New PrimaLuna versus used Audio Research preamp?

I have never owned a PL, but have heard them, I think I would go with a Rogue before I did a PL.  I had an LS-27, loved it, but upgraded to REF 6.  With SS amplifiers, it has tight bass, soundstage, and clarity.  I do not see a need to upgrade again (unless tubes dry up).  Even if they were comparable products, I have been burned by so many Chinese products, I would go American all the way.

A friend and I compared the Primaluna to the ARC LS-28 at a store last week. The LS-28 was better. The Ref 5SE is supposed to be better than the LS-28.

Safebelayer I laughed at your post. You obviously have a beef with Kevin and Primaluna? I would ignore his opinions OP.  I've bought and sold tons of gear over the years and I can politely say Primaluna is very good especially at its price point and it's definitely not boring.  Rolling tubes does change the flavor of this preamp. To many people will agree. 

@bobbydd 

First, go and listen to each preamp. With what amp are you pairing it?

Second, what sound signature are you wanting? Warmth, dynamics, resolution, soundstage, clarity, richness, etc.

Third, in my experience with PL gear, including the evo preamps the OP listed, produce boring sound. It's neither tube-ish nor solid state. It doesn't have the warmth of say a VAC pre nor the dynamics of a VTL 6.5 (highly recommended) or the ARC 5se. The ARC does not have the warmth of a VAC either.

Fourth, though there are many Kevin Deal fanboys, there are as many who consider him less than a desirable salesman. There are plenty of good and bad service reviews of upscale. There are plenty of other dealers and products that service and sell their products without the uncertainty of Kevin/upscale. I would suggest looking at VAC, VTL, and Ayre (the latter, if you're willing to try solid state). These companies don't change models nearly as frequently as ARC. That said, the 5se is excellent and its resale value will continue to be excellent. PL does not boast such high resale value.

Finally, PL products do not, imo, alter their sound signature by tube rolling. Very few new tube products offer much benefit by tube rolling other than micro differences. If tube rolling is of interest, Decware's products experience notable changes.

Goodluck in your search.

@big_greg.  Definitely agree most components lose a lot of value buying new. That's why I typically buy used.  

Kevin the build quality and many fantastic reviews is the main reason I bought the EVO 400. Plus the fact switching tubes I can tailor the sound to my liking which is very important to me. 

You need to look in the box when you buy a preamp.  It's where manufacturers make margin, and bullshit abounds.  Go to a restaurant, and it's $9 for a burger and fries, and $3.50 for a Diet Coke.  Coke is water and syrup. 

Preamps are the Diet Coke of audio. Take a company that flags itself as the "Preamp Specialist"  Put aside the silly auto biasing tubes and new power supply designs, look at an internal picture of their $4500 preamp which, by the way, is a "Factory Direct" price.  

There are no magic boxes in preamps.  It's parts and engineering.  If they espouse the "minimalist design" B.S. then it should cost less, not more.  That's why someone may want to be a "preamp specialist". 

More like "margin specialist".  Just like headphones and earbuds.   

I wouldn't buy a preamp without using Google Images or that website hifi-inside.com  It used to be called HiFi-shock.com as I recall.  

@samzx12 Your preamp has the Holy Trinity of tube preamp design:  Point to point wiring. Dual Mono all the way to the power switch. Tube rectification.  

@samzx12 It looked like the OP was weighing a used ARC vs. new PL.  That's great you got most of your investment back when you sold your PL.  Typically, you're lucky to get 50-60% of new price on most items.  I think Primaluna has a lot going for them.  I prefer the looks, sound, and build of the ARC.  Others might like the PL better for the same reasons.

Big Greg the PL will not lose that much value especially buying used.  I sold a PL Dialogue Premium integrated a few years ago for not much less than I paid for it new. Currently I have a EVO 400 preamp and it's been a joy so far. One of the best things about it I can roll tubes to change the flavor somewhat which is something ARC can't do with the 6H30 based models.  A dealer did tell me and take it for what it's worth,  several of his customers were trading in their Ref series preamps for the EVO series. How high up the Ref chain I do not know but I'm guessing Ref 5SE and down.  

I haven't heard the newest Primaluna gear, but my impression of it over a couple of extended listening sessions that it was more "tubey" and very euphonic.  That is what got me interested in tubes actually.

Having said that, I own a LS26 and a Vsi55 ARC integrated, and have heard Tomic601's 5se.  

If you have the funds for the 5se, jump on it.  It's likely to be an end-game piece, and if it's not, you'll recover most of what you spent for it if you're buying used, while even heavily discounted, the PL will lose a lot of it's value if you try to flip it, which you will probably more likely to do.

Some other options to consider.  The Modwright preamps are really nice.  I owned a LS100 for a long time.  I replaced it with a Herron Audio VTSP-360 which I highly recommend.

“the LS series is sterile and SS-like.”

This is why many make the distinction between the LS and Reference series of ARC line stages. They aren’t one and the same.

only ARC preamp I like is the Ref 10. the LS series is sterile and SS-like. 

I'd try a Primaluna first and roll the tubes. or an LTA MicroZOTL.

You might want to consider an SP-10MKII. Or a Ref 2. Ref2 had tube regulation as well as a 5AR4 for rectification. And 6922, which had the magic missing from 6H30 preamps. IMHO. SP-10MKII is amazing. SP-11MKII is also great,but a hybrid and has a different presentation that is an acquired taste.

Nobody I know can answer how any of these compare to a PrimaLuna without listening in an instantaneous A/B comparison that is level-matched to within .5dB, and double-blind. It’s not possible. If anyone is in L.A. and has a REF 6 or similar they want to bring out, we can host. And who knows. I might be wrong. We did this for some Agon guys years ago with some LAOAC members, and the VSI75. What was shocking was how close good gear is to each other.

If you strip away the obvious prejudice of getting a massive discount from a high, retail price and look at circuit design, quality of parts, and sound I think you would be rather shocked.

I own a REF75SE  which I love so far but my gut feeling is everyone here is recommending ARC preamps is because of the name and reputation which I get however, have the same guys recommending ARC owned or had the EVO series preamp in their system? 

Definitely the AR. I own an older LS26 , which I am very happy with. I have also heard the Ref models which I think are outstanding. IMHO, AR preamps don’t sound very tubey but a nice balance between tube and ss 

Has anyone here actually listened or compared both? Has anyone seen the build quality of the EVO series of preamp? 

Here a link to visually identifying the "DR" version.

http://www.aca.gr/index/hiend/hiendArticles?row=1988

DeKay

Audio Research.    It will still be worth close to what you paid should you sell it.  PL resale will be half the day you take it home.   

ARC for sure , easy to sell if no like it but I doubt it .

Iam also looking for a reference AUdio Research preamp, Iam using LS2b audio research linestage , on one of my systems, it always amaze me, though maybe a 17se is good enough for my main system. Charles I agree with you.

@bobbydd 

I looked at your posted audio system and it is very nice. I am quite familiar with the ARC Reference 2 MK II and the Reference 5SE is a considerable improvement in my opinion. I have read very good comments/reviews in regard to the PL EVO 400 preamp (But I have not heard it). Given the components in your current system, the REF 5SE seems the better fit.

Charles

ARC REF5 SE is a no brainer, If you can source some genuine pre 1990 Reflector Corps 6h30- DR’s and GEC 6550A for the regulator you will take the units musical performance up another level.

I have > 5K trouble free hours of blissful listening on my Ref 5se. Some PL experience but not ownership. In another thread, i am a self admitted fan boy cult member…ha. One could accurately say i fall into that camp with ARC preamps… but i have also had on long term loan a few other excellent preamps..notably Ayre R series, VTL, Lamm, ….

I think an inside track on a well cared for known REF5se is worth something…

On the 5se, budget or plan for a 6550 in the power supply every 1k hours and 2-3x that for the 5 small signal tubes. Just FYI.

I'm currently looking at an ARC Preamp, myself.  If you don't mind sharing, what is the price range for the 5SE you are looking at?  Thanks.

The Ref 5SE is an incredible preamp and I have no plans to replace mine.

Used ARC Ref 5e every time. It's in a different league altogether.

Since opinions are being solicited, here’s mine. I believe that the used ARC Reference 5 SE is the better sounding and higher quality line stage.  In the long term I feel it will prove to be more satisfying and something you can build an audio system around as a foundational component.

Charles

Easy, used Audio Research Ref 5SE. I owned one for nearly ten years… now I have an ARC REF 6se. I also own a Prima Luna integrated. ARC’s preamps are world class. They have been at the forefront of the best sound possible for decades. Although they took a little stumble on the REF 1 and 2… after that got back on track with the Reference series. You can see my system under my user ID.

The REF5SE is one you could be proud to is for decades. The more ARC you add the better and better the sound gets. Assuming you like detailed, natural, and highly musical sound. If you like highly detailed at any cost and artificially over accentuated slam, then no, this is not the right direction… but neither is PrimaLuna.

Heard a few PM pres and not impressed but that ARC can sound special mated to right amp IMHO