Please help me figure out what I need to do this. My head spins with tech talk..
I am considering a sim audio moon cd transport 260dt to replace my beloved CD player that just died.I have a Plinius 9200 integrated. What do I need to make this combo work? Do I need a DAC?I get that transports are different from players but I just want to make sense of all of this in a simple way. thanks!
A CD player has 2 basic components/functions. It is a Transport (spinner) and a DAC (converts the digital bits read by the transport into an analog signal that can be input'd to your integrated amp.).
If you buy the Moon CD Transport, you will need a DAC to convert the digital output of the transport into an analog signal that can be sent via an analog interconnect cable to your integrated amplifier.
I can't find immediately the 260dt model you refer to, but I presume this is the 260D CD Transport with optional DAC. As the name implies, this is something of a rare beast, in that the single box can be had either purely as a transport OR as a player (transport+DAC), thus obviating the need for a second box.
ah...thank you both...reubent & twoleftears..Yes..that 260D is the model I am considering..I see that newer models of my integrated amp and (others) now have a DAC as part of their spec but mine now is before this new age...I plan to strictly listen to my CD's..not computer stream..so it looks like if I stick with this Moon I will need to get the Transport/DAC combo..(or upgrade to a more current Plinius integrated)..correct? (now I am just thinking outloud and hoping you are listening...thank you!
@abstract; IMO your Plinius 9200 is a very nice integrated unit that you should keep, built like a tank and can drive any speaker. If you want to save space purchase a CDP (transport and DAC in one unit), there are many really good ones available new or used. There is nothing wrong with the Moon 260D although I have not researched the DAC that it has and possibly a different Transport and separate DAC would sound better, however not necessary.
If you like the Plinius and are set on getting the Moon 260Dt transport ( I assume because you have found one at a very fair price) then all you would need to do to play via the Plinius is a very simple DAC.
Now if go this route you would need ensure the DAC you buy has the same input that the Moon has output, ie, spdif, toslink or aes/ebu.
Some of the cheaper DAC units are really meant for computer audio and come with just a Usb input which would not work for you.
Still I think there are plenty of sub $300 units that would work. A lot less than replacing the Plinius just to get a taste of transport to DAC to amp.
If you want recommendations for good low price DAC there will be no shortage of willing volunteers of information here. Good luck
I am not sure which cd player you're looking at the Moon 260D comes with the DAC the Moon 260Dt is the transport section only. If you have priced the 260D then you're good to go.
Correcting my mis-type..it was the 260DT that I was originally referring to..the transport only...I definitely want to keep my Plinius integrated ..so I guess I need to get the 260 DT and a good compatible DAC of which I will definitely need suggestions for, Get the 260 D, (will my 9200 plinius have the correct inputs???),or look for a CD player only which seems to be slim pickings. I do find these journeys to be fun and hopefully ultimately satisfying. Thanks for your help!
If you got the 260d as opposed to 260dt you would be all set already, just plug and play with some half decent interconnect and you are good to go. Depending on price difference between the 260d and dt that may be your best option. Lets say you got 260dt and a dac and you do not like the sound, now you ask yourself, well was it the transport, the dac the interconnect etc etc. Of course you still might not like the sound of the 260d but at least you eliminated one element.
I have seen the 260D listed for $3000 and the 260Dt for $2000 not sure what you wanted to spend you gave no indication. The 260D has both xlr and rca out so it should connect to your integrated. Prices of cd players with dacs are all over the place. You just need to make sure whatever you get has a dac which most players listed as cd players do. This simaudio Moon is a bit confusing how they market it, I assume the little t means transport only. If it is listed as a cd transport you need to get a seperate dac to go with it.
Yes,originally I was looking at the 260Dt..the transport only..that was before I realized the whole world of audio had changed as far as CD players since my last purchase and that it was just a transport..and that I would need a DAC..so that would mean the 260D... which then put me into a whole other pricepoint...$3,000 which I am not sure I want to do..If I knew for sure it was my forever sound player I would eat P,B & J for sonic bliss, but I can't know that for sure until I live with it. My standards are high..I am coming off a CD player I adore(d)..a BAT vk-d5 which even after all this time and age I would still keep..a lush tube sound, but the transport needs replacing & the technician told me that it's possible that the factory that produced the transports was demolished by a tsunami.So I need that confirmation then act fast.I can't survive long without music. I don't care much about HOW it works as well as how WELL(beautifully) it works.(I think that's a female thing)
If you want to buy used the music room has a BAT vk-D5SE 8 years old with a 24 bit upgrade for $2000, might could trade some old componet you no longer use or try to negotiate with them.
You would get better performance with an Oppo followed by a Synchro-Mesh reclocker and a good BNC cable into a DAC. 7psec of jitter at the end of the cable. Jitter is all that matters in a transport and no transport delivers jitter this low.
If you want to save money, then consider a CD player, not a transport. Simaudio, Bryston and PSaudio are all decent choices.
@abstract from your last description it sounds like what's most important is that you get a replacement DAC that satisfies the sound you're looking for coming from the BAT VK-D5.
A DAC will have digital inputs allowing you to use an inexpensive CD transport in the short-term, maybe even your computer if it has digital audio output and a CD drive, but get good sounding music immediately. Whereas if you focus on researching transports, you will have something to stick CDs into but won't hear any music, or will be using the DAC included with the transport which may not sound good to you.
djones51's recommendation to purchase a VK-D5SE might be your safest and quickest bet, if you can't get a replacement drive for your existing unit.
It may also be worth it to consider repairing your VK-D5 with a replacement drive that isn't the exact same as the original. There's no reason to think it wouldn't sound just as good, as long as a reliable high-quality drive is put in.
@abstract Please just be aware that Audiogon members include manufacturers and retail dealers who are free to post in threads without identifying themselves as such. They are familiar to regular posters here.
You must have arrived at Sim Moon by some process of elimination. They are a very good and reliable company, who will stand behind their products. Another Canadian company with a similar reputation is Bryston, who also make a stand-alone single box CD player. There are more still out there than you might imagine. If you're only interested in Red Book CD, it eliminates one extra box and the vagaries of connecting the two boxes with a cable, at which point people will immediately tell you you need a better cable.
@abstract Please just be aware that Audiogon members include manufacturers and retail dealers who are free to post in threads without identifying themselves as such. They are familiar to regular posters here.
DJones..thanks for that tip...I would have to make sure that unit has had a transport replacement..it seems all the VK-d5's suffer from that ailment(this would be the 2nd for mine)..Audiogenr./.understood that you are a dealer..no matter..kindred spirit at any rate..2leftears:Years ago I auditioned a Bryston in my system..I didn't care for it at all...seemed harsh to my ears... but yes...I really just want redbook Cd listening...I have an emotional attachment to my extensive classical music cd collection..Just based on reviews it seemed these simaudio players might be something I would like..but now I see that this transport/Dac is the norm..and there seem to be few CD Players produced..I see Naim has a current CD player.. I'm in a quandry.I have no objection to buying used...all my gear has always been..but I also don't want to buy anything too old... My main objective ,as Nekoaudio said, is the sound that I love from my BAT..Something different would be fun but I really love being in love..
I would like to add something. your at the cross roads here, you need a new CD player. Tthis is dead or soon too be dead tech, at this point you should seriously consider moving away from spinning cd’s and go with one of the many storage-server-NAS-all in one devices. With the kind of budget your talking you can get a top sounding DAC and a Streamer network assessing player or get something like the Bluesound vault2 or Aurender players they take all your cd’s and store then internally and can stream- network access. This is a better way to spend your money in my opinion as CD player prices in the used market will crash sooner then not as everyone moves to a digital storage system of one type or another. This will also allow you to upgrade DAC's as you like. one thing to remember digital storage has no moving parts that wear out so potentially longer life expectancy.
@abstract if you are considering a different product then you really need to listen to them before purchasing. You may read online or in a review that X sounds like A,B, and C but find out it really doesn't sound like that by your definition when you hear it yourself.
If you can't find a local dealer or a local person selling something used that you're interested in, maybe ask the manufacturer or non-local dealer about a free trial period. We do that for some of the stuff we carry, and I know there are others who do that as well.
Hey abstract, what is the rest of the system? I am a dealer and do have a demo North Star Blue Diamond available but I’m not sure it will fit the system and your taste. I have a feeling the old player was adding a lot to help the Plinius give you that lush sound.
For on the cheap the older Jolida JD100 gets consistent praise.
i listen to Classical Music exclusively so perhaps my input may be helpful. As others have explained here, yes you need a separate DAC? Are you sure, however, that you don’t want to listen to SACDs and/or Blu Rays? When I last looked, there were over 2500 classical titles on SACD, and several hundred Blu Rays. I own well over a 100 SACDs, on labels such as Pentatone, Channel Classics, MDG, the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra House Label, the Chicago Symphony House Label, and others. Most SACDs sound better, both in 2 channel and in Multichannel, than Redbook CDs. I bought a Bryston BDA-3 DAC because it will accept the DSD from SACDs over HDMI from my transport. I know that you didn’t care for Bryston before and I get what you are saying but I wouldn’t describe the DAC as sounding like that. The Bryston also sounds excellent with Red Book and Computer Audio. I would seriously consider a one box player that can play SACDs as well. Marantz still makes some and you might like the Marantz house sound, which tends to be warming. Onkyo is rumored to be coming out with a Universal Player and there are others at a variety of price points
Audiothesis: My system is The Plinius 9200 integrated which I felt added some crispness and richness and clarity to my lush tube sound of my BAT VK-D5. My speakers are Apogees Stages that are like my first born. I refurbished them & resurrected them from the dead. I dread the day the bass panels atrophe as that will be the end of the line. After a few Arcam CD players the Jolida JD100 was my first foray into tubes maybe 12 years ago...and then after trying a few others my aha moment was with the BAT.
+1 on glennewdick comments. I ripped all my CDs onto a HDD and use a streaming device for Tidal and Spotify. That enabled me to keep all my bought music and explore all the new music Spotify and Tidal have to offer. I may even buy a year membership to Roon. I did this with less than $1000. I have my Macbook Pro for a ripping device, bought a Western Digital MyCloud with plenty of storage and use a Bluesound Node 2 for streaming and access. The Vault 2 can do ALL OF THIS, but there are other options. Although I like my two CD players, I don’t trust them as they are older now. Investing in an expensive CD player seems very limiting to me. The very biggest surprise in my journey is how good MQA albums sound on Tidal! Just an added bonus. I hope? Tidal does not fold and go out of business?!?
Nekoaudio..yes...I know reviews can never substitute hands on...when I assembled my system I went through many hours /days/weeks listening..I enjoyed that high when i hit that slice of nirvana..Mahler: I am not counting out a SACD capable CDP...I have upwards of 800 classical CD's ..it's a couple of lifetimes of relistening that I plan to re-start... 2psyop: I get it, I really do..that I may be not taking advantage of new technology..There's partially a practical reason: I work 6 days a week and to find the gear , (that's the fun part that I am up for), but what sounds like time consuming process of transferring my CD collection sounds like eating up precious listening time... audiothesis: that AMR could be a wow... I need to make sure I same or better my nirvana...
I've had a few AMR CD-777 and they are fantastic - some of the best CD players I've heard. I recommended that one because I think not only will the performance meet your expectations but so will the infusion of the tube and what it brings to the table.
I fear without a tube in the source you might be chasing gear for a while to be content.
I really do think tubes have to be somewhere in this chain for me..I remember when I first started out in search..I went through many solid state cdp’s that left either ho-hum or near agitation...then my Jolida JD100 had me thinking I was on the right path..then the BAT flew in and it was like puppy dog tail wags and rainbows...and a Beethoven symphony brought tears of joy..
Go with a DAC, the spinning stuff is probably what caused the 'died' as that's a mechanical contraption. Rip or get bits as source material - that's the source future anyway.
So many excellent DACs under a couple of grand. Easy to decide. Go simple and do all the sonic work in the preamp with shortest possible cables. Don't worry about tubes in the DAC, too much noise in there anyway... seriously you'll waste $$$.
Super-simple R2R vintage PHILIPs DACs still sound the best musically - if you need processing of formats, do that ahead of time in your computer.
The OP is using an integrated so in order to get tubes into a preamp stage she will need a completely new approach to what she already had. Also, while I am a believer in streaming and do it 99% of the time, there still is a small performance difference between a streamer and a CD transport, where the transport just has more dynamics. I've had several people confirm this and I've experienced it myself.
I can also guarantee you that besting that AMR with a transport + DAC for the same money will be an almost impossible feat. Even streaming you have to have a good transport in front to make it work with some excellent cables in between.
"Also, while I am a believer in streaming and do it 99% of the time, there still is a small performance difference between a streamer and a CD transport, where the transport just has more dynamics. I've had several people confirm this and I've experienced it myself"Are you saying that in actuality you think streaming could be considered sonically less dynamic and therefore less musical?Is the whole advantage of going digital just relieving clutter?
That is my experience. The margin is VERY slight but noticeable. Over the years the delta has shrunk considerably and I imagine in a few more years it will be an even playing field in the majority of applications. For me, even as a dealer where every bit counts, I find streaming to be a better fit as the convenience is off the charts.
Streaming provides such a seamless integration to your music and changes the entire way you listen. Having TIDAL on tap has not only allowed me to experience all the music I love (Tool excluded since they are not on there), but it has also introduced me to so much more music that have become personal favorites. TIDAL has become an integral tool for me as a listener and as a dealer.
Also for me, my personal collection of music does not sound as good as TIDAL, so there might be more to do to maximize this option that I am not doing. However, for the intents of the first paragraph, the comparison was done with a CD transport vs. a streamer of the same brand/quality, same cables, and matched volume. The streamer used TIDAL via ROON, not locally stored music.
With all due respect, many posts here give very short-sighted advice which might address the original question re: CD player, but not the big picture. OTOH, @mahler123 , @@2psyop glennewdick , and @2psyop point you to a better direction for long term enjoyment of classical music in particular. SACDs and downloads of highrez SACD-equivalent files offer many opportunities to improve the sound quality of your favorite classical recordings and will continue to do so. Ripping your CDs can be done using your computer's drive, saved to a network drive(i.e. NAS) and you can do that WHILE you are listening to other music so it doesn't have to eat into your precious listening time.
The post implying sound via a transport is superior in dynamics etc. to via playing a ripped file is FLAT OUT INCORRECT. The opposite is true and has been explained in detail in hundreds of posts here & more deeply on computeraudiophile. Spinning mechanical drives directly attached to your audio rig have numerous disadvantages vs. playing same files from a NAS in another room via ethernet (or even wifi) to the same dac. Invest in a good dac and a NAS. You can get a used Marantz etc. SACD player to spin CDs for the short term and rip them as time allows to the NAS. If you buy music, highrez downloads of SACD-equivalents they will often, but not always sound better than playing discs of the same. Ironically, red book CDs sometimes sound better...it's all about the provenance of the recording...read reviews by listeners when possible. I can tell you that there are certainly amazing quality Mahler high rez recordings that trounce the CDs. Also in a few years, CD will probably be entirely dead from new music availability perspective. Cheers, Spencer
Also in a few years, CD will probably be entirely dead from new music availability perspective.
Some said that about the LP, too, but it didn’t happen. Some said that about reel-to-reel, too, but it didn’t happen. And I hear that some are making new prerecorded cassettes again. CD is going to be around for a long time, I suspect.
I would look at the higher end Yamaha and Denon, they play SACDs too, also Marantz are said to be good, or a cheaper player with digital output into a new Wadia Di322 that also has a great headphone out, endless options out there. Good luck.
I am actually glad I had a reason to engage in some conversation & advice about this that is such a passion for me..As a woman it's not that common to find comeraderie..It's been awhile that I have discovered what's going on "out there"..and the changes since I put together my system.. Thank you, everyone! Although I am dizzied by too techy details, I do like to tinker..and I do enjoy a journey..and I especially enjoy finding a temporary "end.."Love of music is a singular activity in most ways yet sharing thoughts with kindred spirits is not that easy except in this kind of venue.. I plan on doing some serious reading about the sonic virtues of transport vs ripped/and or streaming. I will need to do some demo/listening to be convinced ...I do know that I could never totally give up my CD's..each one has it's own story and emotional memory.it's an attachment I can't imagine I would have with my computer based repertoire...(and that AMR CD-777 sure does look yummy)..Maybe I can tip-toe into the future and meanwhile still have the goosebumps I demand..
The streaming transport is still a VITAL part of the streaming chain and not addressing that aspect is a surefire way to get bad sound. You also can't simply get a NAS and DAC and have sound - you NEED that streamer. Some DAC's are Roon endpoints but then they are more streaming devices with built-in DAC's. Either way, both a streamer and a cd transport qualify as transports.
While I agree that a CD transport has the potential to create issues, you still have the price points to contend with. By the time you can actually achieve the sound quality that AMR CD-77 puts out, you'll easily surpass that seller's used price and probably be closer to the retail price. I know my streaming 'package' is above five figures once you factor in my networked music, and I don't consider that to be really high end either.
I will also admit that my fears have been that the software used might have a lot of bad influence on streaming devices. My point here is that theory vs. reality often produce different results and I've learned never to hold onto either one of them too hard. In each case there can be factors completely missed that change expectations tremendously. This is why I presented my experiences as such and have support from others whose ears I trust. I believe the theory that a file should be superior than a CD track, but for some reason that theory doesn't line up with my reality yet.
Reality beat theory when I showed at RMAF. I ended up having to use a CD transport 90% of the time because of the sonic differences, all other things being equal. The streamer and Cd transport were of similar build quality from the same company using the same cabling. I even paid about $300 extra for ancillary items/installation to ensure my streamer worked in the room and I begrudgingly had to all but give it up. This was not an isolated event either.
I am not here to ruffle feathers and would appreciate not being insinuated as a bold faced liar. My intent in this thread is to share my experiences and help the OP find a solution that fits HER needs and desires first and foremost. She has been provided a lot of food for thought and I hope she settles on what provides the best experience for her.
Well after the audio shop's technician located a transport for my B.A,T and installed..it still cut out so there was more than the transport gone bad..and Balanced audio confirmed because this was a very early unit,any other parts would be wild goose chase.R.I.P. my dear B.A.T.Meanwhile, this dealer gave me a loaner- A Primare CD22. For nearly 12 years The B.A.T. was the sound I knew..tube/lush soft, no hard edges..maybe unnaturally rounded? but I preferred that over the edge I heard from some other CDP's I listened to way back then. The sound was ingrained into my brain and that makes for a challenge to not hear "different" as "wrong".So listening to this was not likely to consider it as my next purchase, it was mostly so I wouldn't be without music. I'm having a grand time testing out my reference Cd's...and to my surprise I have found a few things..A different sound for sure...I actually find it refreshingly clear on my solo piano & female vocals...very similar to the tube sound in tone but kind of like menthol ...pleasing and realistic...The soundstage is a bit more narrow but for these types it is a minor thing..The litmus test will be tomorrow when I try my symphonic /orchestral pieces that I demand what I had before...deep & wide soundstage, accurate placement of instruments and most importantlyrealistic reproduction of each instrument...a screechy violin in the mix and bye bye forever.As I said I wasn't thinking Primare, but this cd22 sounds pretty damn good so far.. Let's say orchestral sounds divine...and I can assume the newer generation, cd35, (with or without DAC), sounds even better..Here's my question...:Primare and all CDP's, if everything is so geared towards digital, do you think the stand alone CD part of the equation is as advanced ? Or is all the good stuff in the DAC? I hope someone understands what I'm asking! :)
@abstract The yearly "advances" in DACs often involve more specmanship than real electronics. For daily driving, how much better is a 2019 car over the same 2018 model? Before purchasing the Bryston BCD-3, I eliminated the Hegel Mohican, leaving that new model of Primare as the chief competitor. If you have more CDs than you know what to do with, are committed to Red Book, there are distinct advantages to "integrated" players. The transport and the DAC both make a difference, as do their implementation. Googling you can find specs on both the Bryston and the Primare, who used different manufacturers for transports (both good) and for chips in the DACs (both good). Finally, both makers will have implemented them differently. Supposedly, different chips have different sonic characteristics, but it ends up being much more complicated than that.
twoleftyears...Ah yes...I see....I guess I was not wondering if the improvement was huge from model to model as much as if the present new models are improved more for their symbionic relationship to their companion Dac or in their own right. As much as I know a tube CDP would most likely be my sonic bliss (and that AMR is calling me) I am now fearing buying used of that age... (the BAT feels like a death in my family)...I am pleasantly surprised with my listening experience of this loaner Primare cd22...The sonics are wonderful..I have thrown everything at it today... solo piano is clean and warm, acoustic guitar is lifelike, female vocals are rich. Orchestral:I was worried about the violins..I always worry about the violins....but yes! They sounded mighty fine...phew! and basically the small orchestral pieces all had a very inviting timbre..and sounded like the instruments they ae (the only exception was the 2 taps of a triangle at the end of Appalachian Spring..I used to get goosebumps from that..could 2 triangle taps be my dealbreaker?)Large orchestral was tonally very pleasing ...slightly anaemic and slightly less grandiose than my BAT). Twoleftears: Did you listen to the CD35?
@abstract I wish I had had an opportunity to. But Primare doesn't have a large dealer base, with nothing close at hand. Also, their repair network seemed dependent on one individual. Whereas I've had excellent support, above and beyond, for many years with Bryston. I suspect the CD35 and the BCD-3 sound more alike than different.
And yes, I know what you mean. It was those early DDD recordings done by Deutsche Gramophon of massed violins that sent me, ears bleeding, for a number of years into the arms of class A, single ended, triode tubes. But not any more.
I just shocked myself...I realized I had a hard time pulling myself away from this Primare CD22 loaner... that always a good sign...I did it...my dealer just ordered me a brand spanking new Primare CD35...I'm excited and nervous all at the same time..I suspect much like having a "first" date after being married for so many years then divorced ..I may just love it!
It is due in mid of next week...I have cleared my agenda best I could for my first serious session Sunday the 20th. The world better not be knocking on my door!I will give a full report.!
It's here...and a real beauty...titanium front and black casing and the most gorgeous minimalist matte silver feet...I can't wait until Sunday for my date with Primare CD35..
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