I have never owned a tube amplifier before and am planning to purchase one with a minimum of 50 watts per channel to mate with 8 ohm 88 dbl speakers.
My hope is experienced audiogoners will share their expertise regarding how to approach this. While I realize listening is the best way to learn about sound and compatibility; I want to learn a better understanding about brands with less maintenance and longer tube life, how to decide between mono or stereo,can a newbie play with bias or is auto biasing a better first choice, etc.
I would also appreciate what to look for in selecting a used tube amp to identify one that might be in need of repair. For example, with solid state depending on the brand, capacitor replacement can be more of a concern. Any advice on what to look out for or ask about with used tube amps would be appreciated.
A big question I have is how to understand the relationship between power tubes like E34's, 120.s, etc. and, I guess the driver? tubes like 12au7's and 12at7's. That is to ask which is more critical to the overall sound of the amp? FWIW, I routinely tube roll with my preamps.
I 've read through a number of threads but maybe someone can point me to good ones I may have missed.
What is missing in the above thread is I am considering a pair of Tyler Acoustic Linbrook Signatures.
Because of the dual woofers, they will be 4 ohm,, and not 8 ohm with a sensitivity of around 88dbl.
The top end of loudness for me is about 80 to 85 decibels at my listening position, which is about 8 or 9 feet from the speakers.
My goal was to try to stick to 60 watt tube amps to avoid the heat and very high tube replacement that comes with bigger tube amps.
Everyone's comments and suggestions are appreciated. I am 68 and figure this might be my last all new system and I want to try to get it right; which causes me to ask these ridiculous questions. Thanks!
1) linear tube audio’s zotl technology by berning does generate heat from output tubes, albeit less than typical transformer coupled tube amps of the same output that drive the tubes harder/hotter
2) power output of a tube amp matters, it matters greatly, esp. in light of the op’s 88 db/w/m speaker efficiency - unless you are in a very small room listening nearfield that speaker efficiency rules out many low wattage tube amps
3) yes most amps that employ the russian 6c33c tube will generate quite a lot of heat
4) ss and tube amps can both be low or high distortion, though tube amp's characteristic distortion tends to be more listenable and less harsh, even euphonic - as always, the specifics of the amp, its design, the tubes employed, and the speaker driven are key to the distortion produced and how it will affect the sound
Good post @davehg I concur. Your post reminded me of
VAC, the Statement 452 I did not like (i think it was paired with ML) could have been the pairing, not that I can afford the amp anyway, that is (was) the fun of audio shows
Airtight amps, it reminded me these sounded very good, I was much impressed with it, could have been good pairing as well.
Yes, whatever “perfection” means. Somewhat of a minimalist system, it combines new and old tech and sounds exquisite
that’s is key, it has to work for you @roadsterluver
Life is too short for me buying a conventional tubes amplifier: heat and distortion from failing tubes with a life that is shorten by each months....I hate heat.... 😁
Perhaps i dramatize a bit....
Very dramatic :),
agree that life is too short
agree with the hate of heat (I live in South Florida)
Heat from tubes, it depends on which amplifier design you get, I have Atmasphere’s and the Russian tubes biased in whichever way Ralph does it it is very good even for South Florida standards, let me put it this way, I feel more heat coming from 2x 6C33C on a SET amp than from 28x 6AS7G from my Atmasphere amps, subjectively
What distortion? if the tube amp is well designed there is less distortion even at high SPL than with other amps including SS (I am referring to the OTLs here not every tube amp)
Shortened life? doesn’t the components on SS amps have shortened life too? don’t we too? let me make a case, true you can expect the tubes on my specific amp to fail or degrade in 10 years, the caps will degrade the same way (possibly more). aren’t we using tubes from the 30’s and 40’s sometimes? shortened life is very relative as a term
I have heard the latest ZOTL at the South Florida audio show (wasn’t the last audio show on earth?) it was good but subjectively I prefer my Atmasphere OTL’s,
I respect your comments @mahgister of course, I just differ a little with some of them. Oh an I know you are not making a case for SS vs Tubes.
I am not affiliated with Atmasphere in any way, as a matter of fact I have tried other amps because I was using my OTLs as a reference and I was convinced these would be bettered by other amps (tube and SS) and it turned out to be a complex matter to beat that reference, I have heard at shows (Axpona, RMAF, South Florida) all sorts of amps, including the super expensive ones (ARC, Pass and such), I guess for my taste and my liking OTL provides that magic.
Man if I was new to tubes, this thread would leave me confused and wondering where to go.
Forget the numbers for a bit. Just go and listen to a few tube amps in your budget range and a few slightly higher in price. Listen to a range of tube types - EL34’s, 6500/KT88, and SET amps such as 300b tubes. You may find you prefer the sound of specific tube types, although newer amps seem to blur the line between how specific tubes should “sound”.
Power is important but it shouldn’t dictate your decision, it’s just a factor. I’ve successfully run low powered SET amps with less efficient speakers, and I’ve had higher powered amps struggle to sound good with super efficient speakers. Try out with your speakers and read forums to see what has worked well with other owners who use your speakers.
A pragmatic factor with tube amps is the number and cost of the tubes. You’ll be tempted to try different tubes which do sound different, and that is far more costly on a 300b amp than with an EL34 amp, and costly on amps that use a lot of tubes or esoteric, NOS tubes. I try to avoid amps that use tubes I can’t easily source online. I currently use a 300b 10wpc SET amp (Woo WA5) to drive Devore Nines, which are tube friendly. The same amp did well with ProAc Super Tablettes which shouldn’t be as friendly. I’ve owned more powerful EL34 amps (the mighty AirTight ATM3 mono amps) and will shortly own a Leben CS600x, which is 30ish watts. I’ve had failures with well lauded amps (the WAVAC being an example that didn’t work for me) and pleasant surprises with amps that were not well known (remember the Antique Sound Labs)?
There are few rules that seem to be absolute with tubes, other than avoiding pairing with speakers that are low impedance (and not running unless you have speakers connected as was mentioned). Tube amps are fun, wonderful creatures that will delight you, and if you choose well, will encourage you to try different tubes and enjoy. Biasing is not hard with most amps - a ten dollar multimeter and a screw driver is all you need in most cases, and most newer amps use auto bias.
My favorite reasonably priced tube amps (may mean buying used) of those I’ve heard, and which mate with a decent range of speakers, include:
VAC Avatar SE Leben CS600 series Line Magnetic amps Audio Research VT60 VTL amps (newer)
Life is too short for me buying a conventional tubes amplifier: heat and distortion from failing tubes with a life that is shorten by each months....I hate heat.... 😁
Perhaps i dramatize a bit....
But go read about the Berning ZOTL tube technology....
No heat at all....
Super extended tube life... Like more than 10 years of use each day....
NO negative reviews at all, all glowing reviews....
For the low price a steal..... It is what they say....I never try one but it is what i will buy eyes closed....
At least read about ZOTL.....This is my goal with this post.....Read about it....
Berning is a physicist that reinvented tube use in audio.... It is not a frequent event....
There is a great deal of tube amp experience offered in many of the submissions. The sheer volume of responses reflects the complexity of the variables involved. If there really was a simple answer, we would all have had our respective audio epiphanies long ago. There are MANY very fine tube (and of course solid state) amps in all price points. The salient variable is, simply put, your own personal taste. How many times have you heard that, right? I have been on the quixotic search for 50 years and it has led me everywhere. Fundamentally, the answer is relative. At present, I have a McIntosh MC275VI and a Benchmark DAC3 with a pair of Triangle Signature Theta bookshelves and a REL T5i playing classical and jazz via Tidal. Perfection? Yes, whatever “perfection” means. Somewhat of a minimalist system, it combines new and old tech and sounds exquisite.
@dsper Ask him if he can wire the woofers in series rather than parallel. It will require a little bit of adjustment in the crossover but otherwise the math of the drivers in the box is exactly the same. Contrary to popular myth, the woofers will be no less easy to 'control'. But it will make the speaker much more friendly to tube amps and all amps will have lower distortion driving a load like that.
For those that are interested, I reinserted my Thiels and DNA-500 and got instantly reconnected with what I liked about that combo - there just is a good weight and tone to that combination.
In comparison, the small Tyler Acoustics MM5x's and CJ tube amp are ..well...a bit more thin, less solid sounding. The dynamics and sound stage are better with the Tylers and the CJ tube amp. Detail is more in your face with the Thiels compared to the Tylers, which are just as resolving but more... soft...?...laid back. Both setups have pace but the Tylers with the tube amp seem more musical.
I knew the Tylers (SEAS Excel drivers for tweeters and mids with Dayton 10 inch woofers) were probably not going to be "right" for me as they are more of an entry level speaker. My original goal was just to get a handle on tube amp sound and the Tyler sound; both of which I like.
Tyler is willing to build me a pair Linbrook Signatures if I want them. These come with all SEAS magnesium drivers and Millennium tweeters. I expect that these would provide the weight and tone. They are 48 inches tall, which I think is a good fit in my listening room.
The caveat is that the Linbrooks come with dual woofers so they are a four ohm, 88 dbl speaker. So...now my new question is can one find good tube amps that will drive a 4 ohm speaker that might dip to 3 ohms?
Maybe I need to get a couple of tube amps as it is turning to winter in the Indianapolis area!
Changing the interconnects certainly helped with the sibilance.
I also took out my AT cartridge and inserted an Ortofon Pro S40, which is supposed to be a "DJ" cartridge but with a better stylus...seems to have made an improvement.
I am learning that changing out speakers is a big deal and has me rethinking everything!
@dsper I'm glad you are enjoying your rig, did the sibilance go away? Probably not with some tracks. We have a cold front coming now here in Florida, time to turn on my amps.
The Audio Technica cartridge could be part of my problem as I was not
knowledgeable about tone arm and cartridge compatibility. I would have
to admit the AT cartridge is a bad match for the light weight Technics
tone arm. Anyone interested in a AT150MLX cartridge?
The stylus often suffers in older cartridges- the suspension in the cantilever can perish whether the cartridge is used or not. At that point it will sound tipped up in the treble and harsher/more sibilant than it should. If the cartridge is also a poor match for the arm that certainly isn't helping things! I use an older SL1200 in the recording studio to play back cuts we have made on the LP mastering setup. I use a Grado Gold in that arm and it seems to work quite well with it- tracks well, smooth and detailed.
mesch wrote"...
and have a better understanding of what I am actually looking for in a system."
I could not agree more as the new speakers and tube amp have opened my eyes. I have definitively learned that I value soundstage width and depth, and tonal textures, more than seeing the "spit on the microphone" detail that I was getting with the Thiels. The Tyler Acoustics speakers, combined with my room and setup, have largely disappeared in my room. I am listening to music and not just speakers.
millercarbon wrote: If your $1k table isn't kicking butt on your DAC its not the table. Its the setup, or your choices (AT? Really?).
The rewired tone arm and new interconnects from KABUSA have really improved the sound of the Technics table. Still not sure it is better than the DAC/Transport.
The Audio Technica cartridge could be part of my problem as I was not knowledgeable about tone arm and cartridge compatibility. I would have to admit the AT cartridge is a bad match for the light weight Technics tone arm. Anyone interested in a AT150MLX cartridge?
Anyway, I am going every way at once now. I think I need to decide, for sure, that the new speakers are keepers; and then understand what other tube amps sound like with the speakers.
Thanks for listening and thanks for everyone's advice, which I hope keeps coming.
What you will/may notice when a tube amp is driving a speaker with low impedance dips is an uneven frequency response, e.g. the speakers may sound "bright".
I read this comment again and realize I probably ignored the the second part of the comment about how this could make the speakers sound bright.
This got me to thinking and I re-examined my setup one more time. To make a long story short, I finally realized that while I was moving equipment in and out, I had moved my Synergistic Research interconnects from their customary location between the DAC and the the Preamp. I moved them back and the sibilance is greatly reduced.
"Wolf_Garcia", said,
clear as a bell using a 12wpc or so little SEP amp...no clue how hard I'm pushing the little amp (it gets loud...sometimes...often
"12" whole watts? Whoa, Why such a powerful amp? I still love my "4" watt, PSE mono-blocks. Now nicknamed "The Twin Beasts". And with 132+Lbs. between them? It works out to 16.5Lbs. of amplifier, per "1" whole watt! You helped me out with those a couple of years ago Wolf! Remember? "The one's with the 300B's". Still pushing the same 98DB speakers too. A "purely resistive load". And thanks again for the help!
Um, just to say. From now on? I believe that I'll taking "Ralph's", word on it......
Desper, I have been following your journey. Since retirement, one of the things I have enjoyed in this hobby was the exploration of different approaches. From this I have gotten to understand what others before me have found, and have a better understanding of what I am actually looking for in a system.
In regards to the analog seeming a bit thin and tipped to the treble in comparison to your digital which is fuller with better soundstage, you may notice the tonearm exhibiting a "Tail up" attitude with the arm resting in the groove towards the end - even with the arm height adjustment at its lowest setting. If so, use of a lightweight (your cartridge tracks light ~ 1.25g suggesting high compliance) 3mm cartridge/headshell spacer installed between the cartridge and headshell using longer screws would allow for a more optimal (level with record) VTA or tonearm attitude.
Your MicroLine™ stylus may have a much better chance of findings it's sweet spot SRA/VTA once basic geometry is improved.
OP, As larryi said sibilance is present in many recordings, no matter what you do is inherently in it, probably not what you listen to but Marc Anthony - Flor Pálida and A-ha - unplugged Hunting High and Low could show you some sibilance which is unavoidable.
I just have to ask.... I am curious. Just what amplifiers would I be looking at, if they were "tube amps", which "Ralph", has designed and possibly also built? I for one, want to check them out.
While cost is not necessarily a quality gauge, with $6,500 list in my digital and less than a $1,000 list in the analog; I keep thinking real improvement is going to require a better table and cartridge.
I had what I thought was a really nice digital front end. Very happy with it. Until I got the idea to drag out my 30 year old Technics to compare, just for kicks. The cantilever on the Stanton 681EEE had somehow gotten bent. Pliers bent it fairly straight looking enough without breaking, this is just for fun anyway, oh wait I need a phono stage, drag out an even older Kenwood integrated (back in the 70's they all had phono stages built in) and fired it up. Holy crap. What the.... was still playing records when the wife came home. That sounds really good, what is it? Tom Petty. No I mean what, it sounds so good! (She couldn't see the turntable, assumed it was some kind of special CD.) Its a record. Dang! Well it sounds really good!
If your $1k table isn't kicking butt on your DAC its not the table. Its the setup, or your choices (AT? Really?).
Get some Nobsound springs ($30) adjust so its almost fully compressed using the least amount of springs you can. This will improve bottom end while taming the top end, and you will be able to fine tune and tailor the amount by adding springs or weight. Less springs/more weight more bottom end/less top end. And vice versa.
Then when you go shopping for a better table skip everything that uses an interconnect. Interconnects on phono adds a whole bunch of connections, each one harmful to the delicate phono cartridge signal. Interconnects introduce noise, distortion, and expense. Stick with arms with hard wired phono leads. Better sound, less money.
Keep in mind that sibilance is in a lot of vocal recordings; if you try to kill it by rolling off the tweeter (the resistors you mention), something else might be lost. The most annoying vocal sibilance I hear tends to be in classical choral recordings, but then again, sibilance is pretty prominent in live choral performances as well.
Have you tried experimenting with speaker placement, toe-in and rake angle? In particular, toe-in and rake angle can change the sound quite a bit in the range where sibilance occurs.
Well, the 1960's Amperex tubes have been installed about ten hours now and I can hear less sibilance and the sound is clearer to me. This is with both the DAC and turntable.
I feel I should be using the digital front end to evaluate any further amp changes, as my digital is further along the quality curve.
The analog seems a bit thin and tipped to the treble in comparison to the digital which is fuller with better soundstage.
I have sent the Technics 1200 off to KABUSA for a tonearm rewire and intend to install their fluid damper that had just been sitting in the box. We'll see after that.
I have both a felt and rubber mat. Not sure I can tell a difference but the best sound has been when using both mats! with the rubber mat sitting on the felt mat; and with appropriate adjustment in tonearm height.
While cost is not necessarily a quality gauge, with $6,500 list in my digital and less than a $1,000 list in the analog; I keep thinking real improvement is going to require a better table and cartridge.
Anyway, I appreciate the comments that have been shared on this thread. I have learned a lot.
At some point, I am going to be looking for another tube amp so stay tuned!
My Heresy IIIs (allegedly 99db efficiency) with my recently acquired MQA streamer and higher capability turntable cartridge are clear as a bell using a 12wpc or so little SEP amp...no clue how hard I'm pushing the little amp (it gets loud...sometimes...often alcohol related so SUE ME) but I'm very sensitive to overload distortion and seem to be using a relatively small amount of the wattage as I hear no breakup or distortion...none...the bass under 58hz is covered swimmingly by 2 powered subs.
In the meantime, I set up my turntable.This is a Technics SL1200Mk 5 with an AT150MLX cartridge.
Turntables, especially those with high output, can have a variety of issues causing sibilance. Make sure you have a low capacitance cable between the tonearm and preamp- that will help prevent brightness. The cable should not be more than a meter and 12-20pf per foot is a good value for capacitance of the cable.
The mechanical setup of the cartridge in the arm (VTA, tracking angle and the like) also can affect its tonality. The platter pad can too- the rubber mat found on most Technics machines isn’t helpful. This is all probably a topic for another thread, but since it all affects sibilance I felt I should mention this.
It's taking longer than a week for the USPS to ship my "butt uglies" 200 miles. Should arrive on Monday...really looking forward to breaking the covid19 monotony :-) !
In the meantime, I set up my turntable.This is a Technics SL1200Mk 5 with an AT150MLX cartridge.
I still have a bit of sibilance so I am hoping the butt uglies will help.
I have a pair of 1960's Amperex NOS "Butt Uglies" coming from Brent Jesse. Figured to try them even though they are like double the price of the Sovtecs and EHs.
If they improve things, then maybe I might try some" really good", i.e., expensive ones.
My tube rolling experience with preamps tells me that you can get these
types of effect from different tubes. Does the same thing hold true for
tube amp 6922 driver tubes?
Currently, there are Electro
Harmonix tubes in the two driver positions and a Sovtek Reflector in the
input/phase splitter position.
I know I do not like Electro Harmonix in my CJ preamp.
Wonder would happen if I changed out the Electro Harmonix tubes?
You've just put your finger on exactly the problem with using 6922/6DJ8s in amplifiers. Its hard to find a good one! The tube is very prone to microphonics and harsh sound. The Russian tubes IMO made this problem even worse.
Yes, if you have decent tubes the sound of the amp will change quite a lot. I've personally had terrible luck with the EH 6922. IMO, its pretty easy to find better sounding tubes than any of the Russian-made miniature tubes- 12AX7, 12AU7, 6922 and so on. Its not surprising at all to hear that a microphonic 6922 is causing silibance!!
Okay, I am being obstinate and have not tried the turntable yet.
I took out the LP66S last evening and reinserted the CODA CS (weighs less than the DNA-500). The
sibilance pretty much went away. I reinserted the LP66S today and the
sibilance same back.
And I also heard what I would term a harsher sound such that I wanted to reduce volume (Yes, I realize that the volume levels between amps are not the same but there was a harshness).
So....
My tube rolling experience with preamps tells me that you can get these types of effect from different tubes. Does the same thing hold true for tube amp 6922 driver tubes?
Currently, there are Electro Harmonix tubes in the two driver positions and a Sovtek Reflector in the input/phase splitter position.
I know I do not like Electro Harmonix in my CJ preamp.
Wonder would happen if I changed out the Electro Harmonix tubes? Many blog comments indicate that many users do not like them....
Any thoughts?
Connected with Ty Lashbrook and he suggested changing the tweeter resistors to a four or five ohm from the installed 3 ohm; I am thinking the tube change should come first.
Some very useful information here. My Harbeth speakers and room size are nearly identical to yours. I've got a VAC KT88 amp that sounds amazing IMO. Not sure exactly the output perhaps 75w?
To be clear, I am talking about "bliss" and "sound" versus "blisss" and "ssound".
It is not a problem on all CDs. Better recorded ones seem to be less of an issue.
I had inserted my Hegel HD25 DAC and it was slightly worse and generally more harsh.
My Theta R2R DAC is more resolving and detailed.
I am wondering if the SEAS Excel tweeter is just going to be more work than I thought.
Ty Lashbrook and I had discussed what resistor to use for the tweeters before I ordered the speakers. I do not recall where we landed on that discussion but he said that, once I had a couple hundred hours on the speakers, I could easily change the resistor to shape the sound a bit. I have no idea if a resistor change would solve the problem. And in all fairness, I have not yet called Ty to discuss.
Regarding the sibilance- that really shouldn't be showing up at all, even on a new speaker (it might be bright until it breaks in, but sibilance suggests something wrong).
c-j gear is simply beyond reproach in build quality and sound quality and there is certainly an expected, lovely synergy between the 17LS2 and the LP66...
my premier 16LS2 and ET5 are forever pieces - they may be equalled by others but ever surpassed for the listening pleasure they bring
I reread this thread and want to thank you all for your comments and shared information. I did some more homework by reading other threads, referring to Harley's book, etc. and decided I needed "just do it" and purchase a tube amp. I figured used at $2,000 and a reputable manufacturer was a good place to start and would allow decent resale potential.
I have acquired a Conrad Johnson LP66S. I set it up about three weeks ago while my better half was at
exercise class: Theta ProBasic III DAC, Perfectwave Transport, PL Dialogue Premium and then my CJ 17LS2 preamp; with the
LP66S replacing McCormack DNA-500 and Coda CS amps, and going into Tyler Acoustics MMX5's.
Saving the turntable for later.
Initial impressions after some 30 hours of listening with the CJ amp:
First, no immediately noticeable problem with power or loudness.
Second, the overall sound seems more dense. I
lost some of that when I switched out the Thiel CS5's for the Tylers. Now it is
mostly back about 80 - 90 percent. FWIW, I think the Thiels were known for that
politeness at the expense of some dynamics. The bass with the tube amp seems more solid and clear in
the mix while still being textured.
Third, I think I hear more detail with the CJ amp. I am listening to Adele's "19" and on the song "Love", for example, there is noticeably more sheen to the celeste.
Also more sheen and brass to the cymbals on JJ Cale's "Troubadour".
FOURTH, I definitely have a layered soundstage and am listening to music and not just the speakers. I think there are more ambient
clues and better tonal decay. These positives really showed up with the CJ preamp. The PL preamp sounded lifeless in comparison. I mean like night and day different.
The previous owner was not using the CJ amp
routinely and suggested that the amp capacitors might need a couple of long
listening sessions to reconstitute the capacitors.....
By the way, I would not be afraid to buy again
from "Tuggs" in Washington state. Excellent packing job and the amp
looks like new! No trouble with FedEx.
Lastly, given I have changed out both speakers
and amps, I have broken the rule about changing one component at a time. Having
said that, there is still a touch of sibilance I noticed upon installing
the Tylers that has not gone away regardless of preamp/amp combinations. Poor recordings are not a fun listen.
The MM5Xs are brand new speakers with SEAS Tweeters and I have listened to them for about 100 hours. Tyler Lashbrook advised me from the very beginning that they can take a couple hundred hours to break in....
Such a fine mess I have created with things to
learn and adjust.
Most important, I can hear music and not just the speakers.
Again, I appreciate the responses and advice. You all helped me. Any further thoughts would be appreciated.
What you see here, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the more interesting effects of the demise of brick/mortar retail. To quote the President: “Sad.” I recommend massive online research and Bach. Used to be you could trundle over to the stereo store and get all this out of the way right there in the actual presence of the gear! What a concept! As an old retailer I can tell you I found this virus-enabled retail revolution to be a bit abrupt.
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