Power supply for ethernet switch?

Any tempus power supply shipped after Oct 23rd, 2024 is the upgraded version.

I just noticed Network Acoustics is now shipping their Tempus switch with an upgraded power supply.

@mclinnguy 

I wasn’t familiar with them either until about a month ago. But a fair amount of digging and consideration for what each respective firm was doing led me in this direction. I think they’re all trying to reduce EMI noise and use improved power supplies. Reiki and Ron Buffington at Liquid HiFi - the dealer I worked with (recommended) were better able to make that case.

I’m quite pleased with the results.

Best,

@mgrif104 

Never heard of that one. Thanks for the info. 

This may be interpreted by some as enlightening, others may interpret it as pure lies, so be it: 

Reiki founder Nigel Bell comes from an IT background and like many others doubted the benefit of using a network switch in a streaming system until he tried a cheap example and had an epiphany. He expected to hear nothing or nothing more than a subtle change but in his words “it simply wasn’t”. That was in 2019 when he was working on an equipment rack that not only sounded good but looked good enough to put in a living room, and this revelation forced a change of approach and resulted in the Reiki SuperSwitch range.

https://hifiplus.com/articles/reiki-audio-superswitch-master-pro-servant-pro-filtering-network-switch/

Despite the well-meaning intentions of those who wish to help prevent us from spending money unwisely, I recently purchased the Reiki Audio switch and upgraded power supply through Liquid Hifi. (See: reikiaudio.com) It seemed more thoughtfully designed and built than the others I considered, other than the one from Taiko.

Newly installed, it brought a sizable and unmistakable improvement over my previous switch - the English Electric.  

I don’t think expensive network switches are for everyone. They range from an expensive accessory to very expensive accessory. And I can imagine some home networks will benefit more than others, some less, based on the many variables present. Nevertheless, for me, it was an entirely reasonable and worthwhile investment.

YMMV. 

@kingbr, I use two network switches in cascade in between my CAT-6 router and a Network Acoustics ENO Ethernet System filter that feeds my music streamer. The first is a cheap D-Link DGS-105 five port switch, and the second is a business grade Cisco SG250 smart switch. I use an iFi iPower SMPS on the D-Link switch and an iFi Elite X switch mode power supply with the Cisco. Both are plugged into an AudioQuest Niagara power conditioner. Many folks would ask why would anyone use expensive power supplies on inexpensive network switches for streaming music from the internet? My answer is that having the cleanest power possible running into and through any listening chain is crucial if you want to hear everything on a piece of recorded music.

@mclinnguy Thank you! I did see that Gen2 was in the works. Might wait for that one, though if there’s a jump in cost over the original not sure if I can swing it. But no harm in waiting I guess. But the EtherREGEN is absolutely the route I’m going. The reviews (especially Hans’) totally tipped the scales. For now my Trendnet switch will hold the fort. I’m also going to hold off on a power supply for now until I pull the trigger on the EtherREGEN. The 30 day guarantee is nice but I totally think I’ll also add to the list of keepers of this unit.

Thanks for also providing the link!

30 day money back guarantee, nothing to loose to try it.

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/etherregen

In the first 3000 Alex has sold I believe he has had 4 returns (going off of memory)

I am one of ones who didn't return it. 

There may quite a few used ones coming up for sale when the Gen 2 etherregen is released, estimated to be this June, just to let you know. 

The official Uptone threads are on this forum: 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/25-uptone-audio-sponsored/

Let us know!

Hi, All!

So after digging, reading, searching, comparing, and just as I was about ready to pull the trigger on the Silent Angel, while watching Hans' review I came across his review of the EtherREGEN. Decision made, I'm going with the EtherREGEN! 

Maybe I'll add a power supply down the line as well...

Just want to thank all who took the time to respond and offer advice!

Think everyone needs to read this, to get a fundamental understanding of how ethernet works. 

https://www.techtarget.com/searchnetworking/definition/packet

It's so different from an audio signal, noise can not piggyback on a packet. Ethernet jitter will not affect sound like audio jitter. It's completely different. Jitter in e-net can just slow down transfer, in worst case just have the packets be retransferred, greatly slowing down transfer. 

IMHO, when someone gets a better PS for a switch, the increased in sound quality, might just be from removing the noise from the home power. I can see where if you have a crap PS, and get a clean PS that maybe the router might be able to process things better, or just work a bit better in general. 

Money is much better spent in just getting certified CatX cables instead. 

I found that an Sbooster BOTW 12V power supply gave me a nice improvement with my Melco S100 switch.

@kingbr, I also have an inexpensive TP Link switch in my network attached to my network player/dac.  Interested by testimonies of better audio performance from improved network components, I made a couple of relatively inexpensive changes as a test.

I replaced the stock TP Link switch mode power supply (SMPS) with a linear regulated power supply from Jameco, cost $12-$14 plus shipping.  I compared the two power supplies (PS) on my oscilloscope with the same current draw as the switch.  The stock SMPS PS output an awful racket of sawtooth noise while the Jameco linear regulated PS looked like a smooth line.  To my ears the Jameco sounded better too.  Music sounded smoother and less peaky with no loss of detail.  I heard better definition, sense of space, and placement of instruments.  On a 1-10 scale I’d rate the improvement a 2, not huge, but certainly worth $20 or so.

Now I’m sure an audiophile PS from Small Green Computer, iFi, or other source would be even better and audiophile purpose switch even more so.  However, the Jameco PS was an inexpensive way to see if a PS made a difference in my network and audio system.  It did.  An option to consider.

Incidentally, the other change I made was adding an iFi LAN iSilencer at the input of the network player.  Another small improvement IMO.

@mclinnguy ….

@mclinnguy

Well, I’ve re-read the article on Alpha Audio entitled “Hard evidence: a network affects playback quality” and am little the wiser.  Alpha Audio is a Dutch audio blog started by Jaap Veenstra, a journalist with an interest in audio.

Deep in the comments on the article there is a statement that the jitter was measured on the output from the clock feeding the input to the Sabre ESS DAC included in the streamer.

In response to the first comment

“You say that these minor differences in switch jitter are “audible”. How did you determine this? What science is behind this claim?”

moderator Martijn replied

“We use two very special fleshy flaps that are attached to the sides of our heads to determine audible differences. The science part is that we do not claim to do science”.

The issue for me is that this last statement is patently true, but conflicts with the headline “Hard Evidence”, and the way that the results have been used in this topic.

In the past, the Alpha Audio blog has used high-street kit speakers to assess sound quality.

Here’s part of what I think they did.  They took a fairly low-end streamer and “placed it in the RF-shielded measurement box”. Also in the box seems to be other active electronic components of the test measuring system, plus an Ethernet connection, probe cables and an extension lead.  Almost the entire cover (Faraday cage?) of the streamer has been removed.

Anyone familiar with microwave ovens knows that a Faraday cage can keep RFI in as well as out!  Also that wires entering the cage can carry noise.

They used the streamer’s external 5-Volt switching power supply.  The streamer includes a CPU running at more than gigahertz speeds, plus a wireless hot spot.  In other words, the streamer itself is potentially electrically extremely noisy.

They picked three common Ethernet switches and a couple of extra power supplies.  They did not say what speed Ethernet they used, but Gigabit would make sense.

If we exclude airborne RFI (big if) the obvious source of jitter is noise carried on the power supply lines between the switches and the streamer.  Considering the number of switched mode power supplies in the chain, this is hardly surprising.

It is possible that some electrical noise is carried by the Ethernet cable, probably of the unshielded twisted pair type.  A good baseline would have included measurements without the Ethernet cable, and without the switches and their power supplies.  I did not see any such baselines in the results.

Now for the claim that there is a difference of 30 picoseconds of jitter.  Run the DAC on two channels at 192-kHz to get a sample rate of 384-kHz.  That’s about 2.6 million picoseconds per sample.  So 30 picoseconds represents a timing error of about 1 part in 100,000.  That is smaller than the resolution of amplitude on a CD.  I would title the article “No evidence: a network affects playback quality”

** Sorry Hans, you are not that old- typo- that should say 1984

@amtprod 

I meant no attitude towards you, only questioning the title of "audio engineer" which I assumed was not an actual academic study leading towards an actual degree, and would degrade the title of "professional engineer". 

But it is! I stand corrected: One can obtain a bachelor's and post graduate degrees in audio engineering. 

No idea what Julian has for education; if he is an actual engineer. Of course we all know there are many who make a few recordings at home and all of a sudden they are calling themselves an "audio engineer". 

Hans is a member of the audio engineering society, since 1884, not sure if Julian is. 

https://www.aes.org/aes/hansbeekhuyzen

@mclinnguy yea I don't tolerate people coming at me with attitude and talking to me like I said or did something idiotic, like ignorantly ask if an 'audio engineer' is like a "sanitation engineer". 

@amtprod 

My, my. Saying the f word to another forum member. And I am the one who needs to calm down? 

Hans talks about the measuring done in the video posted by @mgrif104 in this video:

The BS about switches

@amtprod 

An audio engineer? Is that like a sanitation engineer?

Now watch some youtube videos from someone who actually knows something:

why digital circuits influence sound quality

@erik_squires Good point on the jitter.  Always thought this breakdown from an audio engineer was worth knowing on jitter and audibility.

https://youtu.be/f_r33B4jptA?si=ThUHNOqAcbyO-LgI

Ethernet jitter has nothing to do with DAC jitter.  Or should not.  The reason is buffers built into the streamers, which may hold several seconds worth of music.  The buffer's output is doled out by the DAC chip itself on demand.

Even a loss of network connectivity lasting several seconds should not impact the music, or video for that matter.

Certainly network latency of even hundreds of milliseconds and jitter in the same scale should do nothing to the audio jitter except in poorly designed and tested systems.

Hi @erik_squires !  Thank you!! Appreciate the simple break down!!  Furman seems to be very reputable for solid distribution surge protection devices,  etc, and not any of the "immense sound stage, spicier peppers, brighter light bulbs, wetter water!".  I think the one you mentioned looks like a great choice for the digital devices like routers, modems, switches, small computers, maybe even DAC.  $300, a bargain too! 

Best wishes friend.

SILENT ANGEL BONN 8 network switch also has its own brand dedicated LPS … “ FORESTER F1 lps”

there is a pre-owned combo paired unit up for sale on CAM, priced in $CDN 

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/650167218-silent-angel-bonn-8-ethernet-switch-forester-f1-linear-power-supply/

You answer does nothing to clarify this, yet you continue to trot out that something can be measured, so someone can hear the improvement.  You seem to have dropped the con from seconds but not necessarily from your post.

@richardbrand your attack matches the definition of internet troll. 

It is explained in the article where the jitter was measured- look again. 

@richardbrand 

curious. - I don’t know why the picosecond didn’t copy over from my post. Another mystery.

As to your question - I won’t venture an answer as I’m not the author of that material. The point the author was making is that a switch indeed introduces measurable jitter.  

Before this study, many believe they heard improvements from upgraded switches. I acknowledge it could still be placebo, but at least we now can begin to consider potential deleterious effects of jitter with some supporting data.

The point I was trying to make is that it’s not worth spending time on as it’s a circular argument.  A point you seem to find unsatisfying.

@mgrif104 

“Some will still disagree or remain skeptical about 30 picosends of timing error being audible. So be it. But I would suggest that it’s no longer worth arguing over. It can be measured and some of us hear the improvement.”

I was simply saying that it was not clear whether the jitter (30 picoseconds?) was measured on the ethernet side or the output of the data buffer.

You answer does nothing to clarify this, yet you continue to trot out that something can be measured, so someone can hear the improvement.  You seem to have dropped the con from seconds but not necessarily from your post.

Hey @amtprod ,

Furman units with SMP are series mode surge protectors.  Like ZeroSurge or Brickwall.  What they all have in common is they have a low pass filter at the start of the surge protection circuit, which is another word for "noise filter."

This low pass filter is active around 3kHz and higher, which is a lot lower than EMI/RFI filters, a good thing. 

Furman also adds LiFT, an active linear filtering technology to further reduce noise.  While the strip is designed to reduce noise coming in, it also effectively reduces noise above 3 kHz going out, making it a great candidate for wall warts.

The low pass filter slows down a voltage surge long enough for the rest of the circuitry to have time to respond to it.  Some parallel mode surge strips also incorporate some sort of low pass filtering for similar reasons. 

@erik_squires Thanks for the power strip recommendation!!!  I was actually just looking into a good/safe one for my system. I'm using a 'good quality' one (basically just solid, all metal, strip) but there's no real surge protection or filtering of any kind. I would imagine the filtering done is some form of high frequency carry on the power line that has an impact on the Ethernet switch/routers?

E-net switches do not use a lot of power, demand stay around the same regardless of what is being passed through it.  If it was a POE switch, then a power supply would make sense. But on a regular couple port switch, don't think it's worth the time and money. 

With a cheap switch, it should not be plugged in with your stereo. I'm sure the cheap switches have no noise rejection protection, generally electrical noise is not a concern with switches. Not only that, but the way the switch works, it will not transfer power noise to ethernet. 

Ethernet is not a audio signal, it's digital packets.

@richardbrand

I’m aware of how the data is handled. However, I’ll just go back to what I posted:

“Some will still disagree or remain skeptical about 30 picosends of timing error being audible. So be it. But I would suggest that it’s no longer worth arguing over. It can be measured and some of us hear the improvement.”

Best,

@kingbr You're most welcome. You can always add the Silent Angel Bonn N8 switch later when your budget allows. I get the most satisfaction in building my system gradually, backed by doing extensive research and diving deeper into the rabbit hole. 

@mgrif104

I've read the article and am none the wiser about what it actually claims to be measuring!  I found the dog's breakfast of wires in one of the photos illuminating.

If it is measuring jitter in the ethernet, be aware that all ethernet data has to be fed into a big data buffer before being re-clocked out again, so jitter on the ethernet side becomes irrelevant. 

@mclinnguy  Thanks for chiming in, The Symphony does have its own power supply, but I am using an AQ power cable from the power supply into my Furman Elite PC. It did improve sound for sure, but I'm thinking if I add the switch and the SGC setup it'll just be too much...

@mgrif104 That is super helpful-thank you! Read a few blurbs and they say it's actually measurable. I have read and researched so much on this. It seems it's 50/50 on whether it makes an improvement or not. Good discussions. Like I had said I needed to add a switch anyway and of course (like literally everything in this hobby) I came across a whole can of worms and followed it down the rabbit hole🤣🤣

There is some data to help answer the question of whether or not a quality switch can make a difference. 

https://www.alpha-audio.net/background/hard-evidence-a-network-affects-playback-quality/

Some will still disagree or remain skeptical about 30 picosends of timing error being audible. So be it. But I would suggest that it’s no longer worth arguing over. It can be measured and some of us hear the improvement.

Best, 

so this Symphony is a box to improve "signal degradation from such systems of various cable interfaces", but to use it one has to plug in its own "cheap" switch mode power supply into your system? I don't know.... 

https://add-powr.com/products

Something else is that I also have an ADD-Powr Symphony in the chain. I was having some static issues when I introduced the Hermes. I removed it thinking that could be it. That wasn’t the case so I added it back in. Currently I have Ethernet cable going from TP Link adapter to Symphony in and then Symphony out to Streamer. I’m thinking the Symphony may have to go if I go the SGC route. I almost feel like you get to a certain point where there’s just too much in the chain and it starts doing more harm than good? I posted about this a while back…

@chipcalzone  Thank you. Appreciate you sharing that experience. Being that the Optical Mod from SGC seems to make the biggest difference I’m leaning in that direction and going full in on that package with the power supply, converter, etc. that said I can’t seem to get past the Silent Angel. Unfortunately I can’t do both. It’s either be the Silent Angel OR the SGC route. Still researching and trying to decide. I already have an Ifi LAN Silencer on my TP Link Adapter. 
 

@trivema thanks for the top I’ll check out Alpha Audio. And totally agree again on the Pontus. Did the same for me and damn if this thing isn’t built like an absolute tank!

@kingbr take a look at Alpha Audio.net, they test (and importantly, listen too!) power supplies and Ethernet switches. TP Link, which I also have, did not test as well as some, but sounded excellent, imagine that…can anyone say tube amp? 
 

I originally had the IRIS feeding a Topping D90LE by I2S, a world-class measuring DAC. Sounded great, detailed, transparent, clean, tight bass, extended treble, etc. However the Pontus NOS really took system to a better place, more organic, warm, yet still detailed and with more dimensional sound stage.   
 

Happy listening. Cheers,

@kingbr I tried using an iFi iPower supply (had one lying around) on a TP-Link switch as well as on a Wi-Fi router and it did not do anything for me. Some people swear by upgrading the PS on a Router however in my case it just didn't work. Perhaps a LPS would have been better on a Router vs the iFi.

I have the Silent Angel Bonn N8 Switch and that made a significant improvement. Later on, I added an iFi Lan Purifier Pro (ethernet to fiber optical) which further improved things. I agree with Andrew of SGC that the optical module will make the biggest difference. That was a more dramatic upgrade in sound based on my audio memory.

i  use    Fidelizer               into shunyata v 10 , works  great 

Guy asking about exact same items other guy previously bought.  Seems sort of appropriate to reply.  Guy lending experience and trying to be helpful.   No need for new guy to be so cynical.  :)

Guy asks about changing the power supply on a switch that retails for $15.99 (including the power supply) and in less than a page we are recommending components that cost thousands of dollars. Audio at its best.

Thank you @fastfreight. That is exactly my problem though is that once I hear it I can’t unhear it. This is exactly what gets me into trouble🤦🏼‍♂️🔫😂! 

Hello @kingbr , I do understand.  And some years ago I would have said the exact same thing :)  I do have a suggestion; before buying the fibre conversion stuff, try a Tempus on 30 day trial.  You may be surprised at what you hear!  And, as I found, it is difficult to unhear it!!  Take care, Ken

@trivema COMPLETELY agree about adding DDC to Pontus! I had a rough go of it getting off the ground (having some static issues and a bit of a rough go getting the combo with I2S nailed down), but once everything got straightened out I was floored! Adding Hermes to Pontus was probably every bit as big a jump as adding Pontus to my system. Never expected that big a difference...And thank you for sharing your experience. My system is definitely revealing enough to warrant any tweaks. 

Bottom line for me is I needed to add an ethernet switch anyway, so if there are switches/power supplies, etc that can also make a difference, why not explore that, right?

Denafrips IRIS + Pontus II + TP Link w/ LPS + fanless mini PC source w LPS, + separate power line from panel w/ true earth ground streaming Qobuz; each piece made a difference. IRIS + Pontus biggest improvement followed by separate power line.  LHY LPS relative inexpensive tweak. All worth it w resolving system. 

@fastfreight thank you for the recommendations. Unfortunately the switches you mention are too rich for my blood at this point…was trying to keep it under 1K, even less actually.

@audphile1  I actually do need a switch. That’s what’s driven me down this rabbit hole as I have now read so much about them and how some say it can make a difference. So I figured if I’m going to get one and that it can make a difference with an outboard power supply, etc, I figured why not look a bit deeper…

I’ve been back and forth with Andrew from Small Green Computer and he’s been great! So responsive. According to him the Optical Module is the piece that will make the biggest difference. 
 

Thanks to All for your time and advice. Still debating which path to go😬