New DAC! Meitner MA3, Denafrips Terminator Plus, Holo May KTE, Mola Mola Tambaqui

ghasley, I'll guess SW1X?

@lordmelton

You still don’t get the relevance of "GOD SAVE THE QUEEN, MAN!"

It’s not that I don’t get the relevance, I don’t care enough to give it a second thought.

@chauncey

Is the HiFi Rose RS150B more about a touch screen and software than sound quality? How does it stack up against other $5k-$6k streamers?

The 150b is actually quite good when you think about the multiple functions the unit is capable of. I have one in my office system with a Sugden IA4 and Devore speakers. I think it is a terrific value at its retail, even more so at its street price.

@klh007 

ghasley, I'll guess SW1X?

No but I understand SW1X makes great gear. I have UK networking, Dutch server/streamer, UK DAC (but will be evaluating other dacs soon of UK and US origin), UK amplification and USA speakers.

@shkong78 ,

Will wait to hear your feedback about the Pi+ DAC once you have completed the demo in your system. Sounds interesting.

If you are streaming, I find streaming so much easier to listen to with a tube DAC.

Alan Sircom described the Dave as “listening to a direct feed from the mixing desk”.

Whereas the Brinkmann Nyquist will “summon up the musicians and conductors in front of you, in a kind of holographic simulation of the live event. The comparison is one of head vs. heart if you like, with the Nyquist taking the ‘heart’ route all the way.”

If you plan to keep the DAC long term, it’s a pretty easy to figure out which DAC will be easier to live with over the long run.

@ghasley Props to you for not taking bait clothed in all caps. I mean, we're not 13 years old anymore, right? 

@ghdprentice Fair enough!

@hilde45 

LOL...indeed. I hope you are well and nice to hear from you! We will catch up soon.

@ghasley That would be nice. We can have a drink and toast to our troll-defying spells. (Begone, internet worms! Away, digital dreckmeisters!) 

Chauncey (Repost from another thread on same subject a couple of weeks ago). To me the R2R ladder DACs have a more engaging, relaxed, almost "tube like" presentation....with no harshness.

I have had the following DACs in my own system, or own them and can highly recommend them. For reference they are quite a few R2R ladder DACs, which sonically are perfect for me.

$1,850 Denafrips Pontus II "12th Anniversary) DAC (R2R DAC)

$3,200 Musician Aquarius DAC (R2R DAC)

$5,500 Holo Audio May DAC "Kitsune KTE Edition" (R2R DAC)

$4,900 Denafrips Terminator II "12th Anniversary Edition" (R2R DAC)

$7,200 Denafrips Terminator Plus "12th Anniversary Edition (R2R DAC)

Others I have heard in systems I know, but never in my own....but can recommend:

$7,000 T+A DAC 200

$6,900 Lampizator Baltic (Think it was a 3)

For $5,000 I'd go with the Terminator II 12th no question. If you're good going to $7,000 then the Terminator Plus 12th, T+A DAC 200, and the Lampi Baltic.....would be a killer DAC shootout.

Best of luck to you

In his review of the Mojo Audio Mystique X SE, Herb Reichert did a nice comparison of a few of the dac manufacturers mentioned in this thread - dCS, Holo Audio, Denafrips. I would suggest looking up his review, if you have not already, for a good description of the house sound of each manufacturer. The reigning champ in his system is the dCS Bartok, for what it's worth. 

@recklesskelly “With this logic @ghdprentice then we should all dump our separates and get an All In One?”.

Not at all what I intended as I am sure you realize. The optimal point is to have a single function per box. Generally this seems to be optimal. Cramming several functions in a single box typically has a pretty big sonic cost. 

It’s all relative!

IMO, you are drowning in a sea of choices and opinions. Personally, I would take the 2-hour drive to the dealer, sit down and listen. It’s a better way to buy, IMO. 

@chayro +1

+2, @chayro

@chauncey

I wouldn’t buy a DAC without home audition and return privileges. There is so much riding on this component and the streamer you’re going to pick next.

Also add AQUA Formula xHD Rev. 2 DAC and LinQ to your list of audition. 

And at the dealer, you can compare several dacs side by side. And, believe it or not, some dealers really want you to be satisfied and will help guide you to products that suit your tastes. IMO, we were better off 50 years ago when we walked into Crazy Eddie or Sam Goody and said “I like that one” than we are now with all this internet buying. You need to compare several products side by side. At least that’s what I think. 

I have owned the TT2 with the Mscaler, dCS Bartok, MSB Discrete and now the Premier. I would take a serious look at the MSB lineup. I found the discrete to be much more natural than the other dacs I had owned. I was also surprised inning them with a pair of Rockport Atria II and then Cygnus with D’Agostino momentum HD and M400s.

MSB is a modular design with multiple input modules. I currently prefer the network renderer. I also pair it with a gigafoil and linear power supply. 
 

I did upgrade to the premier Dac and the hen to go in full MSB with the s202 amp and sold my momentum gear. I actually was able to put money in my pocket and I find the sound to be open and resolving without losing much if anything from the momentum gear. There is a great synergy between the MSB amps and dacs.

MSB also has a great upgrade program where you get 100% of you money back towards the upgrade.

Don't see any dealers close to Denver to demo MSB....

https://msbtechnology.com/dealers/

@chauncey 

Consider appointments with multiple dealers in a town that likely exists in only a few places, perhaps LA? I’ve found it ironic that we will consider a blind $20k purchase vs a $500 plane ticket.

I wanted to support local business, so I ordered the Schitt Yggy Less is More (the worst measuring version) for a home trial.

This thing is amazing, and I think it is better than the Lumin X1 + fibre streaming that I traded-in for my speakers. I loved the X1 and was reluctant to remove it but got an offer for $3K more than I paid for it. I am not sure this needs much break-in since it is already sounding fabulous.

The Sonore OpticalRendu streamer is quieter than the X1’s streamer and equally good, maybe better for some ears. A chocolate vs vanilla difference in the streamers. My best streamer is a Playback Designs Streamer-IF and that is with SPDIF, not even heard the fibre-based PLink part yet.

The combo of the Less is More Yggy and the fibre-based opticalRendu, sounds great on my speakers. First thing I said when I heard it was that this is like the X1. On my RAAL SR1a earphones, the real test of my DACs, it was the best sounding DAC. The X1 was the best on the SR1a until the Yggy.

Even if the Yggy was almost as good as the X1 I would be ecstatic.

Another huge plus is that I can have both RCA and XLR outputs from the DAC connected to my Holo Serene preamp and VM-1a amp at the same time. You cannot do that with the X1.

Great job Schitt.

@chauncey give Vine Galbo a call he might be able to arrange something for you. 

I echo the comments about  having synergy between components. A case in point I owned the Accuphase DP-78 CD/SACD player a formidable  DAC that matched wonderfully with my Shindo, Wolcott 220 monoblocks and Maggie 20.7.  After moving to a Pass Labs 350.8 amplifier the sound had changed to a more aggressive and rock and roll sound, still good but different.  I demoed the Holo May Level 2 R2R dac.  In my system it had a polite sound more laid back, detailed, and good sound stage, but did not WOW me to switch from my Accuphase.  I've also heard the Chord Hugo TT which had a similar sound as the Holo May.  With the Aqua La Scala MKii Optologic IMHO it blew away the Holo May and just matched up extremely well in my system, music just slightly warmer, but more weight/body, detail, huge sound stage both wide and deep,  and that "there"  factor.  Piano notes were just to die for. I can only emphasis what others have indicated where possible to demo the unit in your system.  Happy hunting!!

@chauve I’m still in love the MMT, and have side by side by side in front of me the MMT, T+A 200, Musetec 005 (but not in I2s as I historically have listened to the 005). My close friend has the Holo May and I loaned out my MMT to him, we did some listening and he/I differ in listening tastes an he went with the Holo because he’s a true "organic" and "musical" "vinyl" loving audiophile for whatever those cliche terms mean to you. While I’m more of a modern music, dynamics and detail lover who wants his 2 channel to sound like multi channel and be enveloped by a holographic and wide, detailed and lightning fast sound. He’s a tubes guy and I solid state... If that also sheds any light on listening preference.

l’ll be honest the MMT is incredible, but expensive, and my buddy confessed to me that that was a great deal of why he opted for the Holo May. The T+A thus far does an amazing job and might have a wider side to side sound stage and slightly more distinguished right to left presentation compared to the MMT, but bass is somewhat veiled on the 200 and I feel I need to drastically overhaul my sub settings while A/B/C testing these DAC’s because of the 200. Time and time again the MMT would make me stop, lift my head, as almost expecting to see a phantom before me generating what in my opinion is the best center image I have heard. Seriously I listen to very familiar tracks and was just awestruck once stepping up from the 005 to the MMT based on this feat alone.

The MMT is IMO > then the T+A 200, and T+A 200 > 005, but rightfully so at their respective price points. These are early impressions with the 200 though (about 15hrs butt in chair time) and I’m awaiting new sub’s and amps to really flesh out this analysis. I’ve owed the MMT and 005 for years now and have nothing but incredible things to say about both. As of right now I have given the 005 over to my buddy who has the Holo May for him to really sit down and listen to those two DAC’s side by side for an extended period of time.

I have to preface all of this information due to the fact that I have a someone unusual system set up where I’m running my DAC’s through an integrated and then through separate monoblock amplification. And I have run into a few DAC related voltage output issues that I’ve had to troubleshoot over the years to avoid clipping.

Example being that I have to run my voltage output on my MMT at 0.6v (as opposed to 2v or 6v), yet I have zero issues with the 005, not having a preamp or volume control feature as do the MMT and 200 (both having preamp like capabilities, 005 is just max volume out). Yet with the 200 I cannot run it’s XLR outputs in "line stage" mode which is essentially max volume out, otherwise again I will get clipping distortion. So I need to run the pre-outs of the 200 in variable volume mode. This is something that I’m still researching, but to the best of my ears variable avoids clipping into my integrated amp (SU-R1000). I’m contemplating running the 200 through RCA outs as opposed to XLR to see if this might change things.

So who knows?... But in the end 4k price jumps is what I’ve personally found to be the case as far as eyebrow raising sonic improvements in my DAC’s and system.

What I will say though is the 005 really has a special place in my heart because it obviously was the best DAC I had ever heard at that time and my listening journey. If I had to do it all over again on a drastically limited budget, looking at a brand new 005 for $2,900 I without question would go that route ( @lordmelton is a great reference). I also do wonder about the sonic benefits of external clocks and time and time again look at my Gustard r26 and wonder if and external clock with bring its caliber up to that of the 005 as many other listeners claim (but that combo two now is eclipsing the 005 price).

@krymer2 It is an amazing DAC (MMT). I am floored with each time too. I honestly feel is holographic center imagine and bass coherence to be my two favorite features. Just an amazing piece of equipment . ​​​​​

@docroasty so the MA3, what were/are your thoughts in A/B listening compared to the MMT. I’m highly looking into the MA3, but right now have the 200 and I’m really enjoying it. The 30k EMM labs DA2 V2 is my fantasyland piece of equipment should I ever fall into a large sum of money.

@ja_kub_sz , Hello!  I read with interest you comment on MMT output voltages.

And I have run into a few DAC related voltage output issues that I’ve had to troubleshoot over the years to avoid clipping.

My Tambaqui is connected to my Audionet Stern Preamp with single ended (prefered) (RCA) cables.  On a very few recordings, that in the words of my dealer, are 'very hot' I get clipping or distortion while using the 6v output.  Certainly different preamps or integrateds synergise with different output voltages.  So I can change it to 2v output, right in the Mola Mola app.  This eliminates the distortion on 'hot' recordings.  But, it does not sound as good generally.  So I learned this easy adjustment from Bill at GTT: in the app set Volume Offset (I use direct) to -2.  This allows me to maintain the higher output voltage and get no clipping with better sound.

@fastfreight wow! Some very good info! Gonna give it a try! 

@chauncey I use Roon through a Aries g2.1. I auditioned a number of streamers including the 3 you’ve listed. Thought the N200 and Aries G2.1 were even in sound quality but went with the Aries because it’s Roon-Ready and operates well via Wi-Fi (my listening room doesn’t have an Ethernet port). Earlier, a poster suggested looking at a Bricasti with network card. If I was in the market for a DAC, I’d give that a strong look. Happy hunting!

Hi @brewerslaw ​​​​@chauncey !  I use Roon and had a Nucleus+ in my computer room.  I have the Mola Mola Tambaqui and was looking for a streamer to up the game.  I was told "you have a Ferrari for a DAC and are feeding it cheap gas" !

I ended up with a wired Aries G2.1.  Definite improvement.  Then I modded it with a Sean Jacobs AR6 power supply. Expensive and requires internal conversion of the Aries.  It sounded amazing.  But my wired Aries G2.1 was very finicky.  I have good internet, 1G service, 1G switch and throughputs etc. If I left it for any time (overnight) it would be locked up and a PAIN to restart.

So when I learned about the Grimm MU1 I jumped on it before the price went up.  It runs Roon Core so it replaced my Nucleus +, It's power supply and a power cable. It is also an amazing streamer, especially for the non DSD stuff.  It does DSD, it just is amazing on the 44 to 196 stuff.  Special.  AES to my DAC.  I think it is a real value, rivaling the N20 and besting most other servers.   And it runs Roon Core without issue.  And nobody talks of changing the power supply as in other streamers.  No wifi though... You need to hear the Grimm.  

@fastfreight So I was mistaken... My MMT only clips at 6v, 2v is fine and 0.6v also.

I do appreciate the volume adjustment help. Do you think it would be of benefit to run that MMT at 6v and reduce the volume to avoid clipping? I'm just kind of puzzled by all of the voltage output difference.

Is the ideal setting one that outputs the highest volts without clipping?

If I run the MMT at 2v there is no clipping regardless of volume, but there could be room to spare?

Based on the variable voltage output of the T+A 200, I would estimate my clipping threshold to be around 4v (0-5v XLR variable output). Direct is at 5v and clips at all volumes, but running variable at 85-90% volume doesn't (4v est).

Hi @ja_kub_sz ,  I can only speak about how my Tambaqui interacts with my Audionet Stern (and formerly Audionet Pre G2).  The 6v output sounds better than the 2v output on the Tambaqui.  At 6v I only got the clipping on some recordings, but was super annoying.  So by setting Volume offset to -2, for me, it fixes everything and I can still run 6v output.  Remember to use Volume Offset, not Volume, as the digital voilume on the Tambaqui casues bit strippiing or loss of resolution.  Again I run fixed volume output (now adjusted by the volume offset) and control volume on the preamp.  I would think we want to run the highest output from the DAC that works in our system.  The variable output on the T+A is interesting.

I do not know how to equate the amount of Volume Offset you need to run at 6v and eliminate the clipping.  Please experiment and get back to us!

@ja_kub_sz Thank you for a well thought out comparison between the MMT, T200 and Musetec 005.

You have exactly the same priorities as myself, Solid State, dynamic wide presentation and I thought very interesting that you try to get a multi-channel sound from stereo, again excellent points. The only quality I would add is timbre or texture of instruments plus vocal realism - does Jagger really sound like Jagger including his London accent?

Your enthusiasm for DACs is reflected in my love of pre-amps. My very first HI-End gear was Naim, before they became famous. Naim always insisted that the pre-amp is the heart of the system but still adhered to the top to bottom approach of trash in - trash out. So most money should be allocated to the source, closely followed by the pre-amp.

Recently a new school of thought has insisted on the DAC creating the most influence. To this I say I believe it's a combination of the DAC and source that creates a true source.

Are you using the MM Streaming Card with your MMT? Or what's your source?

Regarding clipping it's usually a symptom that your power amp is too small, you're operating it at over 100% of its capacity.

You said the Musetec 005 doesn't cause clipping, these are its specs:
Single-ended RCA output level 2Vrms
Balanced XLR output level 4Vrms

@fastfreight advised to reduce the gain by 2V so I guess this would fall into line with the 005's 4V balanced output.

Good Luck!

@lordmelton your praise of the 005 ultimately pushed me to get it and I thank you.

Innuos Zenith MK3 with Phoenix Reclocker and Ethernet Switch, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB cable.

My clipping issue is most likely within the SU-R1000 used as a not preamp preamp, but I'm of the opinion that it's ADC does add something that my previous test preamp (Benchmark HPA4) didn't.

My JC1+ aren't being worked too hard, but they're just getting clipping from the SU-R1000 in sure.

​​​​

You left the best dac out of the bunch out of the conversation .

we have tested most everything out there , the T+A 200 dac is exceptional 

at $7k a True  bargain , it will meet or beat any dac $15k or under personally

many of us liked it so much  even vs the Chord Dave, and Mola Mola dac 

which  far more  monies. As we speak I am saving for one .

4 others in our audio-get together already own it.

Check out Lampizator’s entry level DAC, new Amber 4 or used Amber 3. They are incredible DACs. The build quality and sound is second to none in this price range. You can search and review the specs and reviews. 

@chauncey , get an Aries Cerat DAC, even at entry level Helene, it beats so many DACs at higher pricing.

@audioman58 , Good Morning!  Are your buddies using separate streamers with the T+A 200?  What amps?  Thanks, Ken

@chauncey you have very high quality revealing components so a matching quality DAC is advised. Prices may not be current:

• -2.3 Doge 7 MkII tube DAC
• 4.5 Wired4Sound DAC-2v2SE
• -5.0 Audio-GD R7HE MK2
• 5.6 Kitsune Hifi May-KTE.
• *6.6 Lampizator Baltic 4 (punches way above price point- beats KTE).
• -6.8 Bel Canto Ex1 DAC (Transparent)
• 7.3 Lampizator Golden Atlantic TRP,
• 8.0 ACCUPHASE DP-570 CD/SACD PLAYER
• 10.5 Meitner’s MA 3.
• 12.0 Mojo Mystique Pro (max 24/192)
• *12.0 Rockna Wave dream EditionSignature DAC balanced
• 13.4 Mola Mola’s Tambaqui
• 15.0 APL Hi-FI DSD-SR mk2 (most Ianalog, unique sound)
• 16.0 Briscasti M21
• 18.0 Brinkmann Nyquist,
• *20.9 Jadis JS1 MkV
• *22.0 Playback Designs Dream
• 28.0 Lampizator Golden Gate

I compiled this list when searching for my DAC hoping to get up to the sonics of my analog chain. I ended up purchasing the DSM/2 with the Linn Organik DAC card upgrade which I believe is a sonic bargain elevating to the sonics of top DACs - I still can’t believe my luck. https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/linn-products-organik-dac-in-the-klimax-dsm-network-player/

why don't play SACD with Spdif connections? 

If I were you, i would just continue improving the sound of the yggdrasil with power conditioning, dedicated power line, better cables, upstream components (DDC, streamer), better ethernet infrastructure, etc. 

When you do that and lay a solid foundation for your digital chain,  you may note that the diminishing returns are getting maxed out whenever you try to upgrade to a 10k+ dac in some fancier chassis.

@jorjlien 

why don't play SACD with Spdif connections? 

Limited bandwidth, typically maxes out at 24/192 (DOP)

@fastfreight 

I got my Tambaqui a few weeks ago.

I'm using with a Pass Labs INT 60

with 6V output I did, like you, get clipping on a few songs.

I ended up just going with 2V

From Mola Mola support:

There is dB’s and dBu’s. dB’s is relative to something, dBu’s is relative to an output voltage (0dBu is 0,775V). The volume control of the Tambaqui in dB’s is relative to the actual output voltage. So if you have set it to 6V, the volume in dB’s is relative to +18dBu. So 0dB volume is 18dBu.

If you have set it to 2V, 0dB is relative to 8dBu because 8dBu is the same as around 2V output.

This scale is logarithmic, so dependent on how much you would like to reduce it, is how much volume you need to lower it.

So for example if you want to output max 1V which is the same as 2dBu, you need to lower the volume by 16dB, if set to 6V. If set to 2V, you need to lower the volume by 6dB to output max 1V.

Hello @phishhhhh4 ,  Good info but confusing me a bit.  You (Mola Mola) are saying there is no difference as long as you turn the volume down using 6v or up using 2v?  This is not what I found to be true.  At the 6v output, on some recordings, there is distortion.  I will call it this as opposed to clipping as I might be technically wrong.  This distortion always starts at the bottom of any eight step cycle on my Audionet Preamp ( Pre G2) and probably my Stern.  As you turn the volume up, the distortion increases  along any 8 step portion of the volume.  As you increase volume, the distortion increases along that given 8 step increase. At the ninth step, the distortion lowers and then climbs again (louder as the volume is louder) during  that 8 step ladder.  So just turning the volume down to match 2v output volume does not eliminate the distortion.

Using Volume Offset does.  I do not know if this effectively turns the output down to 5v or 4v or not, but it sounds better than just using 2v and turning it up

I was hoping you could explain response from Mola Mola as it's over my head. I do, take from it, that changing Volume offset does lower the output voltage

Ive experienced the distortion you refer to on 2 tracks @ 6V. When I change to 2V there is no longer distortion where there was.

Mola Mola support responds within 24 hrs if you needed more info.

I do not doubt that that the distortion goes away at the 2v output; same here.

What I am saying is that we do not have to turn it all the way down to 2v.  Use the Volume Offset instead.

I looked again at Volume Offset in the MM app.

I noticed by selecting -2 its value is -2dB (as opposed to -2v). 

Somehow this is different than decreasing volume, which in their digital domain causes a resolution loss.  I do not think you loose any resolution at 6v with -2 in the volume offset tab.

Cool

Honestly I wish there wasn't a choice

I'm mildly obsessed about it.

I've made comparisons and although at the same volume setting on my pre 6v does sound better than 2v I f I turn up my pre volume at 2v I don't think I can appreciate a SQ difference.

I wonder if SQ difference just related to volume?

I asked MOLA MOLA what volume offset does:

The volume setting stays the same on all sources when changing presets. Sometimes you can experience 1 preset is louder or softer than the other so you have to change the volume each time.
With the volume offset you can match the volume on each particular preset to match the volume for each source.

And Volume offset works in direct mode and headphone mode as well.