My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

Hey Jay,
Just wondering if you have any future plans to bring in some more affordable amps and preamps to see how they sound in your current system?

I plan to do a four way amplifier shootout. This will be ONLY amps under $30,000 msrp..

jays_audio_lab OP 5,311 posts 06-17-2018 at 01:12pm

If your source is a crappy 2,000 dollar dac or an oppo bluray 205 to feed it music, you might as well don’t buy this.

Ouch. My DACs are all in the range of $2k.

You're worried about a comment that I made over 4 years ago.... You got a lot of reading to do... Hundredths of pages 

Some people were complaining about the background music  on this part of the video so here is the video without the music

Well, I'd like to be the first one to congratulate Jay for 13k subscribers to his YouTube channel.  I know it's been a lot of hard work to get there.....hoping the next 13k will be a little easier.  Thanks Jay

Thanks for the support everyone. More great things to come soon! 

Vandersteen amp??

@ron17 I am glad to see the discussion of "air." I have lived most of my live in New Orleans where I married into a family of jazz musicians. My wife's uncle and his brother would play outside and inside of the home on holidays. I have long thought that what audiophiles consider "air" is an artifact. I don't hear it in live unamplified music, and I have heard a lot of that. I lived in the French Quarters also for about 5 years. On Frenchman St, away from the junk on Bourbon Street, there would be live street performers that I often heard. I hear highs, sometimes strident when flutes and trumpets are played. But that "air" is missing. I think the "air" that audiophiles love so much is an artifact or distortion.

bulldogger,

"Air" is a nonmusical terminology.  The proper way to describe sound is tone, perceived freq balance, and other musical characteristics.  The best live sound I ever heard was at Preservation Hall in New Orleans in 2005 before Katrina.  I bet you know that place well.  All the bench seats are very close to the stage.  The sound crackles with excitement, nothing is laid back.  I also love street musicians, whose sound is not spoiled by concert hall acoustical reverberations, etc.  There is plenty of direct sound with lots of energy at all freq.  No "air" but the sound breathes with freedom.  The "air" in a mid hall concert seat is actually smearing and blur from reverb.

On vacations, I have enjoyed random street sounds, such as the bells from the trolley cars.  There is no "air" but lots of coherent upper midrange/HF energy which startles.  

Well folks, this final part concludes the Magico Factory Tour. I want to thank Alon and his team for being great hosts. This video is 43 min long so sit back and enjoy. 

Alon will answer many questions that he has never answered before on camera. I think this will be quite interesting for many of you. As always, thank you for the support which is much needed in order for me to keep pushing forward harder than ever!

Jay

@bulldogger

I agree with you on your assessment of audiophile 'air'.  I have heard many systems with a lot of upper register energy which I suppose would be considered air around the vocals and instruments.  At first listen it sounds nice and detailed, but after further listening, it becomes fatiguing and hi fi sounding to me.  When I hear live unamplified music I also don't hear the extra energy in the upper registers.  I went from YG speakers to Magico M series speakers not long ago.  With the M series beryllium tweeters I was worried they would be too bright and forward.  They ended up being the opposite.....less energy 'air' in the upper registers than my YG's yet more detailed and less hi fi sounding.  After my ears got used to the Magico's, I could never go back to a speaker with a top up presentation.  I now understand what Alon was saying about 'air' being a distortion or artifact of the tweeter.  Some may not agree with him and still prefer the additional top end energy and that's OK.....to each their own.

@viber6 If you pick up an old post card of the Preservation Hall Jazz band , you’ll find both my wife’s grandfather and uncle☺Preservation-Hall-Jazz-Band.jpg (1600×1072) (musicforgood.tv)

Jay, is really doing a superb job! I have to hear Magico speakers. Way out of my budget but I’d love them. The whole factory tour has been awesome. I am impressed by Magico.

nice video!!

ron17,

As I said before, live unamplified music from a distance has much less HF energy than the music close up.  That is a fact agreed on by knowledgeable listeners. You LIKE the more distant sound, but there is nothing hifi about the close up sound.  You just don't value hearing more details in the music that you would get sitting close, but it is incorrect to call the close sound hifi.  The only way I get fatigued from close sound is if it is too loud, whether it is live or from a system trying to reproduce it accurately.

Go to Preservation Hall to hear great, detailed sound, or sit on or near the stage near where you live.  This can be done at student concerts which may have lots of empty seats both close and further away from the stage.  I have lots of experience being disappointed with my 10th row seat that I wanted to walk out, but the music fog was lifted when I got much closer and could then appreciate every aspect of the music much more.

Do you LIKE homogenized mumbled speech more than clear, distinct speech?  The former is akin to distant sound, the latter is akin to close sound with full freq content.  

viber, I said   "I have heard many systems with a lot of upper register energy which I suppose would be considered air around the vocals and instruments.  At first listen it sounds nice and detailed, but after further listening, it becomes fatiguing and hi fi sounding to me."

I'm talking about home systems I have heard that are fatiguing due to a tipped up tonal balance.  I appreciate your desire for utmost clarity and HF information, but I prefer a smoother frequency response in my home system.  If you feel the need to discuss further, PM me....I guess

Interesting part 3 with Alon.  I get how bass reproduction is demanding and costly to eliminate boxy resonances.  Does a SOTA speaker have to go down to 20 Hz?  That depends on your preferred music that you want to reproduce.  How about Alon's current favorite instrument, classical guitar?  The acoustic guitar goes down to E at 80 Hz (ron17, you play guitar, am I correct, or does it go down to E at 40 Hz)?  Most other classical instruments don't go down below 40 Hz.  The grand piano reaches 27.5 Hz, but very little classical music for piano goes that low.  

So a smaller speaker that is flat to 40 Hz can be SOTA for 99% of classical/jazz music.  I bet Alon could come up with a SOTA speaker that would be optimized for 40-20 kHz that would better the performance of the M9 in that freq range.  The M9 is much more expensive because of the choice to have very deep and powerful bass.  How about such a statement speaker for $200-300K in the still wide 40-20kHz range?

Similarly, the S7 was designed for bass freaks, according to daveyf.  The S5 has 1 woofer instead of 2 for the S7.  It still goes pretty low, and probably is really the best speaker in the S series in most of the freq range.  Still, Alon points out that despite his goals of maximum transparency, with SOTA measurements, voicing is still required.  Voicing is in effect judicious EQ by design of the whole speaker, including crossover networks.  

Quick preview of my next video 

Finally finished interview video. Wealth of information. Alon is a pleasure to listen to and the interview had a nice cadence to it. Great work facilitating and thanks for sharing.

While I have never owned Magico but have a preference for closed ’box’ designs, may need to try out. Or at least make the drive to have a listen.

His comment that it isn’t his place to tell another person how music should sound was particularly interesting to me.

I agree with Jerry's assessments.  He has had extensive exposure to live acoustic music as well as amplified sound in clubs, etc.  Like me, he knows the snap and startle of live acoustic music and finds that the S7 most accurately reproduces it compared to M3.  The 3 10" woofers of the S7 are mathematically equivalent in air moving capacity to a single 14.4" woofer.  How can a 14.4" woofer have the best bass impact he has ever heard in a room like this?  I believe that the bass impact is enhanced in quality by the superbly accurate midrange and HF drivers, the non resonant cabinet and crossover design of the S7.  These higher freq convey the overtones of natural bass instruments.  Also important are the accuracy of the Boulder, Stromtank, MSB dac.

My skinny electrostatic speaker panels cannot reproduce any deep bass, but I get plenty of mid bass information due to the high accuracy of midrange/HF overtones which contribute to the realism of all instruments.

@rbach

I went from YG speakers to Magico M series speakers not long ago. With the M series beryllium tweeters I was worried they would be too bright and forward. They ended up being the opposite.....less energy ’air’ in the upper registers than my YG’s yet more detailed and less hi fi sounding. After my ears got used to the Magico’s, I could never go back to a speaker with a top up presentation.

Same here (not M but A ). I hope keithr is reading this ;)

I agree with the above as well. The first time I heard TAD E-1s, I couldn't get them out of my head. About 3-4 months later, I brought them home with the matching preamp/dac and amp. "more detailed and less hi fi sounding" for sure. I love the detail and musicality of this setup, it lets me listen as long as I have time for.

I've heard beryllium tweeters in other setups and didn't like them (no, not going to name them). As with everything else, implementation is key. For me, TAD do it wonderfully.

@viber6

Not sure I understand the math that made 3 10’s equivalent to one 14.4"? I typically talk "cone area", but you mentioned air moving capacity - maybe that’s different than just cone area.

Anyway, with regards to cone area, the three 10’s have a bit more cone area than two 12’s. And, there are two speakers, so we have a total of 6 10’s - the equivalent of more than four 12’s. That total cone area will move a lot of air and give a good thump.

I agree though with what you said about the accurate midrange and HF drivers, as well as the cabinet design, as contributing factors to the excellent bass.

Dave

Here's my math.  Think volume of the cone, rather than area.  Volume of the cone would correlate best with volume of air moved by the cone.  To simplify the numbers, 10 to the 3rd power is 1000.  Three cones is 3000, then the cube root of 3000 is about 14.4.  

We live in a 3D world.  A tumor which is 1 cm in diameter has X number of cells.  If the tumor doubles in diameter to 2 cm, then the number of cells has become 8X.  That's a dangerous deterioration.  Most layman think the number of cells has only doubled to 2X, but that is a big underestimation of the danger.

Math is fun.  Take the two 12's.  12 to the 3rd power is 1728. So two 12's is 3456, more than the 3000 for three 10's.  So two 12" woofers move more air than three 10" woofers.  But which is more accurate, with tight, controlled bass?  We don't want boomy powerful bass that teenagers like.  We want a decent amount of power, but most important for musical understanding is tight bass.  Larger woofers don't need as much excursion as smaller woofers to get the same SPL, so it may be easier to control the larger woofer.  However, the smaller woofer is lower mass, so it could be more accurate and nimble.  That may explain Alon Wolf's design choice for the S7 for enough bass, but higher accuracy.  

Still, it is a good question whether area or volume of a driver determines air moving capacity.  I wonder how much bass can be produced by flat drivers which have much less volume than cones with the same area.  Probably much less, since the air moved by the flat driver is easily lost out the sides.

In reverse, think of a baseball catcher's mitt.  It is a concave basket designed to catch a fast ball.  Suppose you tried a flat, planar mitt.  The ball would bounce off that mitt.  So I think a basket is the proper design for the mitt, and in the case of the woofer, volume is the applicable criterion.

Stay safe from the hurricane WC

@kren0006 +1

Yes, take care Jay

Agreed - stay safe WC!   One of my employees is in Palm Bay, and it's supposed to hit them at 8am EST tomorrow.

Dave

Yes stay safe and thoughts to all in its wake

The hurricane track is a good distance away from Miami, so hopefully Jay has been spared serious effects.

Thanks for the wishes.  We didn't get the full impact of the storm but did get tons of rain and tornadoes. 

Ok guys , the shootout will commence soon and this video will present the competitors and their specifications plus how this shootout will take place. 

How about using the Stromtank 2500 for the amps as well as in the source and preamp?  If you play each song at average SPL of 82 dB, the power amps won't be taxed, and the S2500 should be able to handle the entire system.  Do you have the S5000?

Shootout has been done and recorded. Amps will be plugged into regular outlet and on stock powercords. I don’t want to start adding more variables because who else has a stromtank? ( Not many) so why add the stromtank to the amps ? Why add 10k POWERCORDS on the amps ? I simply inserted each amp into my system and then report back. 

The more "raw" we insert the amp into the system, the more we know of what it really adds or subtracts. 

Thought the description of the amps and methods for the shoot out were well done in the intro video .

Separately, my iphone has never sounded better listening to the ‘short’ videos today. lol but serious

One observation is the headroom of the S7s, seems to not have been maxed out yet. I feel this way about the ygs sonja 2.2is, but I am obviously biased

How much better did the M9s sound than the ‘best’ in your room to date Jay? Talk to us. We know u will, no rush of course.

Another idea is to see which amp is favored and by how much over the other two.  Then use this favored amp with and without the Stromtank.  The S2500 costs roughly the same as any of the amps, so it would be interesting to hear how much of an improvement the S2500 makes, compared to the differences among the amps.

Shootout plan sounds great.  Looking forward to it.  Good choice of amps

I confess I wish you had decided to add a McIntosh MC462 to the mix (no, I don’t own one). At slightly less than one-half the price of both the Moon and the Luxman amps, I wonder whether it is only half as good. Certainly, it is a popular choice for those who seek to own a high powered, good quality stereo amplifier.

I agree but i unfortunately don't have access to it. That said, it's always possible in the future 

Ok folks, It is YOUR TIME TO SHINE!

Please select your favorite amplifier under $30k and DO NOT FORGET TO VOTE by clicking on the link here:

Here is the video:

@jmeyers 

Agree, The McIntosh MC462 is one hell of an amp.  But, people seem to have their preconceived notions about McIntosh.  

It’s neutral, powerful, and looks great.

After listening several times on two computers, they are all pretty close.  Forced to decide, I prefer amp #1 which has leaner bass and midrange than #2 and #3.  Maybe #3 is my next choice, and #2 the last.  #1 could be the Simaudio.  I bet the difference between the winner alone and the winner with the Stromtank is much greater than the differences among all three amps as presented, so I hope Jay does a shootout with the Stromtank on the entire system vs without the Stromtank.

Sorry but have had the McIntosh MC462 in my system and it was the most uninvolved amp I've ever tried YMMV

Honestly I was hoping for some different flavors, rather than the same brands yet agian in Jay’s lab. something like the Audia Flight, CH Precision or Solution would have been awesome…just sayin.

I think this (more affordable) amp shootout is fun.  Jay's been doing ultra high end for quite a while now (Boulder, Gryphon, VAC),  I find it refreshing.  As far as my picks in the first round, I preferred amp #2, #3 then #1...ranked from best to very good.  Jay's gear elevated all 3 amps for sure and they all sounded good.  It's no surprise to me that I chose the exact opposite of viber.  Absolutely no knock on viber,  we seem to have completely different preferences.  I'm guessing my choices might be different listening in Jay's room.  I've owned a Simaudio amp for over 5 years, so I'm looking forward to seeing which one it was.  Thanks for the shootout Jay, I know it's a lot of work for you.

My preferences were #2, 3, and #1 as well.