Politics and Music

@moonwatcher Your agenda clear, always inculcated belief system based on indoctrination for liberals, truth for conservatives, inevitable zero sum game.

And talk about repugnant, forcing victims of rape and incest to carry child to term.

Actually, Frank Zappa himself got very involved in politics in 1987, when he went up against Tipper Gore over warning labels on albums, even testifying before Congress.

I know a fair number of musicians who identify as Libertarians, the interesting mix of social liberalism and economic conservatism.

Thank God, or the Supreme Soviet (if that is what you believe in) that stare decisis isn't the be all, end all. Otherwise we might still have slavery.

When ideas become so repugnant, even ideas enshrined by the courts, (think late term abortion), it is good that times can change. 

Most musicians, especially rock era musicians, and even later day bluegrass and Americana music artists are decidedly liberal if they are political at all. This uncritical "group-think" is pervasive among them. I note that Bela Fleck of Bela Fleck and the Flecktones even voted for communist Bernie Sanders.

It’s like they all grew up smoking weed and jamming, so they were in that mindset and never outgrew it.

As a conservative, I simply try to enjoy their music for what it is worth and leave the politics aside. But it is refreshing to find someone not indoctrinated as most are or actually even push back against that indoctrination like Kid Rock or Ted Nugent.

I can still enjoy Jason Isbell’s "Georgia Blue" even though the back story is that he named it that way because Georgia went "blue" in the last election cycle. At least the songs on the album (some REM and and other standards) aren’t political even if the artists themselves are.

It’s like Frank Zappa said of these political types of music artists, "Shut up and play yer guitar".

“Political.”

Just another needless category.  There’s more than one way to skin a cat.  The cat-skinning, in this case, is artistic expression.  Some artists may choose to express themselves in ways that are more routinely an explicit commentary on social matters and may do it with more frequency than others.  
If the music is good, it’s good.

Yes, “Beer for My Horses” by Toby Keith and Willie Nelson (why, Willie, why?!?!) has all the subtlety, nuance and complexity of a club to the head, but the song is not bad because the ideas expressed are bad (but, in all reality, probably) the song is bad because the song is really, really bad.

Just yesterday, I threw on “Okie from Muskogee.”  I forgot how stupid and bad the ideas expressed in that song were.  I still liked it.  Why?  Well, I guess I just think it’s a good song.

@rok2id the Dixie Chicks might have a thing or two to say about the matter of personal risk?

Talking about Garth Brooks and politics, a few years ago Garth came to give a concert in Detroit.  The shows were sold out.  Garth came out in a football jersey #20 with Sanders across the back.  His fans were taken aback.  Garth is supporting Bernie Sanders in the '20 election?  There were jeers.  Both Garth and Barry Sanders went to Oklahoma State and Barry's jersey number was 20 when he played for the Lions.  Garth had to explain it to the crowd.

This topic is worth mentioning only if you live in a country ruled by dictatorships. If there is no personal risk or danger to the artist, then it does not count for much what is said or performed.

Now, imagine being a composer in Soviet Russia during the rule of Stalin. If an artist then, had the balls to write any music that didn’t meet the approval of that great music critic Stalin, it meant much more. Some did some didn’t.

Shostakovich comes to mind.

In the West, its just kids having fun upsetting their parents.

Cheers

Johnny Cash was an early fan of Bob Dylan, but Johnny's cause was the plight of Native Americans. He did an album dedicated to the subject (Bitter Tears: Ballads Of The American Indian).

Merle Haggard is most well known by the general population for his "Okie From Muskogee". "We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee"; I guess his good friend Willie Nelson didn't live there. ;-)

I knew a guy who did sound for The Circle Star Theater in San Carlos, California (a half hour drive south of San Francisco). A bassist I knew went to the theater to see Merle sometime in the 70's, and our soundman friend asked him if he wanted to meet Merle (well duh ;-). They went onto the band bus, and the bassist told me Merle and his band were sitting around the kitchen table, a huge mountain of blow being shared by all. I guess Merle knew America was itching for a redneck anthem, and didn't mind a little cynical cashing-in on that market. 

If it's gonna be good you gotta write/compose from the heart & gut. In any case, I might as well admit it now. I have a strange fixation on rhymes that involve Moon and June.

**** I just don’t consider him or most musicians, actors, talk show hosts, and audio enthusiasts a reliable source of information to base my views upon.****
 

Bingo!

Potential combative thread and I commend the fellow members on this forum for keeping the exchange civil and informative

On a humorous note I recall a televised Garth Brooks concert from DC and the audience was mostly elected officials for the senate and congress, the last song was Friends In Low Places and on your feet sing along audience participation was in full bloom

Found it amusing that most all were singing with all their heart, I've Got Friends In Low Places, fascinating irony

United we stand, divided we fall - lyrics by John Dickenson circa 1865 and Roger Waters circa 1990

@uncledemp

I just don’t consider him or most musicians, actors, talk show hosts, and audio enthusiasts a reliable source of information to base my views upon.

Well said.

Here in the UK the early 80s were a time when quite a few UK artists got political (the Clash, the Specials, the Jam etc, and this seemed to culminate in the Live Aid fiasco of 1985.

After that, music became gradually less overtly politicised.

By then even the Red Wedge founder himself, Billy Bragg, realised the naivety of trying to mix it with the political big boys of the world.

@onhwy61 - Good choices! But the main point of The Clash, Bob Dylan, and Gang of Four was political, as were many of these songs listed by other artists.

These songs didn't need to be 'politicized' - they pretty blatantly were to begin with. 

@crustycoot + 100 - excellent description of what happened.

At 70 years of age and from MD, I certainly remember the Dixiecrats; Spiro Agnew got to be governor of Maryland because he ran as the liberal Republican, believe it or not; the Democrat running against him was a Dixiecrat....  

Please remember to add that the Democratic party of the 1800s was constituted by Andrew Jackson's Nativist/populist coalition, and the GOP was a brand new party devoted to abolition, with its base in the industrial North.  In today's world, the polical roles of the parties has flipped 180 degrees.  The GOP turned into its current alignment when it sought to improve its electoral performance by capturing George Wallace's voters.  The Democrats came to be what they are now after the Dixiecrats switched their alliegance to the newly re-positioned GOP.  Under FDR and LBJ, Democrats  championed of an activist Government promoting societal progress and strengthening the safety net.  The GOP opposes this, and favors nothing but reducing taxation.

The issue of stare decisis today is fraught with political overtones.  The SCOTUS with its new Republican appointed majority can lay waste to many progressive achievemants of the past by applying their tortured "originalist" logic.  Stare Decisis for Thee, Judicial Activism for Me.

Politics and art are nearly inextricably linked.  Witness what happened when people did not stand at attention during the playing of the National Anthem.

Context is important, but any song can be politicized.  A few examples:

Dolly Parton "9 to 5"

Bruce Springsteen "Born In the USA"

Billie Holiday "Strange Fruit"

The Clash "London Calling"

Duke Ellington "Black, Brown And Beige"

Bob Dylan "Blowing In the Wind"

George Cohan "Yankee Doodle Dandy"

Aretha Franklin "Respect"

Stevie Wonder "Livin' In the City"

The Who "My Generation"

The Band "The Night They Drove Ol' Dixie Down"

Marvin Gaye "Inner City Blues"

Village People "Y.M.C.A."

Jimi Hendrix "Machine Gun"

Rolling Stones "Under Cover Of the Night"

Gang Of Four "Call Me Up"

They even politicized "A Whiter Shade Of Pale".

Clearly, history has shown music and politics cannot be separated.  In that case, I agree with Frogman's above comments.

@bdp24

A lot of Democrats were Reagan Democrats, so don’t hold that against Neil. Reagan won 49 states in the 1984 election and you don’t do that without a lot of support from the opposite side. Why did so many Democrats like Reagan even though they disliked his economic policies? Because he was an effective communicator and he was wiling to compromise to get things done. He and Tip O’Neill worked together and both compromised, something which since the days of Newt Gingrich you no longer see. Reagan also started us down the path of ending the Cold War and kept inflation low. If you want to pick out a villain, Gingrich is the one to choose.

@artemus_5 Which only makes my point, good or bad, the rule of man holds as final arbiter for law.

@sns

Yep, that was an early impression on a young mind, always equated that with the ’rule of man’, the rule of law is delusion. Observe the present Supreme Court as they ignore Stare Decisis for evidence of this.

Stare Decisis is like the person who makes a wrong turn which leads him in the opposite direction of his destination, yet continues on their erroneous path. That is stare’ decisis in action. The later decision to overturn the  Democrat lead Dredd Scott decision of 1857 was also a break from Stare Decisis and a welcomed one by every black America because it restored their freedom

Did ya’ll know that Neil Young was for a time a "Reagan Democrat"? Disappointing.

For years I greatly admired Joan Baez as an "activist" (I don’t care for the term, as it feels to me somewhat pejorative), but didn’t care for her artistically (too much vibrato in her voice). But I have recently found her very alluring (upon hearing her recording of Dylan's "Sad Eyed Lady Of The Lowlands"), and am in the process of exploring her recordings.

I immediately took to Iris Dement, as did Merle Haggard (he recorded her astounding song "No Time To Cry", as heartbreaking a song as I have ever heard). My love and respect for her only increased when I heard her "Wasteland Of The Free", a scathing indictment of the Christian Right, who responded to the song by ostracizing her (she was brought up Pentecostal). She’s too honest for them.

"...the politics of dancing.....the politics of feeling good..."

In all times, in all forms, there's always the artist that feels the need to play a comment on their era's foibles and fumbles....

Where ones stands in relation to that will generally create a wall that divides.

Whether or not it relates or riles is up to you.

Try to enjoy or internalize to suit.... ;)

But do carry on...*G* J

@kb673 Yep, that was an early impression on a young mind, always equated that with the 'rule of man', the rule of law is delusion. Observe the present Supreme Court as they ignore Stare Decisis for evidence of this.

If one makes choice to present political views in their music, they also need to accept the consequence of that decision. The vast majority of listeners likely cannot divorce their own political views from those presented in this music, I don't see a problem with this. The political message is integral to the artistic intention, I don't see how one can separate the message from the music. I presume many have this issue with all sorts of messages contained within music. Many here can't relate and/or accept entire genres of music based on various messages. Take rap or hip hop for instance, many write it off as an inferior form of music. I don't presume to know why any single individual has this perception, but I'd suggest for at least some race is an issue, for others it may simply be a problem with the messages being sent.

For myself, its difficult to relate to messages and stories  in any music that has virtually nothing in common with my life experiences. I can be curious or even empathic, but I mostly prefer music with messages I can relate to. Why should political messages be any different! Add in the provocative intent of the political message and this becomes even more difficult.

As expected, this topic has opened the door to self serving expressions of personal political biases. So, back to the OP:

The answer is, you can have both suggestions.  Acknowledge the political message in the music (any art) and remember that the message is an expression of the composer’s world view; no one else’s.

To ignore that fact is to have an incomplete view of the music. We, as listeners, can be educated; or, we can disagree with the message and still appreciate the artistic merit of the music. Seems inconceivable, for instance, to refuse to listen to Wagner and ignore its musical greatness, because we disagree with his twisted political views.

I generally prefer not to mix politics with music, and I will say it seems insane to punish Russian artists, particularly dead ones 🙄, for the acts of their dictatorial government.

I loved Jackson Browne until I unknowingly attended his concert/worldview monologues a few years back. (It was advertised as a concert) Not that I didn’t agree with some of his points, I just don’t consider him or most musicians, actors, talk show hosts, and audio enthusiasts a reliable source of information to base my views upon.

Politics and music don’t really mix very well as history has shown us time and time again.

I guess this is hardly surprising when you look at the average age of the typically radical musician. The older ones tend to know better than isolate half of their potential audience and tend to keep their views to themselves.

Growing up with the Beatles I was spared the political rhetoric that Lennon began to indulge in once he’d become infected by the dangerous, seemingly radical Ono malady.

His album Sometime in New York City particularly ruffled a few critical feathers (though no doubt it would be far better received today so much have things have seemingly changed).

Nevertheless I tended to side with my (possibly working class) hero.

At least I did until I grew up a little and began to form my own opinions.

By that time the seeming contradictions of Lennon singing ’Imagine no possessions’ whilst his viciously entrepreneurial champagne socialist wife was busy amassing a considerable fortune at his expense became less troublesome to me.

Lennon after all was still a young man himself and he was merely expressing an ideal - an ideal that was obviously beyond him also.

Imagine still remains a great song, and it still also remains an unobtainable ideal.

Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.

haha...you forgot to mention "politicians".....I'll take the 10 rock stars any day.

@larsman "why should an entertainer’s opinions on politics or anything else be worth less than the opinion of a computer programmer, a banker, a fireman"

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, people in e.g. entertainment often have inflated self worth, get away with breaking laws that most people could not get away with, and many times, want to impose their opinions on everyone else. Put simply: who would you want to e.g. be governed by: a group of 10 random rock stars, or e.g. carpenters, plumbers, etc. I’ll take the carpenters.

@scott22 + 1

@bdp24 - you forgot Kid Rock Old Man Pebble.... 

@bondmanp - why should an entertainer's opinions on politics or anything else be worth less than the opinion of a computer programmer, a banker, a fireman, you, or anybody else? 

Mozart was claimed as a “National Treasure” during the Third Reich.  Never mind the fact that he wasn’t German, or even Austrian (Salzburg was an independent Duchy when he was born).  So from 1933-45 no one was supposed to listen to Mozart?  I would have loved to see the Opera that he and Da Ponte would have written to lampoon Hitler

Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder also put out some great political songs.

"American Stooge" Mary Chapin Carpenter

IF you want a small laugh (perhaps needed after threads like this) checkout Johnny Cash: song, the one on the left is on the right.
 

The Who's "Join Together" also states:

"Do you really think I care What you eat or what you wear Won't you join together with the band There's a million ways to laugh Ev'ry one's a path"

But these were at a time when people were more sane, before politics invaded even medical journals...

As usual, many different opinions here.  As always when the topic is music, the form is so much larger than the locus of all of our musings.  Things to keep in mind:

Political and philosophical do not always mean the same thing.

Artists (and accountants) are people, not their profession.  A musician can have an informed opinion, and an accountant could be an ex-plumber that put herself through college with her hands.

Limiting your sphere of investigation places limits on yourself only.

Blanket statements are often used to cover the ignorance of the speaker.

If present-day Russia claims, for example, Tchaikovsky as a "national treasure", then under present circumstances it makes sense not to perform him at the moment. 

And what exactly would that achieve?

If present-day Russia claims, for example, Tchaikovsky as a "national treasure", then under present circumstances it makes sense not to perform him at the moment.  Nothing against Piotr, everything against his appropriation.  Perhaps though, a suitably contextualized performance of some Shostakovich might make the opposite point.

@bondmanp Looking to entertainers for serious thoughts on political issues is like asking your accountant how to fix your boiler. 

Quite so. 

Carefully worded to include all manner of superficial vox pop by artists (broadly defined), despite their disciples cringing enthusiasm over their relentless superficial dribble.

I try to separate the artists from the art.  Looking to entertainers for serious thoughts on political issues is like asking your accountant how to fix your boiler.  I have a little more trouble when the art itself is so political, and, of course in a way that I find personally objectionable, I might get to the point where I dismiss the artist and their repertoire entirely.  I have done so for a handful of artists.

Just off the top of my head, The American Ruse by MC5, really matched my perception of just about everything. I also very much identified with Respect Yourself, Staple Singers, I was very much an outlier in those days, alienated from both the 'system' and the 'social order'.

As for all the peace, love, togetherness songs of mid to late 60's through early 70's, those messages certainly haven't turned out to be salient or mindfully present for the children and adolescence of that era.  Turns out we boomers didn't really believe in those sentiments, only a dream world imagined by innocents. I get it with the "OK, Boomer" attitude of younger generation. Hippie Dream by Neil kinda gets to these sentiments.

I have always enjoyed "Wake Up Everybody" by Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes featuring Teddy Pendergrass. It contains an unexpected and seldom heard dig at the Beatles (who I also love) with the line "The world won't get no better if we just let it be." Remember, it's not politicians who change the world for the better, it's the people. Grass roots efforts ended Jim Crow, the Vietnam War, etc. and grass roots efforts can still work.

Surprised no one has mentioned Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young as a group or solo were very political while also making great music.

Sting whom I admire greatly wrote quite a few political tunes.

I typically prefer instrumentals as I can create my own story

in my tiny brain.

Regards,

barts

Artemus5,

“The 60's  movement was all about peace, love and ending wars. Yet since we, the baby boomers have grown and taken the roles of power, we have endless wars, violent riots and now the cancel culture where only one viewpoint is even allowed.”

As a  youth I marched to oppose the Vietnam War, and the songs of Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, The Jefferson Airplane, Country Joe, and Barry Maguire were very much the playlist of protest. Even then there were Young Republicans who counterprotested, shouting Love it or Leave It,  Cut your hair, Get a job, etc. The ‘60s Woodstock generation was not everywhere the same, and there were plenty of straight young people who would not have had to reject the pieties of the left in order to become the adult Neo-Cons who pushed our dear country into endless unwinnable wars of opportunity.  As for “violent protests”, they were a reaction to police murder of Black men and really were a new expression of the Civil Rights movement.  Their legitimate protest was commingled with property damage in some places, but overwhelmingly they were peaceful. Left “Cancel culture” is a regrettable campus  phenomenon and an abuse of Social media.  On the Right It is more widely practiced …ask Liz Cheney!  

Why does Florida’s Ron DeSantis promote laws banning public schools from teaching the role played in our Founding by the legacy of Slavery by labeling it “CRT”?  Why ban the discussion of current thinking on gender identity by falsely claiming educators are “grooming” students?  In the current highly siloed world of Red vs. Blue, Truth is the central victim..

the entire purpose of this thread is so obvious. Ray Charles could see through it.

Hating Russians for their government move is preposterous...

It is like hating americans because of Bush or any other president...

Cancelling Russian culture is beyond stupidity...

Politic and music are not separable, no more than in England for example Tallis or Byrd were understandable and the relation between their works in a comparison without the passage of Catholicism to Henry VIII protestantism...

All music is born from a sociological cultural context, which include politic in any era...

Why is this important?

Because all histories, economic,politic,artistic,musical,scientific etc reflect only one history together : the history of human consciousness itself...

Then the goal of each of us as student is to decipher the past layers of the unconscious in our own consciousness...

One of the best underestimated books i know among others for doing that is :

Jean Gebser " the ever present origin"...

A work beyond ordinary genius...

Or Egon Fridell : "the cultural history of the modern age"...

Or in the US : F.S.C. Northrop " the meeting of east and west"...

All underestimated flabbergasting opuses complementary of each other...

😁😊

Politics can be the inspiration for a lot of great music.  The Popular music realm—-a.k.a the Sixties—are well known to most forumites.  In Classical the High Romantic era and the rise of Nationalism gave rise to works such as Smetena Ma Vlast, Dvorak Slavonic Dances, many works by Tchaikovsky and the Russian Mighty Handful.  French, Mexicanand American Composers have had their Patrriotic outings.  All of this in addition to examples given by the OP and other posters here.

  Tchaikovsky was held to be in bad odor in Wales at the outbreak of the Russian incursion into Ukraine.  An orchestra in Wales canceled an evening of Slavonic Marche, Little Russian Symphony, and the 1812 Overture. (“Little Russia” is term that many Russians used to refer to Ukraine, and the Symphony is basically a riff on Ukrainian Folk Songs).  Piotr died around 1895, so I am not sure how he was supposed to anticipate Political Sensibilities 130 years in the Future, but there you have it