BWhite,
Have you had a chance of testing the home-theatre pass through yet ?
I ordered a Sauvignon (Cortese line stage version) from Mick about 3 months ago, but did not request any modifications for fear of something going wrong.
Mick said that he will probably start Sauvignon in around a month or two. Therefore, I'm wondering whether It's a good idea to request the home-theatre pass through before he actually commences work on the pre-amp.
Also, does anyone who owns a Supratek, tried the unit with the Audio Aero Capitole MK II 24/192 CD Player ?
My System is currently made up of the following:
1. Audio Aero Capitole MK II CD Player
2. Krell KSA 250 Power Amp
3. Osborn Epitome Grand Reference MK V speakers with Bass Units.
At the moment the Audio Aero is running direct into the power amp and actually sounds superior to when a Krell KRC-3 pre-amp was used in the equation.
Furthermore, does anyone know of any good tube suppliers in Australia, preferably Sydney.
Finally, because the Supratek does not fit onto a standard hi-fi rack, I'd be interested in knowing what improvisations people are using to accomodate the unit.
Regards,
TJackson |
Noble, if the Syrah was close to the First Sound with only Ken Rads and Tung Sols, then you didn't hear 50% of what the Syrah is capable of producing. Rolling 6SN7's made the least difference in my Supratek.
A change in the rectifier to a NOS Mullard 5AR4 (or a Bendix 6106 ?) and WE 350B's as regulators and I suspect the Syrah would have been considerably ahead of the First Sound.
However, I am sure if you rolled NOS tubes in the First Sound it would also be an improvement, as well. Both are excellent preamps and I don't think you could go wrong with either one. I suppose it is simply a matter of which flavor one prefers. |
The new Supratek Zazen, phono only Supratek? I just got a brief mention of this from Mick. Does anyone else have details on this? I'm sure TWL is salivating right now. :) |
Supratek experts, what is minimum recommended input impedance of SS power amp which would be good match with SARAH ? |
A lot of responses have talked about microphonics associated with tubes.(A very real and nagging problem) Years ago I designed a product which solves this knotty problem, and it is really magical, and anyone who is handy can build it. It is nasty to do and takes a wierd combination of products, but works better than anything I have ever seen, including several hundred dollar items. I have used it with preamps, cd players, amps, all with great success. It is not snake oil just good common sense. I am happy to share the method of build, and ingredients necessary to build it, with anyone who wants to at no charge or gain to me. I AM NOT SELLING ANYTTHING HERE, Just trying to help eliminate a problem. email me at
lrsky@bellsouth.net. and I will share the build technique.
Happy listening. |
I have gotten several emails from people, regarding this microphonic damping device, and rather than try to answer them all individually, David, the first to inquire, asked me to simply send out the copy of what I sent him. This is a little disjointed, but if you have any questions let me know. Here it is:
David,
Years ago I build a product, called "The Platform".
It is messy and gross but it works better than anything I have ever used for vibrational isolation for preamps, turntables amps etc. My Gryphon is sitting on it now, and even the hardest core, I don't hear the difference people are shocked. Here is how to make it.
You need really solid hardwood for the outer frame. Take 3/4" by 1.5" hardwood and make a rectangular frame of 19x16". Buy some of the fishing worms (several bags) and 8# lead shot. Buy two pieces of thin wood, like an 1/8th inch plywood. Then buy four threaded sleaves and four Teflon screws. Drill the outer frame to allow for the sleeves, (the kind with teeth in the bottom, so they will grip) Do not breath these fumes as they are probably toxic. Melt the fishing worms into a boiling liquid, (just break down the solid mass really), and mix in the lead shot. The outer frame is made this way, finger join it if you can, then put the rather thin wood on the bottom stapling and gluing it so that it will contain the mass. Then pour this goop into the outer frame, obviously with the bottom attached. Then cut the top piece, so that it does not touch the outer frame. Leave about a 1/8 inch all around. (IT must not touch) Then after it cools, put the Teflon feet into the outer frame. It will be normal for the bottom to sag some because this will weigh about 100# (90# was average since you are using about 50# of shot) At the end of this process, you will have a device that will set on top of a mass, that contains lead shielding at the bottom, and is resting on four Teflon feet, that are what did I say 1/8 " in diameter. After it cools David, if you hit it, it resonates at less than probably 10 cycles.
I am telling you as an audio nut, that this sound goofy, but nothing I have ever heard, does what this does. My Gryphon sounds completely smooth and more open at the same time, better bass extension. Every improvement you can imagine, because the energy, microphonic, and RF are shunted into this piece, and because of its considerable mass, it seems to go away. What makes this really cool, is that the Gryphon already employs isolation techniques.
Did I mention that the platform will set about 1/4" from touching, even at the bowed center of it? Wow, I just realized that I had never committed this to paper before (or cyperpaper). All this will cost less than maybe 100 bucks and you will think you spent 5K upgrading your system. It can be replicated and used under cd players also.
Also, there is a less unwieldy 30# unit that we started with, but the return is exponentially better on this heavier one. If you have any questions email me, or even call me, at 502 671 7870. Maybe we can start a mfg company. Good luck, and good listening. Larry Ps This damn thing is dangerous because the mass is so dense. Be careful please and do not attempt to lift it by yourself.(Also, I forgot to, duh tell you to counter sink the Teflon screws. |
Hmmmmmmmm........Zazen.........Hmmmmmmmmm. |
I own a large and small platform of the exact type Larry speaks about. And yes they did make a difference. These are dampening devices by nature and are not conducive to the accurate portrayal of the dynamic structure of music. Sistrum replaced all the high mass leaden dampening devices in my system and and brought back the live dynamics and staging the performance actually contains. Tom |
Hmmmmm....zazen...hmmmmm, I get it. Laugh. I told you it sounds funny. But if you know just a little, not even a lot, about engineering, you have a basic understanding that the lead can act as a rejection from field effects, and the Fishing worms, (lets make that sound less funny by calling it what it is, a sorbothane type, not exactly, but similar plastic) absorbs energy. We all know that this is used in the heels of some running shoes. So laugh, its ok, don't do it. Those who do will get a great return for the amount of the investment. No different than putting the crossover outside the speaker, or the power supply outside of the pre amp. It may sound goofy since I didn't bother to give the ingredients some secretly coded names, but if you look at the real why's there are fundamentally sound reasons.
One speaker manufacturer who you all know, but I won't mention, after witnessing this change, asked me if he could have my permission to use this basic concept for vibrational isolation, and rf rejection, etc, inside his speaker by putting the crossover into/on such a device. So, if you want to help eliminate microphonics and, help reject some rf, do it. WARNING Do not inhale the fumes, and do not touch the lead while making this.Lead never leaves your body, which is why we don't use lead paint anymore, just fair warning.
Anyone with serious inquiries can email me directly. I only posted this because it works and several people inquired.
Good listening,
Larry |
Actually my comments were meant to convey that I am interested in hearing more about the Zazen phono preamp that Bwhite mentioned. Getting my motor running.
They had nothing to do with thoughts of hum or vibration. |
These are not "just damping devices", as stated by the audiotweak. They also help ameliorate field energy, a real issue in almost all systems, with some being more sensitive to this than others. As someone pointed out Mick's pre is made in the Outback 'down unda', in an area with much less rf saturation than most of all the US cities. I would think it wise to let each listener make his or her own decision.
Also, as an observation on the comments of theaudiotweak, nothing that I have ever heard sounds like real music dynamically or otherwise, because of the enormous problems in the recording process and the limitations of playback capabilities in all gear, from speakers to amps, and throughout the entire chain. Also, I would personally like to hear any system anyhere that offers "all the dynamics contained in live music", as stated by Theaudiotweak, but no such thing exists at this point in our technology.
That aside, if the idea of cleaning up your system from these field effects and microphonics, appeals to you, and don't mind trying some fun project, and you need help building it, you can email me.
|
Dampening Larry is not a good thing but a bad thing! Dampening is but a tourniquet only there to impede the natural flow. The natural flow may be from a good design or a poor design but impede the dampening does. Let us hear from the outset the good and the bad, unimpeded from all the sluuuuuring of lead and slow blurrrr and dulling effects of rubber and their sister products! If a cello with its attached end pin were to be placed upon a leaden rubber base and the cello strings were plucked would you not dampen and alter the natural dynamics of this beautiful instrument? There are much better materials for EMI and RFI shielding and efficient resonant energy transfer than that slow sleepy leaden train. Tom |
The basic idea here is to rid a given product such as Mick's preamp from "ringing" due to microphonics, or a cd player from going into read error mode.
How exactly can a product such as this, designed for this purpose, limit the amplifiers innate current capabilities? It can't! That is simply impossible.
"Not conducive to the dynamic...structure"...audiotweak, completely misunderstands, the laws of physics here. A product that damps out microphonic energy and shunts rf, and stray energy fields, can in no way, actually limit the desired and stated, accurate output of the amplifier. The current capablility, stability of the amp, how it handles back emf from the speaker all play into that, but a device such as this would not, could not, in any way, limit the dynamic output of any amp, and therefore the "dynamic structure" of any music. This can only rid the product of unwanted vibrations which can in fact, negatively effect its intended output.
As I stated, Gryphon, a highly respected manufacturer, conrad johnson, and most great engineers try to achieve this interally. They recognize this problem and try to 'engineer' these dreaded issues out of their products. None of their solutions, "floating the chasis" in the instance of conrad, limit dynamic output, and neither does this.
So Mick/Supratek fans can improve the sound of their favorite preamp, eliminating the negatives by using such a device, and it is a relatively inexpensive thing to build.
Good listening,
Larry R. Staples |
I got a platform from Larry 15 years ago. Countless components have come and gone in that time but I won't let go of my platform. Every year or so I decide I don't really need this thing and take it out from under my cd transport. When I do, the images shrink. The music is not as open or dynamic. Needless to szay it goes right back in the system. I think it sounds more musical and is better in every way. Unfortunately I only have one so I can't multiply the benefits by using one on the amp or pre-amp. You don't need to be an audio pig to hear the huge difference this thing makes. I'm not at all technical so I can't really speak to how or why it works but it does. If Larry ever finds a couple in his basement, I'd buy the damn things right now!! |
I know of one you can come and get..Tom |
Tom - I certainly understand where you are coming from so far as deadening the sound of a musical instrument is concerned but a pre-amp or tt or amplifier isn't a musical instrument but a component to transfer the signal unadulterated. How can something that minimizes or removes vibrations affect the dynamics of the signal? I would think that a "livelier" foundation might exaggerate dynamics yet also possibly add smearing. Why is damping unwanted vibrations from outside influences a bad thing? |
Amen Tubegroover. You get it Audiotweak does not. The laws of physics simply deny his answer, and are not in dispute.
Of couse these are replicating divices, not the actual intruments, who, as a thinking person could confuse the two?
Output should equal input. Speakers, being an electro/mechanical device, have problems with this, and cabinets are designed to "dampen out" their excesses, the same way the Platform dampens out excess brought in through the room interaction.
Tom can easily recoup his loss by selling his to 84. He is so unhappy with them the price has to be good for the buyer.
My guess is that he won't sell.
Good listening,
Larry |
Dampening is a storage device with leaks. Try 21st century implemetation of 17th century laws of physics. The science of resonant energy transfer is what works. Wake up and take a new listen. 84 Joe if your nearby I can arrange for you to listen. This thread has been altered and I may be one of the culprits. Tom |
Well, I was only trying to pass on the design of a product device which solves the basic problems that most of the thread, Supratek owners spoke of, not simply disagree with someone else. This is a device which is offered free, just for the cost of goods necessary, with no gain to me. Anyone who wants to try it please do so. Or if you don't, you can pass. I try not to follow Audiogon members around and dispute them just for the sake of controversy, looking foolish, making incorrect statements along the way. The Audiotweak still has not answered Tubegroovers questions regarding his incorrect comparison of audio gear and its dynamic output, versus the dynamic output of original instruments,(apparently tied to a lead device) or my question as to how the output dynamic output of an amp can be changed (lessened according to him through the elimination, or I should say amelioration) of microphonics and rf. I am sure we would all like to hear about that. 21st Century application of physics, and all the wonderful scientific discoveries since Newtonian Physics, can't make those nonsensical statements make sense.
With our current technologies, Mick's preamp still suffers from microphonic problems, I only offered one potentially decent solution, for anyone who choses to try. And the private response has been overwhelming.
Good listening for all those who appreciate my effort to make the Supratek sound better.
Larry R. Staples |
Good listening for all of those who appreciate my efforts and many others on Audiogon to make the Supratek and for that matter all audio reprodution devices sound better. I am not the only one out here who is a proponenent of the attributes of resonant energy transfer delivered by Sistrum products. Remove your pieces from the dead lead and rubber. Direct couple so you can hear the music. There will be no argument Larry when you try the denial in your own system but do so before you sell off the parts you know. Tom |
I've been following the latest posts to this thread with great interest. It seems like Lrsky has come up with a neat way to dampen a component however... I think the microphonics issues with some Supratek's would not be solved by a platform. Perhaps I should explain.
First of all, most stock Supratek's are decoupled from the surface they rest on because Mick uses rather soft feet. This eliminates the likelihood that vibration energy would/could be transferred away from the chassis.
The chassis on the Supratek Chardonnay's / Syrah's is rather light. Inside the chassis is a lot of VERY STIFF silver wire which tends to vibrate when the chassis is tapped.
That, paired with the fact that most Supratek users have installed OLD NOS tubes in a preamp - is the real cause of the problem. Furthermore, preamps typically require higher grade tubes and I bet that many in use are simply not good enough or not at the quality level they should be. MAYBE 1 NOS tube in 10 is remotely "preamp grade" I've found.
Anyhow.. the tubes are the transducer for the vibration running through the chassis and the worse the tubes, the worse the microphonics.
I've had the best success with my Supratek(s) by removing the feet altogether and placing them on a heavy wooden surface. Especially the Power Supply! Nice improvement!
The Dampening of the chassis which was done by my technician actually helped the microphonic problem by preventing the transmission of the vibration within the unit itself. I doubt a platform under a decoupled (rubber foot) Supratek would have similar results. |
It has been my experience that when I have removed the rubber feet from a chassis and placed the component directly on a Sistrum platform there was an immediate and noticeable improvement of sound. Rubber and other dampeners I feel impede the exodus of resonant energy away from what we all wish to preserve and enhance..Tom |
BWhite,
Your last comments about removing the feet is very telling.
The platform works even with the Gryphon, which has massive sorbothane type feet in the front, and a tip toe type rear foot. This, as well as comments made in email conversations with Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon, has made it clear that he takes vibrational isolation seriously.
The platform is curious in that it shunts the energy within a given product into suspended mass of about (and I forget the exact weight)80#. When you mentioned that you removed the feet and added mass this tells me that the suspended mass of the platform would probably work just as it does on all pieces like this.
Conrad Johnson, suspends their circuit board inside of their higher end preamps, floating them, so that they are not coupled to the outer shell of the preamp. The platform helps this preamp tremendously, even though they do this.
It may be worth your looking into the platform. Everything that I have tried (Preamps, both solid and tube, amps, solid and tube, integrateds, cd players, d/a converters) have been improved by the use of this. As I have warned, it is noxious to make, and the lead presents some health cautions and issues, but the results can, and have been remarkable. Certainly for someone handy it is worth the venture. We spend multiples of this with much smaller improvements. With a product that has the propensity for microphonics this, I believe is made to order.
Laughingly I tell people that the first experiment of this platform was done using an old Harman Kardon Turntable, circa 1985. The table was on a wall mount to decouple it from floor vibrations as much as possible. At that time we used the little platform @30# or less. The table immediately sounded less like an HK and more like a Linn Sondek. OK, OK not that good, but a transformation nontheless. I listened to Marty Robbins singing a song , I think, 'Among My Souveniers', maybe, but the exact title excapes me. But I was completely and utterly surprised. It works! Sort of like Young Frankenstein, "He lives, he lives!" Funny now but also fun to think back on. If you would like more detailing just email me privately. I have never been ceased to be amazed at this thing.
Thanks and...
Good Listening.
Larry |
The discussion is over, but careful readers of this thread should separate the motivations of the contributors here.
I offered a hommade solution to anyone who choses to try it. No gain. Apparently theauditweak is selling the Sistrum. Frankly I am surprised that this unabashed selling is allowed in this thread. I am sure that astute readers can separate the sales pitch from the helpful effort. If you contact the tweak, see if he is trying to help or offering to sell you this Sistrum. Of course the free Platform is not as good, he doesn't make a profit. Hey I am a capitalist, but that is not what this site is for.
My last post. Audiotweak should try for maximum effect with a real zinger here. I hope he sells a ton of them.
Good Listening,
Larry |
Suspending a circuit within any given chassis will only serve to trap the resonant energy transmitted by the transformer and all internal as well as external wiring. Some of this errant energy will be electro-mechanical self generated by the circuit itself some will be airborne generated. So now the floating board has no way of dissapating this self perpetuating resonant energy. It is now trapped. Oh well.. By the way dampening will only compound this problem.. Tom |
My sole motivation here is for people to get the lead out. Some things are only worth free. Mass loading is old school, dampening is old school,isolation is old school. I am old and have been to all those previous schools. Thankfully I'm not there anymore. Most people I would like to have drop by for a listen. It is very fullfilling to see a friend become excited about some new implementation and benefit of physics. My only payoff is the turn on I receive knowing a friend has now opened his mind and his ears. Tom |
Theaudiotweak, I believe Lrsky has devised a very interesting solution. While I can only speculate from what I've read thus far, it seems that since the lead is contained or perhaps suspended inside the "fishing worm" goo, I suspect this "lightens the load" of the lead and allows it to move more freely than normal in reaction to vibration, hence dissipating the energy. Theaudiotweak is correct on many levels about dampening and the need to drain (the right amount of)unwanted resonant energy away from the component. From what I perceive thus far about Lrsky's design, it seems that it IS potentially draining energy. Making an assumption that it is only dampening simply because there is lead present cannot be accurate. |
Bwhite, Respectfully this is but an 80lb.storage device. There are many others of this same school.. Resonant energy can only be suspended, stored with no place to go but up into the very chassis it supposedly will benefit. What about airborne energy it too will have no high speed way of exit. It will be slowed to exit by the material that it rests upon. Perpetuating the storage of resonance by such devices only regurgitates and continually amplifies the whole procedure over and over again. No way out...Tom |
Theaudiotweak said he had no need for his 80 pound platform. He wouldn't take any money, but gave it to me. It was a very nice thing for him to do, but 1 man's trash is another man's treasure. I had 1 of Larry's smaller platforms and I am ecstatic about having a larger one. I'm not very technical but this thing works!! The music is smoother, richer, fuller with more low level detail and much less microphonic hash. My guess would be that what you really hear is the absence of that microphonics that makes everything better. When I got Tom's platform home, I noticed that the feet were recessed in to the platform. No suspension would account for much less improvement. The object of the game is to shunt the energy in to the platform and have it suspended on feet with a very small surface touching your shelf. Without that suspension I would guess you lose most of the benefits. I hope to fix the feet and invite theaudiotweak over to listen to the difference.
The world is full of isolation products. The Still Points do a great hjob and I'm sure others work well. My 30 pound platform is a big step up from the Still Points, and I can't wait to see how much the 80 pound platform makes when set up correctly. My experience has been that this thing makes everything better! I would strongly recommend trying to make one if possible. If not, I'm sure there are many other choices for isolation. I think the Still Points are good, and I'm looking forward to hearing theaudiotweaks device of choice.
Thanks to the tweak for the platform, and to lrsky for sharing a great design which can cure microphonic problems, and make your system sound much better for a small investment. |
84audio I would be happy to hear your system and you, hear mine. 4 teflon feet compressed under 80lbs, plus the additional weight of the resting component provdes no exit of collected resonant energy. Trapped..Tom |
I'm always open to new experiences. It's fun to hear new components and devices. I have tried a lot of tweaks over the last 15 years, and none have been more effective than the platform, but it needs to be set up correctly. The feet need to be engaged to provide suspension or you lose the benefits. |
More misinformation, and why not, if you don't understand, just disagree.
Well, I said that I wouldn't respond because I wanted to break away, but the statements made are incorrect.
Whether this works or not, is not predicated on the fact that the energy has to "go somewhere" in the sense it is being portrayed here.
The mass of the platform, and its ability to absorb the energy is greater than the devices ability to produce energy or store (retain) energy, and whether or not the mechanical impedence is such that the Platform will accept this transfer. The energy transfered into this mass is converted into potential energy, and suspended in the floating 80# of goo (sorbothane), making it potential energy, as opposed to Kinetic, while taking it out, to some appreciable degree from the device paced on it. The reason the 80# device works better is that it is able to absorb more energy than the smaller one. The key is the mechanical impedence of the top of the platform, and its ability to accept this transfer. Soft, pliant, and massive. Energy will flow in the direction which has the least impedence (or most conducive impedence). Again, don't buy anything from me. Try it if you like.
A short and quick lesson, For this example, Two types of exchange can occur between the system and surroundings: (1) energy exchange (heat, work, friction, radiation, etc.) and (2) matter exchange (movement of molecules across the boundary of the system and surroundings).Two types of exchange can occur between the system and surroundings: (1) energy exchange (heat, work, friction, radiation, etc.) and (2) matter exchange (movement of molecules across the boundary of the system and surroundings). This makes a lot of sense when you consider that the universe is made up of matter and energy--of course they are also kind of the same thing (E = mc^2). Based on the types of exchange which take place or don't take place, we will define three types of systems:
This makes a lot of sense when you consider that the universe is made up of matter and energy--of course they are also kind of the same thing (E = mc^2). Based on the types of exchange which take place or don't take place. This last short inset was taken from text book writings, don't believe me. Just read about it.If you like, and this makes sense, try building the thing.
Please forgive the typos's and misspellings, this was done in a rush.
Good listening.
Larry
|
Hey, can anyone share a backside picture (big enough) of a SUPRATEK preamp (if possible with XLR outputs)? I need to know how Supratek inputs (RCA) and outputs (RCA + XLR) are organized. Where they stand and if they are placed right & left or up & down, etc. A drawing would be perfect also. Thanks! |
Oh, but I do understand, so it is very easy to disagree. You know I had both and now I have only one. The platform was replaced years before this thread was started.Tom |
Got the platform working! The screws were embedded but we were able to get them loose enough to make it functional. I placed it under my Berning amp and it made a huuuuge improvement. I have used Still Points under my Berning for some time. I thought this helped but while following this thread, I thought I would try my 30 pound platform under the Berning instead. The little platform is clearly better than the Still Points under the Berning. Thanks to theaudiotweak, I now have the 80 pound platform. After playing with the screws, I put it under the Berning. Wow!! Everything got better still!! There is an absence of microphonic hash which results in more low level detail. The soundstage is bigger, images are better, much better dynamic contrast, the top end is much smoother, and the bass is signifacantly better. I can't overstate what an improvement this 80 pound platform made. I hope to get some replacement teflon screws soon and I expect that will also help.
As i said in an earlier post, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Again, I owe theaudiotweak big and can't thank him enough.
Everybody's ears are different and tastes are all over the board. I think this made such a difference on the Berning because it is so light, and Dave pays no attention to isolation. I would think the platform would be especially good on tubes.
This thing outperforms the Still Points which retail at about $275. If you can build or find one I think you will notice great improvement in your system. All this technical talk makes my head hurt so I'm going to fire up the Berning and have some fun!! Thanks again to Tom for the platform that he didn't want, and to Larry for the design. |
Go Joe! Lets get together and hear each others system and when we do, that we partake in a usefull comparison of mass isolation versus direct coupling..Tom |
BWhite,
Have you had a chance of testing the home theatre pass through yet.
If so, what are your thoughts.
Furthermore, any other modifications you wish you had ordered.
TJackson |
Hi Guys
MickM here- as you know I dont think manufacturers should actively participate in these forums as it is too hard to stay unbiased, and I believe the quality of the product should do all the talking from the manufacturers side.
However, the ongoing issue of noise and microphonics needs to be addressed as there seems to be a basic misunderstanding of it.
It's all related to the TOTAL gain of the preamp/power amp system.
All amplifiers, pre or power, have an inherant noise floor that in a compatible system is inaudible.
The Syrah or Chardonnay , with their gain switches set to max are very high gain preamps. Used with a low gain, or low sensitivity power amp the noise floor remains inaudible, but if you connect a high gain power amp, then the gain of the preamp and the gain of the power amp gets multiplied together and the inherant noise floor, which is hum, hiss and microphonics, also becomes amplified and becomes audible.
Bryan W has noted that his Cortese is very quiet without a sign of microphonics- this is simply because the Cortese has lower gain than a Syrah or Chardonnay with gain set to max.
But if you use the gain switches on the Syrah or Chardonnay, it is possible to adjust gain to approx the same level of the Cortese and eliminate noise and microphonics.
Unfortunately there are some power amps around these days which have ridiculous anounts of gain- they are designed to be used direct with a CD player (horrible sound!)and are more correctly called an integrated amp and aren't ideal for use with a preamp with any gain.
However, realizing that it's not a perfect world, I included the gain switches on the Syrah, Chardonnay to counter this.
With the combination of the two gain switches (top and back mounted) it is possible to remove any noise components from your system, and adjust the sonics to suit.
It does require a bit of patience, but it is possible to achieve your own "sweet spot" using the gain controls.
If you tap the side of the Syrah's 6SN7's with gain set to max, you will hear microphonics. Set the gain switches to "low" and a tap will result in no microphonics.
These refinements make the Syrah and the Chardonnay extremely versatile preamps able to drive any power amp, tube or SS.
Please note that the noise issue has nothing to do with impedance- that's more to do with the drive capabilities of the preamp, but all the Supratek pres have low output impedance and can drive anything.
I hope that makes it clearer - now I can disappear back to my work bench!
I have to say that I never thought this thread would last so long- unfortunately I dont have the time to check it often, but I'm alway's available at supra@supratek.biz to help when needed.
Thanks for all your support-I've made some great friends through Supratek and I hope your enjoyment and appreciation of the joy of music has been heightened by the use of my pres. Which is the sole reason for their existence- dont fret too much about hi-fi, just enjoy the music.
Best Regards to all.
MickM
PS
The tube compliment of the Syrah is 5842,6GK5,6N8P(6SN7),6L6GC and 5AR4.
The tube compliment of the Cortese is E180F (in this configuration just about the most linear tube available),E88CC(6922),6N8P(6SN7)6L6GC and 5AR4.
Regulator tubes can be either 6L6GC,5881,EL34 and KT66 on all models.(And the exotic WE350,7027- although too expensive to justify)
You can use any of these in the regulator position as it is self biasing, but not 6550 or KT88.
PPS- my favorite tweak is a new CD,vinyl. |
TJackson, Sorry... I don't have a home theater processor right now so I haven't been able to test the theater throughput. For HT, I've been using a Sony integrated unit which contains the DVD player, amp and receiver in one box. Unfortunately, that unit does not have preamp level outputs and thus will not work for test purposes. The only way for me to test right now would be to plug my CD directly into the HT Bypass... and I am not going to do that for fear of damaging the speakers.
By the looks of the latest HT Bypass, I can say (without testing) that it seems to function as planned.
I will try to find another preamp or another means to test this soon. |
Hey Mick, Great to read your input on the board! Thanks for the tips on microphonics. After some break-in, my Cortese is sounding magnificent. I love that baby!
Did you try that power cord Ethan sent you? I hope you did. After trying MANY power cords, I found that cord to be simply awesome on Suprateks! I've wanted to tell everyone about this cord but I just don't know if he can get enough of them built to meet demand. I realize the plugs are not correct for Australia but I'm sure he would be okay with your changing the plugs for demo purposes. If you do get to hear it, let me know what you think.
Another thing that helped microponics - even with high gain - was some dampening material. A technician who looked at one of my preamps "installed" some of this material on the inside top of the preamp as well as on the bottom plate. This stuff diminished the microphonics tremendously - even at high gain settings.
However, with the dampening material inside the preamp, I noticed a darkening of the sound. One problem "solved" and another started... Perhaps the gain settings ARE the right way to resolve this. :) |
My experiments with dampening materials shut down the sound of my system and stifled the dynamics. Life started again by removing the lead and dampening.Tom |
Which only confirms my view that a little bit of microphonics doesn't hurt - in fact it can enhance the sound!
I have found that the 6SN7 is an inherently microphonic tube in any preamp. It might sound strange, but of the several different types of 6SN7's that I have, my preference is for the Sylvania VT231. It is a bit microphonic compared to the others, but to my ears it has the most treble extension; a greater sense of 'aliveness'; more openess and gives a nice bloom to the acoustics of the recording studio - making you believe you are 'there'. But in the end even with the VT231 it is still only a relatively small gain, as IMO even the stock 6N8P (a 6SN7 equivalent) sounds very good in a Supratek preamp.
Mick's explanation of noise and gain is a good one. I personally am reluctant to fiddle with my Supratek amps & preamps , believing and trusting that they have left Mick's workshop sounding how they are supposed to sound.
Audio is an interesting and all-absorbing hobby, but we need to be careful of chasing pots of gold under rainbows - they are usually not there...
Regards,
Steve M. |
Somewhere out there on some web site or maybe it was our friend Warren who said "let it vibrate". Natural is what we all hope for..... Dampen is to strangle as Sistrum is to live. My opinion shared by many..Tom |
Hey BWhite, maybe I missed a post on the power cord that you referred to in your post to Mick. If not, come on man, spill the beans, inquiring minds want to know!
But then again, if you start another thread that runs into 600 posts I am going to be pissed if I have to read all of them too! |
Hi Fiddler, I haven't mentioned the power cords mostly because I don't know what the availability is, or will be. I didn't want to turn everyone on to these if there weren't any places to get them... or if the manufacturer wasn't interested in mass-production... know what I mean?
I learned about the power cord from a friend of mine who like me had tried many power cords in his Supratek but was never exactly satisfied with any particular cord threfore using a cord which did the least harm. Once he "discovered" these, he ordered five or six additional cords and now uses them throughout his system for everything except his amps - which left him a few extra.
I purchased mine from him and the price was IMHO very reasonable - far less than any decent retail cable. I don't want to post his email address on Audiogon so, if you email me, I will put you in touch with him. He's a pretty cool guy so maybe he'll sell you one of his extras or give you one to audition? I don't know, so just email me.
What I found about this power cord particularly on the Supratek was how it added life to the unit. It is the kind of benefit that (now that I have heard it) I cannot live without in my system. I never liked what Electraglide, NBS, FIM, Virtual Dynamics, Elrod, Shunyata, etc. did on the Supratek. The results were either not enough good to justify the price, or too much.... and sent my system over the edge in one way or another. I had been using an Absolute PC on my preamp for a while because it didn't seem to get in the way, add anything or harm anything.
Some people really love the Absolutes and my feelings with these are love/hate. I loved that it was better than a stock cord & didn't change much or do much harm and I hated that I found nothing which performed better without going over the top.
Its weird, adding the new power cord to the Supratek, the difference was very subtle as if almost nothing changed. Everything seems right.. just like I envisioned it did before, but going back to the old cable and listening, I noticed the system sounded dull, lethargic and lifeless by comparison. Switching back to the new power cord, gave me that "Ahhh... much better" feeling and I haven't removed it from my system since.
The benefit of this PC comes without any apparent shift in tonal balance or any negative "side effects". It is a very, very good match for the Supratek. My friend was so excited about the cord that he sent one to Mick for audition. Unfortunately, he overlooked the fact that Australia uses different connectors. :) |
Hi Folks:
I purchased a pair of KenRad 6L6G for the regulator position in my Syrah, but one of the tubes does not appear to show any filiment lighting up and it's cold to the touch even after extended use (whereas the other one is lit up and warm/hot). I'm thinking the tube is dead but I've no equipment to test it. I got the tubes on eBay and they were listed as NOS but were untested. I'm wondering is my thinking right (is the tube definitely dead)? The strange thing is the music plays just fine, but then I tried removing the dead regulator tube to see how the music sounds, and it still sounds fine. Hence, I'm wondering what role these tubes play at all??? Any opions are welcome. Thanks. |
I am blown away by what everyone is saying about this pre-amp. Is there anyone in Los Angeles that would be willing to show off their shinny chrome beauty? Maybe do a shootout with an Audio Note preamp? |
Outlier, The Supratek's will play fine without the regulator tubes installed. I am not sure exactly what the tube does but... I presume they regulate... :) I've tried a few tubes in that position and have just recently tried the Metal 6L6 RCA's. (Black Metal tubes) They're kind of ugly but they sound very, very impressive and are pretty inexpensive. Worth a shot if you can stomach the looks.
My guess is one of your Ken Rad 6L6G's is dead.
Also... did you hook up with Ethan regarding that power cord? I think you might like it. I've got one and its a big enhancement to my system. |
Hi Bwhite, thanks for the tip on the other tubes. Yea, I guess the KenRad likely is dead (cost me $110 after shipping for the pair too ;-) I'll see can I get refund or replacement.
Yea, I do need to get my hands on that PC. Right now I'm between CD players (just sold my YBA CD1a), and I'm having my Teres 135 upgraded to 245, so I'm musicless right now, but will see can I try the cord when I get back in action with the 245. I have to get a new CD player now too. I've heard good, interesting things about the Meitner/Phillips rig - might try that (if it doesn't cost me an arm and leg). Cheers, and happy listening. |
I think the Philips/Meitner rig DOES cost an arm and a leg! I believe they are about 10K?
You might look up John Wright at museatex.com. He is modifying Ed Meitners "older" products. I recently got one of the Bidat DACs modified by John and it's simply the best digital I have ever heard (and I've owned just about every one box player worth owning). The DAC including mods cost me 900 bucks total. Don't let the price fool you. This thing is the real deal.
Congratulations on your Teres upgrade! That will be sweet I'm sure. |
