Ethernet jitter has nothing to do with DAC jitter. Or should not. The reason is buffers built into the streamers, which may hold several seconds worth of music. The buffer's output is doled out by the DAC chip itself on demand.
Even a loss of network connectivity lasting several seconds should not impact the music, or video for that matter.
Certainly network latency of even hundreds of milliseconds and jitter in the same scale should do nothing to the audio jitter except in poorly designed and tested systems.
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Hi @erik_squires ! Thank you!! Appreciate the simple break down!! Furman seems to be very reputable for solid distribution surge protection devices, etc, and not any of the "immense sound stage, spicier peppers, brighter light bulbs, wetter water!". I think the one you mentioned looks like a great choice for the digital devices like routers, modems, switches, small computers, maybe even DAC. $300, a bargain too!
Best wishes friend.
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You answer does nothing to clarify this, yet you continue to trot out that something can be measured, so someone can hear the improvement. You seem to have dropped the con from seconds but not necessarily from your post.
@richardbrand your attack matches the definition of internet troll.
It is explained in the article where the jitter was measured- look again.
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@richardbrand
curious. - I don’t know why the picosecond didn’t copy over from my post. Another mystery.
As to your question - I won’t venture an answer as I’m not the author of that material. The point the author was making is that a switch indeed introduces measurable jitter.
Before this study, many believe they heard improvements from upgraded switches. I acknowledge it could still be placebo, but at least we now can begin to consider potential deleterious effects of jitter with some supporting data.
The point I was trying to make is that it’s not worth spending time on as it’s a circular argument. A point you seem to find unsatisfying.
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@mgrif104
“Some will still disagree or remain skeptical about 30 picosends of timing error being audible. So be it. But I would suggest that it’s no longer worth arguing over. It can be measured and some of us hear the improvement.”
I was simply saying that it was not clear whether the jitter (30 picoseconds?) was measured on the ethernet side or the output of the data buffer.
You answer does nothing to clarify this, yet you continue to trot out that something can be measured, so someone can hear the improvement. You seem to have dropped the con from seconds but not necessarily from your post.
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Hey @amtprod ,
Furman units with SMP are series mode surge protectors. Like ZeroSurge or Brickwall. What they all have in common is they have a low pass filter at the start of the surge protection circuit, which is another word for "noise filter."
This low pass filter is active around 3kHz and higher, which is a lot lower than EMI/RFI filters, a good thing.
Furman also adds LiFT, an active linear filtering technology to further reduce noise. While the strip is designed to reduce noise coming in, it also effectively reduces noise above 3 kHz going out, making it a great candidate for wall warts.
The low pass filter slows down a voltage surge long enough for the rest of the circuitry to have time to respond to it. Some parallel mode surge strips also incorporate some sort of low pass filtering for similar reasons.
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@erik_squires Thanks for the power strip recommendation!!! I was actually just looking into a good/safe one for my system. I'm using a 'good quality' one (basically just solid, all metal, strip) but there's no real surge protection or filtering of any kind. I would imagine the filtering done is some form of high frequency carry on the power line that has an impact on the Ethernet switch/routers?
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E-net switches do not use a lot of power, demand stay around the same regardless of what is being passed through it. If it was a POE switch, then a power supply would make sense. But on a regular couple port switch, don't think it's worth the time and money.
With a cheap switch, it should not be plugged in with your stereo. I'm sure the cheap switches have no noise rejection protection, generally electrical noise is not a concern with switches. Not only that, but the way the switch works, it will not transfer power noise to ethernet.
Ethernet is not a audio signal, it's digital packets.
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@richardbrand
I’m aware of how the data is handled. However, I’ll just go back to what I posted:
“Some will still disagree or remain skeptical about 30 picosends of timing error being audible. So be it. But I would suggest that it’s no longer worth arguing over. It can be measured and some of us hear the improvement.”
Best,
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@kingbr You're most welcome. You can always add the Silent Angel Bonn N8 switch later when your budget allows. I get the most satisfaction in building my system gradually, backed by doing extensive research and diving deeper into the rabbit hole.
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@mgrif104
I've read the article and am none the wiser about what it actually claims to be measuring! I found the dog's breakfast of wires in one of the photos illuminating.
If it is measuring jitter in the ethernet, be aware that all ethernet data has to be fed into a big data buffer before being re-clocked out again, so jitter on the ethernet side becomes irrelevant.
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@mclinnguy Thanks for chiming in, The Symphony does have its own power supply, but I am using an AQ power cable from the power supply into my Furman Elite PC. It did improve sound for sure, but I'm thinking if I add the switch and the SGC setup it'll just be too much...
@mgrif104 That is super helpful-thank you! Read a few blurbs and they say it's actually measurable. I have read and researched so much on this. It seems it's 50/50 on whether it makes an improvement or not. Good discussions. Like I had said I needed to add a switch anyway and of course (like literally everything in this hobby) I came across a whole can of worms and followed it down the rabbit hole🤣🤣
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so this Symphony is a box to improve "signal degradation from such systems of various cable interfaces", but to use it one has to plug in its own "cheap" switch mode power supply into your system? I don't know....
https://add-powr.com/products
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Something else is that I also have an ADD-Powr Symphony in the chain. I was having some static issues when I introduced the Hermes. I removed it thinking that could be it. That wasn’t the case so I added it back in. Currently I have Ethernet cable going from TP Link adapter to Symphony in and then Symphony out to Streamer. I’m thinking the Symphony may have to go if I go the SGC route. I almost feel like you get to a certain point where there’s just too much in the chain and it starts doing more harm than good? I posted about this a while back…
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@chipcalzone Thank you. Appreciate you sharing that experience. Being that the Optical Mod from SGC seems to make the biggest difference I’m leaning in that direction and going full in on that package with the power supply, converter, etc. that said I can’t seem to get past the Silent Angel. Unfortunately I can’t do both. It’s either be the Silent Angel OR the SGC route. Still researching and trying to decide. I already have an Ifi LAN Silencer on my TP Link Adapter.
@trivema thanks for the top I’ll check out Alpha Audio. And totally agree again on the Pontus. Did the same for me and damn if this thing isn’t built like an absolute tank!
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@kingbr take a look at Alpha Audio.net, they test (and importantly, listen too!) power supplies and Ethernet switches. TP Link, which I also have, did not test as well as some, but sounded excellent, imagine that…can anyone say tube amp?
I originally had the IRIS feeding a Topping D90LE by I2S, a world-class measuring DAC. Sounded great, detailed, transparent, clean, tight bass, extended treble, etc. However the Pontus NOS really took system to a better place, more organic, warm, yet still detailed and with more dimensional sound stage.
Happy listening. Cheers,
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@kingbr I tried using an iFi iPower supply (had one lying around) on a TP-Link switch as well as on a Wi-Fi router and it did not do anything for me. Some people swear by upgrading the PS on a Router however in my case it just didn't work. Perhaps a LPS would have been better on a Router vs the iFi.
I have the Silent Angel Bonn N8 Switch and that made a significant improvement. Later on, I added an iFi Lan Purifier Pro (ethernet to fiber optical) which further improved things. I agree with Andrew of SGC that the optical module will make the biggest difference. That was a more dramatic upgrade in sound based on my audio memory.
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i use Fidelizer into shunyata v 10 , works great
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Guy asking about exact same items other guy previously bought. Seems sort of appropriate to reply. Guy lending experience and trying to be helpful. No need for new guy to be so cynical. :)
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Guy asks about changing the power supply on a switch that retails for $15.99 (including the power supply) and in less than a page we are recommending components that cost thousands of dollars. Audio at its best.
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Thank you @fastfreight. That is exactly my problem though is that once I hear it I can’t unhear it. This is exactly what gets me into trouble🤦🏼♂️🔫😂!
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Hello @kingbr , I do understand. And some years ago I would have said the exact same thing :) I do have a suggestion; before buying the fibre conversion stuff, try a Tempus on 30 day trial. You may be surprised at what you hear! And, as I found, it is difficult to unhear it!! Take care, Ken
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@trivema COMPLETELY agree about adding DDC to Pontus! I had a rough go of it getting off the ground (having some static issues and a bit of a rough go getting the combo with I2S nailed down), but once everything got straightened out I was floored! Adding Hermes to Pontus was probably every bit as big a jump as adding Pontus to my system. Never expected that big a difference...And thank you for sharing your experience. My system is definitely revealing enough to warrant any tweaks.
Bottom line for me is I needed to add an ethernet switch anyway, so if there are switches/power supplies, etc that can also make a difference, why not explore that, right?
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Denafrips IRIS + Pontus II + TP Link w/ LPS + fanless mini PC source w LPS, + separate power line from panel w/ true earth ground streaming Qobuz; each piece made a difference. IRIS + Pontus biggest improvement followed by separate power line. LHY LPS relative inexpensive tweak. All worth it w resolving system.
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@fastfreight thank you for the recommendations. Unfortunately the switches you mention are too rich for my blood at this point…was trying to keep it under 1K, even less actually.
@audphile1 I actually do need a switch. That’s what’s driven me down this rabbit hole as I have now read so much about them and how some say it can make a difference. So I figured if I’m going to get one and that it can make a difference with an outboard power supply, etc, I figured why not look a bit deeper…
I’ve been back and forth with Andrew from Small Green Computer and he’s been great! So responsive. According to him the Optical Module is the piece that will make the biggest difference.
Thanks to All for your time and advice. Still debating which path to go😬
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I love the Pardo linear supplies, i mostly pick them up used… I have my Netgear high performance switch on it, i try to banish wall warts or at minimum get the plugged into a Furman 15 i.
I do convert to optical also…
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@kingbr do you require a switch? Are you splitting Ethernet? Or are you counting on the switch to improve something? If it’s the latter you’re going to be wasting your money.
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@fastfreight Great thanks! Read great things about the Tempus, but never heard of the Dejitterit.
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Hello @mclinnguy , great question.
I bought the M12 and Optimo a few years ago. Later, NA came out with the Tempus and I had talked with Rich at NA about it, so I wanted to try it. I bought it with a 30 day trial. I think they are very comparable, but I did like the looks and fit and finish of the Tempus better. The M12 looks (it is) more industrial. But I could return the Tempus and not the JCAT, so that is what I did. About the same time, I heard the DeJitterit switch at Cap Audiofest and thought GTT's room sounded quieter and smoother than most all other rooms. So Bill sent me one to demo, and I think the Dejitterit from GTT is the best. It is more than a switch, it creates a 'clean network' for only your audio stuff. It is an interesting read, as Chris at DeJitterit points out all the other crap in your home makes noise on the network. Phones, TV's, smart things, lots of things. So taking all that off and creating an audio only clean network seems to me to be critical. Taiko does this. I bought the Dejitterit and kept the JCAT. So now I have: Verizon Modem > (audio feed only) > JCAT M12 w Sean Jacobs Power supply > DeJitterit switch (has its own power supply) > Audio Only.
All the TV and wifi stuff come off the Verizon modem separately. My digital now sounds pretty amazing.
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Hello @kingbr ,
Like you I came from a Netgear switch. I upgraded to the English Electric Bonn 8 and also an EtherRegen. While I think these helped, it was marginal. I sold both and bought a JCAT M12 Gold switch and oh my nice upgrade. Then I added a JCAT Optimo 3 power supply and another significant uptick. I think a quality switch, like JCAT M12, Network Acoustics Tempus or GTT DeJitterit switch make a huge difference. The latter two come with a nice power supply. I have heard all three in my system. I think this is a better way to go vs fiber,
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Thank you for the replies! That helps! @erik_squires I had read that before that these should not be on the same outlet/conditioner as the rest of the system. I had already planned to use a separate outlet for the switch/power supply. Love the PST-8. I have everything else on the Furman Elite 20PfI.
@akg_ca thank you for sharing that. I saw that video as well with Hans and that got my attention. However I saw another blog where they measured the Silent Angel and no difference whatsoever with that vs a Netgear switch. In fact the individual stated he thought the Netgear sounded better...
My dilemma is what direction Silent Angel with Small Green Power Supply, or the Optical Mod, Converter, etc and go all in on the Small Green Computer setup? Costwise would be about the same...
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Personally the fanciest I’d like to get is to use iFi power supplies with the correct V and at least the needed current.
My experience is that giving the switches good clean power is less important than the noise the power adapters can generate back into the AC line itself. For this reason you should keep such devices from being plugged in after your fancy conditioners. Put them on their own strip like a Furman PST-8 which has excellent noise filtering, and surge protection or leave them connected to the wall.
Also, be careful how you route your Ethernet wiring. I use shielded power cords and shielded IC’s in part becasue I have so many Ethernet devices. Try to minimize how and where your Ethernet crosses power cords and interconnects. Avoid bundling them together and definitely don’t put your Ethernet switch on top of your preamp. :D
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I have the SILENT ANGEL Ethernet switch powered by the SMALL GREEN COMPUTER external linear power supply, for it.
I was a card carrying agnostic and high skeptic that upgraded audiophile ethernet cables , switches, and external linear power supplies for them were rubbish …., until I watched the Hans Beekhuyzen Channel videos on YouTubr.. These are even handed learning tools without any of the usual shilling or BS hyperbole or pushing paid-for video promotions.
I took the leap of faith and upgraded finally …..
my take:
yep….they all matter individual and collectively in digital audio performance. And they are worthy upgrades staying in my system.
Fwiw ., ignoring the positive improvements of the Ethernet audiophile grade switch upgrade and Ethernet cables upgrade themselves, the SGC linear power supply was a great upgrade to the “better-then-most OEM” switch mode wall wart supplied with the new unit.
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I run a SGC power supply on my router. I think it results in less outages but cant speaks for SQ as I have not done thorough testing
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