Network Switches

@david_ten 
and forgive me,  but if something is faithfully reproduced, it can not be 'more faithfully' reproduced

David
I am just trying to understand how a DACs performance can be improved beyond an already faithful reproduction.

Hiya everybody

I am a music lover (not an audiophile) who has spent a reasonable amount of money to listen to music as close as possible as to having sat in the front row of where the music was recorded              

A large part of my budget was spent on a high end DAC to give me 'as close to the original as possible' audio out. According to the manufacturer (I am no expert) a digital source along with a high end DAC will give two massive benefits. It will isolate the audio output from anything that would have been considered 'interference' and 'degradation' in the old analog world, and faithfully reproduces the audio from the digital stream. It does so and it sounds wonderful.

My wired and wireless network, configured and installed by an A/V consultant, is more than capable of handling everything thrown at it including several concurrent digital high definition video streams, so even the very highest quality digital audio stream is a breeze.

I was researching switches when I found your thread which has confused me.

Why would I install something which will change the audio that the studio took so much care to create, and my DAC has taken so much care to faithfully reproduce? It just doesn't make any sense to me. Have I misunderstood what the switch manufacturers, and some of the posters on here, have stated a switch will do to my digital audio? I though a switch was a device that simply connected point a to point b.

I have copied this post to the manufacturer of my DAC and to my A/V consultant to see if they can shed some light on this.


Thanks for reading

Jason

@david_ten 

Thanks for the reply
But this doesnt realy answer my question
I currently have a high end DAC reproducing audio exactly as it was digitised. Why would I install a switch that the manufacturers say will change that?

Ok , lets forget, for the moment, analog v digital,cables, harmonics, power supplies etc etc
Every single manufacturer and supplier of these special ‘audiophile’ switches and every single ‘reviewer’ claims that these switches will "improve"  the digital audio being passed through them.

Every single one

This is why I asked my original question, because I could not see how a switch working at level 2 or 3 can affect the encoded audio (or video, they also claim !) in level 7.

Are you saying that they can or they can’t. It can NOT be both, and bear in mind that you keep repeating that the digital signal is not degraded by a switch

All I want is a ‘yes, they can’ or a ‘no, they can’t’ please. No dissertations on analog theory please

@atdavid

With few exceptions in this thread, and we can discount them, has anyone suggested that the signal or data degrades.

This has thrown me
Yes, many of you have. It is the whole point of this thread and my original question

Several people have states that a 'special' switch will prevent it from doing so. Or are you now saying that a special switch is totally unnecessary as the signal or data does not degrade ? Please make up your mind

Still nobody is answering me
Why, if the digital signal is not being degraded and is therefore reaching its destination intact (which is all that matters), do I need a 'special' switch

@nonoise

are you suggesting that I can improve on hearing a piece of music that sounds exactly as it sounded when it was encoded? And I can acheive that with a switch?
Or are you suggesting that my DAC does not decode properly?

@almarg 

interactions involving circuitry that is downstream of the Ethernet interface in the DAC or other receiving component. Interactions that are dependent on the spectral composition of the signal waveforms on the Ethernet link, which in turn can be presumed to vary significantly as a function of the characteristics of the particular switch and its power supply

I would have thought that in such an expensive piece of equipment the audio analog output would have been isolated from the ethernet digital input
I really don't understand this stuff. But I guess my answer is switches should be avoided if possible

@nonoise

@jason_k2017, are you suggesting that what you're hearing is exactly as it was encoded? That your DAC is perfect?

The one thing I do know is that if you decode an encoded stream in a quality DAC with the the same codec with which it was encoded then it will be as near to perfect as anything else I can throw at my sound system. My turntable (which is no longer used) is not perfect, my CD player is not perfect, my DB receiver is not perfect. Nor are yours. None are

You should read up a little on codecs, digitzation and the capablilities and limitations of the human ear. There is a point at which nobody can detect an changes to audio. If you can't grasp that, think of your eyes instead and why film only needs only to be at 24 frames per second and why you have to be reasonably young to see any difference between 1080 and 4K TV

No, only a one or two people who do not understand digital data transmission have suggested degradation of the digital signal. That vast majority of the posts have spoke to electrical noise being the most likely culprit.

So if electrical noise does not degrade the digital signal, why do I need this special switch? 

and ' for the umpteenth time' almarg
Can a digital switch, as the manufacturers and 'reviewers' say it can, improve audio and video streams passing through it. ?
If you don't know just say so

@three_easy_paymentsing

Just because the sound is better after inserting a new switch does not mean the switch affected the encoded audio. Couldn't improvements be due solely to a reduction of RF/EM noise in the chain? 

So you are saying 'yes, a switch can improve the audio and video being passed through it?  or no it can't.  It really can not be both
Still a simple question.   Again, if you don't know. just say so

This is so very frustrating. I came on hear to ask a simple question about a digital switch and all I get is people trying to show off their extensive but completely irrelevant knowledge of old technology hurling abuse at me to cover their total inability to answer a simple question

I have moved on from analog. All of my source is digital. None of the stuff that several on here are trying to impress me with from their presumably vast experience in analog can change the stream of ones and zeros into a different stream of ones and zeros. No crackles, rumbles, glitches, interference from non-magic cables and power supplies. Nothing, zilch.

I am sorry if the digital revolution has made a lot of your knowledge totally redundant but that is progress.

Can you really not see how laughable it is to think that a power cord in a switch can affect a digital file or stream?

Put on your Bluetooth earphones and walk away from the source. Sound degradation? No. It will eventually cut out. It is there or not there. Loosen your HDMI cable on your TV. Video degradation? No. It cuts out. It is there or not there. Copy a few thousand photographs across the network. Blurry? No. They are digital. Welcome to the digital world. Call a friend in China on your cellphone. crackles and pops and white noise ? No. Clear speech. It is digital. Stream a music file through your network to a DAC. Degradation? No. Improvement? No. It is DIGITAL        get it?

I really do thank you all for your input and in the unlikely event of me reverting to analog I will certainly ask your advice but on my question regarding a digital switch I will wait for replies from those more experienced in digital.

(actually I have my replies from my A/V consultant and my friend with the video production and distribution company. They live and breath digital audio/video so I will take their advice. So no switch for me. They are very clear on the subject and you really, really would not like their replies)

Please no more replies regarding analog problems (although I am ready for more of 'you don't understand' and the 'Your post illustrates a gross ignorance' and 'I have years of experience in yarda yarda' )

Once again, hurling abuse at those who question your perceptions will not make them reality…ooooh but here it comes again!

@atdavid

See here is the thing, when my battery is starting to run down in my BT headset, I know .... the sound starts to change. The bits are the same, but the sound coming out, you know that antiquated analog stuff .... ya, that starts to fall apart. I guess I should assume it was one of those "digital" experts that designed the analog section. 

Exactly !!!!!!!  it is the analog audio that is breaking up. NOT THE DIGITAL stream

On every set of BT headphones or earphones that I own, when the battery gets low, I get a warning while it is still performing perfectly, then another while still performing perfectly and  then it shuts down. At no stage does the digital input get interfered with or the audio 'degrade' . You need to modernize your equipment.

I am going to guess you are on the "young" side

Actually no. I was lecturing on modulation techniques in digital communications in the '70s. I was part of the test group for Quadrature Amplitude Modulation utilizing Trellis Encoding in the early '80s And my IQ of 164 got me into the higest levels of military technology development

Oh but I forgot...........   I am ignorant


@three_easy_payments

I couldn't agree more. Why won't you answer the question about routers and switches possibly introducing EM/RF noise OUTSIDE of the signal path just like any other piece of electrical powered gear??? The quality of the signal is not the end-all in audio. I'm still patiently waiting.

You must try to understand that almost everything can introduce EM/RF noise. Every single device from the audio server, through every device my audio passes through on the internet and then my exchange to my router to my DAC can. Dozens and possibly hundreds of devices. But none of those sites think it necessary to use a magic cable or a magic switch. You really, really ought to attend a course on digital audio, or research it yourself

-------

As nobody in here will giive a yes/no answer regarding my original question I will just go with the experts' advice
And why does this forum allow so many of you trolls? You are just preventing me from finding a sensible answer

I am truly sorry to all those in here who were trying to give me a sensible answer. All I wanted was a straight knowledgeable answer

But I really can not put up any longer with this ignorant, jealous moron atdavid

To be honest when my experts replied to me regarding these nonsense products they did also warn me that I would find idiots like him on any ‘audiophile’ forum.

Ok atdavid, I give in. You are the big man, you are always right, everybody else has to listen to you and your ears are so much better than mine, and your equipment is the finest in the world and you know ten times more than me about digital communications and...and...and

You have achieved your objective of wearing me down with your insults and general assholishness (did I spell that correctly?

and yes it was measured 164 (around 130 more than you, it would seem)

As I have my experts’ replies I no longer need to listen to his drivel

Bye