Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@amir_asr Please do not bother the cable manufacturer.  We don't care how much air is injected into your system (who knows what that is as @kota asks) or how long the burn in is (about 24 hours) for your system.   You must be busy answering every forum where ASR is mentioned.  Too bad.

@amir_asr , you still have not posted your system, pics or measurements either, please stop spit balling. 

Thyname, very much appreciated, thanks. 

@millercarbon : welcome back! I just noticed

Laser…. Those. Photons are so heavy… but good test gear is $ … btw in wide use at speaker companies that care about… resonance and vibration….

Townshend has a couple videos that use a iPad running a seismic app that displays vibrations very well. This works great for speakers, but the iPad is too heavy for testing smaller isolation gear. I tried an iPhone app, even the iPhone is way too heavy. If anyone knows an affordable motion detector that is very light weight (ounce or two at most) please let me know, I would love to test the Cable Cradles.

@fleschler 

He's baaaack to instill his great knowledge over us.  I guess business is slow or he feels compelled to save his site (for us, against us, who knows)?   

Oh.  You had named ASR in your OP and lamented lack of measurements for cables so I thought I ask you about your cable to see how genuine you were in your thread started.

Since you have no measurements, do you have an idea of how much air it will inject into my system?  And the hours of burn in it requires to do that?

@dabel, I thought so but wanted to make sure others could follow the conversation as well.  

@amir_asr, your link provided I’ve likely read from start to finish & finish to start a half dozen times since inception. Make that seven now for its been a while.

@fleschler , do you think there's hope? Maybe he will start to participate instead of talk down to us.

He's baaaack to instill his great knowledge over us.  I guess business is slow or he feels compelled to save his site (for us, against us, who knows)?   

@amir_asr Or maybe, and I am just spit balling here,

Yes, you are

that the way audiophiles do listening tests with their eyes is wrong. Just do the darn test blind.

This is only true in ASR world where you expect someone buying a cable to have a panel of trained listeners and the proper testing conditions for a blind test. Good luck with that, you don’t even do proper blind testing on ASR and then want to throw spitballs at our members.... no.

Test a dozen times and see if you can tell the tweak has done anything. Don’t confuse people with these false conclusions.

You first :) Post your system in your system profile along with your in room frequency response graph and components. If you did double blind testing on any component you purchased please share, thanks.

Here is the link to the virtual systems page:

@dabel 

@amir_asr, any chance that Ranch invite to Sisters OR. happened some years ago. 

Steve's offer of visit was very kind.  But post my review, I am not sure the invite was still good.  :)

Seriously, we used to go to Sisters for quilt festival which my wife loved to attend.  Covid put a halt in that so we haven't been that way anymore.

I put the first one on the amp. It replaced a similarly priced well regarded cable. No contest. More air, better separation, more dynamic.

Why is it that all these tweaks always add "air?"  I mean if this were a tire, by now it would be blowing up with all that air pumped into it!!! 😁

And why did they build an air-less system to start before this tweak?  Did the designers of his system really forgot to put air in them?  It needed a new AC cable to put the air back in?

I mean the guy builds a half a million dollar system and then makes another tweak.  Bam!  The system now has more air.  Really?  Half a million dollar didn't get all the air you ever needed or wanted?

And what if the original music didn't have air in it to begin with?  Isn't it now full of air that doesn't belong there?

Or maybe, and I am just spit balling here, that the way audiophiles do listening tests with their eyes is wrong.  Just do the darn test blind.  Test a dozen times and see if you can tell the tweak has done anything.  Don't confuse people with these false conclusions.  

@fleschler 

As a beta tester for GroverHuffman cables, we have tried half a dozen Furutech A/C & IEC plugs over several decades.  We found that the more expensive ends tended to be brighter sounder with higher resolution and the lower end plugs maintain more body.  After trying many plugs from other companies, Grover found a Taiwan all copper plug that had good grip, excellent build qualities, a neutral sound resulting in great body and adequately high resolution to use with his power cables.  They cost less but sound (or lack of sound) great. 

So where are the measurements for that which you said in your OP products should come with?  Quoting you:

One would think that manufacturers used tests and measurements to design and construct their products. 

@coralkong 

"Then you got called out on GR’s channel (in the end......by name)."

Of course he does.  I point out when that his products don't perform with an array of tests.  Such as that cable that barely functions as a power cable.  While I have praised some of his products, he does produce some really, really bad ones:

He relies on his viewers knowing less about audio than him. Don't be that viewer....

As a beta tester for GroverHuffman cables, we have tried half a dozen Furutech A/C & IEC plugs over several decades.  We found that the more expensive ends tended to be brighter sounder with higher resolution and the lower end plugs maintain more body.  After trying many plugs from other companies, Grover found a Taiwan all copper plug that had good grip, excellent build qualities, a neutral sound resulting in great body and adequately high resolution to use with his power cables.  They cost less but sound (or lack of sound) great. 

Another point of view on th GR Research power cord from our member @abdodson 

I put the first one on the amp. It replaced a similarly priced well regarded cable. No contest. More air, better separation, more dynamic. Across the board better, significantly better. I quickly ordered two more, wondering how they would sound on my DAC (Lampizator Atlantic TRP) and CD transport (Sim Moon 260D). On the DAC the cable being replaced is almost 3 times the cost of the GR Research cable. Again, no contest at all. The GR Research cable wins hands down in every respect (the one caveat here, and I hesitate to mention it, is the soundstage is still a little messy. But this is with almost 100% certainty a break-in issue).

@amir_asr, any chance that Ranch invite to Sisters OR. happened some years ago. In particular, Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio and his updated Synchro-Mesh re-clocker powered with his Dynamo LPS, under his measurement conditions. Clearly if one attended, that would’ve come with the package deal. A Overdrive SX DAC, Off-Ramp 6 or Interchange Renderer, and Final Drives listen. Ring a bell?

Someone’s a little butt-hurt.

Isn’t this the review where you hook the $400 power cable into the $500 DAC, listen through headphones, measure the heck out of it, and then claim it makes no difference?

Then you got called out on GR’s channel (in the end......by name).

You’re a tool, man. The more you post on here, the less my opinion of you. You’re not a professional, you’re a wannabe. Try not to be butt-hurt, it’s unprofessional. "Desperately clinging to the straws of credibility."

You’re certainly entitled to hook up and measure whatever you want, and report whatever "findings" you come up with.

I just hope people can see through it.

"Pearls before swine."

@holmz 

I would make my own power before I considered GR Research…

Good for you!  That youtube channel is a sales channel.  Sometimes there is good technical info but at all times, the aim is to sell, sell, and sell.  On the topic of power cables from them, best to stay far, far away.  See my review of his cable:

 Not only does it not provide audible benefit, it is pain in the neck to use as well!

What it boils down to is "soul".

You can’t measure, nor quantify "soul" with a MM or an oscilloscope.

You’ve either got it, or you don’t.

I like my way better.

holmz RF EM noise in the house can be detected with RF analyzer

@westcoastaudiophile is there a link for those?  I assumed it is like an o-scope…

Would it make sense to determine if one had RF, or to measure using cable-A and cable-B to see if it was reduced?
Or do people just chuck in the cables.
(Some of the cable seem a bit costly for trail and error work.)

@holmz RF EM noise in the house can be detected with RF analyzer

Dear @fleschler  : " specs and measurements of cables and tweaks which are rare among high end products. "

Yes, you are rigth because with cables there is almost no single spec. LFD cables has a very high tag price over 18K and a gentleman asked directly to LFD for some specific cable specs and the manufacturer posted: " the proff is in the lestening ", obviously that LFD has no single spec on it's cables or those specs are so wrong that they just does not disclose it.

On the tweacks exist a lot of " sneak oil " items as the fancy capacitors and several other audio items where the manufacturers always say " you can have an improvement/enhance " when there is nothing that can make a real enhance/improvement to the original sound signal, every additional step where the ignal must pass through the best that can do it is to " degrade " the signal but with no true improvement. Could sound different but not better.

Anyway, I get your point,

R.

Yes, I mentioned many of those manufacturer specs which gives adequate information to mate equipment. However, cartridge frequency response test measurements are important to those who can easily ascertain the sound based on variance(s) from flat frequency responses.   A Koetsu sound envelope is easily discerned from a Lyra and both from a Dynavector based on the test grid.  

This forum is directed more to the need for specs and measurements of cables and tweaks which are rare among high end products. Commonly used professional gear generally have in depth and ample specs based on manufacturer test measurements.

Dear @fleschler  :  " However, the query remains as to why don’t manufacturers supply their own test measurements and depend on reviewers? "

Normally manufacturer specs are not a manufacturer " fake ", normally all them made measuremets test from those specs came.

So, in reality no one audiophile/customer really needs those " measurements " to make his choices.

Specs are important to know if a cartridge can be handled by my phonolinepreamp gain or if the weigth/compliance cartridge specs could mate good with my tonearm.

Same when we are trying to mate speaker/amp where at least we need to know the speaker sensitivity along the amp rated power speaker nominal impedance and speaker crossover discrete frequencies.

What need we to know about any TT no matters its kind of drive? obviously its speed stability specs, there are other important TT specs around but the main one is that SS.

When we talk about phono stages main specs are: inver RIAA eq. FR deviation, noise level, gain level and if it's a high gain active or passive design.

When we need a SUT: FR bandwidth and gain are the main specs.

And we can go and go about. Almost all manufacturers give us their audio item specs that if we know to " read " it can tell us the quality level of the audio item design.

To have the charts of those specs do not helps me because you can make 3 times the same measurements with 3 cartridge samples or with 2 monoblocks amps or speakers or what audio item you imagine and you will find out that all the measurements are not exactly/accurated in between the same amp, speaker, cable, cartridge and the like.

So why to worry about? what we need is not measurements but SPECS.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NO DISTORTIONS,

R. 

Too much Roo Poop in your ears to hear a difference.

must me that the sound is too nuanced? I know a Nobel Prize is. 

Please try to stay on topic..,,. The topic is “manufacturers and measurements.”

It is not about marsupials, nor distribution of money made from dynamite sales.

or at least share with us what you’re drinking, in order to put the comments in context.

Too much Roo Poop in your ears to hear a difference.

must me that the sound is too nuanced? I know a Nobel Prize is. 

I don't care what the measurements say, I care what my system can do in my room with my ears.

kota1 - thanks for posting cable study paper link!

that “ paper “ captures most of important IC parameters for passive circuits. unfortunately, audio system is more complex than that, and has sources and receivers built of active circuits. active circuits can add “audible” ringing to the signal, if cable parameters push circuit phase margin below targeted value. EMI/RF noise also can be audible, because not all sensitive amplifiers have enough high frequency noise rejection, to withstand modern days RF noise in our living spaces. depending on modulation technique, RF noise can be heard as additional “unexplained" noise affecting SQ. phono-pre could be a good example of sensitive active circuit usage, and therefore it is very hard to find good match between cartridge, cable, and phono-pre, to achieve excellent SQ. 

Does that RF show up with an o-scope?
Or in IM components?
Or in a raised noise floor?

holmz Guess it is to nuanced, The Nobel Prize.

Must be a Down Under thing? 

@jerryg123 usually I blame the spell checker, but in this case the ‘o’ and the ‘i’ are adjacent to each other and I typed it in wrong… but it looked so good, it was not worth correction.

By the way it should be, “too nuanced”.

@fleschler , the enraged cannot be calmed by any type of proof, let alone scientific proof. Can you imagine our "scientific" guest being shown proof and exclaiming, "OK, you are right, I am wrong, sorry" Not gonna happen, heads will explode.

The point of science is that anyone who wants to check the data can conduct the same experiment, under the same conditions, and get the same result. The vast majority of enraged posters you see here and on other forums won’t do that because OMG, what if they are....wrong?!?!

The one paper I posted on improving your in room listening response states the obvious. Listeners prefer a flat smooth frequency response in the room. I would start there BEFORE you try testing and hearing a difference in your components.

@jerryg123

So question, are @fair and ​​​​@crymeanaudioriver the same?

No.

@kota1  Yes, that is the sad situation.  Possibly 100,000s of audio enthusiasts believe the same way although some  may not have adequate resolving systems to distinguish one cable from another (or other mismatched equipment problems, room problems).

I had to "prove" to my neighbor that his Pangea power cables were ruining his potentially high end sound.  I did not say I was certain that was the cure for his extremely ragged frequency bass response and his other sonic ailments, but he was open to it and it worked with just one cable to his amp (times six cables=he has a high end "sounding" system now).  Totally flummoxed (and now ecstatic) for a former electrical engineer who had believed the opposite-power cables don't matter.  

Anytime someone says where's the scientific proof that all cables sound the same, I'll send them your article.  

So question, are @fair and ​​​​@crymeanaudioriver the same?

@fleschler , it is sad that the sites and people that are attacking the manufacturers have built their brand on promoting misinformation. It isn’t limited to just one person or site either. These reviewers/critics have misled tons of people in order to promote themselves as an industry watchdog. Maybe they simply started out with good intentions and now they are trapped and if they change their "tune" how do they apologize for giving their followers a bum steer? Thus the rage continues and if anyone wants the truth you have to rely on your own ears, your room, using free trials that vendors provide to build good will and expand their brand.

If anyone insists on controlled testing at home then get this, but I don't think it is necessary. If I am buying something the difference should be obvious:

@kota1 Thank you for the proof that cabling differences in an audio system can be discerned by average listeners with no special experience in music or audio.  How much more likely is it that trained musicians and recording/remastering engineers like my friends and I will be able to hear a difference, especially if that difference is extremely significant?  (Rhetorical) .  

Amir and most of ASR "members" deny this is a valid statement despite the scientific (blind testing even) paper proving this to be true.  
 

This is a paper that was in the references that really resonated with my own experience, "The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems". You can’t get an ideal result using just equalization/DSP, it is very limited in what it can correct. Obsessing about what DSP software comes with your processor or receiver is not as important as treating your room. 35 years of studies show listeners prefer a flat, smooth frequency response accompanied by well behaved off axis response.

I was able to get the best frequency response in my room with room treatments and DSP in combination. Without getting the in room response as smooth as possible I don’t know how you can get the best experience from the money spent on components.

The measurement and calibration of sound reproducing systems

@jerryg123 +1👍

@kota1 thanks for the post on the Audio Lab product. 

@holmz Guess it is to nuanced, The Nobel Prize.

Must be a Down Under thing? 

Just having some fun. 

 Those people could train evangelicals.
Someone could get a Nobel prose if they could measure this stuff. 

@westcoastaudiophile In my experience you don’t notice the amount of RF noise in your system until you remove it and then you are like WOW. So many companies dealing with this problem and all of them taking a slightly different tact. It will never be perfect and to your point, trial and error is a process that can take time and $$$. I decided to address it as best I can. Here is another paper you might enjoy that discusses "perceived" sound quality. Check fig 5 on page 408 to see the RFI difference between the two cables in the study. If you want to go deeper I go through the bibliography and read the supporting research that interests me:

"This work shows that two system configurations differing only by the interconnect pathway are audibly discernable, even by average listeners with no special experience in music or audio." (4. Conclusions pg 409)

Cable pathways between audio components can affect perceived sound quality

@kota1 - thanks for posting cable study paper link!

that “ paper “ captures most of important IC parameters for passive circuits. unfortunately, audio system is more complex than that, and has sources and receivers built of active circuits. active circuits can add “audible” ringing to the signal, if cable parameters push circuit phase margin below targeted value. EMI/RF noise also can be audible, because not all sensitive amplifiers have enough high frequency noise rejection, to withstand modern days RF noise in our living spaces. depending on modulation technique, RF noise can be heard as additional “unexplained" noise affecting SQ. phono-pre could be a good example of sensitive active circuit usage, and therefore it is very hard to find good match between cartridge, cable, and phono-pre, to achieve excellent SQ. 

@russ69 if you are in Socal here is a list of dealers:

http://www.laaudiofile.com/dealers.html

@kota1

@russ69 , contact The Audio Tailor , a dealer in Australia, and see if they carry products you can audition:

@russ69 has provided information recently that he is domiciled in SoCal.

That outfit is in Queensland.

"I’m Kevin, I’m from Queensland, and I’m here to help."

@kota1

This is an excellent study of analog interconnects used in audio. First, note its from a peer reviewed journal, Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering. Next, note that the author IS a scientist and has received many awards such as CASE and Carnegie US Professor of the Year. Finally, note the extensive (45) references that are listed in the bibliography. The author doesn’t post a video of himself to try and promote his own study.

The fact that this paper proves the videos and research you often see (in this thread from newer guest members) are inaccurate and incomplete is fine. You do what you can with what you got, but please don’t be so irksome about it. Please enjoy this third party, peer reviewed research from an actual award winning, highly respected scientist

An electrical study of single-ended analog interconnect cables

Interesting study indeed. What it showed that one needs to use a square pulse with duration of ~1.5 microseconds to see the cables reacting significantly differently. I submit that such a pulse doesn’t faithfully represent a typical audio signal.

However, one can imagine sources of such pulses in a line-level audio cable:

(1) Sloppy filtering and isolation of the reconstructed signal by a DAC. Ideally, the DAC ought to get rid of out-of-band frequency components (let’s say down to -100 db), and also isolate its internals from the output connector by using some kind of a voltage amplifier or follower stage.

(2) Interference from external sources. Digital devices, specifically, are known to use square pulses to encode information: it can be computers, Ethernet devices, WiFi, mobile phones. Ideally, such devices ought to be carefully shielded and placed far enough away from audio equipment.

However, life is imperfect. A DAC may be overly simplified, or using components, such as capacitors, with out of design range specs, due to cost cutting. Aging of components may play its role too. Digital devices could radiate more electromagnetic radiation than expected, for various reasons.

In such dicey situations, a better shielded, beefier, more uniform cable can indeed to some degree ameliorate audible issues stemming from unfiltered DAC residuals, the EMI, and RFI. Then we’ll hear audible differences.

Testing cables under conditions close to ideal like Amir does - DAC is well-designed and well-built, there is no significant EMI and RFI in the vicinity - may show no audible difference.

I could have chosen a CD player instead of separates if I could have heard them.  I live in Los Angeles area yet could not listen for example to the highly regarded Luxman D-03x player in my home.  I read that many Luxman owners sold/traded in their more expensive older players for it.  The three dealers within 150 miles told me I could hear it at their store only or purchase it.   Retail it's $4000.   I just didn't want to shell out that much.  I noticed a few nearly new units sold for $2800.  I didn't want to lose at least $1600 (w/tax) on a new unit just to try it.   Another dealer of a $14,000 VAC IQ 200 amp would let me try it for a $1,000 fee, included in the sale price if I purchased it.  Percentage-wise, that was fair, especially since it is a much more expensive, heavy (100+lbs shipped), delicate unit (tubed) and included insured shipping cost to me.   I've gotten to the point that I want to check out equipment in my room with my system before purchasing unless it is inexpensive.  After nearly a dozen units, I finally found a great sounding transport so I lost interest in purchasing an all in one player.  

@westcoastaudiophile @fleschler Thanks, guys. As I wrote, it was an experience I will never forget, and we had the opportunity to play with many other "famous" bands over the few years we were together. (I was in college and learned over time that the best way to put a band together was to go to the music department and put up a sign. Duh!)

Anyway, when I opened my store (1976), I had the opportunity to LISTEN to pretty much all the "good" stuff out in those days. After the store closed for the day, we hooked up everything to everything just to see what was what. TRULY an education I would never have gotten in any other way.

The ARC-Maggie systems were SO FAR superior to everything else that we were quite surprised to say the least. ALL the boxes distorted in some way--I know they have improved since then--and, also surprisingly, many are 6’ tall now...wonder where they got THAT idea? Hmmmm...

Anyway, how it SOUNDS IN YOUR ROOM was our watchword. We sold many brands and of course, not every room was appropriate nor could every customer afford that combo, thus we sold what the customer liked, naturally. (Best box back then was the Fulton 100, by the way. Small, but really good!)

I have been out of the business for many years, but still have an ARC-Maggie system (not the newest stuff--I am retired now on a fixed income), but I dare say that I seldom hear systems that are more realistic (closest to how the music sounds live) than that combo if your room is amenable. I don’t know why anyone would spend ANY money on a system that they did not like the SOUND of in their room regardless of the brand or price.

Cheers!

@westcoastaudiophile +10