New Speakers up to $15k - The more I read the less I know!

Awesome to hear.  Just glad you got a pair of speaker that you love.  I feel the same way, but others like the B&W better.  That's the fun of audio and boards.  If you need advice on pairings of amps or sources in the future, ask away, lol.  I've heard most everything with them since I got them.  I really want Richards soon to be released mono blocks and a preamp for it.  Would be amazing.  

Wow, Amazing. That’s really all I need to say about these speakers.

They were delivered yesterday in excellent condition. High pass filters batteries are dated 2022 and have QA Wind balanced connections; I am running AQ Niagara and Water, nice match.

In the week it took to ship the speakers I studied the setup manual and created another thread here asking for help. I followed all the advise and did my homework and had all of the proper tools. The setup took a few hours and all I can say is I am extremely happy. These Quatro CT’s blow away my B&W 803S by a wide margin and I loved those speakers. Time to re-listen to my Vinyl!

I concur with CTsooner.
 Congrats, enjoy and let us know how you fare.
B

Wow, awesome. So you are the lucky one who got them.  There is another thead I'm on and they were all wondering if it was for real or not, the condition etc... Sounds like it was legit and that you are one lucky guy.  I paid Rutan to drive to CT to set mine up, but I can't move anything with the MS, lol.  Keep using this thread to keep us up on your set up.  

I decided on the Quatro Wood CT after many a listening session. I really like 5A and 5A Carbon but I think for my 16’x16’ room, the ability to place the CT’s closer to the back wall was appealing. Finish is Mahogany Walnut.

I listened to Wilsons, B&W, Focal, Thiel, KEF and many others. The Vandys are near perfection to me. There are things I like about all the speakers I listened to but to me the Vandys have no strengths. They just disappear.

I was going to buy a set from Ultra Fidelis in Milwaukee. John and Bob there are simply great and I have spent lots of money in that place. That was the plan and then I saw a used set on Audiogon for a great price including XLR xovers.

I want to learn as much as possible so setting these up by myself will be a thrill to me. If I am not happy I’ll ask John at Ultra Fidelis to do a "master setup"

I have the RS meter and laser for measuring. I am building a spreadsheet and am laying out my room on cad... Overkill perhaps, however I don get the speakers until late next week so I have something to obsess about!

I'm so glad that you are enjoying that TT as much as I did.  I loved that thing.  For the price, I wasn't able to find anything, even used, that was close.

Awesome front end
the Ref110 is absolutely perfect for this speaker !!!!
i ran my Vandersteen 5a with a loaner Ref75se and it was hyper sweet midrange w proven Vandersteen powered bass
the rest of your system is all gear Vandersteen shows with.
Richard just listened to my Delos on a Basis into TREO CT and it passed w flying colors !!!!!
yowsa !!!!
enjoy

I bet you can get a Vandersteen 5 for your price.

Congrats!!!  Awesome speakers. 

Awesome and congrats.  What helped you make that decision?  Which wood or paint did you go with?  Also, wondering which dealer?  If you have questions feel free to ask.  Glad that you went to audition to many speakers as that's the most important thing you can do.  

New gear is always fun.  Just installed three new pairs of Audioquest Hurricane power cords and even though they need breaking in, the Quatro's are crushing it like never before!  

I pulled the trigger on the Quatro Wood CT after many hours of listening and comparing. I cant wait to get them delivered and setup. Thanks for all the great responses.

I can see you are a high-hi-end listener. Me too, but I learned a lot when I was partners in Audio Tweakers over a decade ago. My then biz partner had a cost no object budget, which I got to hear regularly. He now owns Scaena Loudspeakers which combine art and sound to great results

Now, I have owned my share of exotic speakers to drive my 17 x 34 x 11 living/listening room, including building frames for rewired Accoustat 3 + 3 with 4 tweaked servo amps, Genesis Vs (as did my partner in the early days) but mine were HPs personal pair.  I much prefer dipoles, which are known to disappear, while throwing a hyge sound stage

If you have the room I suggest you investigate the new Magnepan 30.7s, but only those.  If you would like to hear what a measly $2K buys you, I am selling my pair of Emerald Physics KCIIs, internally wired with WireWorld OCC. Only reason I am selling is I got a super sweet deal on a pair of EP 3.0s. See my ad and review in AA

hth 

I'm pretty sure the DeVore 0/93's will still be great speakers some 20 years down the line whatever upgrades may or may not appear between then and now. The same way the original Harbeth M40's are today.

John DeVore loves electronica according to the journalists who have visited him and attended his "monkey parties". Listening to LCD Soundsystem's "Get Innocuous", the first track on the Sound of Silver album through the O/93's powered by my ARC Ref150 SE and Ref 6 with my AMR DP777 DAC and an Aurender N100H with Cardas Clear Beyond cabling is an amazing experience. The very first bass and drum line has you thinking that the bass is lightning fast and crisp and vivid and then suddenly a whole new wave of deeper bass kicks in that is startling to anyone not expecting it. My 86 year old dad and my 80 year old mom were over for Mothers Day and my dad wanted to hear the system-recognizing that most of my components including the DeVores were new. They were amazed despite having the hearing deficits that come with age. There is something very special about a well designed 10" paper woofer combined with just a soft dome tweeter. Obviously there is much more to the "special sauce" consisting of the cabinet design, two rearward facing ports located at the bottom of the enclosure, and the crossover design, not to mention that John DeVore has that SEAS woofer built to his specs. Also, I just had my carpeting in my dedicated listening room replaced with solid walnut hardwood. This made a huge difference in the SQ-bass has a solidity that it did not quite have before and the midrange is smoother. Highs seem unchanged. It took very little time to nail down speaker positioning whereas with carpet, it took a lot of tiny adjustments to get things optimized. 

@fsonicsmith  Congratulations! Be they artistic or engineering approaches (ear/measurement) real advances in speaker design are slow. So slow in fact some say non-existent at the high end.

The best you can do is to find the compromises you can live with, fine tune, and then breathe a sigh of relief as you get off the dizzy upgrade roundabout.

I'm pretty sure the DeVore 0/93's will still be great speakers some 20 years down the line whatever upgrades may or may not appear between then and now. The same way the original Harbeth M40's are today.

Yes, the state of the art loudspeaker design still involves serious compromise. 

I'll compromise on anything this side of a screechy treble to get a vivid midrange. Its the best way for me to forget that I'm listening to loudspeakers.

For some others the goal may be the imagery / disappearing act combination. Devore seem to be a modern take on the classic DC Tannoys from the past with their luxury bass.

I happily lived with the original B&W Matrix 805's for over a dozen years for just this reason. But the compromises involved were huge. The 805's were three speakers ago. I now have DeVore O/93's and have never been happier. But I have not only kept my Matrix 805's but also had John of Van L Speakerworks in Chicago upgrade my internal wiring, crossover caps, and binding posts. I intend to use them again some day. 

new Revel model is the F228be

Hard to imagine not giving the new 10k Revel a listen.Kevin V is one great designer with a very large budget. A wonderful alternative is a used pair of Salon 2’s for way under 15k. This is where I’d look fwiw.

heinrichmilw the review doesn't reveal much about construction or materials but the fact that they succeeded the D40R's and were designed by Stuart Tyler speaks volumes.

The review does suggest that they are a high resolution design and disappear well. It also suggests that they were not necessarily designed for comfort.

Proac D48R Read the Tone Audio review

Yes, the state of the art loudspeaker design still involves serious compromise.

I'll compromise on anything this side of a screechy treble to get a vivid midrange. Its the best way for me to forget that I'm listening to loudspeakers.

For some others the goal may be the imagery / disappearing act combination. Devore seem to be a modern take on the classic DC Tannoys from the past with their luxury bass.

 

My 2 cents on the Harbeth (and other wide baffle designs):

The Harbeth speakers - the larger ones included - do a surprising level of "disappearing" as sound sources. Not what you’d expect from looking at them. So their design philosophy does seem to be working to quite a degree.

That said, Harbeths don’t "disappear" as sound sources as well as any number of other speakers that take the "dampen resonances" approach.

Thus far I’ve auditioned 3 brands of the wide baffle, resonating cabinet approach: Audio Note, Harbeth, Devore. In each case they disappeared more than their shape lead me to expect. But also in every case, that aspect was pretty easily bettered by other resonance-controlled speakers (e.g. my Thiels and others). In the wide baffle/resonating designs, I always sense some level of "fill in" between the sonic images. This can lead to a nice cohesiveness and richness to the sound, but can also become a bit more confused with more complex material, with a lot of instruments playing in the mix.

One of my go-to tests for this are some cuts from the Lost Angeles Guitar Quartet, in which 4 similar sounding guitars are simultaneously playing complex parts. The wide-baffle speakers I auditioned could make it harder to untangle one guitar from the next, vs my Thiels and some other low-resonance speaker designs.

The trade off is that wonderful bigness and warmth of tone from the wide baffle designs. I’ve really enjoyed what I’ve heard from Devore speakers which is why I’m contemplating buying a pair from the "O" series.

Can't say enough about how good I find the GoldenEar Triton Reference speakers.
Hopefully you could try them in your house if you are interested (borrow overnight from a friendly dealer).  And you'd have $7K of your budget left over...

@soix You are correct in that the resonances are easily measurable.

However it’s Alan Shaw’s opinion (designer/Mr Harbeth) based on historic research carried out by the BBC that the best way of dealing with these inevitable resonances is to allow them to move below the threshold of hearing. Then it won’t matter how they measure as long as you can’t ever hear them.

Harbeth argue that brute force methods of resonance control only serve to move them upwards in frequency to where our hearing is most sensitive. Any coloration in the midband, even the mildest, can quickly destroy the illusion of reality.

Since loudspeakers cabinets will always resonate due to considerable internal pressures caused by the movement of the drive units and the harm they do as they try to force their way out of the box and back through the drive unit itself, something must be done to reduce this pressure. But what?

The Harbeth approach of lossy cabinet design is one method of dealing with these resonances. Doing away with the cabinet altogether as in Open Baffle designs is another, but that has its own issues.

Still, I prefer either of those approaches to the solid 2 inch thick, glued, screwed, reinforced cabinet wall approaches where something beautiful can so easily get lost.

@cd318 -- agree with your point about cabinet resonances, but given that I was surprised at your Harbeth recommendation.  From John Atkinson's measurements of the 40.1:

"There are no obvious discontinuities in the impedance traces that would suggest the presence of panel resonances. However, that big, minimally braced cabinet is considerably more lively than the norm; there are many closely spaced resonances detectable on all surfaces. Fig.2, for example, is a cumulative spectral-decay plot calculated from the output of an accelerometer fastened to the name plate on the rear panel. Many ridges of delayed energy can be seen between 80 and 250Hz, and while these varied in strength depending where on the panels I placed the accelerometer, there was no position at which they were absent. The point of this behavior, of course, is to make the cabinet panels floppy enough that the inevitable resonances will be low enough in frequency that they fall below the region where they will have audible consequences. This is the opposite of conventional enclosure design, in which panels are made as stiff as possible to push the frequencies of the resonances above the region where they will lead to coloration."

Apparently the speaker is designed to somewhat compensate or maybe even use cabinet resonances to its advantage, but it appears to do very little to move them to below the threshold of hearing.  Between the thinly-braced cabinet, the associated resonances from 80-250Hz (certainly not below the threshold of hearing), and the wide baffle I'm frankly baffled as to how these speakers disappear at all.  While they seem to make it work somehow, the Harbeths seemed like an odd choice given your initial statement.

Disappearing speakers have minimal audible cabinet resonances. They're still there but below threshold of hearing.

Harbeth M40.2 s or TDZ 712s are well worth considering. Like any loudspeaker in existence they'll have faults for sure, but cabinet colorations won't be one of them. Both spooky good on imagery too.

Planars are also noted for obvious low cabinet resonance but I've not heard one here in the UK I could recommend. Quads just don't sound right with Pop to me. Or maybe they are just too honest for their own good! 

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/hifi-speakers/monitor-40-2-domestic.php

http://www.eclipse-td.com/uk/products/td712zmk2/index.html

ctsooner said..."There would have to be other upgrades for a full 10k mark up,"

Agreed!!!

Tom, I agree with you of course.  I love Johnny. He's one of the few around who isn't about the up sell. He actually does the down sell as he knows how to put a true system together.  He also sells other than Vandersteen's like Proac and B&W adn some others.  He gets lumped in as a Vandy only guy and honestly, of all the Vandy dealers I know nationally (most of them), they all listen to the customer and show them everything and let the customer choice without pushing unlike so many other dealers I've met.  

aolmrd1241644 posts05-11-2018 10:10amctsooner said... " the Quatro should be in the 25k range (with a carbon midrange upgrade)."

ct...I do appreciate your input and sharing that knowledge with us in concern of the Quatro CT...sounds like a great speaker system indeed.

But,I have to ask though...do you really think with the addition of the carbon midrange it could possibly justify a $10,000.00 + price increase for the Quatro? That would be one uber- expensive drive unit!!! Report this

Do I think it's worth the upgrade?  If someone had the money, it surely would be.  That carbon fiber driver that Richard designed and produces (well he makes the cone and sends it out to have the custom driver made) is sick good.  Just is.  It makes (to my ears) a HUGE difference in the mids.  Just look at the 5CT's.  it's so much more than just better bass.  If you have heard the 5ct's, then you would understand why I say what I do.  There are so many directions he could go with his CF technology, that it's nuts.  I have heard other speakers with a carbon type of driver, but none come close to the Vandersteen one's to my ears.  Some are not implemented the way they could be for the best musical sound, but for marketing purposes.  

There would have to be other upgrades for a full 10k mark up, but not much.  Yes, I think it would put that speaker in a totally different class, but it should since it's also in the 25k range (hypothetically).  

If you live in the tri state you should get yourself to Audio Connections  and talk to John
I did that myself and got a pair Vandersteen Quatros  best purchase  I have ever made in    
audio biggest improvement in my system to date  John can dial in the speakers to sound great in any size room   A few thing to finish then I will post my new system   

Don't forget the Joseph Audio Perspectives if you can find a JA dealer -- it'll be worth your while given what you're looking for. 

See Mick at Quintessence Audio in Morton Grove, IL.

I would suggest a listen to Focals and BW.

For focal I think brand new Kanta 2 or used Sopra 3.  

For BW I would go brand new 803d3 or used 802d3.

Another to consider is used Sonus Faber Futura.

i have heard Vandersteen 5a carbon.  Pretty good too.

Check check out Gato speakers from Denmark.  

Is there a speaker with flatter frequency response, better imaging or that disappears better at ~$15k than KEF Reference 3? I am not particularly a fan or a detractor, but it certainly fits the bill.

Hi Pilrem
I agree with the DeVore Brand. If you have the patience try to find a used pair of Silverbacks. If not then check out the Gibbon X. For 15K the best investment you will ever make, perhaps the last if you match them with the right set of cables. The Frequency response is only matched by speakers 2-3x the price.

I am not a spokesman, but have witnessed first hand comparisons of the DeVore's to other speakers. I started out with B&W a great starter but as you grow you look for better options especially with the gear you have. Best of luck
www.devorefidelity.com
Check out Thales Cables
www.aaudioimports.com

ctsooner said... " the Quatro should be in the 25k range (with a carbon midrange upgrade)."

ct...I do appreciate your input and sharing that knowledge with us in concern of the Quatro CT...sounds like a great speaker system indeed.

But,I have to ask though...do you really think with the addition of the carbon midrange it could possibly justify a $10,000.00 + price increase for the Quatro? That would be one uber- expensive drive unit!!!

The Quatro CT's with your specific gear are a fantastic match. ARC and Vandersteen pair beautifully. At $14,600 the Quatro's are a top pick for an under $15k price point.

guswatte5 posts05-11-2018 2:03amCurious how you thought the Quatros compared to the Carbon 5as?
G

The 5's are just a better speaker.  No doubt about it, but I own the Quatro and feel that they are also very special. Honestly, to me, I feel strongly that the Quatro is the sweet spot in their line.  Would I have liked a carbon fiber midrange too? Yes, I would have, but for ME, I just couldn't afford the 5's.  IF you have the money, then you will get a much better speaker in all aspects.  The bass is bigger and that midrange with the matching tweeter is incredible.  Personally I feel that the 5 is a GREAT bridge between the Quatro and the 7.  It should be selling for over 40k and the Quatro should be in the 25k range (with a carbon midrange upgrade).  

That all said, I did put my money where my typing is and got the Quatro and am not looking back.  

We need AudioTroy over here. He'll set everyone straight.

Curious how you thought the Quatros compared to the Carbon 5as?
G

As no one has yet suggested auditioning open baffle speakers , two brands worth considering are : Spatial Audio and Pure Audio Project . I'm more satisfied with my Spatials than any speaker I've yet heard in my 50+ years as an audiophile . OB has clarity like a panel speaker but with impact and bass of dynamic drivers . No boxes for me !
 Emerald Physics is another brand, but many of theirs require DSP units and multi-amping , so not as simple .
  Spatial has a trial period and return policy . Unsure of others .
Network with friends and audition with the same tracks of 2 or 3 CD's on every one .
   
Joe

DeVore Fidelity speakers are absolutely phenomenal.  Very happy with the pair I bought about 5 months ago after lots of searching.......

I would look at Totem and usher. I have had both and just moved up to the usher x-towers for a little less than $15k. The usher be-10 and be-20’s are also excellent sounding speakers.

John will take GREAT care of you. Yes, he can let you audition a varying array of speakers.  As Bob said I do own teh Quatro CT's and sold him my Treo's, but as he will tell you, I made him listen to them in my system first, lol....

There are a ton of gimmicky speakers on the market (IMHO).  I have heard so many different speakers from the one driver fits all mode (can never have a full range speaker sound as good as a speaker that has separated drivers that cover all ends of the spectrum.  

Crossoverless sounds great, but it just doesn't (law of physics) have the extension and then you lose the fun of rock or orchestra etc...  Using a great crossover with the best parts, will give you a crossover that most will never hear in their system.  There is a reason that 99% of speaker manufacture's use two or more drivers in their speakers.  YMMV.

I'm only a Vandersteen owner because they make the best speaker to my ears in the 25k and under speaker market.  We all love our speakers or we would never have paid for them, lol. ;)....  I do know that the majority of folks never actually audition more than three different makers of speakers when purchasing.  All too many just read about 'cool and new' stuff that is 'reviewed' and go with the flavor of the month. 

I've been in audio all too long to get caught up wiht flavor of the month. I listen to a lot of live music when I can and I want my system to recreate as much of that tonality and extension (without fatigue) in MY room.  I feel blessed to be able to afford a 25k speaker and that's why I went with the Quatro CT's.  I have enjoyed Maggies and others, but in the end, the Steen's haven't been knocked off the pedestal yet.  When they are, then I'll gladly switch, but these proprietary carbon tweeters are not just giving me gobs of micro and macro detail (where the emotion is), but also crazy dynamics when it's on the track and so much extension without any fatigue.

Also, please don't get swayed by someone claiming that speakers are genre sensitive as TOOO MANY do now days.  To me, that's a fallacy that is perpetuated by companies who's speakers are majorly lacking. 

A properly designed speaker will play everything great or everything poorly, lol....  Just ask any top designer and they will agree.  I have spoken to a few about this adn that's the only reason I make this statement.  

I would be surprised if Atma-Sphere and Magnepan couldn't offer an audition, but the recommendation of Audio Perfection by mr_m would be a good route.

B

Check out Decibel audio for the Harbeth 40.2.   Musicdirect for atc or saturday audio exchange Monitor gold.  I personally love the Harbeth sound.  Good luck!

Audio Perfection in Minneapolis, Minn. Carries Vandersteen, Magneplanar, Sonus Faber, Spendor, Wilson and others I can't remember.  UltraFi in Milwaukee is excellent. John Spelt is a true 2 channel set-up guy. He helped me get my Vandersteen Treo Ct's when I still lived in Wisc. There's also a place up in Green Bay called HI-Fi Heaven that carries many speaker systems and features Legacy Audio Loudspeakers which are great choices also.

It's a shame that you don't get a complimentary discount on air-fare and a hotel room in NYC for example (if you're looking to spend over 10 to 20 grand or more) so you can audition systems at as many audio stores as possible.  If only "someone" could sponsor such a program, the positive outcomes might be extremely beneficial for both buyer and seller. I even
saw a similar offer by a dealer in the past if you were seriously interested in a (pretty expensive) speaker system- i.e. they would pay for your plane tickets.  IMO, It's worth a shot with the diminishing number of stores offering a 1st class audition.  

It's a shame that you don't get a complimentary discount on air-fare and a hotel room in NYC for example (if you're looking to spend over 10 to 20 grand or more) so you can audition systems at as many audio stores as possible.  If only "someone" could sponsor such a program, the positive outcomes might be extremely beneficial for both buyer and seller. I even
saw a similar offer by a dealer in the past if you were seriously interested in a (pretty expensive) speaker system- i.e. they would pay for your plane tickets.  IMO, It's worth a shot with the diminishing number of stores offering a 1st class audition.