Phono Stage, How much do I need to spend, New or used.

I want to thank everyone for their opinions and recommendations. This thread has been very helpful. Again, Thanks so much.

The musical fidelity lx-lps is a terrific mm/mc phono preamp. Comes with both loading and capacitance plugs. Excellent specs as well. I think it is still avail at $499. Still have mine, even though I moved up to a tavish design tubed phono preamp. 

No, it's true. That is why I have to sit in the middle of the room. With CD the music fills the whole room, you can even see it going out the door into the rest of the house. Records however barely fill the sweet spot. As best I can tell there is no sound anywhere else. One of the most closely guarded secrets of analog, but now the cat is out of the bag. 

Don’t listen to anyone that says vinyl/phono won’t fill a room, that’s utter nonsense!

+1 for the Herron. I had one for a little while, loved it! It if you want something 

iFi Audio iPhono 3 would be my recommendation for a good starting point, for a $grand, new.
if you have more in the pot then anything from Allnic Audio should deliver, assuming you’re not averse to tubes. Haven’t heard the Herron phono that people are recommending but given its following I’m sure it sounds good.

Hello,
I have a great recommendation for the VPI and your cart. Sutherland KC Vibe. $899 for a really nice preamp.
https://sutherlandengineering.com/products/kc-vibe/
 I have the Mani also. It is nice on a cheap cart. But on a VPI with a nice cart you need really good equipment. I agree with the Herron but it is up there in price. Also, you have to be careful with tubes. On some systems they can be to mellow. Sutherland handles both types of carts with good selection. I liked 47k and 50db of gain. there are more expensive models. The sweet spot is the 20/20 for $2200 and $400 more for an upgraded power supply 
https://sutherlandengineering.com/products/2020/
I have heard both of these. The KC Vibe was really nice on my $500 TT. If you are in the Chicagoland area I use 
https://holmaudio.com/
I am still deciding which VPI I want and will match it with the 20/20 or the Little LOCO. They have an upgrade program. So I can start with the VPI prime scout and a Sutherland KCVibe and trade up to a VPI prime and a Sutherland 20/20 a year from purchase in case I win the lottery. I hope this helps because I have listened to all of this myself so I am coming from experience. To fill the room upgrade your speakers or your regular preamp. 

I was going to write that The Music Room posted a used Herron VTPH-2A yesterday for $2,299 but it sold within a day. Hopefully you were the lucky purchaser.

one newly listed there would tempt me

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Counterpoint-SA3-1-Tube-Analog-Audiophile-Preamp-Phono/154358866931

quick find

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-sa-3-1-an-overlooked-gem.168/

lewm, a member here, mentioned their 5.1 is very nice sounding.

Return option is recommended, especially Phono, you can read all you want, they sound this way in that system, that way in yours.

I had a highly regarded McIntosh SS C-28 Preamp, and a TT with an optional dinky built in phono preamp. I actually preferred the TT’s built in to the C28.

Then I bought my beloved McIntosh Tube Tuner/Preamp mx110z. Great Phono (2 inputs). I use a SUT step up transformer for MC with PASS for MM, to send all 3 of my tonearm/cartridges (MC,MM,Mono) to mx110z’s phono.

Personally, especially with return option, I suggest you try a Tube Preamp with Phono(s), which gives you options to try tubes with any or all other components that are perhaps going thru an integrated amp.

I like Vintage, eBay search just now, many with returns, including one mx110z listed. Yes those old RCA jacks need a good cleaning, true of most vintage,

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1311&_nkw=vintage+tube+prea...

I think maybe the OP didn't communicate what he is hearing correctly. I don't think he is talking about SPL  or dynamics. Maybe he means referring more to the illusion of the soundstage filling the room? And that could just come down to the recording quality, no matter what the medium.

Again, just speculating.

Oz

+1 @audioguy85

Room filling SPL(sound pressure level) is a speaker sensitivity issue, fusionout do you have a sound meter? You could measure sound pressure for both digital and analog to make accurate SPL comparison for your room if you have test media in both formats.


Dynamic range for digital vs analog, as amplitude increases so does the intensity of the sound wave or SPL goes up in dbs.

Ugh, filling the room? Never ever heard this when comparing a phono stage. Speakers? Yes. More sensitive speaker or a more powerful amp to drive existing speakers to a louder level would "fill a room". Most phono stages will work the same, amplify the tiny signal. However, some of course will provide better "quality" sound. Unless maybe the phono stage in question has adjustable gain...then yes it may play a bit louder, but I don't think that is the issue.

Might want to take a look at the Channel Island PEQ you could get in under budget including the optional outboard power supply. 

Best,
-JP

Plenty to choose from for filling the room better than digital. Depends how far you want to go and how much commited to analogue. Any phono stage in 1k-2k, new or used, would be a huge upwards step. 

G

 denon pra 2000, Sony ES 77

also great option

Atoll and goldnote is also very competitivly priced and good 

I started with an iphono and then moved to an EAR 834p, both used and under $1k. Good results with both. When I stepped up to the Manley Chinook SE, it was a bigger leap than going to the EAR. My vinyl outdoes my digital now, using a Hana SL and a VPI Prime. My digital is an excellent Lumin D2 with upgraded power supply. It comes quite close on hi Rez files. 

Speaking new prices, I think phono stage should be at least twice as expensive as cartridge. This is easy question to answer.

In that $1K price range, I would also suggest the Hagerman Labs Trumpet MC (can be used for MM carts as well w/adjustable gain). Tubes, dead quiet, and $900 (used even less). It’s a winner on value alone, let alone sq.

I have a Phono Box RS ($1000). It is excellent and often looked over.
Get the outboard power supply for it ($700)... don't use the wallwart. It is quiet.

If you expect the room to be filled like digital does, do NOT use vinyl. a CD can have up to about 96 db of dynamic punch whereas, on vinyl, you will NEVER get more than at best about 72 db. It is just the limitation of the media and physics. All other things being equal, you can spend $50,000 on a phone stage and or $10,000 on a cartridge and nothing will change. Digital will ALWAYS win on dynamic range and room filling.

Some audiophiles may disagree with me.  Let them.  Physics and your own ears will prove it to you.

If you are on a budget the Hagerman Cornet3 tube phono is good value at $439 new.
Going up to around 1$k - EAR 834 tube phono is great value for money.

JLTi is a good phono, better than the Lehman in my view but given your requirement I would look for a tube phono.

+1, Herron VTPH-2A


if it’s above your $$ limit, look at the Parasound JC3 Jr., it’s little less than half the cost of the Herron.   

@bigkidz

what does any amount of money have to do with SQ? It is in the design of the component that matters most.

??? 

are you reading what the op is asking?

what does any amount of money have to do with SQ?  It is in the design of the component that matters most.

+1  for lehmann , a jewel.

@fusionout -- for not a whole lot more money, try a lehmann black cube phono stage... will be night and day in terms of resolution and drive, and will fill up your room nicely

you can certainly spend more, and get better sound, but with diminishing returns

I agree with those who identify the Schjiit Mani as the weak link. WEAK.  

I also agree with @miller carbon that the Herron VTPH-2A will significantly improve your vinyl chain.  It would be, and has been, my first and only choice for vinyl reproduction for years.  If you're lucky, you could find one used.  

I was in the same spot 5 years ago.  I made the plunge to a Manley Chinook.  It lifted my analog to great heights. I'm not pushing that product, but trying to give you confidence to take the leap (if you can afford an upgrade).  

I think that you could buy a phono stage in the 1000-1500 dollar range that would bring out that vinyl magic the schiit is the limiting factor lol.

Give it a rest.

OP I thought I new it all as a kid (still do to some degree). I had this Mac MX110z. I'm going to tell you it had a really good phono section (so I thought). I had Heavy platter RCA with a Grace tonearm and cart.. It weighed 125 pounds and was a 3 piece work of handcrafted art from a local Masonic lodge makeover in the late 60s.

It had an separate phono section. That section was plugged into a Marantz Valve setup. My first experience with Marantz.. No one could afford MARANTZ.  Fisher, HS Scott, Mac, Heath, Dynco, etc..

Well that phono section was a Marantz/Ear (Masonic lodge) special..
All valves, point to point. with straight wire turret boards. It reminded me of HK Citation layout.. Just very well laid out..

I got the TT, 3 Grace tonearms, the phono section and at least 100 valve
for just moving it as as a kid. It was out, and the new was in... Good when the whole family is affiliated in some way or another..

Point being if I wouldn't have gone overseas, and new I was coming back. I would have NEVER sold that phono section.. EVER. I kept the Mac...  LOL fate..

A well matched cart and phono section.. Not just any cart and any phono section... Some pres are easy to change. CARTS aren't.. There is only so much leeway on a cart..

Enjoy 

That Mani really is your bottleneck. I have a friend with a Well Tempered Amadeus and Denon DL-103 who was using one. He replaced it with a Pro-Ject Phono Box RS (1000.00) and he says the difference was astounding. I would recommend my K&K Audio Maxxed Out phono stage (~2500.00) but I believe it is no longer in production. I have owned this one for over 20 years and it has been updated a few times. It's one piece that will probably outlive me.

So yes, a new phono stage will be a huge improvement over what you have.

Oz

You want to fill the room "like digital does"? Impossible. They all sound way better than digital. However, if you are asking what phono stage will be so good that even a guy like me who uses digital as the standard will be forced to admit yeah, this is WAY BETTER? Herron VTPH2A.

Or if using the MM cart then you have enough output to use the Decware ZP3.

I must warn you however, either one of these and your days of comparing to digital are done for.

You have $650 cartridge and $125 phono stage now.
I think you can fond some nice phono stages within $1200 and you don’t gave to pay more than this. 

One inexpensive phono stage I like a lot is JLTi mk4 which you could find for $700, now mk5 available directly from Australia.