Latik,
I tried Innuos Sense briefly when first out and I had issues with functionality
so I went back to Roon where my libraries reside.
I have heard respected makers state the reason they do not incorporate
Roon is the SQ degradation they found. What they do not say is how they
must expose everything and change formats to accommodate Roon.
And likely pay Roon something. So it is not an exciting prospect to some.
Recently I heard Linn folks say they worked out "an accomodation" with
Roon that they could live with hence are now Roon Ready.
So there is a question of bias by makers and using SQ as their defense.
Is there any result of blind testing of Sense vs Roon ? Love to hear it.
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“Curious if that bottleneck would become even more pronounced with a better DAC? ”
@toro3
A better DAC will be more revealing of any shortcomings of components (source) upstream. Since OP owns a very good DAC and already optimized the Ethernet connection by adding ENO, the next logical step to take is; upgrade the streamer.
@jeffseight
No doubt Innuos is good but another most important thing to consider when choosing a streamer is the control app you will be using to manage your music library and browsing music from cloud based streaming services. The Aurender’s conductor app is by far the best app in terms of simplicity, robustness and SQ. This is a critical part of the experience with streamers and usually the difference maker once you get past the hardware implementation. Yes, you pay a bit more upfront with Aurender but you’re getting a lot more in return. The outstanding build quality, excellent customer support and an app interface that’s easy to navigate without impacting the sound quality unlike ROON which we all know, not the best sounding software.
PS: Have you compared ROON with Sense App, what do you think?
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@blisshifi
I was in a similar dilemma as you when I had the NAD M50.2 hooked up to a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. Both were good components, but I was missing something, so I went on a DAC hunt. I moved through a number of DACs, including a Lampizator Baltic 3 with over $1K of tubes, but ended up returning it. When I decided down the other path and added an Aurender to the chain, it made a much bigger difference than continuing to upgrade
A clear example of a lower quality streamer mitigating the performance of a good quality DAC. This is why placing over emphasis on the DAC and relegating the streamer/source component to 2nd class status is a bad idea. A compelling case could be presented that in a good/high resolving audio system the source and DAC have equal sonic influence. Lower resolution systems will very likely obscure the impact.
Charles
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@fthompson251 I am an Aurender dealer, but audiophile first, so take this with a grain of salt. I used to own a Modwright-modded CXN V2, the one with a tube stage, in a second system. While the upgraded DAC section was quite good, the streamer was quite lackluster. I once put it into my primary system a few years back, where I had a NAD M50.2 dedicated server/streamer going into the the CXN. The NAD did a good job of cleaning up the sound. I've since become an Aurender dealer and moved away from the NAD. In September, I had a customer come by with his Modwright CXN V2, and he asked me to connect an Aurender N200 into it. I did so, and the difference was outstanding - much higher than the older M50.2 I had hooked up a year or so prior. It only took about 10-20 seconds of listening for the customer to tell me he was sold on the N200.
I was in a similar dilemma as you when I had the NAD M50.2 hooked up to a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. Both were good components, but I was missing something, so I went on a DAC hunt. I moved through a number of DACs, including a Lampizator Baltic 3 with over $1K of tubes, but ended up returning it. When I decided down the other path and added an Aurender to the chain, it made a much bigger difference than continuing to upgrade my DAC.
The CXN is absolutely the weak link of the two. Feel free to contact me directly if you'd like to talk about the N200 or any other products Aurender has to offer.
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Recently I attended a Linn presentation of their newest DAC/Streamer
$45K? not sure. As they outlined all the new improvements I asked
which part improves the SQ most? Immediate reply-the DAC.
For your situation Aurender is good but pricey. The Innuos
Zen 3 I have Streams/Rips and stores. I paid $2,200 new and I think
they up about $1k today. Love the thing.
You should still be about $2k ahead if you go with Innuos
and that gets your new Terminator as well.
Yeah you owe me now fella!!
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@fthompson251 , thanks, I was simply illustrating a point that the backend is a better value IMO than the front end. Streaming is what it is, convenient, but on a high resolution system it generally won’t deliver what you can get from ripped files. I would rather spend the majority of my budget on the dac. In my system I use my Onkyo DP-X1 DAP via USB to stream. It can convert ripped files to DSD/DOP then pass it off to the Sony where it "remasters" it in DSD. When you get used to DSD quality from ripped files the streamed versions lose a step if you know what I mean.
This is from TAS:
Sony’s new “DSD Remastering Engine,” which according to Sony “combines a high-performance DSP (digital signal processing) and FPGA (field-programmable gate array) to convert any signal (my emphasis) into DSD128 signals. It was designed based on the know-how garnered from Sony’s 8-times oversampling and Extended SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology for professional recorders.” Yes, you read that right: the remastering engine can convert any and all PCM music files into DSD128 format, regardless of their original sample-or bit-rate.
@toro3 , on a highly resolving system the "bottleneck" starts with the network. Any noise on the network is passed downstream to the streamer and the DAC.
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Trying to put myself in you shoes: if I had said that I thought my streamer was the bottleneck, and I had purchased a DAC prior to the streamer - I would probably be wondering about how much of a bottleneck my Cambridge is while listening to my new Terminator. Curious if that bottleneck would become even more pronounced with a better DAC?
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@kota1
The OP is aiming at his end game digital front end. Your suggestions so far suggests an entry level streamer options which is clearly opposite OP’s goal.
+1, @charles1dad “A mediocre source will impede a good DAC”.
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@kota1 My streamer I have is better than a Node already. I am not sure you are following what level I am at already. My current DAC is no joke, it's really good.
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There is a lot more to be gained in a DAC. Until you have a flagship dac of your dreams, you can get by on a $300 streamer.
In other words the differnce between a $1000 and a $10000 dac is huge but the differnce between a $300 and a $5000 streamer is much less.
Jerry
I understand everyone has their own opinions and perspectives. I have to say that I patently disagree with this take. The quality of the digital source is very crucial to the overall sound quality of a digital front end. Yes, without question the DAC is an important component but it does not over ride the source component either.
A mediocre source will impede a good DAC. The “bits is bits” attitude is trite and superficial. A better quality streamer/music server will clearly make its contribution very apparent. In the OP’s scenario I recommend upgrading the streamer source first. I believe that the current DAC is of higher quality than the current streamer/server in use.
Charles
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@fthompson251
I'm surprised so many people like a bundled streaming solution too. You can get an iStream or a Bluesound Node to be used simply as a transport for less than $500. You can even use a mac or a PC as a transport. Then you can use the rest of your budget on the best dac with the features you really want. There are so many outstanding values on dacs and there are more choices at different price points.
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There is a lot more to be gained in a DAC. Until you have a flagship dac of your dreams, you can get by on a $300 streamer.
In other words the differnce between a $1000 and a $10000 dac is huge but the differnce between a $300 and a $5000 streamer is much less.
Jerry
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@charles1dad
I don’t intend to use Roon. I may in the future want to rip CD’s to a SS drive I can add one to the N200. From what I understand it (N200) has great SQ. How would the Innuos better it? In what way? More bang for the buck in that is will sound the same as the N200 for less money? I use Qobuz primarily, what’s the difference between these Pluse units and the Aurender? Don’t the Aurenders cache the stream into RAM and then play it back? Thank you for your feedback. I will take a look at them. I should add that I am seeking my end game streamer. (As funny as that may seem in this crazy rabbit hole hobby)
I am honestly surprised by the feedback as I expected the DAC to be the priority, and get the best DAC you can afford in an all digital playback system first. That would be the Terminator for me as I like the "house sound" I have so far.
Interesting bit of information that may or may not cause a stir. I today concluded that the CXN may be my bottle neck because when I tried different Power cords in it I really didn’t hear much change. However when I added the newer power cord to my DAC it was immediate that it improved, the same result when I added the same one to my CD transport although the DAc was affected more. (The power cord that is new to the system is the Wireworld Silver Electra 7 of which I now have two) My perspective on this is that the streamer isn’t of high enough resolution to to distinguish this or that PC’s make little impact on it. It is currently powered by a Shunyata Black mamba from years gone by. I have 4 of them, but have retired 2 of them to my LHY network switch and my LHY linear power supply. I have a Synergistic Reference Master Coupler due in Friday to try on my Preamp to see how it compares to the Shunyata. @ghdprentice YES, being retired offers many hours of music listening during the cold days of winter and fussing with the sound of the system. You are one that through your feed back on many threads have helped convince me to look into Aurender, since streamers are all they do. Secondly when I see sophisticated systems featured online the Aurender units are featured rather frequently.
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@fthompson251
Could you clarify ? Do you need a full function “music server “ or a streamer “network player” ? Obviously the Aurender N200 is the former. If all you need is a network player consider the new Pluse series of network players from Innuos. There are 3 different models/price points.Excellent streaming capability for less money than the music servers.
Charles
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I recently got an Aurender N200. It’s an awesome machine. I’m using it with a LAB 12 DAC 1 Reference and it is a great sounding combo. Has none of the nasties often associated with digital playback.
I bought the DAC after a short demo. It sounded great on the store and even better in my rig.
I bought the Aurender sight unseen. I traded a piece of gear toward it and it was a transaction that was easy on the wallet. My piece plus $850. It was a no brainer since I stream so much.
Build quality of Aurender products is off the chart. They are well built and the suppprt is excellent.
I bought the LAB 12 with the option to trade up within a year but it sounds so good I’m not sure I want to spend double. Not right now anyway
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just a suggestion:
SGC Sonic Transport
ROON
Optical Rendu into the Hermes
SGC
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I am retired as well. The value in my audio system has increased so much because I have time to listen to it each day.
I think if I were you I would upgrade your streamer. Each will make a difference but I think it very likely your streamer will make a much larger impact. The N200 would be a great choice. I own two Aurender streamers after owning a Aurlic Aries G2 and cannot praise them too much. The source is really important… Aurender are great sounding streamers.
DACs are important as well… but yours is pretty good. So I would make this your second upgrade.
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Streamer first, whichever one does what you want and makes you happy. .Just remember that you give up any chance of Roon with Aurender.
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@fthompson251
I would definitely buy Aurender N200 first, ahead of your Venus II and later step up to Terminator II when funds permits. You’ve already optimized ethernet by way of ENO in your system so that’s one less thing you need to worry :-)
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I’d go for a new streamer, like the N200, it’s an excellent choice,
but if you decide to go up the Denifrips ladder, I might be interested in the Venus ll.
😁
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I just got the Sony Signature dac/pre/headphone amp for around $2K the, TA-Z1HES and highly recommend it. It has features that are proprietary to Sony and you can use a streamer of your choice as a transport. I have tried a Sony SACD/CD/blueray player as a transport, a bluesound node and an Onkyo DAP as a streamer. I would not spend much on a streamer which you will be essentially using as a transport, I would budget more for the dac and get that first. This review of the Sony will give you a good idea of the features and SQ:
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