What you will/may notice when a tube amp is driving a speaker with low impedance dips is an uneven frequency response, e.g. the speakers may sound "bright".
I think that is exactly what worries me about a tube amp. Can it cover the
low frequency
impedance dips. With solid state, one can form, at least, a preliminary sorting by learning the 8/4/2 ohm and watts specs; but it does not seem to be that easy with tubes. A few tube amp suppliers claim a 2 ohm load capability but most of the websites I have reviewed are silent on this topic. Maybe I am worrying too much about it based on my Thiel CS5 experience. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
The only issue is whether 50-60 watts is enough power. What are you playing them with now?
I am currently using my McCormack DNA 500 (which is a necessity with my Thiel CS5's) to power the Tylers. Have been listening to "The Essential Jaco Pastorius" and then some George Thorogood. The decibel reading at my chair is averaging 80 dbl with peaks at 92 dbl. I do not need it any louder than that and generally listen at lower levels. Dsper |
I remembered that I still had the EH's I took out of my CJ preamp when I put in Phillips....
Anyway I substituted those for the EH's in the tube amp and it helped.
Can hardly wait for the butt uglies to arrive!
Dsper |
mid40sguy
Some very useful information here
You are correct about that; I have learned a lot. |
A nice place to start. What brand/number tubes came with it?
One quad of Penta Labs KT88SC, and one quad of JJ 6550. Seller claims they all test around 75 on his Knight KG-600. ...they were able to tell the difference. I wouldn't worry about that!
You are probably correct, but any time I think I know 100% what I am doing is when I find out I learn something new! |
luisma31,
Maybe I need to get a couple of tube amps as it is turning to winter in the Indianapolis area!
Changing the interconnects certainly helped with the sibilance.
I also took out my AT cartridge and inserted an Ortofon Pro S40, which is supposed to be a "DJ" cartridge but with a better stylus...seems to have made an improvement.
I am learning that changing out speakers is a big deal and has me rethinking everything!
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gkr7007 wrote "...
couple of recommendations. The Carver Crimson 275..." How does the Carver sound compared to others you may have heard? |
You should check with Tyler, but a 50-60 wpc push pull amp should be fine with those speakers.
As I recollect prior discussions with Tyler, he indicated that he has customers using 50 watt tube amps but also mentions that he thinks 100 watts solid state is a good number to consider. FWIW, I have also run a Coda CS (300 WPC) with them, just to see, but went back to the DNA 500 because I hear more textural detail and pace. Dsper |
The speakers in question are Tyler Acoustics. Tyler advised me they are 8 ohm 88 dbl and should not dip below 6 ohms. |
Which leads me to question, how large is the OP's listening room? Listening room is 25 X 15 X 9. Due to room logistics, speakers are two feet from the front wall and the speakers are about 10 feet from listening position; thus half the room is behind the listening position. |
I suggest reading Robert Harley’s book "The Complete Guide to High End Audio", paying particular attention to the chapters on amplification.
Good reminder to take another look at it. Thanks!
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to get to concert hall avg 91db, (5 doublings) math says you need 32wpc.
a 94db momentary peak will need 64wpc. (you mentioned 60wpc)
The above explanation makes me think of another question, probably a dumb one. When I think of solid state, I understand that the continuous power rating is one thing and peak power supply is another. My question is: Is it true with tube amps that if an amp is rated at 60 wpc that is all you are going to get or do capacitors, power transformer, etc. come into play to allow higher peak power? Thanks for listening, Dsper |
Everyone, I appreciate the input. Seems like I have to start listening and go from there! |
Since this is a conversation about having enough power, what about going for a larger tube amp like 100 wpc.
This assumes that the 60 wpc amp builder can build an equal quality 100 wpc amp.
While it might be waste of money, I would never have to worry, correct?
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Now 'peak power supply' as you put it might be a current rating that has to do with what happens when you short out the power supply, and might be stated in amps. This is really a statement of how much energy is stored in the supply (and how big the spark will be when you short it out) rather than anything to do with how much power the amp makes.
To be perfectly clear, energy stored in the supply is how an amp can handle an orchestral crescendo that would cause it to exceed its continuous power rating, correct? |
The same is true of Audio Note, another brand I like, but, most of their stuff is quite pricey.
Audio Note and Esoteric are out of my league pricewise; and I question if one needs to spend that much...but maybe that shows my ignorance |
OP, what is your preamp? Didn't see that mentioned anywhere. My suggestion would be to get yourself a good tube pre and see how you like it with your DNA 500. I currently use two tubed preamps - CJ 17LS2 and PL Dialogue Premium. In my listening, the CJ is more nuanced and textured while the PL is more forward and analytical. The bass is better with the PL but that may be due to a slight impedance mismatch between the CJ and the DNA - 500. More tube rolling options with the PL, which I have done and can hear with the new Tylers even though they are not broken in yet. I also have a McCormack RLD solid state preamp that is not really that bad except it is a bit too smooth and polite for my taste. My expectation is that a tube amp will improve the imaging, layered sound stage, and sense of aliveness I think I hear when the treble gets better detail without
sibilance. Thank for listening, Dsper |
Hi All,
I appreciate the discussion and advice.
Figuring I had to start somewhere, I decided I had to start somewhere so I found a used CJ LP66S, and will go from there.
Thought it would be a fairly low cost way to see if I can hear a tube difference and sell it down the line if I decide to change it out.
Thanks for listening,
Dsper |
pkatsuleas wrote: Unfortunately, can't afford any Tannoys right now! ;-}
They seem to be catching my eye lately as well, though I have never heard them. Seem to have a high cost even used. |
Okay everyone,
The Conrad Johnson LP66S was delivered on Sunday and secreted into the man cave.
I set it up today while my better half was at exercise class: Theta ProBasic III DAC, PWT, PL Dialogue Premium, with the LP66S replacing the McCormack DNA-500, and going into Tyler Acoustics MMX5's. Saving the turntable for later.
Initial impressions after about three hours of listening:
First, no problem about power or loudness.
Second, the overall sound seems more dense. I lost some of that when I switched out the Thiel CS5's for the Tylers. Now it is mostly back about 80 - 90 percent. FWIW, I think the Thiels were known for that politeness at the expense of some dynamics.
Third, the bass seems more solid and clear in the mix while still being textured.
Fourth the "spit on the microphone" is back. I am listening to Adele's "19" and it has clearly returned. On the song "Love", there is noticeably more sheen to the celeste. Also more sheen and brass to the cymbals on JJ Cale's "Troubadour".
Fifth, I think there are a few more ambient clues but nothing near holographic that I can hear.
The previous owner was not using the amp routinely and suggested that the amp capacitors might need a couple of long listening sessions to reconstitute the capacitors.....
By the way, I would not be afraid to buy again from "Tuggs" in Washington state. Excellent packing job and the amp looks like new! No trouble with FedEx.
Lastly, given I have changed out both speakers and amps, I have sort of broken the rule about one component at a time. Having said that, there is still a touch of sibilance I noticed after installing the Tylers and may have to change out their resistors. Easy job as they are wired in behind the connection posts on the speaker backs. Or possibly change tubes in the preamp? Or maybe, I just need more time on the speakers as they are now about 75 hours from new :-)!
Such a fine mess I have created with things to learn and adjust.
So...right now I am happy.
Thanks for listening and all of the constructive comments. Much appreciated and keep any thoughts coming!
Dsper |
Hi All,
I reread this thread and want to thank you all for your comments and shared information. I did some more homework by reading other threads, referring to Harley's book, etc. and decided I needed "just do it" and purchase a tube amp. I figured used at $2,000 and a reputable manufacturer was a good place to start and would allow decent resale potential.
I have acquired a Conrad Johnson LP66S. I set it up about three weeks ago while my better half was at
exercise class: Theta ProBasic III DAC, Perfectwave Transport, PL Dialogue Premium and then my CJ 17LS2 preamp; with the
LP66S replacing McCormack DNA-500 and Coda CS amps, and going into Tyler Acoustics MMX5's.
Saving the turntable for later.
Initial impressions after some 30 hours of listening with the CJ amp:
First, no immediately noticeable problem with power or loudness.
Second, the overall sound seems more dense. I
lost some of that when I switched out the Thiel CS5's for the Tylers. Now it is
mostly back about 80 - 90 percent. FWIW, I think the Thiels were known for that
politeness at the expense of some dynamics. The bass with the tube amp seems more solid and clear in
the mix while still being textured.
Third, I think I hear more detail with the CJ amp. I am listening to Adele's "19" and on the song "Love", for example, there is noticeably more sheen to the celeste.
Also more sheen and brass to the cymbals on JJ Cale's "Troubadour".
FOURTH, I definitely have a layered soundstage and am listening to music and not just the speakers. I think there are more ambient
clues and better tonal decay. These positives really showed up with the CJ preamp. The PL preamp sounded lifeless in comparison. I mean like night and day different.
The previous owner was not using the CJ amp
routinely and suggested that the amp capacitors might need a couple of long
listening sessions to reconstitute the capacitors.....
By the way, I would not be afraid to buy again
from "Tuggs" in Washington state. Excellent packing job and the amp
looks like new! No trouble with FedEx.
Lastly, given I have changed out both speakers
and amps, I have broken the rule about changing one component at a time. Having
said that, there is still a touch of sibilance I noticed upon installing
the Tylers that has not gone away regardless of preamp/amp combinations. Poor recordings are not a fun listen.
The MM5Xs are brand new speakers with SEAS Tweeters and I have listened to them for about 100 hours. Tyler Lashbrook advised me from the very beginning that they can take a couple hundred hours to break in....
Such a fine mess I have created with things to
learn and adjust.
Most important, I can hear music and not just the speakers.
Again, I appreciate the responses and advice. You all helped me. Any further thoughts would be appreciated.
Thank you! Dsper |
Does it do this on all sources?
To be clear, I am talking about "bliss" and "sound" versus "blisss" and "ssound". It is not a problem on all CDs. Better recorded ones seem to be less of an issue. I had inserted my Hegel HD25 DAC and it was slightly worse and generally more harsh. My Theta R2R DAC is more resolving and detailed. I am wondering if the SEAS Excel tweeter is just going to be more work than I thought. Ty Lashbrook and I had discussed what resistor to use for the tweeters before I ordered the speakers. I do not recall where we landed on that discussion but he said that, once I had a couple hundred hours on the speakers, I could easily change the resistor to shape the sound a bit. I have no idea if a resistor change would solve the problem. And in all fairness, I have not yet called Ty to discuss. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
Hi atmasphere,
I need to hook up the turntable and have not done that yet.
Hear it in both channels.
Right now I am listening to a Leopold Stokowski remastered CD and things sound fine; of course, no vocals.
Dsper |
Okay, I am being obstinate and have not tried the turntable yet.
I took out the LP66S last evening and reinserted the CODA CS (weighs less than the DNA-500). The
sibilance pretty much went away. I reinserted the LP66S today and the
sibilance same back.
And I also heard what I would term a harsher sound such that I wanted to reduce volume (Yes, I realize that the volume levels between amps are not the same but there was a harshness).
So....
My tube rolling experience with preamps tells me that you can get these types of effect from different tubes. Does the same thing hold true for tube amp 6922 driver tubes?
Currently, there are Electro Harmonix tubes in the two driver positions and a Sovtek Reflector in the input/phase splitter position.
I know I do not like Electro Harmonix in my CJ preamp.
Wonder would happen if I changed out the Electro Harmonix tubes? Many blog comments indicate that many users do not like them....
Any thoughts?
Connected with Ty Lashbrook and he suggested changing the tweeter resistors to a four or five ohm from the installed 3 ohm; I am thinking the tube change should come first.
Thanks for listening,
Dsper
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I have a pair of 1960's Amperex NOS "Butt Uglies" coming from Brent Jesse. Figured to try them even though they are like double the price of the Sovtecs and EHs.
If they improve things, then maybe I might try some" really good", i.e., expensive ones. |
Do you have another source besides CD?
It's taking longer than a week for the USPS to ship my "butt uglies" 200 miles. Should arrive on Monday...really looking forward to breaking the covid19 monotony :-) ! In the meantime, I set up my turntable.This is a Technics SL1200Mk 5 with an AT150MLX cartridge. I still have a bit of sibilance so I am hoping the butt uglies will help. |
Well, the 1960's Amperex tubes have been installed about ten hours now and I can hear less sibilance and the sound is clearer to me. This is with both the DAC and turntable.
I feel I should be using the digital front end to evaluate any further amp changes, as my digital is further along the quality curve.
The analog seems a bit thin and tipped to the treble in comparison to the digital which is fuller with better soundstage.
I have sent the Technics 1200 off to KABUSA for a tonearm rewire and intend to install their fluid damper that had just been sitting in the box. We'll see after that.
I have both a felt and rubber mat. Not sure I can tell a difference but the best sound has been when using both mats! with the rubber mat sitting on the felt mat; and with appropriate adjustment in tonearm height.
While cost is not necessarily a quality gauge, with $6,500 list in my digital and less than a $1,000 list in the analog; I keep thinking real improvement is going to require a better table and cartridge.
Anyway, I appreciate the comments that have been shared on this thread. I have learned a lot.
At some point, I am going to be looking for another tube amp so stay tuned!
Thanks, Dsper
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What you will/may notice when a tube amp is driving a speaker with low impedance dips is an uneven frequency response, e.g. the speakers may sound "bright".
I read this comment again and realize I probably ignored the the second part of the comment about how this could make the speakers sound bright. This got me to thinking and I re-examined my setup one more time. To make a long story short, I finally realized that while I was moving equipment in and out, I had moved my Synergistic Research interconnects from their customary location between the DAC and the the Preamp. I moved them back and the sibilance is greatly reduced. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
mesch wrote"...
and have a better understanding of what I am actually looking for in a system." I could not agree more as the new speakers and tube amp have opened my eyes. I have definitively learned that I value soundstage width and depth, and tonal textures, more than seeing the "spit on the microphone" detail that I was getting with the Thiels. The Tyler Acoustics speakers, combined with my room and setup, have largely disappeared in my room. I am listening to music and not just speakers. |
millercarbon wrote: If your $1k table isn't kicking butt on your DAC its not the table. Its the setup, or your choices (AT? Really?).
The rewired tone arm and new interconnects from KABUSA have really improved the sound of the Technics table. Still not sure it is better than the DAC/Transport. The Audio Technica cartridge could be part of my problem as I was not knowledgeable about tone arm and cartridge compatibility. I would have to admit the AT cartridge is a bad match for the light weight Technics tone arm. Anyone interested in a AT150MLX cartridge? Anyway, I am going every way at once now. I think I need to decide, for sure, that the new speakers are keepers; and then understand what other tube amps sound like with the speakers. Thanks for listening and thanks for everyone's advice, which I hope keeps coming. Dsper |
Happy New Year everybody,
For those that are interested, I reinserted my Thiels and DNA-500 and got instantly reconnected with what I liked about that combo - there just is a good weight and tone to that combination.
In comparison, the small Tyler Acoustics MM5x's and CJ tube amp are ..well...a bit more thin, less solid sounding. The dynamics and sound stage are better with the Tylers and the CJ tube amp. Detail is more in your face with the Thiels compared to the Tylers, which are just as resolving but more... soft...?...laid back. Both setups have pace but the Tylers with the tube amp seem more musical.
I knew the Tylers (SEAS Excel drivers for tweeters and mids with Dayton 10 inch woofers) were probably not going to be "right" for me as they are more of an entry level speaker. My original goal was just to get a handle on tube amp sound and the Tyler sound; both of which I like.
Tyler is willing to build me a pair Linbrook Signatures if I want them. These come with all SEAS magnesium drivers and Millennium tweeters. I expect that these would provide the weight and tone. They are 48 inches tall, which I think is a good fit in my listening room.
The caveat is that the Linbrooks come with dual woofers so they are a four ohm, 88 dbl speaker. So...now my new question is can one find good tube amps that will drive a 4 ohm speaker that might dip to 3 ohms?
Thanks for listening,
Dsper
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Hi Everyone,
What is missing in the above thread is I am considering a pair of Tyler Acoustic Linbrook Signatures.
Because of the dual woofers, they will be 4 ohm,, and not 8 ohm with a sensitivity of around 88dbl.
The top end of loudness for me is about 80 to 85 decibels at my listening position, which is about 8 or 9 feet from the speakers.
My goal was to try to stick to 60 watt tube amps to avoid the heat and very high tube replacement that comes with bigger tube amps.
Everyone's comments and suggestions are appreciated. I am 68 and figure this might be my last all new system and I want to try to get it right; which causes me to ask these ridiculous questions. Thanks!
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