - none have ever exhibited any glare (and my system is razor sharp! with Raven ribbons etc.). Mick is an analogue guy (loves vinyl and truthful music), his design philosophy majors on musicality above all else. I think he would be shocked to learn that someone thinks that one of his products sounds glarey.

In one of the earlier posts Opus88 describes the sound of horns as being perhaps bombastic or with emphasised upper mids on his Cortese. I would have thought this is how horns are *supposed* to sound, certainly when you are in front of live performance the trumpets and horns blare and blat at you with uncanny acoustic power! they do not sit in the backround ...

Is it feasible that you are actually hearing for the first time how these instruments *should* sound with all the attack and transients of the instruments intact, and perhaps you are being unnerved by the experience? Listening to Supratek gear may require a paradigm shift in both thinking and hearing??

Anyway, I'm just trying to be constructive and would suggest you send an email to Mick about all of this. The guy is very good to deal with and is a master of sonic tailoring, he can get your preamps to sound anyway you might like it ...

Regards,

Steve M.

Trust me, Mick *can* make a preamp sound anyway he likes( the man is a whiz and I've seen and heard it first hand), but I suppose its not possible to suggest these things because of the tyranny of distance. Be forwarned, the Cortese is at another level and will peel away even more layers to reveal and flesh out the music to the nth degree, I hope your speakers are up to it ...

Regards,

Steve.

Well said Opus88, a good description of the varying nature of recorded music vs. live performances. Sometimes I just can't understand what's going on in my system, it can be spot on one minute and then you fiddle with something and that illusive 'real' quality is gone - best not to fiddle when you feel the magic is in place!

My current pet annoyance is that no matter what I do, my humble $100 Marantz analogue FM tuner sounds nicer (more natural to my ears) than my $5,000 CD replay system with $2,000 worth of fancy cables attached to it. This shouldn't be the case when most audiophiles consider tuners (with their limited bandwidth) to be a secondary source?

With home audio its best to savour the good moments while they last and try to ignore irksome (perceived) problems ...hard to do I know, because of our pedantic male driven audiophile tendancies. Other than that, perhaps we just need to go see more live performances to remain grounded.

Regards,

Steve.

Tvad: I know the feeling with tape recorders, they're an excellent medium. I use to transfer my CDs onto Nakamichi tape decks or a nice Pioneer RT-909 reel-to-reel (Mick's got that machine now) and the results were superb! Kind of like the music got 'analogued' along the way...all for the better. I think the same thing is happening with FM's treatment of CD sound, that's why it sounds nicer.

There's no doubting CD's convenience and generally competent sound, so that's the medium for most of us I suppose.

Opus88: Isn't it ironic that we are being sold more and more technology these days, on the basis of number crunching creates better sound(all at high cost), but in all honesty the truth and beauty of music seems to be locked up in the old mediums like the ancient thermionic bottles we all like (a la tube devices like Supratek); analogue tape or vinyl & to a lesser extent FM transmission; good ol' Class A amplification is still hard to beat and electrostatic loudspeakers are still a reference point. Even some of the old point source loudspeakers like the Goodmans Axiom 80 and Coral Beta 10 (now some 30yrs old) are still unsurpassed.

When you've been doing hi-fi for a few decades, it seems to be a common thing amongst older audiophiles that life goes full circle. Some of the good things you heard are still good. I've tried a lot good gear over the years from valves to digital amps, from Accutons to ribbons etc. and the older stuff still competes (and exceeds) in a lot of areas. Its not nostalgia or your imagination either - it just is.

The high cost of Hi-Fi is hard to justify. Non-audiophiles must think we are MAD spending the dollars we do on equipment, for little improvement. I almost puke(Aussie slang for vomit) when I pick up a copy of Hi-Fi+ magazine these days. Don't get me wrong, this is a good magazine displaying dream-like thoroughbred equipment, but come on, you've gotta be kidding! There are small amplifiers with a toroidal transformer and a few circuit boards in that magazine that cost as much as my new Subaru Outback H6 SUV (bristling with the latest technology and a 180kW hi-tech motor), there's just no comparison for value, and they have the cheek to call the amplifier 'a bargain' at $50,000!

Anyway, time for me to go back to listening to some cool music with the mantra ...'I am happy with what I've got' ...'I am happy with what I've got' ...

Cheers,

Steve.

Slowhand: I have'nt tube-rolled for five years! And, I've got many nice 6SN7's including Mullards; Brimars; Sylvanias; Toshiba and KenRads ...waste of time, Micks preamps are BEST as delivered with fresh tubes and as adjusted by him. Tube rolling is the proverbial dog-chasing-tail ...all IMHO.

Regards,

Steve M.