I am in a six-month process of assembling a system will last me for the next 5-10 years. I’m set on the components, so please do not try to talk me out of my selections. My question here is a technical one.
I have purchased a Thorens TD–1601 and a Nagaoka MP–200 cartridge. I am trying to decide on the Integrated amp between Yamaha’s A-S3200 and A-S2200. The key difference for this question being the A-S3200 has two balanced inputs and the A-S2200 has one. I will use the first balanced connection to connect a recently purchased HiFi Rose RS-150b Streamer/DAC.
Now to my real question. The semi-automatic Thorens TD-1601 has both balanced and unbalanced outputs. I am considering buying a Schitt Skoll phono pre which has balanced in-and-out. In that case, I would buy the Yamaha A-S3200, needing two balanced inputs.
So, ASSUMING the phono preamp on the Yamaha A-S2200 is comparable to the Schitt Skoll, will I get markedly better sound by going fully unbalanced, with the Skoll and the much more expensive A-S3200, or unbalanced direct from Thorens TT into the highly regarded phone pre of the A-S2200?
What benefits will I get by going balanced? How much benefit? It is worth the complexity, extra box, cables, $2,000-3,000? I can afford it if much better, but don’t want to spend money unnecessarily. The TT and the integrated will be right next to each other, so distance is not a factor. Or is the A-S3200 that much better? …I like the BIGGER meters.
My current speakers are Paradigm Reference Studio 40 v2, which I love and have two pair, a super sleeper. They are not likely to be changed…one day Fyne Audio.
To reiterate, this is a technical question about the merits of balanced turntable connections. Thanks for the input. I have learned much from this forum over the last few years.
@lewm: “I hope you get the salient point that ICs per se count for nothing if the phono stage (in this instance) is not capable of balanced operation. Therefore you can’t have one without the other.”
That is quite misguided. Single ended is in fact differential, with respect to signal ground. Using the signal ground of the unbalanced differential signal from your typical phono cartridge as a shield is utter madness. To understand why, you must look at the point of origin and understand that while it is not referenced to the phono stage chassis ground, that is the only ground available and appropriate for a shield, and it is well proven to be effective.
I can tell you my experience with my Esoteric E-02 phono preamp which has balance and unbalance inputs. Since my Din cable is RCA, that was what I was using until I decided to see how the balance input of the Esoteric compares. I use a couple Cardas RCA to XLR adapters and Wow, the sound opened up and was considerably clearer sounding which was a surprise since I added a extra piece and connections in the signal path. But the design of the phono preamp is fully balanced, so XLR should be used for best performance.
I think this might be coming from a misunderstanding of how differential amplifiers work. So let’s look at that: A differential amplifier gets its name from the fact that it amplifies what is different between its two inputs ...
Pedantic.
I’m going to do you a favor, Ralph. After this post, I’m going to allow you the last word on this matter in this thread. You have my word. Based on your past practice, I know you’ll have many!
For the last time let’s look at that phono cartridge into a ARC Ref Phono 2SE using its balanced out into an ARC Ref5SE. That is the exact combination I’ve mentioned in this thread, and its results are not unusual.
Here is the ARC factory specification for the Ref Phono 2SE:
There are two separate sets of inputs, with selectable gain between Low (51dB BAL / 45dB SE) and High (74dB BAL / 68dB SE).
I can confirm that these products meet specification. My best to you.
If you run a cartridge "balanced" (technically, it's floating) into a differentially balanced phono preamp such as an ARC Ref Phono 2SE, you will have 6 dB more gain in balanced mode than unbalanced.
I think this might be coming from a misunderstanding of how differential amplifiers work. So let's look at that:
A differential amplifier gets its name from the fact that it amplifies what is different between its two inputs. In a balanced phono situation, normally that would be pin 2 and pin 3 of the XLR input.
However, what if the cartridge was connected to pin 2 and pin 1 (ground) instead (as would be the case if running that phono section single-ended)? It wouldn't work right unless you tied to pin 3 to pin 1; otherwise you'd likely have a lot of hum and buzz.
So you tie pin 3 to ground and there's your signal. Exactly the same as before, not increased by 6dB, for the simple reason that the differential amplifier is amplifying what is different at its inputs, and that difference is the cartridge signal. The diff amp doesn't care that one side happens to also be ground.
That's is your opinion and I respect it. But many others think the advantage is:
... as noted in the Wikipedia link I previously provided.
Wiki isn't wrong on this point. Those are advantages of balanced line operation. But imagine a recording studio, with 50 or 60 different devices- a mixer, tape machines, mic preamps, compressors and other effects devices. You can see that if you had a ground loop it might take days or weeks to find it! So one of the advantages of balanced line operation is also ground loop immunity. (that's also a Wiki link FWIW)
I knew Robert Fulton (as did Bill Johnson, founder of ARC, and Warren Gehl, Kalvin Dahl, who still work there, along with Rich Larson, who was ARC's engineer for a long time; I know or knew those people too and they knew me as well since we did listening sessions at Bob Fredere's house in south Mpls). Fulton created the first high end audio interconnect cables and speaker cables, and thus founded the high end cable industry. We all know what happened after that.
So what do you suppose was going on prior to Robert Fulton? How were record labels able to run 200 feet of interconnect cables between their microphones and the inputs to their tape machines as Mercury did when they recorded at Northrup Auditorium in Minneapolis?
I know you know- they used balanced lines. This was to prevent the cables imposing an artifact (in addition to all those other benefits). Quite literally with the equipment they used, you could swap out a cable with one a lot more expensive and not hear any difference. That is still true today (get yourself a refurbished tape machine and some Neumann mics and you can see for yourself). Put simply, the system is immune to the artifacts of the cable as long as the standard is observed.
I'm sure your preamp works fine, but as you've already noticed, you have audition the cable and find the one that works best that you can also afford. That's up to you; all I'm saying is if the standard is supported you no longer have to worry about that.
And where this makes the most difference is the phono cable, where the signal absolutely must arrive intact if you want best performance.
I've not once anywhere on the web made the claim as you suggest above ...
Here is what you wrote:
When you run a cartridge balanced, it supports the standard. So no increase in gain.
If you run a cartridge "balanced" (technically, it's floating) into a differentially balanced phono preamp such as an ARC Ref Phono 2SE, you will have 6 dB more gain in balanced mode than unbalanced.
For home use, the advantage is that a properly set up balanced line will minimize the 'sound' of the cable.
That's is your opinion and I respect it. But many others think the advantage is:
... as noted in the Wikipedia link I previously provided.
... the output of a balanced preamp that does not support AES48, there can be a 6dB in the apparent increase in gain ...
That is misleading because it's not an "apparent" increase in gain. It's a genuine, specified, measurable increase in gain. Or, if your prefer to look at it another way, it's a 6 dB improvement in S/N.
Ralph @atmasphere, there's no question that you're expert and manufacture fine products, many protected by your trademarked and patented circuits. But there's more than one way to execute balanced circuits, and you're obviously prejudiced against those who take a different approach.
You muddy the waters when you mistakenly claim they aren’t balanced.
@cleedsI've not once anywhere on the web made the claim as you suggest above. I think you misunderstood something, since what I posted previously did not contradict this statement of yours:
It’s a simple fact that designs such as the excellent ARC products will yield 6 db greater gain when run in balanced mode.
My comment was regarding a phono cartridge. So let's examine that and you'll see I was right. Let's start with the single-ended connection: the output of the cartridge is applied to the input of the phono section and ground. The total output of the cartridge might be 0.5mV. Now if you apply that same cartridge to a balanced phono input, the output of the cartridge is unchanged- its still 0.5mV. So there is no '6dB increase in output' of the cartridge- it is in fact exactly the same.
As I mentioned in my post, at the output of a balanced preamp that does not support AES48, there can be a 6dB in the apparent increase in gain if that output is connected to a balanced amp as opposed to single-ended. That is because a non-compliant balanced circuit simply has two single-ended outputs, one out of phase with the other. So if you use one and get a Volt out of it, if you use both you get 2 Volts which is a 6dB increase.
If the circuit supported AES48 then neither output references ground- they reference each other (like you see at the output of a phono cartridge). Its worth noting that this means that to drive balanced lines correctly (IOW to winnow all the benefits of the technology, such as interconnect cable artifact immunity and immunity to ground loops) what ever is driving the balanced line has to be floating source.
You don't have to do it that way of course but if you do it gets better.
Sleepwalker, I hope you get the salient point that ICs per se count for nothing if the phono stage (in this instance) is not capable of balanced operation. Therefore you can’t have one without the other. These days there are components that provide XLR inputs but do not treat the signal in balanced mode.
OP here. I personally don’t perceive the thread off-topic. With all due respect, this thread’s applied intention is to help a fellow audiophile with a complex (to him) technical scenario & purchasing decision. While it may have broadened, as the OP, I have leaned much, and am open to the other considerations that have arisen. My true curiosity is to achieve the best sound, and in my case, there is much to consider and study. I appreciate the community’s willingness to apply their experience and time & energy.
This discussion has gone off-topic. It is supposed to be about the virtues of balanced, differential interconnects vs single-ended. Yes, much of it applies to other interconnects, but this discussion is about the interconnects between the turntable’s tonearm and the phono stage.
I like to say “all other things being equal” (same cartridge, same phono stage, same everything downstream) a balanced connection will get you 6db compared to an SE connection of all the same components.. usually this comparison is not actually feasible.
You don’t get any more gain. That only happens with active outputs that don’t support the balanced standard, AES48. When you run a cartridge balanced, it supports the standard. So no increase in gain.
That is not quite accurate. It would be true if all balanced components supported the AES48 standard but - as you well know - many do not. As an example, Audio Research has many differentially balanced amps and preamps and they do not support AES48. Yet these designs still offer advantages over single-ended designs, as explained by Wikipedia:
It’s a simple fact that designs such as the excellent ARC products will yield 6 db greater gain when run in balanced mode. Or, if your prefer to look at it another way, they yield a 6 dB improvement in S/N. That can make a big difference, especially in something such as a phono preamp.
Ralph, I know that you understand all of this. But notwithstanding your fine trademarked and patented products, there are many other excellent balanced audio components on the market. You muddy the waters when you mistakenly claim they aren’t balanced. Here’s the spec on my ARC preamp, straight from the manufacturer:
REF5 SE: Main output: 12dB Balanced output, 6dB SE output.
Cartridges, with only a few exceptions are balance devices. For the best sound (no sound of their own), tonearm cables and interconnects should be balanced. This is mandatory for long runs. With tonearms the ground is isolated in a fifth wire, so RCAs can be balanced also, it is up to the manufacturer of the phono stage whether or not it is operated truly balanced. When we use XLRs we leave pin #1 blank.
Great choice of turntable. You may have to add some weight to the tonearm for the MP 200 which is on the stiff side. Soundsmith sells a set of graded cartridge screws that are great for tuning resonance. You want it down by 8 Hz. You might even be able to go lower. You can get the real compliance with a test record. the HIFi News record seems to be the most popular.
You don't get any more gain. That only happens with active outputs that don't support the balanced standard, AES48. When you run a cartridge balanced, it supports the standard. So no increase in gain.
For home use, the advantage is that a properly set up balanced line will minimize the 'sound' of the cable. If you've ever auditioned cables and heard a difference, that's what I'm talking about. The tonearm cable is the best place to really get that right; no matter how good the rest of your system is, it can't make up for colorations and loss from the tonearm cable. Even if the cable is only 1 meter, you still get a benefit as opposed to an RCA cable. Keep in mind the cartridge is a balanced source to begin with.
@tablejockey thanks, I appreciate your attention to this thread.
I do have a zphono, personally, I cannot hear a difference between it and the onboard pre in my current integrated. The zphono is a nice piece, for sure. I have been reading about the new Schitt Skoll Phono Pre, and aside from its fully balanced function, I am impressed its capabilities with the measured reviews. Probably where I will start. Open to comments on it.
That's even easier, saw it on their website, cool setup. Thanks for the info. However the combo of my Lyra Kleos and Stellar phono stage as stated earlier makes it very unlikely I will ever go that route. I like my system as is and am winding down on the many upgrades and tweaks done over the last 4 years in my house of stereo. I really enjoy spending most of my time listening to music now instead of trying to improve the sound.
Baylinor, The VPI Classic being a tt certainly has nothing to do with the balanced vs SE distinction. So I assume you mean to say that the VPI tonearm is not wired for a balanced connection. But I’d guess it most certainly is. It probably offers separate hot and ground for each channel in SE mode, plus a ground wire probably attached to the tonearm body, 5 wires in total. All you would have to do is remove the RCA plugs, and replace them with XLRs, where hot goes to pin2 on the XLR, ground (now negative phase) goes to pin3, and the ground wire to pin1. but yes, you would also need a balanced phono stage. The PS Audio Stellar is by reputation so good that maybe you need not bother. And it does have balanced outputs.
I use balanced everywhere in my system except from TT to phono preamp since the VPI Classic 1 and PS Audio Stellar do not offer it. I do notice a bit higher gain with balanced connections so it would make sense that it may be helpful with extremely low output mc cartridges. However my Lyra Kleos at 0.5 mV does not qualify. In fact it sounds better on the Stellar low gain setting than the recommended medium one, hence balanced may be a detriment in my specific setup.
I've never run into a home situation where line level XLR reduced noise... but I have been in some shows in hotels where noise pickup was almosts unavoidable with RCA.
Due to the low signal level and high gain needed by cartridges I would not be surprised if things were different, not to mention the number of ground loop issues I've experienced/seen on turntables which vanish using balanced inputs.
Want to be clear that the balanced line level connections are not the same electrically as for a phono stage, so I would assess XLR noise issues differently for a turntable as for, say a CD player.
I do like that XLR connectors lock in place, but I changed to locking rca's to solve that.
extra gain: I did get a SMALL amount of gain out of my Sony xa5400 CD player's XLR compared to it's rca out, but certainly not enough to matter. No audible difference.
typically, like a DAC, wiser to keep phono stage separate for potential change.
In my case my vintage McIntosh mx110z tube tuner/preamp has a wonderful sounding MM phono eq built in (two inputs). I run my tonearms thru a SUT to the mx110z's MM input. I never think about changing to something else. If it blew up, I would get another without bothering to compare. Friends bring their phono stages here to compare with it. My office, for simplicity, I use the built-in MM/MC in my little Luxman, sounds darn good but never compared it to the mx110z.
Features:
you mentioned bigger meters. They will be fun for a week or two, then they might be bothersome, make sure you can turn their lights off or out of circuit.
check the hidden features, you need to read the manual to find things they don't tell you about, like remote balance .... and, check the buttons on the remotes. Many high end makers don't even show the remote. My Cayin remote is solid aluminum, very nice to look and feel/use, much preferred to boring plastic remote, you use them every time you listen.
What balanced gets you, mostly, with phono is a few db of gain. So if you had a very low output cartridge you might find some benefit in going balanced. Also, if you're cable run was very long, like more than 12 or 15 ft you may find significant benefit. Otherwise there's very little. I run a fairly high end analog source and it's all single ended. Look at so much of the super high end Japanese stuff too like shindo. It's all single ended. There will be lots of controversy and disagreement here but my experience is no need for balanced.
I have the Rose rs150b connected to my amp with unbalanced rca connectors and I haven't once thought to myself that I could make it sound better. Which could free up the one unbalanced you have for your phono but if your heart is set on connecting with balanced, don't compromise. By the way, you are going to love the radio part of the rose as you get internet radio from all over the world and can pick which genre you like to listen to.
The reason to minimize noise at the phono stage is because that stage is called upon to produce the most gain, by far, of any element in the chain. High gain requirement brings the problem of noise to the fore. I have one system that is fully balanced (using Atma-sphere components) front to back, and a second system that is SE all the way. Both require long ICs between preamp and amps. Both are acceptable in terms of S to N. I’d say the balanced mode is not so much quieter as it is completely trouble free in terms of noise. Never a faint hum or a buzz. The SE system will have an occasional hiccup.
I have a balanced connection from my VPI Titan to my Van den Hul Grail SE. In fact, my entire system is true balanced and connected with XLR. I’ll never go back voluntarily.
An MC cartridge /tone arm set up wired balanced (technically called “floating”) has consistently less noise, even over a short span. There are side-by-side tests by Pro-Ject (admittedly pushing its balanced units) that show this, over a short 1 M distance. You cancel out that first bit of noise.
To me, the most important signal to reduce noise is the phono stage. It’s the weakest and most vulnerable connection. Any noise there is merely amplified as you go along.
There is a reason why people say the most critical links in your system are your speakers and your cartridge. Neither is the place to skimp.
Used to have a fully balanced system, IMO balanced removes some of the noise that gets in the way of the music. Highly recommended. And don't let anyone tell you it's only about long cables. True or floating balanced, both work
To tag onto what @gdnrbob mentioned. I recently bought gear that is truly fully balanced. This is the best solution for when you need to run long cables. The mfg. (Atma-Sphere) also suggested I convert my Rega P6 turntable from RCA to fully balanced. I did it it and it’s awesome- quiet and sounds great! I have their tube pre with tube phono stage and class d mono blocks and loving it more every day! In case you haven’t already, I suggest you read up on the posts from Ralph @atmasphere. He has lots of good posts that explain the interesting tech side of truly balanced vs just XLR and not actually balanced.
Right question, wrong reason. You need to find out for yourself if induced noise from unbalanced interconnects is objectionable to you or not.
That aside, unbalanced (using one of the signal conductors as the signal ground for the other signal conductor) is not best practice. Take the way the headshell wiring brings both signal conductors for each channel through the tonearm tube that is grounded fo the phono stage chasssis (not the turntable chassis). Using shielded twisted pair preserves and extends the tonearm tube shielding all the way to the phono stage.
Oh, and one more thing, phono cartridges produce a differential signal that is not referenced to any ground, so the signal is neither balanced nor unbalanced, but it works best with balanced interconnects.
The biggest difference you’ll experience is most likely using balanced from turntable to the phono amplifier. Since that has balanced outs as well I’d give the phono signal preference and use short RCA wiring from DAC to integrated and save the money.
OTOH, if you expect long runs from component to component, or are in an electrically noisy environment (like a high rise) or money is not object, then the XLR inputs for your CD and phono amp will make sense.
Honestly, given how delicate signals from a phono cartridge are I'm amazed more turntables and preamps don't have balanced inputs for them. Of all source components in consumer gear, a phono cartridge to me seems to benefit the most from a differential input that is separate from the ground.
I suggest looking for posts by 'Atmasphere', -Ralph was one of the first manufacturers to provide a 'true' Balanced design to audiophile equipment- which entails abiding by the AES 47 standards.
He often chimes in to Balanced/Unbalanced discussions. But, if he doesn't, then PM him. Honest, free advice from a really nice person.
Above should read ”yes, the Nagaoka can be wired for balanced operation”. As can nearly every cartridge except those that provide only a single common ground for both channels. IMO, at this level (given the OP’s system) it may not be worth the extra expense. This is in no way meant to denigrate the system.
@gemoody For what it's worth, my Rega P8 only comes with RCA connectors from the TT. Rega knows a thing or two about TTs but they obviously don't think balanced connectors from the TT to the phono preamp are important? I do use all balanced cables from the phono pre onwards.
The turntable itself is neither balanced or unbalanced, it is the cartridge that can either be wired balanced or unbalanced and it is my understanding that virtually all cartridges are capable of being wired balanced. If you use the XLR connectors on the Thorens you should be sending a balanced signal to the phono pre.
"But still, the existing question, is the extra "balanced" effort, complexity, and expense ($3k) worth it vs. unbalanced RCA to the zphono or Yamaha’s phono input."
@tablejockey, thanks, I actually own a z-phono and have it in use. I remain intrigued by Balanced/XLR and the Skoll.
Now studying if the TD-1601>Nagoaka MP-200>Schitt Skoll>Yamaha A-S3200 Balanced input will preserve the balanced signal end-to-end. So far, my research suggests it does. Any comments here?
But still, the existing question, is the extra "balanced" effort, complexity, and expense ($3k) worth it vs. unbalanced RCA to the zphono or Yamaha’s phono input.
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