Need help choosing my first amp for my first speakers

Not a bad choice at all.  That amp has plenty of oooomph and should keep those speakers well fed.  One suggestion, try an inexpensive upgrade on the power.  I think you will be presently surprised at what more that Rotel has to offer.  Nothing crazy priced.  Anticable has a very nice model 2 or 3 for not too much cash.  If you don't like it send it back for refund.  Plenty of other companies to choose from too.  I remember many years ago with my first integrated I tried the LEVEL 3 and I was shocked at the difference the cord made in dynamics, and all around better performance.  

Glad to hear your system is up and running and you're enjoying it!

My journey started 49 years ago and I'm happier now  more than ever.

Hope yours does too.

Hi forum friends,

First of all, thank you very much for all the advice, it really helped me a lot to choose my first amp. After consideration and more research along with trips to nearby hi-fi stores, I decided to combine my subwoofer and amp budget and choose the one that would fit right with the speakers with enough power for me not to want to change the amp for a while. I went with a used Rotel RA-1592MKII amp at a really good price. Being a beginner, I was really worried about damaging the speakers and I have peace of mind with this wattage. Having speakers boxed and waiting for choosing and finding the amp was quite hard but now with everything I am very content with the choices I made. I've been listening to music more attentively and playing genres that I rarely listened to before. It brought me back to my young days when I had fun 'discovering' new music. As per the sound, to my ears this setup works better with natural instruments, strings, vocals, rather than something that was created digitally, hip hop, electronic and etc. The sounds feel full-er with instruments and computer-generated sounds sound a bit empty. Also, I think I could use a subwoofer for more bass, but that's for later(I still enjoy most music without it, but for movies and electronic music, I think it could benefit from it). I connected a wiim mini and use this speaker for everything, (music, tv and movies.) The amp (Rotel RA-1592MKII) was very heavy but looks nice and is easy to use (though the remote... looks like it's from the 90s). This is my first setup so I don't have anything to compare it to, but I am happy with the sound that I am getting. Again thank you all for all the advice and comments, you guys helped tremendously.

Happy listening!

Hi jc, the best advice I can give you is to buy used on audiogon. You will immediately double your buying ability. My method is to look at the gear fitting my budget and needs (e.g., 100 watts) and when something catches my eye I immediately google reviews. I look for high praise and “it’s an incredible value.” There are a few other online marketplaces, but it’s the Wild West for honesty. I’ve never had a problem on audiogon. (I have an outstanding pair of speaker cables I’m selling if you’re interested.)

thanks, Chuck 

OP has bought himself some relatively high end speakers for his first purchase.  I don' think they'll be sorry but it is a bit like having a Lambo as your first car at 16.  

Those speakers are lovely but they require a substantial amplifier to power correctly. What you're being told is that amps that rate to double their wattage output from 8 ohms to 4 ohms generally have better capacity to pass current, which is what inefficient (doesn't mean bad sound...at all...my speakers are all inefficient ones) speakers need. 4 ohms means harder to drive. 

Receivers generally don't get close to doubling down.  Anything like that and you won't have any real idea of what those speakers can do! 

If your budget is modest, look for a used Bryston 3-- or 4--- model, or a Parasound A23, or similar.  Lots of used deals out there.  

Have fun!  It's a never ending journey! 

still on

2. Any other amp suggestions for the speakers in a similar price range?($500 ish)

check out prices up to $1200 if you are willing to buy used

https://speakerchoices.com

2. Just get a Buckeye Amp and you're set for life.

2. Just get a Buckeye Amp and you're set for life.

3. Get the cheapest copper cables you can get. I use 12G, but 14 or 16 are fine in most applications.

5. Ignore the snake oil. Power cables and expensive speaker cables actually do more harm than good. It's ALL marketing, supported by strong buyer confirmation bias and placebo affect. Don't buy in, literally.

btw don't be discouraged that the advice you get is here is that you won't get quality sound for $500. Time equals money and money equals time, if you do your research, you can prove them wrong. $500 can go a long way....

that NAD amp linked above is way overpriced, I saw it for $300 on shopgoodwill as well as on craigslist. Check out usaudiomart also.

You don’t need a zillion watts, unless you want to listen to music very loud. 50 Watts would be more than appropriate. You will find that the less watts, the better quality amplifier you’ll get for your money.

If you just want to start, go to shopgoodwill.com. For $10 you can buy a decent receiver or for a $100, you can buy nice vintage amps. (Newer amps may cost $2-300) They will be a perfect start, and you can flip the vintage amp and not lose money and buy a more serious amp later. The brands I have heard and trust and are reasonably priced: Rotel, NAD, Cambridge Audio, older Denons, Yamaha, Marantz, Musical Fidelity. Most of these are not the audiophile brands that people appreciate here (I am not an audiophile with my tiny budget) but they are good to start and not break the bank.

There is a lot of used adcom, Parasound, hafler amps as well out there, they are fantastic quality for under $500, if you enjoy the search, keep your eyes on these marketplaces. 

My number #1 rule when I buy cheap used stuff: what can I do with it when I no longer need it, do I mind if I am stuck with it...

Btw you have fantastic, quality speakers.

+1 @zlone  I would make an offer on this NAD amplifier enough below the asking price to cover shipping. 

I used to have one of these with inefficient KEF LS50s, it will drive those speakers no problem. NAD under specs their amps, powerwise they punch way above their weight, and the sonics are decent. 
 

I hesitant for this suggestion as it’s underpowered, but the sonics are great at it’s price point - Outlaw Audio RR2150 at 100/160wpc (8/4 ohm) here, but a used one on eBay for $495 here. Maybe enough for average volume, dunno. Otherwise, you’ll have to up your budget or settle for much lower sonic quality IF you can find something at that price point.

Sonics is dependent on your entire audio chain, best to avoid weak links.

I will expand a bit on the power vs ohms thing.

Watts is a measure of power, it is how we measure the amount of power we have to do some work, which in this case is move the driver cone in an out. little drivers in the tweeter require very little power to move, big cones used for bass are heavy and require alot of power to move.

We calculate watts as Amps*volts.

Ohm's Law is Volts = Amps*Resistance.

What this means is that when you divide the resistance of your speaker in half (go from 8ohm to 4ohm), the amperage has to double. 4 ohms is a very low resistance, very close to a dead short. An incandescent light bulb is about 9ohms, and consider how hot they get.  

I say all this to underscore why people are recommending an amp that can handle the low sensitivity of your low resistance speaker. Low sensitivity speakers can be very demanding on amps, and they can die.

I suggest that if you can not find your way into at the least a reputable ChiFi brand, see if you can round up an old receiver or even an AVR. These will usually have some circuit protection built in to protect your speakers in the even that the amp overheats.

I am glad I asked here, so many good opinions. Thank you all for the advice, think I understand much better than before. going to go through the book and deep dive one at a time. y'all are heroes. Thanks a lot!

Used peachtree integrated. 
 

best luck

That Wimm or whatever is barrel bottom crap. It doesn’t take more than a quick search to note that it can’t even get to its rated power, etc. Putting a 4ohm or lower load on it is asking for trouble. It is more for guys sitting near field with a small desktop/pc audio type of scenario.

I wouldn’t go any lower than a Yamaha R-N800A for an all in one box, amp+dac+streamer.

jc,

Also choice of speakers, and their sensitivity also has a direct correlation (again a generalization) to the type of amplifier and power from an amplifier is required.

A pair of Kllipsch Forte IVs are 99 db sensitive, and would have no problem driving them LOUD with a sub 25 WPC amplifier. Your Beonicke W5 SEs are 83/86 db, and would require 100 WPC (or more) to be driven sufficiently loud and still have steam for transients. That is not to knock your Beonicke speakers, by all accounts they seem to be excellent speakers (I've never heard them).....but understanding the amplifier and speaker relationship is important as you grow your system.

jc,

For your educational purpose only here, I cannot give you any recommendations for really inexpensive amplifiers.

Watts are not the only thing that need to be taken into consideration with amplifiers in general. Amps being delivered is also very important, as it allows for drops in impedance and "head room" for how music is actually delivered.....reserve power if you will. In some cases I would also say that amps are more important than watts, but most manufacturers don't post maximum current delivery.

Amplifiers with high current capability will usually be rated at 8 ohms (say 100 watts), and into 4 ohms (say 200 watts), and sometimes into 2 ohms (say 400 watts)......usually double, or nearly double the previous spec.

Amplifiers that cannot do that, usually are incapable of delivering high current. All watts are not created equally, or "watts are not just watts"; current delivery is also very important. 

Also note that higher current delivery, can generally be associated with more expensive gear (though no always). And please know, these are just generalities....there are always exceptions to the rule.

100 watts x 2 channels into 8 or 4 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.03% THD.  Would anything like this not work on my speakers because it is only 100w for 4 ohms? This is over my budget, but I still want to understand and learn.

It will work but it’s still underpowered for your speakers.  Something like this would likely be a better match for your speakers both sonically and because it puts out 150/270Wpc into 8/4 Ohms, respectively.  This is an amp that will let your speakers give you much more of what they’re capable of and that you could probably live with pretty happily until you can afford something significantly better.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285792371714

Thank you all for your kind expertise on this matter. I am glad that I asked here so that I don't do anything to damage the speakers (I would rather wait then to damage them). I will look into all of the options posted in the thread.

I will listen 90% from streaming and 10% from LP. My room size is 16’ x 10’ - and one of the 10’ walls is an open side to the kitchen for another 10’ x 12'. I will not be blasting music, since I have neighbors in my apartment building.

One question I have for amplifier powers is that some provide the same wattage for both 4 and 8 ohms, for example, NAD C 3050's power says

• 100 watts x 2 channels into 8 or 4 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.03% THD

Would anything like this not work on my speakers because it is only 100w for 4 ohms? This is over my budget, but I still want to understand and learn.

As per the username, it came from a place of frustration when everything I tried was already taken (a generic name I have), so I just typed my initial 12 times. Nothing religious or meaningful. But someone did comment on this thread earlier about it not being serious enough for people to comment on my questions, but you all did and I appreciate y'all looking past the 24 letters of my username:)

@jcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjc 

An audio chain usually consists of a source (turntable, digital DAC, FM tuner, tape), preamplifier (sometimes optional), amplifier, speakers.  An “integrated” amp has both a preamp+amp, and sometimes includes a DAC, streamer, phono stage (phono preamp).   If a digital source, you’ll need a streamer, a DAC, and a digital file source (CD/SACD disc, Tidal, Qobuz).  Analog you’ll need a turntable, tonearm, cartridge, and a phono preamp.  

Cabling we’d usually suggest at least replacing stock power cords with quality cabling at least to the level from Blue Jeans or Audio Envy, but may be outside of your budget.

Speaker efficiency determines the amount of amplification required by the amplifier.  Each 3db of change means a doubling of sound pressure. You can learn more about it here.  Average speakers are somewhat 87-low90s db, and efficient ones above that.   Unfortunately your speakers are less efficient and thus requires more power to drive which may include ample current needs also.

$500 is a very small amount, not much available at this price point, doubtful if you can get beyond box store sonics.  TAS (The Absolute Sound) annual list starts at $800 and goes to $150,000.  I doubt at this budget you’d get anything high end sounding.  Quality internal parts cost money, especially quality transformers.  Maybe if you can get your budget up something like a used Hegel integrated so you can hear what your speakers can do with quality amplification.

+1 the book “The Complete Guide to High/End Audio” by Robert Harley (editor in chief for The Absolute Sound magazine.  It’s like an illustrated detailed encyclopedia - no other publication comes close

 posted this in the wrong conversation

To get listening, while you search for a good deal, $135. amazon 30 day return, a no risk trial

120 wpc/4ohms

has dac

has sub out, to self powered sub(s), takes the bass load away from your inefficient mains

fosi dac 2120

find a good deal on something you really want: watch hifishark ’first seen, new first’ check every day, bang!

keep fosi for garage system .... give it away.

btw: listen; buy a returnable sub(s): which sounds better? keep or return sub(s).

I never knew it existed, certainly not heard one, a surprising review.

fosi review

Off topic, but curious if 12 pairs of jc has any significance

12 disciples maybe?

Off topic, but curious if 12 pairs of jc has any significance, or do you also need a new keyboard😏

I recommend getting The complete guide to high end audio by Robert Harley. An excellent source for learning about this great hobby. 

KnotScott asks good questions, but you have set a high bar for yourself by choosing such inefficient speakers. I would start with a Fosi ZA3 amp, which will give you a reliable clean power supply and can be bridged if more output is desired later. A WiiM Pro Plus will serve you well as a front end. World’s Best Cables are a lower priced equivalent to Blue Jeans, and in my experience (mostly with their Mogami interconnects) are dependably high performance. Get one of these too.

This solution will complement your diminutive speakers by being a tidy compact system of 2 components and a power brick.  Don't forget to get speaker stands as well.

@jcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjc 

Check out the Pine Tree integrated amp on US Audio Mart, slightly above your budget at $ 875 but would be an Integrated that will have enough clean power to really drive your speakers and isn’t one you’d have to upgrade too quickly, you could build off of it and upgrade if you really got the itch once you had everything else built out.  Has a DAC built in that is reviewed well, all you need is to provide a source.  Maybe the seller will give you a first time Audiophile discount. I tried posting the link but the site was blocking me from doing so. 
 

Cables,  don’t roll with Amazon, look at Pine Tree Audio, great, hand made cables that won’t break the bank but won’t need to be upgraded.  You can also find some EBay sellers that make their own cables, you can get some really well made cables made with quality materials for a really great price but you have to sift through and find the right vendors.

When you chose an amp / integrated, you’ll need to be selective as your speakers are harder to drive, it’s not all about watts but generally an amp that doubles Watts from 8 to 4 ohms and is rated to drive speakers throughout the range, your speakers dip, is key to letting your speakers shine and not burning out whatever amp you roll with. 
 

Good Luck. 

How big is your room, how loud do you want to play?

Those should have some excellent midrange clarity and sound stage, but aren’t likely to "rock the house" as-is....I’d want to put a nice tube amp on them to get the most from what they do best, then run a well matched active subwoofer to help where they don’t excel. .I’d give you’re current amp a whirl and see how it goes, but would likely consider the subwoofer even if I kept the amp. Your room will definitely come into the equation though.

One question, is there a reason why you are calculating for 8 ohms when the spec is Nom. impedance: 4 ohms?

Personally I’d want at least 200Wpc at 4 Ohms to handle the W5’s impedance dip(s), and to get that you’re gonna need to look at amps that are at least 100Wpc @ 8 Ohms as that’s the number you’ll more readily see without having to dig deeper into the specs. 
 

Here’s another all-in-one idea that if you can stretch for would likely serve you better than the Wiim Amp as it likely has a much better DAC and power supply and probably sounds better overall.  The USB input is limited to 24/96 but that should be more than fine for now.  Just another option FWIW.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649987921-bel-canto-c5i-integrated-amplifier/

There is an AG add from Listen up Audio for a Cambridge Audio 851 integrated amplifier at $650 with free shipping.  You may want to check this out. A review from Steriophile is available online. Use the Wiim as a source only. 

Take care of those Speakers, don't drive the amp too hard.

Thank you so much for your detailed response @soix. Really helps me a lot! One question, is there a reason why you are calculating for 8 ohms when the spec is Nom. impedance: 4 ohms? And would the calculation be that the amp needs to supply 200 watts per channel at 4 ohms (This speaker)?

Congrats on some great speakers!  That’s the good news.  The less good news is at 83-86dB sensitivity and 4 Ohm nominal impedance you’d want an amp that puts out at least 100 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms and basically double that into 4 Ohms.  Suffice it to say the Wiim Amp underpowered for the task.  In a perfect world you’d save for a more powerful amp, but I understand you really wanna at least hear the speakers with something.  The Wiim will probably work just to get some sound going, but you should avoid turning it up loud because the amp could produce clipping distortion that will at the least won’t sound good and at worst could damage your nice speakers.  In terms of cables, you could start with these as they’ve gotten some nice feedback here for the price and like the Wiim will at least let you get started.  You’ll probably also need an Ethernet cable to run from your router to the Wiim, and maybe someone else here will chime in with a cheap but decent option for that as well.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ5HCTM?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&amp=undefined&th=1

Positioning will be critical with these speakers, and these guys don’t like to be near walls to produce the imaging/soundstage magic they’re capable of so I hope you have the space/flexibility for that.  I’d have the backs of the speakers at least around four feet from the front wall and a similar distance from the side walls, and I think the designer prefers no toe in but you should check that.  Ok, hope this is a little helpful, and best of luck pulling this together.

Sorry, what does that have to do with anything?