I have never owned a tube amplifier before and am planning to purchase one with a minimum of 50 watts per channel to mate with 8 ohm 88 dbl speakers.
My hope is experienced audiogoners will share their expertise regarding how to approach this. While I realize listening is the best way to learn about sound and compatibility; I want to learn a better understanding about brands with less maintenance and longer tube life, how to decide between mono or stereo,can a newbie play with bias or is auto biasing a better first choice, etc.
I would also appreciate what to look for in selecting a used tube amp to identify one that might be in need of repair. For example, with solid state depending on the brand, capacitor replacement can be more of a concern. Any advice on what to look out for or ask about with used tube amps would be appreciated.
A big question I have is how to understand the relationship between power tubes like E34's, 120.s, etc. and, I guess the driver? tubes like 12au7's and 12at7's. That is to ask which is more critical to the overall sound of the amp? FWIW, I routinely tube roll with my preamps.
I 've read through a number of threads but maybe someone can point me to good ones I may have missed.
The Conrad Johnson LP66S was delivered on Sunday and secreted into the man cave.
I set it up today while my better half was at exercise class: Theta ProBasic III DAC, PWT, PL Dialogue Premium, with the LP66S replacing the McCormack DNA-500, and going into Tyler Acoustics MMX5's. Saving the turntable for later.
Initial impressions after about three hours of listening:
First, no problem about power or loudness.
Second, the overall sound seems more dense. I lost some of that when I switched out the Thiel CS5's for the Tylers. Now it is mostly back about 80 - 90 percent. FWIW, I think the Thiels were known for that politeness at the expense of some dynamics.
Third, the bass seems more solid and clear in the mix while still being textured.
Fourth the "spit on the microphone" is back. I am listening to Adele's "19" and it has clearly returned. On the song "Love", there is noticeably more sheen to the celeste. Also more sheen and brass to the cymbals on JJ Cale's "Troubadour".
Fifth, I think there are a few more ambient clues but nothing near holographic that I can hear.
The previous owner was not using the amp routinely and suggested that the amp capacitors might need a couple of long listening sessions to reconstitute the capacitors.....
By the way, I would not be afraid to buy again from "Tuggs" in Washington state. Excellent packing job and the amp looks like new! No trouble with FedEx.
Lastly, given I have changed out both speakers and amps, I have sort of broken the rule about one component at a time. Having said that, there is still a touch of sibilance I noticed after installing the Tylers and may have to change out their resistors. Easy job as they are wired in behind the connection posts on the speaker backs. Or possibly change tubes in the preamp? Or maybe, I just need more time on the speakers as they are now about 75 hours from new :-)!
Such a fine mess I have created with things to learn and adjust.
So...right now I am happy.
Thanks for listening and all of the constructive comments. Much appreciated and keep any thoughts coming!
High cost as used is actually a good sign--the market demand suggests that it well liked.
I have a local dealer that carries CJ equipment. It sounds good to me. That dealer also carries the Italian Synthesis brand and that brand is quite impressive for the money. They build two integrated amps that I particularly like, the A40 and A100. These come with a very good built-in DAC and utilize KT 66 tubes. This is not that easy a brand to find, but, it is worth hunting down.
"When it comes to imaging, the LP66S evinced plenty of tube magic. Image outlines were solidly anchored within the soundstage. When partnering the ET2, it easily kept pace in this respect, giving full scope to a deep and spacious soundstage."
Thought it would be a fairly low cost way to see if I can hear a tube difference
The difference between tube and transistor is usually pretty easy to hear. I've had people walk in from off the street and they were able to tell the difference. I wouldn't worry about that!
I have owned Rogue Audio tube amp products for almost 5 years and find they deliver a sound that I prefer. I started with a Cronus Magnum II - KT120 power tubes delivering 100 WPC. It gave me a sound that I really enjoyed over just about every other amplifier I have heard. Powerful enough to be dynamic and more than room filling with 84db and up speakers. Power Tubes last ~ 2-1/2 years or so. Bias adjustment is easy- remove a plate with two captured thumb screws and flip the 4 switches to display the current reading on the built in meter. adjust the screw with the supplied screwdriver until the meter reads the correct value. Takes 5 minutes every 6 months or so. Usually they do not need any adjustment, just check the value on the meter. The sound is highly refined and detailed, more neutral than syrupy, smooth with a very large 3D sound stage and excellent bass, midrange and treble. The possible downsides are that it is somewhat large and heavy (still fits on the top of a rack or shelf), does give off some heat and can have some local hum near the amp that becomes silent a few feet away (never through the speakers). Downsides are never an issue for me and the sound quality IMHO beats every solid state amp below and significantly above its price. The new Cronus Magnum III is supposed to be even better.
I’d skip the tube amp altogether and go for a class A SS integrated paired with a Tubed phono preamp. That is if your into analog/vinyl, if not then never mind....
My expectation is that a tube amp will improve the imaging,
layered sound stage, and sense of aliveness I think I hear when the
treble gets better detail without
sibilance.
Right. Should be fine. Only slight concern is when you say the McCormack RLD is too polite. Never heard that one myself. Had a DNA1, beautiful sounding amp. Very, very close to the Aronov and Melody tube integrateds. Very close in sound, very close in perceived power. Which there's the 150W SS to 50W tube equivalence thing. But in terms of sound, if you like the DNA and just want a little better imaging, layering and palpable presence, you should be able to find that with tubes. Any of the amps people are recommending should do that easily.
Improved treble detail without sibilance is a sort of hallmark of tubes vs SS. The better tube amps provide extended treble that can seem downright liquid. The last guy to hear my system was into digital and while he was here kept thinking my system should be more cold and analytical. Only find himself yearning for that nice full round warm sound that was missing when he got home. So there's something about it that wins over even those who aren't naturally inclined. Seeing how this is already the direction you want to go its a safe bet you will find what you are looking for.
Ok, All I can do is recommend the tube amps that, "I", personally enjoy. Like everything else this is WAY subjective. And the speakers will show the amps differently as well. But there is more to those which I like than just the sound. And the tube power differential people have talked about? That is a "real", thing. I can't say that I understand it very well. But as the different manufacturers test, rate and also design and build differently? Your going to see a wide range of differences because of that as well! I have one pair of mono-blocks that only rates at 4 watts but pushes as well as any 40-50 watt tube amp that I have tried. "Sonance, Opera 300B cyber". And I will say that most tube amps that I have tried rated at 30-50 Wpc will push as well "IMHO", as most SS amps rated for 100WPC. "Not-withstanding, Pass, Threshold and a few others"! My favorite tube amps overall are the "Manley Labs", ALL of the offerings from Manley sound crazy nice and are also built like a tank! And the Biasing is the most user friendly I have ever seen. Marked out for you on the top of the amplifiers themselves. And I believe they even still give you a free multimeter when you purchase them from the factory which is in Ca.. Something i have noticed though in the way you want to power your speakers for the best sound which I have never heard anyone else say before though. When I purchase/use SS amps? Headroom is a GREAT thing. It helps keep the distortion low. Keeps you away from clipping which can destroy some amps very quickly. And is just a good thing all around it seems. With the tube amps? Not so much! You want the amp max, "Where it will clip", To be near your reference listening level. Why? Because with a good tube amp that is where most sound there very best! But a SS amp? For most, "Again though", "Not-withstanding, "Pass, Threshold and a few other SS amps, that work a little bit differently", You want that headroom to stay well away from where they clip. That for the best sound you can get from a SS amp. Because distortion from a SS amp is always just horrible noise. I also have to agree with "WolfGarcia", above. The most bang for the buck", I believe would be from "Jolida", Just, now it is named, "Black Ice"! Black Ice, also has a certain, one Mr. "Jim Fosgate", in the house now. " "That fellow currently holds more patents than even I! And I believe he's near or even past the ,(Four-Hundred) mark now"! And those patents are all related to audio. Which now, "Black Ice" basically, has free-access to! And as far as tubes? they do all sound a bit different. And different as well, each in different gear! The 300B is my favorite, "Output Stage" valve to use. But they can be a bit pricey, even for new tubes currently made!
OP, what is your preamp? Didn't see that mentioned anywhere. My suggestion would be to get yourself a good tube pre and see how you like it with your DNA 500.
I currently use two tubed preamps - CJ 17LS2 and PL Dialogue Premium. In my listening, the CJ is more nuanced and textured while the PL is more forward and analytical. The bass is better with the PL but that may be due to a slight impedance mismatch between the CJ and the DNA - 500. More tube rolling options with the PL, which I have done and can hear with the new Tylers even though they are not broken in yet.
I also have a McCormack RLD solid state preamp that is not really that bad except it is a bit too smooth and polite for my taste.
My expectation is that a tube amp will improve the imaging, layered sound stage, and sense of aliveness I think I hear when the treble gets better detail without
sibilance.
I own a tube amp and a ss amp. Swap them out to hear the differences and enjoy both greatly. Tube amps are more 'hands on' than ss amps IME. Tube amps also have a few idiosyncrasies that ss amps do not,IMO. Firstly, what is not really mentioned here ( at least that I could find) is that tube amps are generally more costly to run. One has to budget for expected tube replacement. Also, typically IME the amps run hotter than ss amps. ( particularly Class D ss amps) So, if heat is a concern, and it should be in many parts of the world today, then this needs to be considered. Then we have the biasing scheme required by most tube amps...( unless they are self biasing, which is the way I would STRONGLY recommend you go). I used to own an incredible sounding tube amp, but the biasing protocols were bordering on criminal! This is less common today, but still something to be very much factored in. Lastly, expect a tube amp to require more warm-up than the typical ss amp. With a lot of tube amps one has to wait for the tubes to stabilize before listening to music, that generally is not a factor with ss amps. In case it sounds like i am down on tube designs, absolutely NOT, but one has to expect their 'requirements' to get the best sound. ( and that sound is one that I generally think sounds better than the best ss amps, at least that I have heard!).
+1 @pkatsuleas My suggestion would be to get yourself a good tube pre and see how you like it with your DNA 500...
@dsper Exactly. If you like separates, try this for a while if you want to learn and appreciate the differences a little more. Allows you to leverage your current DNA-500 on the back end for a while. Add a really nice tube preamp on the front end. Get some good input/driver tubes. Still a bit 2D sounding, but it gets you half way there and its fun to learn how half tube and full tube sounds.
Then curiosity about full 3D tube sound sets in for some after hearing the tube preamp in the loop awhile with SS amp on the back end. At that point, start eyeballing your future tube amplifier and decent interconnect cables to go along with the all tube setup. Doing this in steps is fun too.
OP, what is your preamp? Didn't see that mentioned anywhere. My suggestion would be to get yourself a good tube pre and see how you like it with your DNA 500. I'm using a DNA .5 (100 watts) with a Rogue Perseus tube pre and very happy for now. Started small and cheap with a Schiit Saga tube pre which sounded good but knew I could do better. As you've probably read here and elsewhere this could be the best of both worlds for you and a worry free entry into tubes (no biasing, etc.).
I do have a Jolida 502b tube integrated (60 watts, Gold Lion KT88) that I used for years and still do occasionally. The Jolida definitely gives you more of that "tube magic" but the .5/Perseus combo gives better bass control and punch.
BTW, my speakers are old Snell Type D (rated at 87 dB and 5 ohms) and not quite so old Gallo Ref 3.1 (88dB, 4 - 8 ohms?). The Jolida powers them both quite satisfactorily for me in the 80 - 90 dB range. Although, the Gallos do seem to play just a bit louder/cleaner before any hint of distortion. I am very interested in trying some speakers over 90 dB with the Jolida. Unfortunately, can't afford any Tannoys right now! ;-}
Be8ng new to tubes my advise, Look at Ayon ,Why they had made in Austria Great build anti resonance machined aluminum not sheet metal great Lundahl transformers very important for Fidelity most important, tube Safety ,Ayon has a Smart bias which is microprocessor controlled, you hit a button a few minute check it monitors wear and keeps each tube at optimum range under 80% of max last longer ,and if a tube goes bad ,not like some wear they glow red and explode or poor weak tube it Automatically goes into mute if a bad tube is detected and you unplug ,or if not in the room after 15 minutes Automaticlly Shuts off, on back indicator tells you which tube has the fault shut off 15 minutes ,replace tube ,turn on wait 15minutes to get up to temperature ,then hit rebias button volume off . In 3 -4 minutes processor calibrated blinking Ayon logo stops blinking ,ready for music . Rebias check 1-2 months the best biasing system on the market I just bought another the spirit $5 is the new best of at around $5k the triton is the power house, for the average person the new Scorpio xs around $3100 USA tube audio is very good answering questions you may have the spirit I have older one 8 years old still runs perfect.
There are good points about how much tube power you will need for your speakers. They may not be a good match. High power tube amps can be noisy, of course there are very quiet well made tube amps with 50 watts or more but well made and quiet tends to be expensive. If you have the money go for a good one. Starting with a pre amp and SS amp may be an easier way into tube sound and you speakers may be happier. The Decware CSP3 is a very nice tube pre amp. Decware also make very nice tube amplifiers.
As long as this is going to be your first I have a couple of recommendations. The Carver Crimson 275 is rated at 75 watts per. It will run on 6550's, kt66, kt88, (supplied), and kt120's. And the amp runs on a circuit that just allows the tubes to cruise along and allows the tubes to have a very long life. You can put your hands directly on the power tubes on not get burned. The drivers are 12 xx7 series, (I think 1 12ax7, and 2 12au7. If you swap out these stock tubes to NOS you will have a giant killer that will drive just about any speaker you throw at it. Auto bias and you can manually adjust bias to go more or less "tubey" sound. And heres the kicker.... $2700 or less for new. Another consideration is Don Sachs Kootenay 120 amp. Another kt88 based amp. Great piece.
Don't run your new tube amp without a load attached as it can destroy the unit.
If the amp is of competent design, *as long as there is no signal at the input* this should be no worries. Our amps do not care about the input and output condition- they are unconditionally stable- you can even pull power tubes out while its playing and the amp acts as if nothing happened.
As I've stated above, I am a fan of low-powered tube amps. I own a pushpull 45 amp, a pushpull 349 amp and a parallel single-ended 2a3 amp. I like the sound of all of them. If forced to pick a favorite, it would be the pushpull 349 amp (5.5 watt), followed by the parallel single-ended 2a3 (6.5 watts). The very best amps I've heard were both very exotic--one is a custom-made output transformerless amp and the other is a pushpull 252 amp (a tube similar to a 300b, but much rarer). In other words, I would not say that any particular topology is superior to another--there are good examples of each tube amp type.
FWIW, here's the description of the 60 wpc amps from Quicksilver. Notice the comment about both being able to handle difficult speakers AND also having the finesse of a low powered amplifier. I've put some lovely KT77s in mine, and it's really does a delicate job with much of the acoustic I listen to, but has filled the room easily with orchestral stuff. Speakers are 87db, 8 ohm.
Via Quicksilver:
The new sixty watt amp retains the high damping factor and low distortion of the Horn Mono but with enough power to handle inefficient and difficult to drive speakers. The new power transformer has the same high grade core material as the output transformer. Also a new circuit increases the power tube bias at higher powers allowing the amp to have low distortion all the way up to clipping. At reduced powers this circuit gives the efficiency, finesse and delicacy of a low powered amplifier.
Power Output 60 watts into 4 or 8 ohms Power Bandwidth 14 Hz to 70 KHz Damping Factor 20 Input Sensitivity 1.2 volts Input Impedance 100 Kohm I.M. Distortion: less than 0.5% at 60 watts Tube Complement two KT88, 1-12AX7, 1-12BH7 Power Consumption 100 watts at idle 200 watts at full power
IMO, the best quality of sound is from tube amp Single Ended 3-5 W with full range speakers more 92 dB , direct connected to outputs, without crossovers, that press the sound. I use 8 inch full range for 50-15000 Hz and 12 inch bass speaker for 30-50 Hz. I have also open buffle with 12 inch full range Electro Voice, direct connected to my amp SE 2A3 RCA. The sound is with quality for a level higher than every Push Pull amp with big power, that never You will use. Stay away from EL34, 6L6, KT88, 6550....tubes with sharp sounding......that people uses for guitar amps. If You need more power, You can use SE GK71, GU 81 .....with power more 20-30 W.....
I have owned every type of tube amps out there key questions what are your speakers efficiency, room size, kind of music , how loud spl level as a Former Audiostore owner these are key . SET is the most pure or direct signal then triode, pentode. SET typically is under 10 wpc, or under 20 in Parallel. Class A triode ,pentode noticably more tactile and closer to live using No global feedback .vs ultralinear which uses feedback which = added distortion for best class A and deal IMO . Ayon from Austria have several big advantages They are a pure class A design , their integrated amplifiers are excellent and USA tube is offering great deals with things being slower then normal.I just bought another one. the heart of a tube amp the transformers and Ayon use world class Lundahl , also no vibration distortion causing sheet metal,all machined aluminum , and trouble free most important tube biasing Ayon is the only one that uses a microprocessor to monitor voltage as well tube wear, if It finds a tube failure the amp blinks goes into mute and circuit disconnectsFor safety, In back screen will tell which tube to replace , shut down, Replace tube, turn back on hold button in for 10 seconds it takes about 10 minutes and all tubes put in memory and running optimum ,once a month you recalibrate tubes,last longer and and optimum Sonic MA voltages. A bargain IMO for all the precision vs China specials ,ultralinear Cheap toroidal transformers ,and have the nerve to charge up to $5K. C core transformers like Lundahl are recognized as the standard for a top quality vacuum tube product.
Yes, tube amps are sort of the opposite of solid state when it comes to running with no load or accidentally shorting the speaker leads (big problem for solid state, no big deal with tube gear).
Another helpful hint for someone auditioning with tubes for the first time: If you turn off the tube amp to switch things up, wait a few minutes before turning it back on. Quickly cycling from on to off to on again can cause some tube amps to misbehave. I've heard some loud crackling and I have seen rectifiers put on a light show when that is done.
A small tip that I didn't know coming from a SS background.
Don't run your new tube amp without a load attached as it can destroy the unit. You may be especially tempted to do so right when to get it as you would like to A/B it against your old SS equipment while keeping both at operating temperature.
Fortunately I got lucky and didn't destroy my Frankenstein 300bs when I did this many years ago.
To be perfectly clear, energy stored in the supply is how an amp can
handle an orchestral crescendo that would cause it to exceed its
continuous power rating, correct?
No. The extra energy is useful to reduce IMD at higher power levels. Essentially it allows the power supply to have less noise- and less noise in the power supply results in the lower IMD of the amp.
Since this is a conversation about having enough power, what about going for a larger tube amp like 100 wpc.
As you increase the power of most tube amps, the output transformer has to be able to handle that power and at the same time make bandwidth. The problem is this basically doesn't happen; with output transformers as you build progressively larger devices, bandwidth is increasingly more difficult to obtain. For decades, 60 watts was the 'sweet spot' for push-pull tube amps, where they could make the power and still have the bandwidth needed (5-100KHz). You may not think that bandwidth above 20KHz is important, but unless you have a great degree of feedback (above 35dB or so) that bandwidth is important to prevent phase shift which can cause issues with tonality and the soundstage presentation.
Another thing to think about is the simple fact that 100 watts is not a great deal of power over 60 watts insofar as the ear is concerned- its slightly less than 3dB which is barely louder to the ear. But a 100 watt amp might have other properties (assuming bandwidth isn't an issue) at lower power levels that could be in its favor. So its a mixed bag.
OTLs get around the bandwidth issue by getting rid of the output transformer, so that tradeoff does not exist in them when going to higher power levels- a 200 watt OTL can be as fast, dynamic and transparent as a smaller one.
There are trade-offs, aside from cost, with going for more power. With some brands of amps, the cheaper, lower-powered version sounds better when playing at modest volume level than the higher cost, higher priced brethren. This can be the case with solid state too. I tend to find higher powered tube amps to sound a little bit brittle and hard (harsh?) sounding. But, it is still far better to get an amp compatible with your power requirements and accept the less significant trade-offs.
You need to hear these things for yourself. It is hard to say what you will like and dislike and how you would value the particular attributes of any given amp type, never mind particular model. If you can, listen to a modestly powered EL34 or EL84 amp (a popular tube in lower cost amps that sounds very good), a higher powered amp using KT 88 or KT120 or KT150 tubes, and an output transformerless amp, like the Atmasphere S-30 or M 60 amps. Of the more common tube types, I am a big fan of the 6L6 tube, but, those put out less power than the other tube types I've mentioned.
Now 'peak power supply' as you put it might be a current rating that has to do with what happens when you short out the power supply, and might be stated in amps. This is really a statement of how much energy is stored in the supply (and how big the spark will be when you short it out) rather than anything to do with how much power the amp makes.
To be perfectly clear, energy stored in the supply is how an amp can handle an orchestral crescendo that would cause it to exceed its continuous power rating, correct?
@audition__audio I'm so sorry to snap at you as I did, your comments are completely justified. I too have reacted to the ridiculous and incorrect statements put forth by that member. And Ralph's contribution to this forum have been invaluable, so much so, I own one of his masterpieces.
@dsper As you likely know very well, a McCormack DNA-500 is no slouch, quality build, big transformer, 500 watts, a capable amp - originally $7k retail as I recall.
+1 on 8ohm speaker impedance comments shared above in your favor.
If I were in your shoes, having come from similar SS amps over multiple decades, and gone through multiple stereo tube amps, I'd recommend demoing at least equivalent cost or higher quality level tube amps compared to your DNA-500. Otherwise you might end up disappointed and not really gain a proper perspective of the potential difference.
Perhaps some nice mono tube amps with quality made [beefy sized] transformers that don't break a sweat [nor run hot] might grab your attention, and for your low level listening requirements.
Many folks here can suggest a few good ones for consideration! :)
I rarely if ever disagree with Ralph and find his amps among the best I have ever heard. It was millercarbon that made the statement which I questioned. BTW this isnt the first time miller has made this statement about tubed vs S.S. watts.
Yes, Ralph was talking about clipping characteristics of solid state vs tube amps.
If you aren't driving the amps into clipping, then the clipping issue really isn't one.
It appears that a well designed and built tube amp in the 50-60 wpc range will work quite well with the speakers of choice mentioned. It is always good to try the amp in you home system to make a final determination.
But, there are some quite nice tube amps out there in the 50-60 wpc range.
Here we go again with the statement that tube watts are greater than S.S. watts. This statement is patently false and should call into question anything this member says in the future.
Are you sure you want to go there? "This member" didn't state that tube watts are greater than SS. He provided a very good, comprehensive explanation. "This member" should know, he's been designing high-end tube amps for at least 30 years.
Here we go again with the statement that tube watts are greater than S.S. watts. This statement is patently false and should call into question anything this member says in the future. Also, I maintain that impedance is more important in the greater scheme of things than efficiency when considering speakers with tube amps. Higher impedance speakers allow one to consider OTL amps which are the best I have heard.
When I think of solid state, I understand that the continuous power rating is one thing and peak power supply is another.
My question is:
Is
it true with tube amps that if an amp is rated at 60 wpc that is all
you are going to get or do capacitors, power transformer, etc. come into
play to allow higher peak power?
Peak power is an early 1970s thing. All amplifiers today are rated at continuous power.
Now 'peak power supply' as you put it might be a current rating that has to do with what happens when you short out the power supply, and might be stated in amps. This is really a statement of how much energy is stored in the supply (and how big the spark will be when you short it out) rather than anything to do with how much power the amp makes.
Most tube amps are "optimistically" rated. That 60 watt tube amp might
deliver that wattage at peak, but at 60 watts, it would be typically
distorting quite a bit. Tube amps simply do not do well in a numbers
game.
This has nothing to do with tube or solid state and has everything to do with how conservative the manufacturer is with their ratings. We rate our amplifiers for RMS power into an 8 ohm load and we rate them to not be clipping at that power level. Now there are different definitions used by several measuring organizations such as Stereophile, but clipping technically speaking is when you see the test sine wave signal getting a flattened top and bottom- as if someone 'clipped' the top and bottom of the waveform off with a pair of scissors. That is why its called 'clipping'. Any other definition is arbitrary.
For my taste, they are a touch lean (midrange on up being a bit more
prominent than upper bass), but that is a matter of taste, and the good
attributes of Atmasphere amps can be quite compelling.
Being more load sensitive, this has far more to do with how the amplifier is dealing with the load rather than the actual character of the amp itself. If you have it on a proper load (and the Tyler appears to be an excellent example) its not at all lean. The bigger the OTL, the less of an issue this is, IOW smaller OTLs are more load sensitive.
Now @larryi made a good comment about amplifier clipping- if you plan to use a solid state amp, my surmise is you'll need to have about 200 watts to do what a 50-60 watt tube amp will seem to do on this speaker, entirely because of the simple fact that tube amplifiers clip (overload) so much more gracefully than solid state. When a solid state amp breaks up, its instantly audible even if its only for a few milliseconds. But in the case of a tube amp this isn't always true. They can overload so gracefully that it may not be apparent until the amp is really heavily overloaded. IME its important that the amplifier have instantaneous overload recovery- this is very helpful in minimizing the audible artifacts when the amp is briefly overloaded. This is why tube amplifier power seems to carry more weight than solid state.
I should have mentioned that you should also look at output transformerless (OTL) amps. Atmasphere mentioned, above, the the Tylers are an easy, flat load. That makes them a good candidate for an OTL amp. Atmasphere, following forum rules, did not mention his own brand of OTL amps, so I will mention them as good candidates. These amps sound very clear, immediate, lively and engaging. For my taste, they are a touch lean (midrange on up being a bit more prominent than upper bass), but that is a matter of taste, and the good attributes of Atmasphere amps can be quite compelling.
For not crazy expensive amps, I like the Italian brand Synthesis, particularly the A40 and A100 models (the bigger chassis models of this brand are more reliable because they have less tendency to overheat). Tonally, this brand leans toward the warmish side. The same is true of Audio Note, another brand I like, but, most of their stuff is quite pricey.
Most tube amps are "optimistically" rated. That 60 watt tube amp might deliver that wattage at peak, but at 60 watts, it would be typically distorting quite a bit. Tube amps simply do not do well in a numbers game.
Because most tube amps are distorting quite a bit before reaching their "rated" output, a 60 watt amp should be considered more like a 30 watt amp. But, even with your 88 db/w efficient speakers, you will mostly be operating below one watt of output anyway; only a few peaks might get close to 30 watts, and tube amps distort gracefully.
I think most people who are unfamiliar with tubes substantially overestimate how much power they will need. Unless you have notoriously difficult to drive speakers, even modest tube amps can be made to work with your speakers. If you have to keep the volume down a bit, that is just one of those compromises that one has to make with ANY piece of audio gear; none are perfect.
I suspect that the notion of "tube watts" being more powerful than solid state has to do with the subjective impression that good tube amps deliver--the sound is full, lively and engaging at substantially lower volume so one thinks the system is playing loud when it is not.
to get to concert hall avg 91db, (5 doublings) math says you need 32wpc. a 94db momentary peak will need 64wpc. (you mentioned 60wpc)
The above explanation makes me think of another question, probably a dumb one.
When I think of solid state, I understand that the continuous power rating is one thing and peak power supply is another.
My question is:
Is it true with tube amps that if an amp is rated at 60 wpc that is all you are going to get or do capacitors, power transformer, etc. come into play to allow higher peak power?
Well, perhaps those low efficiency speakers will help you preserve your hearing longer in your life, avoid tinnitus, ... I never thought of it this way.
you can find much on the net, i.e. This site, scroll down some, says average Classical Concert is 90db, with momentary peaks of 120db.
i.e. if you are 4 meters/13lf away, it is -12db. That is 4 meters FURTHER than 1 meter, so that is 5 meters/16lf away from face of speakers.
ignoring that the room’s surfaces will retain sound levels, or that there are two speakers: let’s do
some OPEN SPACE SINGLE SPEAKER math.
your speakers, 1 watt, 1 meter = 88db sit 5m/16lf away -12db = 1w/5m/76db. double the power in watts for each +3db sound level
to get to concert hall avg 91db, (5 doublings) math says you need 32wpc. a 94db momentary peak will need 64wpc. (you mentioned 60wpc) 128wpc for 97db, keep doubling for each +3db peak
.........................................
Practically, the answers from people who have used low efficiency speakers with ____? wpc tube amps will give you the best indication, so tell us, or ask them:
room description desired volume? type of music, i.e. just loud peaks, or loud average? length of listening sessions in time is also a big factor regarding hearing loss.
Interesting to read about the Tylers. You don't see much hype about them here. They seem to be a good value speaker and tube amp friendly. Got my attention.
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