Kineticaudio...Is the store you purchased it from no help? Demo or not I would think it should not be behaving that way! I don't think a factory reset would hurt , I am no technician, but it seems there is something else going on. I hope you can get it up and running..it is a great player..I have retrained my ears to a non-tube sound and have really been appreciating the clarity that may have bit a bit too softened..This player has a sweetness that is not artificial. I hope you can get there.
Please help me figure out what I need to do this. My head spins with tech talk..
I am considering a sim audio moon cd transport 260dt to replace my beloved CD player that just died.I have a Plinius 9200 integrated. What do I need to make this combo work? Do I need a DAC?I get that transports are different from players but I just want to make sense of all of this in a simple way. thanks!
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My Primare CD35 Prisma is playing a CD for only a couple of seconds then stopping ? Also it's not letting me connect to internet or bluetooth? It's a demo unit from store. Do I have to reset it to factory settings:to clear these issues up ? Not finding much info on this player to get it to work properly !!! HELP !!! |
It’s been 2 weeks now that my Primare CD35 has been occupying the top shelf of my audio rack. The newest “family” member. It’s an understated beauty of minimalism. The remote is an unremarkable but well defined low profile black metal accessory. It looks dwarfed on my coffee table next to the Plinius remote, which, if it was hollow, could house a homeless family. The Cd35 has been calling to me. I was able to enjoy another long very alone time day today to dive right back in again.I was hoping the initial excitement wouldn’t wear off and I that I wouldn’t start nit-picking and analyzing. I was prepared to. After all,I really needed to know that beyond the $$$ , that this was going to make me happy long term. I can not tolerate mediocrity. I revisited a few of the Cd’s I played last week and I was happy to hear just what I remembered.. and so, with my new arsenal lined up to play, I sat in that sweet spot on my couch, and immersed myself into Dvorak’s New World, the beautiful , strong, crystalline smoothness.. and 50 minutes later I realized I had not thought once about the player.. it was the music…it was all about the music. I'm in love & the adoption is official. |
When my Balanced Audio Technology CDP was pronounced dead it was a time of mourning for me. It had signified my first serious venture into Audiophile Audio about 18 years ago. I had been lured into the land of Apogee speakers and wound up restoring a pair of Apogee Stages ( a tweeter replacement was my idea of fun!) I may have to sit Shiva when these break down. I was thrilled, as a female, to find kindred spirits who shared my passion of music and some hands-on. Of course It’s not that there are fewer women who share the love of music, but I do think fewer share the joy of gear. Once I bonded (literally) with the Apogee sound I realized my next step was to upgrade my midling amps & source. I decided Integrated was the way for me to go and auditioned several and then there was the Plinius which is like minimalist modern art and I started with the 8150,8200 and now the 9200. I had that hefty strong sound I love. Then CD players… I started with an Arcam touted as a good entry level. My mentor (a highly knowledgeable woman audiophile) said to me that I really needed tubes somewhere in my system. I happily lived with a Jolida JD100 for almost 2 years and engaged in the sport of tube rolling. As good as the Jolida was I knew it was lacking in overall depth, width and overall quality. Enter the B.A.T.. It was love at first hear. So when it was declared not repairable,Good memories and musically induced emotions flooded back. I need to create new ones now. So in a way there was an exorcism for this quest. I needed to realize nothing is indefinite & there may be more than 1 path to nirvana. That voice in my head that whispered “tubes” now had me concerened. Most tube players I fancied were also aged and I didn’t want to have to be in the same predicament in the near future. Lots of reading…lots of forum threads later I wound up with a loaner of a Primare CD22 from my dealer. I had not thought it would wind up with this course of events. As I stated in a previous post it sounded unassumingly good…2 generations earlier than the CD35 I just purchased. My logical mind had to assume (and hope) the generations were kind to the assets and enhamced them! With much intrepidation I ordered it and here it sat for 3 days of continual low level break in so that Sunday morning for my serious listen there would be few excuses. (My initial quick turn on hinted at some brashness). As I’m sure everyone does , I have my reference CD’s. Some not necessarily my go-to listens but great litmus test. I always start out with some solo piano..Windham hill has some dandies…some Clara Ponty.. The piano must have realness…no clunkety-clunk..no tinnyness…yes,,,it sounds glorious …clear yet rich and round…I’m encouraged… Next I played some female vocals…Who doesn’t have Eva Cassidy as a must-have? Tears? oh- yes…and throw in a sprinkling of Baez…mmmm… Next is violins…the deal-breaker…if one note dares make me wince it’s a goner…I put on Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg/Minnesota orchestra/Brahms concerto in D..(A side note..I saw her in concert and any classical lovers, she is a must experience..). The CD35 sang the most beautiful rich textured violin tone…nothing shrieking and all with the bow’s varying weight…I was relieved and nearing my judgement.. One test left…full orchestra of many sorts… Appalachian Spring/Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia orchestra). is my go-to for “light” orchestra. It has subtle nuances that I am so familiar with after hundreds of listens..and it is here that perhaps I can fully evaluate and appreciate the qualities and differences between this unit and the tube sound I have ingrained in my brain on strings en masse.. the quiet moments are gorgeous..with puctuations more cleary defined than with the B.A.T…every instrument is clearly heard in it’s place on it’s stage..and as I mentioned before , the 2 triangle taps at the end of this piece..a Copeland masterpiece of less is more..the cd35 let them sparkle as they should.. Next up is Pictures at an Exhibition..the horns at forefront..once again, clarity is not creating any kind of shrillness..each horn is creating it’s own place,,the french horn is the mellow fellow…The musicality is effortless…I expected stiffness,,,a preconceived thought, but the flow is quite stunning… the final movement is regal and playful and ever so musical.. And finally full blown massive orchestra…I wanted to hear soundstage and any confusion..I am always willing to adjust my speaker toe-in …even 1/8” makes for a hit or miss…sometimes I need to sacrifice wide for better imaging.. And finally Tchaikovsky Piano concerto #2…a good blend of piano and massive symphony… The piano was center stage and tonally on point…full orchestra sounded clean and bold, and, well..massive! It is here that I can compare the tube sound of the BAT to the cd35 sound..the BAT was like a beautiful watercolor painting…expertly expressed with slightly soft yet not blurred edges.. the Primare is more crystalline like an acrylic painting..slightly more opaque yet equally beautiful. I know every piece of equipment is part of a symbionic relationship..I am sure the player is enhanced by my sweet sounding speakers and warm Plinius amp. The mesh with my system seems just right and is already creating some goosebump inducing moments. And that’s my goal. I am giving this a wholehearted swoon. |
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I just shocked myself...I realized I had a hard time pulling myself away from this Primare CD22 loaner... that always a good sign...I did it...my dealer just ordered me a brand spanking new Primare CD35...I'm excited and nervous all at the same time..I suspect much like having a "first" date after being married for so many years then divorced ..I may just love it! |
@abstract I wish I had had an opportunity to. But Primare doesn't have a large dealer base, with nothing close at hand. Also, their repair network seemed dependent on one individual. Whereas I've had excellent support, above and beyond, for many years with Bryston. I suspect the CD35 and the BCD-3 sound more alike than different. And yes, I know what you mean. It was those early DDD recordings done by Deutsche Gramophon of massed violins that sent me, ears bleeding, for a number of years into the arms of class A, single ended, triode tubes. But not any more. |
twoleftyears...Ah yes...I see....I guess I was not wondering if the improvement was huge from model to model as much as if the present new models are improved more for their symbionic relationship to their companion Dac or in their own right. As much as I know a tube CDP would most likely be my sonic bliss (and that AMR is calling me) I am now fearing buying used of that age... (the BAT feels like a death in my family)...I am pleasantly surprised with my listening experience of this loaner Primare cd22...The sonics are wonderful..I have thrown everything at it today... solo piano is clean and warm, acoustic guitar is lifelike, female vocals are rich. Orchestral:I was worried about the violins..I always worry about the violins....but yes! They sounded mighty fine...phew! and basically the small orchestral pieces all had a very inviting timbre..and sounded like the instruments they ae (the only exception was the 2 taps of a triangle at the end of Appalachian Spring..I used to get goosebumps from that..could 2 triangle taps be my dealbreaker?)Large orchestral was tonally very pleasing ...slightly anaemic and slightly less grandiose than my BAT). Twoleftears: Did you listen to the CD35? |
@abstract The yearly "advances" in DACs often involve more specmanship than real electronics. For daily driving, how much better is a 2019 car over the same 2018 model? Before purchasing the Bryston BCD-3, I eliminated the Hegel Mohican, leaving that new model of Primare as the chief competitor. If you have more CDs than you know what to do with, are committed to Red Book, there are distinct advantages to "integrated" players. The transport and the DAC both make a difference, as do their implementation. Googling you can find specs on both the Bryston and the Primare, who used different manufacturers for transports (both good) and for chips in the DACs (both good). Finally, both makers will have implemented them differently. Supposedly, different chips have different sonic characteristics, but it ends up being much more complicated than that. |
Well after the audio shop's technician located a transport for my B.A,T and installed..it still cut out so there was more than the transport gone bad..and Balanced audio confirmed because this was a very early unit,any other parts would be wild goose chase.R.I.P. my dear B.A.T.Meanwhile, this dealer gave me a loaner- A Primare CD22. For nearly 12 years The B.A.T. was the sound I knew..tube/lush soft, no hard edges..maybe unnaturally rounded? but I preferred that over the edge I heard from some other CDP's I listened to way back then. The sound was ingrained into my brain and that makes for a challenge to not hear "different" as "wrong".So listening to this was not likely to consider it as my next purchase, it was mostly so I wouldn't be without music. I'm having a grand time testing out my reference Cd's...and to my surprise I have found a few things..A different sound for sure...I actually find it refreshingly clear on my solo piano & female vocals...very similar to the tube sound in tone but kind of like menthol ...pleasing and realistic...The soundstage is a bit more narrow but for these types it is a minor thing..The litmus test will be tomorrow when I try my symphonic /orchestral pieces that I demand what I had before...deep & wide soundstage, accurate placement of instruments and most importantlyrealistic reproduction of each instrument...a screechy violin in the mix and bye bye forever.As I said I wasn't thinking Primare, but this cd22 sounds pretty damn good so far.. Let's say orchestral sounds divine...and I can assume the newer generation, cd35, (with or without DAC), sounds even better..Here's my question...:Primare and all CDP's, if everything is so geared towards digital, do you think the stand alone CD part of the equation is as advanced ? Or is all the good stuff in the DAC? I hope someone understands what I'm asking! :) |
The streaming transport is still a VITAL part of the streaming chain and not addressing that aspect is a surefire way to get bad sound. You also can't simply get a NAS and DAC and have sound - you NEED that streamer. Some DAC's are Roon endpoints but then they are more streaming devices with built-in DAC's. Either way, both a streamer and a cd transport qualify as transports. While I agree that a CD transport has the potential to create issues, you still have the price points to contend with. By the time you can actually achieve the sound quality that AMR CD-77 puts out, you'll easily surpass that seller's used price and probably be closer to the retail price. I know my streaming 'package' is above five figures once you factor in my networked music, and I don't consider that to be really high end either. I will also admit that my fears have been that the software used might have a lot of bad influence on streaming devices. My point here is that theory vs. reality often produce different results and I've learned never to hold onto either one of them too hard. In each case there can be factors completely missed that change expectations tremendously. This is why I presented my experiences as such and have support from others whose ears I trust. I believe the theory that a file should be superior than a CD track, but for some reason that theory doesn't line up with my reality yet. Reality beat theory when I showed at RMAF. I ended up having to use a CD transport 90% of the time because of the sonic differences, all other things being equal. The streamer and Cd transport were of similar build quality from the same company using the same cabling. I even paid about $300 extra for ancillary items/installation to ensure my streamer worked in the room and I begrudgingly had to all but give it up. This was not an isolated event either. I am not here to ruffle feathers and would appreciate not being insinuated as a bold faced liar. My intent in this thread is to share my experiences and help the OP find a solution that fits HER needs and desires first and foremost. She has been provided a lot of food for thought and I hope she settles on what provides the best experience for her. With sincerity, Skip |
I am actually glad I had a reason to engage in some conversation & advice about this that is such a passion for me..As a woman it's not that common to find comeraderie..It's been awhile that I have discovered what's going on "out there"..and the changes since I put together my system.. Thank you, everyone! Although I am dizzied by too techy details, I do like to tinker..and I do enjoy a journey..and I especially enjoy finding a temporary "end.."Love of music is a singular activity in most ways yet sharing thoughts with kindred spirits is not that easy except in this kind of venue.. I plan on doing some serious reading about the sonic virtues of transport vs ripped/and or streaming. I will need to do some demo/listening to be convinced ...I do know that I could never totally give up my CD's..each one has it's own story and emotional memory.it's an attachment I can't imagine I would have with my computer based repertoire...(and that AMR CD-777 sure does look yummy)..Maybe I can tip-toe into the future and meanwhile still have the goosebumps I demand.. |
sbank Also in a few years, CD will probably be entirely dead from new music availability perspective.Some said that about the LP, too, but it didn’t happen. Some said that about reel-to-reel, too, but it didn’t happen. And I hear that some are making new prerecorded cassettes again. CD is going to be around for a long time, I suspect. |
With all due respect, many posts here give very short-sighted advice which might address the original question re: CD player, but not the big picture. OTOH, @mahler123 , @@2psyop glennewdick , and @2psyop point you to a better direction for long term enjoyment of classical music in particular. SACDs and downloads of highrez SACD-equivalent files offer many opportunities to improve the sound quality of your favorite classical recordings and will continue to do so. Ripping your CDs can be done using your computer's drive, saved to a network drive(i.e. NAS) and you can do that WHILE you are listening to other music so it doesn't have to eat into your precious listening time. The post implying sound via a transport is superior in dynamics etc. to via playing a ripped file is FLAT OUT INCORRECT. The opposite is true and has been explained in detail in hundreds of posts here & more deeply on computeraudiophile. Spinning mechanical drives directly attached to your audio rig have numerous disadvantages vs. playing same files from a NAS in another room via ethernet (or even wifi) to the same dac. Invest in a good dac and a NAS. You can get a used Marantz etc. SACD player to spin CDs for the short term and rip them as time allows to the NAS. If you buy music, highrez downloads of SACD-equivalents they will often, but not always sound better than playing discs of the same. Ironically, red book CDs sometimes sound better...it's all about the provenance of the recording...read reviews by listeners when possible. I can tell you that there are certainly amazing quality Mahler high rez recordings that trounce the CDs. Also in a few years, CD will probably be entirely dead from new music availability perspective. Cheers, Spencer |
That is my experience. The margin is VERY slight but noticeable. Over the years the delta has shrunk considerably and I imagine in a few more years it will be an even playing field in the majority of applications. For me, even as a dealer where every bit counts, I find streaming to be a better fit as the convenience is off the charts. Streaming provides such a seamless integration to your music and changes the entire way you listen. Having TIDAL on tap has not only allowed me to experience all the music I love (Tool excluded since they are not on there), but it has also introduced me to so much more music that have become personal favorites. TIDAL has become an integral tool for me as a listener and as a dealer. Also for me, my personal collection of music does not sound as good as TIDAL, so there might be more to do to maximize this option that I am not doing. However, for the intents of the first paragraph, the comparison was done with a CD transport vs. a streamer of the same brand/quality, same cables, and matched volume. The streamer used TIDAL via ROON, not locally stored music. |
audiothesis..."Also, while I am a believer in streaming and do it 99% of the time, there still is a small performance difference between a streamer and a CD transport, where the transport just has more dynamics. I've had several people confirm this and I've experienced it myself"Are you saying that in actuality you think streaming could be considered sonically less dynamic and therefore less musical?Is the whole advantage of going digital just relieving clutter? |
The OP is using an integrated so in order to get tubes into a preamp stage she will need a completely new approach to what she already had. Also, while I am a believer in streaming and do it 99% of the time, there still is a small performance difference between a streamer and a CD transport, where the transport just has more dynamics. I've had several people confirm this and I've experienced it myself. I can also guarantee you that besting that AMR with a transport + DAC for the same money will be an almost impossible feat. Even streaming you have to have a good transport in front to make it work with some excellent cables in between. |
Go with a DAC, the spinning stuff is probably what caused the 'died' as that's a mechanical contraption. Rip or get bits as source material - that's the source future anyway. So many excellent DACs under a couple of grand. Easy to decide. Go simple and do all the sonic work in the preamp with shortest possible cables. Don't worry about tubes in the DAC, too much noise in there anyway... seriously you'll waste $$$. Super-simple R2R vintage PHILIPs DACs still sound the best musically - if you need processing of formats, do that ahead of time in your computer. |
I really do think tubes have to be somewhere in this chain for me..I remember when I first started out in search..I went through many solid state cdp’s that left either ho-hum or near agitation...then my Jolida JD100 had me thinking I was on the right path..then the BAT flew in and it was like puppy dog tail wags and rainbows...and a Beethoven symphony brought tears of joy.. |
I've had a few AMR CD-777 and they are fantastic - some of the best CD players I've heard. I recommended that one because I think not only will the performance meet your expectations but so will the infusion of the tube and what it brings to the table. I fear without a tube in the source you might be chasing gear for a while to be content. |
If you are considering 2.5 to 3k possible to spend on a cdp, this one could also be setting you up for life https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gryphon-Adagio-CD-Player-with-box-remote-and-manual/132766285909?ssPageName... |
Nekoaudio..yes...I know reviews can never substitute hands on...when I assembled my system I went through many hours /days/weeks listening..I enjoyed that high when i hit that slice of nirvana..Mahler: I am not counting out a SACD capable CDP...I have upwards of 800 classical CD's ..it's a couple of lifetimes of relistening that I plan to re-start... 2psyop: I get it, I really do..that I may be not taking advantage of new technology..There's partially a practical reason: I work 6 days a week and to find the gear , (that's the fun part that I am up for), but what sounds like time consuming process of transferring my CD collection sounds like eating up precious listening time... audiothesis: that AMR could be a wow... I need to make sure I same or better my nirvana... |
Perhaps this could be your end game: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649456868-amr-cd77-reference-cd-player-one-of-the-best/ It isn't cheap, but it wasn't cheap to begin with. |
+1 on glennewdick comments. I ripped all my CDs onto a HDD and use a streaming device for Tidal and Spotify. That enabled me to keep all my bought music and explore all the new music Spotify and Tidal have to offer. I may even buy a year membership to Roon. I did this with less than $1000. I have my Macbook Pro for a ripping device, bought a Western Digital MyCloud with plenty of storage and use a Bluesound Node 2 for streaming and access. The Vault 2 can do ALL OF THIS, but there are other options. Although I like my two CD players, I don’t trust them as they are older now. Investing in an expensive CD player seems very limiting to me. The very biggest surprise in my journey is how good MQA albums sound on Tidal! Just an added bonus. I hope? Tidal does not fold and go out of business?!? |
Audiothesis: |
OP i listen to Classical Music exclusively so perhaps my input may be helpful. As others have explained here, yes you need a separate DAC? Are you sure, however, that you don’t want to listen to SACDs and/or Blu Rays? When I last looked, there were over 2500 classical titles on SACD, and several hundred Blu Rays. I own well over a 100 SACDs, on labels such as Pentatone, Channel Classics, MDG, the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra House Label, the Chicago Symphony House Label, and others. Most SACDs sound better, both in 2 channel and in Multichannel, than Redbook CDs. I bought a Bryston BDA-3 DAC because it will accept the DSD from SACDs over HDMI from my transport. I know that you didn’t care for Bryston before and I get what you are saying but I wouldn’t describe the DAC as sounding like that. The Bryston also sounds excellent with Red Book and Computer Audio. I would seriously consider a one box player that can play SACDs as well. Marantz still makes some and you might like the Marantz house sound, which tends to be warming. Onkyo is rumored to be coming out with a Universal Player and there are others at a variety of price points |
Hey abstract, what is the rest of the system? I am a dealer and do have a demo North Star Blue Diamond available but I’m not sure it will fit the system and your taste. I have a feeling the old player was adding a lot to help the Plinius give you that lush sound. For on the cheap the older Jolida JD100 gets consistent praise. |
@abstract if you are considering a different product then you really need to listen to them before purchasing. You may read online or in a review that X sounds like A,B, and C but find out it really doesn't sound like that by your definition when you hear it yourself. If you can't find a local dealer or a local person selling something used that you're interested in, maybe ask the manufacturer or non-local dealer about a free trial period. We do that for some of the stuff we carry, and I know there are others who do that as well. |
I would like to add something. your at the cross roads here, you need a new CD player. Tthis is dead or soon too be dead tech, at this point you should seriously consider moving away from spinning cd’s and go with one of the many storage-server-NAS-all in one devices. With the kind of budget your talking you can get a top sounding DAC and a Streamer network assessing player or get something like the Bluesound vault2 or Aurender players they take all your cd’s and store then internally and can stream- network access. This is a better way to spend your money in my opinion as CD player prices in the used market will crash sooner then not as everyone moves to a digital storage system of one type or another. This will also allow you to upgrade DAC's as you like. one thing to remember digital storage has no moving parts that wear out so potentially longer life expectancy. |
DJones..thanks for that tip...I would have to make sure that unit has had a transport replacement..it seems all the VK-d5's suffer from that ailment(this would be the 2nd for mine)..Audiogenr./.understood that you are a dealer..no matter..kindred spirit at any rate..2leftears:Years ago I auditioned a Bryston in my system..I didn't care for it at all...seemed harsh to my ears... but yes...I really just want redbook Cd listening...I have an emotional attachment to my extensive classical music cd collection..Just based on reviews it seemed these simaudio players might be something I would like..but now I see that this transport/Dac is the norm..and there seem to be few CD Players produced..I see Naim has a current CD player.. I'm in a quandry.I have no objection to buying used...all my gear has always been..but I also don't want to buy anything too old... My main objective ,as Nekoaudio said, is the sound that I love from my BAT..Something different would be fun but I really love being in love.. |
@abstract Please just be aware that Audiogon members include manufacturers and retail dealers who are free to post in threads without identifying themselves as such. They are familiar to regular posters here. You must have arrived at Sim Moon by some process of elimination. They are a very good and reliable company, who will stand behind their products. Another Canadian company with a similar reputation is Bryston, who also make a stand-alone single box CD player. There are more still out there than you might imagine. If you're only interested in Red Book CD, it eliminates one extra box and the vagaries of connecting the two boxes with a cable, at which point people will immediately tell you you need a better cable. |
@abstract from your last description it sounds like what's most important is that you get a replacement DAC that satisfies the sound you're looking for coming from the BAT VK-D5. A DAC will have digital inputs allowing you to use an inexpensive CD transport in the short-term, maybe even your computer if it has digital audio output and a CD drive, but get good sounding music immediately. Whereas if you focus on researching transports, you will have something to stick CDs into but won't hear any music, or will be using the DAC included with the transport which may not sound good to you. djones51's recommendation to purchase a VK-D5SE might be your safest and quickest bet, if you can't get a replacement drive for your existing unit. It may also be worth it to consider repairing your VK-D5 with a replacement drive that isn't the exact same as the original. There's no reason to think it wouldn't sound just as good, as long as a reliable high-quality drive is put in. |
You would get better performance with an Oppo followed by a Synchro-Mesh reclocker and a good BNC cable into a DAC. 7psec of jitter at the end of the cable. Jitter is all that matters in a transport and no transport delivers jitter this low. If you want to save money, then consider a CD player, not a transport. Simaudio, Bryston and PSaudio are all decent choices. Steve N. |
Yes,originally I was looking at the 260Dt..the transport only..that was before I realized the whole world of audio had changed as far as CD players since my last purchase and that it was just a transport..and that I would need a DAC..so that would mean the 260D... which then put me into a whole other pricepoint...$3,000 which I am not sure I want to do..If I knew for sure it was my forever sound player I would eat P,B & J for sonic bliss, but I can't know that for sure until I live with it. My standards are high..I am coming off a CD player I adore(d)..a BAT vk-d5 which even after all this time and age I would still keep..a lush tube sound, but the transport needs replacing & the technician told me that it's possible that the factory that produced the transports was demolished by a tsunami.So I need that confirmation then act fast.I can't survive long without music. I don't care much about HOW it works as well as how WELL(beautifully) it works.(I think that's a female thing) |
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I think we really need some more information from the OP to make better recommendations for them Budget? Why pick the Moon 260dt? Great deal they have found somewhere? With a price difference of $1000 between 260dt and 260d, you can get a darned good DAC and digital ic and still have some dollars left. However on the flip side there are some mighty fine machines out there in that price range of which the Moon may well not be the best at all. So please let us know the answers so we can help you further. |
