Check the wiring of your speakers for phase correct.
New Preamplifier Testing (Poor sound)
Looking for help...
I got a new preamplifier to replace my integrated amplifier, but the sound is extremely underwhelming. Biggest issues are sound distinction and clarity (sounds dull) and field depth (sounds narrow/flat) with less depth and width regarding the sound field when listening to stored digital music.
Old set up:
Innuos Zenith -> (USB) Gustard X26 Pro -> (XLR) Cambridge Azur 851a -> (RCA) Cambridge Azur 851w -> KEF LS50 Meta's and Kube 12b subwoofer.
New set up:
Innuos Zenith -> (USB) Gustard X26 Pro -> (XLR) Rotel 1590MKii Preamp -> (XLR) Cambridge Azur 851w -> KEF LS50 Meta's and Kube 12b subwoofer.
I'm really surprised this new preamplifier was such a drop off in sound quality compared to my older, cheaper integrated amp, but wondering if there are any tests I could do to maybe change something to better figure out if its the preamp, or rather something I'm doing. Looking at all the extra digital inputs in the Rotel that my 851a doesn't have makes me think that maybe the 851a is just a more adept component at passing along my DAC's signal, where the Rotel is geared towards using it's internal DAC.
The Rotel is run in a "Tone Bypass" mode via the XLR connections to bypass the internal DAC.
Just wondering why the Rotel would choke off the sound so much while the older integrated amp make things sound so deep and bright when paired with the power amp?
A friend suggested running my DAC straight to my power amp and see if the sound was back to old (or at least better).
Any other suggestions I should try before I send the preamplifier back?
I got a new preamplifier to replace my integrated amplifier, but the sound is extremely underwhelming. Biggest issues are sound distinction and clarity (sounds dull) and field depth (sounds narrow/flat) with less depth and width regarding the sound field when listening to stored digital music.
Old set up:
Innuos Zenith -> (USB) Gustard X26 Pro -> (XLR) Cambridge Azur 851a -> (RCA) Cambridge Azur 851w -> KEF LS50 Meta's and Kube 12b subwoofer.
New set up:
Innuos Zenith -> (USB) Gustard X26 Pro -> (XLR) Rotel 1590MKii Preamp -> (XLR) Cambridge Azur 851w -> KEF LS50 Meta's and Kube 12b subwoofer.
I'm really surprised this new preamplifier was such a drop off in sound quality compared to my older, cheaper integrated amp, but wondering if there are any tests I could do to maybe change something to better figure out if its the preamp, or rather something I'm doing. Looking at all the extra digital inputs in the Rotel that my 851a doesn't have makes me think that maybe the 851a is just a more adept component at passing along my DAC's signal, where the Rotel is geared towards using it's internal DAC.
The Rotel is run in a "Tone Bypass" mode via the XLR connections to bypass the internal DAC.
Just wondering why the Rotel would choke off the sound so much while the older integrated amp make things sound so deep and bright when paired with the power amp?
A friend suggested running my DAC straight to my power amp and see if the sound was back to old (or at least better).
Any other suggestions I should try before I send the preamplifier back?
33 responses Add your response
Okay... Here was my set up and here was my listening soundtrack. Rotel 1590MK2 Innuos Zenith (USB) -> Gustard X26 Pro (XLR) -> Rotel 1590 MKII (XLR pre out) -> Azur 851w power amp -> Kef LS50 Meta's and lube 12b subwoofer (line out). Cambridge Audio Azur 851a Innuos Zenith (USB) -> Gustard X26 Pro (XLR) -> Azur 851a (RCA pre out) -> Azur 851w power amp -> Kef LS50 Meta's and lube 12b subwoofer (line out). Yamaha A-S2100 Innuos Zenith (USB) -> Gustard X26 Pro (XLR) -> Yamaha S-2100 (RCA pre out) -> Azur 851w power amp -> Kef LS50 Meta's and lube 12b subwoofer (line out). Technics SU-G700 Innuos Zenith (USB) -> Gustard X26 Pro (RCA) -> SU-G700 (RCA pre out) -> Azur 851 power amp -> Kef LS50 Meta's and lube 12b subwoofer (line out) Listening Soundtrack Genghis From - Exit Perfect Mind//Ritual Circle Old Man Gloom - Volcano Black Wing - Is This Real Life, Jesus Christ? Broadcast 2000 - The View Adian Knight - Renovations Ida Mae - Chasing Lights PJ Harvey - Long Snake Moan Freedom Fry - Summer in the City Starcadian Remix With Lions - Our Great Rise Death from Above 1979 - Little Girl The Disappeared - Greater Omaha Bjork - Hunter Audioslave - Cochise The Dandy Warhols - Nietzsche True Widow - OOTPV Sisyphus - Lion's Share Run the Jewels - Oh My Darling Shame - Human, for a Minute Danzig - Can't Speak Odonis Odonis - Promise The grand winner was the Technics SU-G700 (Azur 851a #2, Yamaha A-S2100 #3 and Rotel bringing up the rear). Really wasn't even close! |
Honestly I didn't order other preamps. My intergrated amp really sounds good, so I'm gonna give two others a try (all in the same price point). My thinking is... If I spend $300 in return shipping but end up keeping my Azur 851a I saved myself 2k. So I'm gonna tryout a Yamaha A-S2100 and the Technics SU-G700 (both $2,500). We'll see... It'll give me something to do and hopefully close the door on my system for some time. I just want a wide spread and three completely different takes on what I'm listening to. Analog iAmp Digital iAmp Analog iAmp (one tier up A-S2100 @ $3,500 price point) Digital Pre-amp |
I ordered two other units to try out, and we'll see. Gonna have a 4 way shoot out winner take all. I just need a little time with the Rotel and then give the old iAmp a try again and see. I've been working so much lately I finally got to listen to like 15 minutes of music the other day before my wife told me to "knock it off". Just need a solid music listening day for each unit. |
| Post removed |
"...the sound is extremely underwhelming. Biggest issues are sound distinction and clarity (sounds dull) and field depth (sounds narrow/flat) with less depth and width...".
OP, these are very serious defects. Break-in time is not going to fix them. Next time, insist on an extended home audition of a previously broken in piece. |
@douglas_schroeder That's a great article, and sadly I was trying for months to track down a Azur 851e, but sadly they're impossible to come across and I lost out on bidding on a used one that sold for over $2,200 and was many years old. But yeah, I'm really impressed with the bulk of Cambridge Audio's stuff. Excited to run my851w amps in monoblock mode and just trying to sort out the "pre" portion of the system, but maybe I'll just stick with the 851a. Just need to give the Rotel a little more time and attention. Also gonna look at Yamaha and Technics out of my own curiosity after doing some reading and you-tubing. |
NEVER pay attention to burn/break in when assessing gear. It's how horrible long term decisions are made. NEVER give inordinate time to a loser component. Once you have tried your permutations, you're done. I'm not surprised at all if the Rotel is much worse holistically. Read my two Audiophile Law articles at Dagogo.com re. Burm In (also re: break in) I reviewed the Azur 840 pre and amp for Dagogo.com |
The rotes is not good at all , for your money send it back buy the $899 Schiit vacuum tube preamp with excellent resistive volume attenuator , not cheap $15 Alps volume pot thst many use and Rob detail , the Schiit preamp is very dependable and tubes add to soundstage image depth man6 very good write ups , cables are what ? Very important Wireworld makes excellen5 quality, value quality per $$dollar cables ,and for th3 record if running Ethernet most important Sonic difference is from Ethernet switch to streamer , wire world star light exceptional performance value ,Ethernet cable.and I have tried a bunch .I am putting the platinum 8 in this space soon though but a bit $$ with 20% off not too bad , : and Ethernet regen from uptone audio , no 🧠 er many excellent reviews for $640 👍 |
@vladedelman and @hshifi Thanks for the help! DAC volume is low, my streamer and preamp are managing the volume controls (Rotel at 50% volume and Zenith/Squeeze Box doing the rest), honestly I really agree with you all on letting it warm up and needing to leave it on (which I haven't done). So I'm gonna start there and I really think, just as you said, that I need to swap in and out a different preamp to try. So I'm looking into that also. I have about 55 days to try this, but honesty I might try to get a couple of other preamps and amps to do a side by side by side test over the next two weeks. I have a little plan, and gonna see if time wise I can pull it off, if so I'll have a pretty cool preamp-amp shoot out taking place at my home. Can't wait to see my wifes face when it happens 😆 |
Hello, First: Is your volume all the way up on the DAC or in fixed mode. Sometimes when you attenuate the volume on a DAC or streamer you will lose some of that great sound. Second: sometimes some preamps do not sound great with some amps. See if you can borrow another brand of preamp from a friend or store or maybe see if you can find something on the forums to let you know what works and what does not. Last but not least: Try a thicker gauge power cord. It can be an inexpensive $50 cord but try get up to 14 or even better 12 gauge. Maybe you have a friend or a store that will let you borrow or demo one. I have tested this several times. You will need about three days of it being plugged in. This is because you need to charge the capacitors and let it settle plus have time to do some critical listening. So try to leave it powered on during that period of time. Please do not plug it in and right away do your listening test. If you are in the Chicagoland area this store I frequently buy from lets you demo or try before you buy. https://holmaudio.com/ Not just cables but all gear except turntables. I hope this helped. |
I used to have a Rotel 1570 preamp (not the same, but close enough) and there are a couple of things that I remember the most: 1) Soundstage was very hard to get and required speakers to be set up "just right" or it sounded flat. 2) Sound changes for better after being on for an hour or so. After a while, I was leaving it on 24/7 3) Noise floor was crazy high, which made it seem less dynamic than others. (Plugin headphones directly in, and see if you can hear it) 4) Built-in DAC was just OK. To me it sounded like everything going through internal DAC had some EQ applied to it, and I did not like what it did. 5) Extremely sensitive to power sources. Tested with few power conditioners, surge protectors, and a regenerator, and each one sounds very different from another and worse than directly into the wall in most cases. Just having a backup power supply (Eaton 9px) plugged in on the same circuit (even when not feeding preamp), generated terrible distortion in the midrange. |
Can you leave it on for 24/7 or 14. Quick break in. Blanket a pair of speakers and put it on 10-30 % and let it play.. You'll be well within the window.. Use some good cables too. Hook it up and let it percolate. In 48 - 72 hours if it isn't a LOT better. You gotta wonder.. Cables need a bit to settle too. But don't listen.. Then pull the blankets at 48 and 72.. I can tell if it's going to change the volume will go down around 36-48 hours and back up by 72 hours. Every time for me.. Everything just gets cleaner, tighter, the brightness goes away...(mids come forward more actually) Regards |
Ok...I have had the same experience going from older separates to a more modern integrated amp. The highly touted Yamaha AS1200 seemed the perfect choice for me. I was tired of getting up and down for volume controls with my 70's dated system, sans remote. The Yamaha was built on the same design as my old amp, both dual mosfet. Yamaha had a remote. I was sure I was set. AGGGHHHHH.... the unit made my very favorite speakers sound like MUD! How could this be? Tone controls were NO rescue. Plugged in my Monitor Audio Silver 8's to the AS1200. The already good speakers sounded WONDERFUL! Tried some Energy C3's with the same results. I have enjoyed my HPM 100's for 42 years and will not part with them Thus my AS1200 is up for sale. Too refined a unit for my old babies I guess. Previous set up - NAD 114 Pre Amp / Sherwood S6040 CP amp. Sold both,(had to pay for that Yamaha @2799) and now there is not a 114 to be found. Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad DAY!!!! |
I have the Gustard X26 Pro and it has some issues running into an amp direct. I actually got a replacement under warranty for it. The second unit has been mostly good so far but there are still some minor gremlins DAC direct to amp. Luckily for me I hate DAC direct to amp so I have tried a few preamps with the Gustard. - Topping pre90 - Benchmark HPA4 - CODA 07x They have no issue with the Gustard but the amp connected to them did. The HPA4 and CODA 07x was great with all amps. The Topping pre90 was not good with 2 amps and excellent with the Benchmark AHB2. I was told that the bad sound on one of the amps was likely an impedance mismatch between the pre and amp. By bad sound I mean a listless flat sound. The other bad sounding amp combo was not bad sound but too much gain. Just some observations the may help you. BTW - I have the KEF LS50 + KC62 sub + Topping pre90 + Topping D90se DAC + Benchmark AHB2. It is a very nice sounding system. If the Gustard X26 Pro was not so big I would have gotten a second X26 Pro. |
I'd consider Cambridge to Rotel sideways move more than upgrade. Dac direct can be preferable to some preamps. IME, high quality active preamp is way to go. Integrated could be good or not, some are nothing but amps with passive volume control. Still, I'd rather have so so integrated with passive volume control or stand alone passive pre vs. lower quality active preamp. With cheaper active preamp you get undesired colorations, forego this with dac straight in, passive volume in integrated or stand alone passive pre. |
Make sure you have at least 200 hours of play on it. It may improve in sound for over 400 hours. It is unlikely it will not sound better than your old one when broken in. iI is very unlikely running your DAC output into your amp will sound good. It is in vary rare instances with extremely compatible equipment will that sound better. |
All good points, as far as "break in time" I only have a 60 day window to try and return. So that I'm kinda limited on. 1. DAC to amp and compare (cut out preamp). 2. Try RCA connections to pre and power amp. 3. Bust out the old integrated amp again compare after both of the above. That's my plan as of now. I’ll 100% let you all know what I come up with. Thanks! |
| Post removed |